Python Evangelism
Python On WinXP: 7 Minutes To "Hello World!" Call it Python for the Complete XP Idiot if you must, but it's getting dugg on digg.com http://digg.com/programming rpd -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python Evangelism
I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon, as a result of which I created a squidoo lens: http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it means more people will adopt the language. Any suggestions for improvement? regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon, > as a result of which I created a squidoo lens: > >http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy > > Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by > number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some > mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it > means more people will adopt the language. > > Any suggestions for improvement? Yeah, the URL: http://www.squidoo.com/pythonology :) Just -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Steve Holden wrote: > I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon, > as a result of which I created a squidoo lens: > >http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy > > Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by > number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some > mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it > means more people will adopt the language. > > Any suggestions for improvement? > '-nology' not '-nlogy' in the link. I like the 'What's Happening on Planet Python' section - I find the planetpython.org gives too much of an intro to the pages it links to. A line or too, as in the lens site, would be preferable in my view. Just a thought - would a similar section be suitable for 'python.org' main page? Gerard -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Python is in desperate need of marketing and I don't think its new site will help it.The Ruby community has a fanaticism we could learn from and its going some way to 'converting' me. The community is alive, growing, shouting from the roof tops while the Python community seems to sit in its ivory towers conducting research and corporate development in 'forward-thinking' companies such as Google. I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.On 9 Mar 2006 02:43:53 -0800, Gerard Flanagan < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Steve Holden wrote:> I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon, > as a result of which I created a squidoo lens:>>http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy>> Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by > number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some> mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it> means more people will adopt the language.>> Any suggestions for improvement? > '-nology' not '-nlogy' in the link.I like the 'What's Happening on Planet Python' section - I find theplanetpython.org gives too much of an intro to the pages it links to. A line or too, as in the lens site, would be preferable in my view.Just a thought - would a similar section be suitable for 'python.org'main page?Gerard-- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Doug Bromley wrote: > Python is in desperate need of marketing and I don't think its new site > will help it. > The Ruby community has a fanaticism we could learn from and its going > some way to 'converting' me. The community is alive, growing, shouting > from the roof tops while the Python community seems to sit in its ivory > towers conducting research and corporate development in > 'forward-thinking' companies such as Google. > OK, and this post will improve the situation how, exactly? > I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it. > Indeed. Hence http://www.squidoo.com/pythonology And your contribution is ... yet another post about how we all need to *do* something? On the other hand, you could just roll up your sleeves and start doing something :-) Your take on Python is likely unique: start telling people why *you* use it. regards Steve > On 9 Mar 2006 02:43:53 -0800, *Gerard Flanagan* < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > Steve Holden wrote: > > I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since > PyCon, > > as a result of which I created a squidoo lens: > > > >http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy > > > > Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by > > number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some > > mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going > if it > > means more people will adopt the language. > > > > Any suggestions for improvement? > > > > '-nology' not '-nlogy' in the link. > > I like the 'What's Happening on Planet Python' section - I find the > planetpython.org <http://planetpython.org> gives too much of an > intro to the pages it links to. A > line or too, as in the lens site, would be preferable in my view. > Just a thought - would a similar section be suitable for 'python.org > <http://python.org>' > main page? > > Gerard By the way, the apparent increase in rank was somewhat bogus given that there appear to be fewer than 20,000 lenses at present :-) -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Doug Bromley wrote: > I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it. on the other hand, people have posted "I can see XXX overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it NOW" messages for as long as I've been using Python. the best thing I've seen in the recent "argh! this is the end" threads that have been popping up here and there is this advice from an anonymous ruby user, from a comment on guido's blog: My advice for you Pythonistas: First, chill; the mind works better when relaxed. Second, look around and count your blessings; Python is every- where. Third, just work on something you find interesting and fun. have you used Python to work on something fun and interesting today? if not, what's your excuse? ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Steve Holden wrote: > Doug Bromley wrote: >> I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it. I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away. Gems is nice too. Compare that to Cheese Shop... who came up with that :) Do you want a pretty gem stone or a smelly slice of cheese? I mean that in a literal sense. I don't think Python is smelly at all, but it certainly has chosen some slimy, smelly bad names for itself! Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this fact doesn't sink in to the Python community. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
A defector!Release the hounds!Burn the scum! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
rtilley wrote: > Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this > fact doesn't sink in to the Python community. You speak of fluff and ribbons and glitter. I think most people here are less concerned with psychology and more interested in pychology. -- Dale Strickland-Clark Riverhall Systems www.riverhall.co.uk We're recruiting. See the web site for details. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Steve Holden wrote: > Any suggestions for improvement? > > regards > Steve Get rid of the scarey face? :-) -- Dale Strickland-Clark Riverhall Systems www.riverhall.co.uk We're recruiting. See the web site for details. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
On 3/9/06, rtilley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Doug Bromley wrote: > >> I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it. > > I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think > about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your > pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away. Woah, are you actually serious? What would changing the name of language you're trying to market do for the marketing campaign? New to the YAMMA language? Check out all these other Python tutorials to get started. I don't think it's the name, I think the major problem is people saying, "What can we do to market it?" and not actually doing anything, as Steven just said. Work on something. Create something popular. Heck promote django or some other framework. Work on some new innovative technology in python! Just choose python and recommend it to others. Word of mouth, Quality projects and not claiming "we need new marketing strategies" _IS_ the best marketing strategy. > Gems is nice too. Compare that to Cheese Shop... who came up with that > :) Do you want a pretty gem stone or a smelly slice of cheese? I mean > that in a literal sense. I don't think Python is smelly at all, but it > certainly has chosen some slimy, smelly bad names for itself! While I agree, that gem is nice and python needs a new standard package management system, maybe that's your contribution! Build it! Make it awesome! > Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this > fact doesn't sink in to the Python community. Pyschology _is_ important, but not in this case. Make good products and they will come. Python has a ton of good projects and a ton of users. What we don't have is ruby on rails and the web 2.0 crowd, and I say, who the hell cares? We have everything else. -- Andrew Gwozdziewycz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://ihadagreatview.org http://plasticandroid.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Dale Strickland-Clark wrote: > rtilley wrote: > > >>Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this >>fact doesn't sink in to the Python community. > > > You speak of fluff and ribbons and glitter. Yes, I know. Great products, ideas and methods have lost mind share to lesser things (not that Ruby is inferior to Python or vice versa) because they lack fluff, ribbons and glitter :) I hope Python gets more fluff... it already has lost of great technical merit :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Em Qui, 2006-03-09 às 09:51 +, Steve Holden escreveu: > I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon, > as a result of which I created a squidoo lens: > >http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy > > Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by > number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some > mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it > means more people will adopt the language. > > Any suggestions for improvement? Why don't you mention ReportLab there? I never saw a better library for creating PDFs in *any* language. For creating crude reports it may be a little more difficult than things like JasperReports, but for custom reports full of different forms of data presentations and such, like I'm doing now (and I plant to post later on ReportLab's samples page) it just rocks! Just my two cents, Felipe. -- "Quem excele em empregar a força militar subjulga os exércitos dos outros povos sem travar batalha, toma cidades fortificadas dos outros povos sem as atacar e destrói os estados dos outros povos sem lutas prolongadas. Deve lutar sob o Céu com o propósito primordial da 'preservação'. Desse modo suas armas não se embotarão, e os ganhos poderão ser preservados. Essa é a estratégia para planejar ofensivas." -- Sun Tzu, em "A arte da guerra" -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
