Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, 05:56 Michael Torrie,  wrote:

>
> My mistake. I see now that it was something you forwarded to the list
> from someone else.
>
> Doesn't change my reply, though.  Whoever said it, it's not very
> relevant.  Who's "us" and what is it the Python gives them that Julia
> will soon take over?
>

Don't worry about it, that's how Python lists are. There's an unwritten law
that tells whatever thread you start, folks around have the ability to
teleport the conversion to higher realms. Here is a Julia ending, another
one ended with running Python in the browser. That got me scratching my
head as to what i started and what folks end up talking about.

>
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Michael Torrie]

On 1/6/20 6:33 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> No, i did not write that, it's not Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote rather

My mistake. I see now that it was something you forwarded to the list
from someone else.

Doesn't change my reply, though.  Whoever said it, it's not very
relevant.  Who's "us" and what is it the Python gives them that Julia
will soon take over?

Python is lots of things to lots of different people.  I'm not surprised
it fits some people's needs more than others.  Julia is a fine language
and I encourage the original poster to explore it if it fits his or her
needs.
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

No, i did not write that, it's not Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote rather

-- Forwarded message -
From: *AAKASH JANA* 
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 21:15
Subject: Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft
To: Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer 

Please forward it to aakashjana2...@gmail.com

On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, 01:21 Michael Torrie,  wrote:

> On 1/6/20 10:24 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> > Maybe but if you know or have heard of Julia the language. You will
> realise
> > its going to take over what python gives us. So i think there is urgent
> > need for upgrades to newer versions of python to make basic tasks on
> python
> > way quicker.
>
> No it sure won't.  You can't possibly make such a blanket statement.
> Julia might replace python for some users, perhaps those involved in
> data science, but Python stands on its own merits. And currently that
> standing is pretty good.  If that changes in the future, oh well.
> Languages come and go.  Besides all that, if some users find Julia fits
> their need better, why is that a bad thing?  You talk like it's a zero
> sum game. It's not.  I don't see where this urgency is coming from.
>
> Put in another way, Python fills the needs of many users at present.
> This isn't going to magically change because you see something that is
> deficient in your opinion.
>
>
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>
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Michael Torrie]

On 1/6/20 10:24 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> Maybe but if you know or have heard of Julia the language. You will realise
> its going to take over what python gives us. So i think there is urgent
> need for upgrades to newer versions of python to make basic tasks on python
> way quicker.

No it sure won't.  You can't possibly make such a blanket statement.
Julia might replace python for some users, perhaps those involved in
data science, but Python stands on its own merits. And currently that
standing is pretty good.  If that changes in the future, oh well.
Languages come and go.  Besides all that, if some users find Julia fits
their need better, why is that a bad thing?  You talk like it's a zero
sum game. It's not.  I don't see where this urgency is coming from.

Put in another way, Python fills the needs of many users at present.
This isn't going to magically change because you see something that is
deficient in your opinion.


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Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

-- Forwarded message -
From: AAKASH JANA 
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 21:15
Subject: Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft
To: Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer 


Maybe but if you know or have heard of Julia the language. You will realise
its going to take over what python gives us. So i think there is urgent
need for upgrades to newer versions of python to make basic tasks on python
way quicker.

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 10:39 pm Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer  On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 20:46 Rhodri James,  wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm an embedded systems programmer.  Congratulations, you have just
> > rendered your draft utterly irrelevant to me and those like me.
> >
>
> If you followed the previous thread there was some misunderstanding as to
> what do i mean by executable, sorry.
>
> >
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>
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 21:01 Chris Angelico,  wrote:

>
> Don't worry. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, in a
> platform-specific way, imitating a completely different execution
> model, and ultimately is just reinventing what pip already does. You
> can safely ignore it for plenty of reasons besides the misuse of
> "executable".
>


Hum it proposes to enhance zipapp, well, pip has it's use and i don't think
package managers are a replacement for zip archives.

>
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 20:46 Rhodri James,  wrote:

>
> I'm an embedded systems programmer.  Congratulations, you have just
> rendered your draft utterly irrelevant to me and those like me.
>

If you followed the previous thread there was some misunderstanding as to
what do i mean by executable, sorry.

>
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 18:37 o1bigtenor,  wrote:

>
> Maybe I'm just slow but it really seems like what you are trying to
> achieve is
> a java like system.
>
> Wouldn't you find it easier to just use java rather than trying to remake
> Python into Java? (It would be easier imo.)
>

It proposes to enhance zipapp but included relevent info to pull in ideas

>
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:47 AM Rhodri James  wrote:
>
> On 06/01/2020 10:21, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> > Before we begin, we'd like to define the term executable used in the context
> > of this draft. It means an archive that is run by double-clicking.
>
> I'm an embedded systems programmer.  Congratulations, you have just
> rendered your draft utterly irrelevant to me and those like me.
>

Don't worry. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, in a
platform-specific way, imitating a completely different execution
model, and ultimately is just reinventing what pip already does. You
can safely ignore it for plenty of reasons besides the misuse of
"executable".

ChrisA
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Rhodri James]

On 06/01/2020 10:21, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:

Before we begin, we'd like to define the term executable used in the context
of this draft. It means an archive that is run by double-clicking.


I'm an embedded systems programmer.  Congratulations, you have just 
rendered your draft utterly irrelevant to me and those like me.


--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[o1bigtenor]

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 4:23 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
 wrote:
>
> Note: Prepared a draft on the previous discussion, motivated by the vision
> of
> an era where the world swarms in Python apps. This draft is not a PEP, at
> least
> not yet. It's structure approaches a PEP but takes liberties as necessary.
> It
> includes info deemed as essential. Thanking list members for their input.
>


Maybe I'm just slow but it really seems like what you are trying to achieve is
a java like system.

Wouldn't you find it easier to just use java rather than trying to remake
Python into Java? (It would be easier imo.)
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Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Note: Prepared a draft on the previous discussion, motivated by the vision
of
an era where the world swarms in Python apps. This draft is not a PEP, at
least
not yet. It's structure approaches a PEP but takes liberties as necessary.
It
includes info deemed as essential. Thanking list members for their input.

Abstract
==

This original proposal outlines 3 points to enhance app making in Python,
namely:

-- The formulation of a Python-specific single-file executable (Archive)
-- Better integration of the VM with the OS
-- Features to be supported by the native Gui library

This proposal aims at working to boost the dissemination of Python apps
and help further promote Python as the language of choice for developing
apps. It explores beyond performance, what can be improved? But since
the previous thread focused on the archive, we'll focus on it in this draft.

Aim Expansion


One area where there remains some difficulty in Python is packaging for
end-user consumption. To that effect either the code is distributed in pure
Python form with installers or native executables are built for each target
Os. Currently by default, Python does not provide such utilities. This pro-
posal aims at finalising a Python-specific archive as the default VM exec-
utable.

To further support the above, the proposals explores the impacts on the
interpreter: how should it be modified. Modifications explored don't
touch the parser in any way. Instead of discussing how to better integrate
the official dist with the System, this will discuss only archive-specific
mod-
ifications.

A push to choose Python might be providing better GUI options, so that
apps become more powerful, more beautiful and with even faster develop-
ment time. The proposal aimed to show the limitations of the current GUI
option  (tkinter) and what features can make app-making using default uti-
lities a class above. But, it is bulky enough to be discussed in a
different
draft.

In the light of the above, this draft's topic will be:

Python-specific Executable Archive.


Python-specific Executable Archive
===

Inspiration
--

Java has a file format called .jar which allows bundled programs to be run
with
a simple click.

Defining Executable
---

Before we begin, we'd like to define the term executable used in the context
of this draft. It means an archive that is run by double-clicking. This is
made
possible by file association. The closest example existent is the .pyz file
format.
Although for example .jar files are not native executables, they are
nonetheless
referred to in common language as executable as in question like these:
How to create an executable jar in java
.

Closest Python Implementation
-

Python already has an archive bundling module called zipapp which allow a
project to be bundled as a zip archive which has __main__.py as an point.

Advantages of zip-executables
-

PEP441  states one of the
advantage as: "These archives provide a great way to
publish software that needs to be distributed as a single file script but
is complex
enough to need to be written as a collection of modules."

Oracle Docs

state the advantage of archive executables in the following term:

"JAR files are packaged with the ZIP file format, so you can use them for
tasks
such as lossless data compression, archiving, decompression, and archive
unpacking.
These tasks are among the most common uses of JAR files, and you can
realize many JAR file benefits using only these basic features.

Even if you want to take advantage of advanced functionality provided by the
JAR file format such as electronic signing ..."

Other advantages include
- Portability
- Security
- Versioning
- Dependency freezing

which will be discussed when discussing specific examples.

How a .jar can help?


Both Java and Python share similarities in having a VM, bytecodes and being
labelled as cross-platform languages. Java has a .jar format for
distribution.
The .jar file gave rise to many formats such as the .apk


Brief


This proposal proposes to alter  zipapp with enhanced security and
versioning
among others. It can have a .pyz extention or choose another extention.


Existing solutions
==

In this section we give an overview of existing file formats.

1) .Jar
-

An official intro
 runs
like this: "JAR file is a file format based on the popular ZIP
file format and is used for aggregating many files into one. A  JAR file is
essentially a zip file that contains an optional META-INF directory. A JAR
file can be created by the command-line jar tool, or by