I used to get all fired up about the language I love. And I'd evangelize a bit. But I'm getting too old for that. Energy could be better spent utilizing the tools you like. Sort of a "If you build it, they will come..." kind of thing. I get particulalry annoyed now with linux when I start up synaptic and my choices are cluttered with several programs who might help me in some way, but the only difference described in the description is that they were implemented in language XXX. I don't really consider that a choice, it's more noise than anything. On the other hand, programs that really do seem to be valuable don't seem to be screaming about what language they are written in. I had no idea the original BitTorrent was written in python, or scons when I installed it. Bittorrent helps me get files faster, scons helps me build ardour. They could be written in lisp for all I care, it benefits me nonetheless. My opinion is that providing programs that benefit people in some way could go a lot farther in promoting the language than propoganda about what you can do with the language. Shouting about the potential of the tools will only get you so far. Rails is the killer framework of the moment. So what? Where's the killer app that helps me do something new? All i hear about is people writing frameworks on top of rails to do things that can already be done. CMS's for example, there are some written in rails. To my knowledge none of them are mature yet, and thus the only "selling" point I hear about "written in rails". Benefit to me as a user still = 0%. How about this? someone write an interface to the quake3 engine, and make it damn easy for kids to write games and game mods. or... Make it possible to write ladspa plugins so that I can write crazy effects for ardour. or... an itunes like music manager that doesn't lock all my music away and handles m3u files properly out of the box. With a plug in system so people can extend it. don't even mention it was done in python, if it's done right, the true value will be apparent and your users will do the evangelizing for you. OK, I will now return to my happy place. :) -- Thomas G. Willis---http://i-see-sound.comhttp://tomwillis.sonicdiscord.com America, still more rights than North Korea -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Andrew Gwozdziewycz wrote: > On 3/9/06, rtilley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>>Doug Bromley wrote: >>> I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it. >> >>I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think >>about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your >>pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away. > > > Woah, are you actually serious? What would changing the name of language > you're > trying to market do for the marketing campaign? Yes I am. But I'm no one so there is no need to take my advice :) Snakes are naturally thought of as bad or dangerous. Some large snakes eat our pets and other small, warm-blooded, furry mammals like us. People naturally kill snakes or run from them. We teach children to avoid snakes. It's almost instinct to fear them. So, you have a product, an idea, a method... don't name it after something that is so naturally repulsive. It's really that simple. I've had people ask about the "Python" folder on their computer. They thought it must be a virus or malware simply based on its name. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Andrew Gwozdziewycz wrote: > What would changing the name of language you're > trying to market do for the marketing campaign? I forgot to address this part... I think it would create a lot of hype. What well-established programming language has ever had the nerve to change its name after more than a decade of success? Think of the attention that alone would bring :) python would get slashdotted to death! CNN would probably write about it... maybe the BBC too. Python could have a huge name changing contest/campaign and maybe some killer app could be released just as the name had changed. Guido could make some statement about dropping the cold-bloodedness of Python, becoming more warm and inviting, etc. etc. It would be a smashing success. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
rtilley wrote: > Steve Holden wrote: > > Doug Bromley wrote: > >> I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it. > > I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think > about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your > pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away. That's only fairly ridiculous. Sure, there are some negative connotations in various cultures, but a lot of the jibes about the Python name are fuelled by the need various people feel to validate their own beliefs in front of their own herd of programming language adherents. The reason why a name change is ridiculous now is that you'd be throwing away 15 or so years of name recognition in a way not dissimilar to the way companies with established brands spend millions to throw away recognisable, iconic logos and replace them with swirls and bright colours that look embarrassing only a few years later. > Gems is nice too. Compare that to Cheese Shop... who came up with that I agree with you here, though. I want to be diplomatic here, but Cheese Shop - a name for a package repository, for those who are lost already - is really just a totally stupid name. Yes, I'm aware of the Monty Python sketch, mediocre by the high standards of the Pythons' various other works, but people really shouldn't have to buy into some kind of clique to decode terminology in order to get help, support, updates, and to learn more about the technology they're using. Some people haven't even seen Monty Python, believe it or not, let alone be able to quote the less humourous sketches by heart; sometimes people just want straightforward labelling and humour in places where it's more likely to be appreciated. [...] > Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this > fact doesn't sink in to the Python community. A lot doesn't sink in with the Python community. :-/ Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
rtilley wrote: > It would be a smashing success. And I have an idea for a party game. It's called "Jump to Conclusions." There would be a mat with all of these conclusions written down and... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Paul Boddie wrote: > I agree with you here, though. I want to be diplomatic here, but Cheese > Shop - a name for a package repository, for those who are lost already > - is really just a totally stupid name. Yes, I'm aware of the Monty > Python sketch, mediocre by the high standards of the Pythons' various > other works, but people really shouldn't have to buy into some kind of > clique to decode terminology in order to get help, support, updates, > and to learn more about the technology they're using. Some people > haven't even seen Monty Python... Even more reason to change the name. Use a name that has lots of other widely known, well thought of names associated with it. The Ruby name is a very good example of this. Although, this was accidental and not planned. People associate the words precious, valued, gem, treasured, stone solid, etc. with the word ruby. Also, a good product with a good name makes it easy for others to add value by building other good names around it. What do you think of when you hear 'eggs'? Many people think 'rotten', 'smelly' or something that made them throw-up once. The point of this is that names _matter_ and influence what others think even if only in a subconscious way. I'll leave it at that. I like Python a lot. Technically, it's awesome. I don't think the language is bad... just the names associated with it. Just my 2 cents. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
On 3/9/06, rtilley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Paul Boddie wrote: > > I agree with you here, though. I want to be diplomatic here, but Cheese > > Shop - a name for a package repository, for those who are lost already > > - is really just a totally stupid name. Yes, I'm aware of the Monty > > Python sketch, mediocre by the high standards of the Pythons' various > > other works, but people really shouldn't have to buy into some kind of > > clique to decode terminology in order to get help, support, updates, > > and to learn more about the technology they're using. Some people > > haven't even seen Monty Python... > > Even more reason to change the name. > > Use a name that has lots of other widely known, well thought of names > associated with it. The Ruby name is a very good example of this. > Although, this was accidental and not planned. > > People associate the words precious, valued, gem, treasured, stone > solid, etc. with the word ruby. Also, a good product with a good name > makes it easy for others to add value by building other good names > around it. > > What do you think of when you hear 'eggs'? Many people think 'rotten', > 'smelly' or something that made them throw-up once. The point of this is > that names _matter_ and influence what others think even if only in a > subconscious way. > > I'll leave it at that. I like Python a lot. Technically, it's awesome. I > don't think the language is bad... just the names associated with it. This is getting too silly! The name 'Python' is just as good a choice as many other names. What do _you_ think of when you hear 'Linux'? Or C? Or 'Perl'? (how many programmers visualize pearls when writing Perl? I never did). Yet these things got very popular and didn't suffer due to a non-shiny happy name. Some people think 'cool' when they think of Pythons (snakes or comedy troupes). Some people think 'delicious' when they hear the word eggs. Some people may think "girl's name" when they hear Ruby, or think Wizard of Oz and slippers. It's not as if Python is named lark's vomit. And re Cheeseshop, yes, it's a poor name when you consider that the point of the skit was that the cheeseshop _had no cheese_, whose only purpose was to "deliberately waste your time." Not a great name for a package library, especially for those in the know of Python humor! rb -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
rtilley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Steve Holden wrote: >> Doug Bromley wrote: >>> I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it. > I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. I agree that names are very important -- Java would never have caught on the way that it did if Sun had left the name as "Oak". I think you're wrong about the name "Python", though. Snakes are cool and have street cred. That's why there are cars with names like "Cobra" and "Viper". It doesn't matter if the average joe is scared when they see a folder named "python" on their computer, as the average joe isn't a programmer. Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay, well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on Prozac"? I give up. In any case, I'm sure Django was a great musician, but the product needs a better name to have any chance of displacing Rails. |>oug -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Steve Holden wrote: > I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon, > as a result of which I created a squidoo lens: > > Any suggestions for improvement? Something that seems to be ignored in general Python evangelism is its support for major platform-specific technologies. e.g. On OS X you've got PyObjC, py2app and appscript, which enable Python to integrate with or compete against ObjC and AppleScript for desktop application development and automation. I'm sure Windows and Linux folk could name various extensions for those platforms too. HTH -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
On Mar 9, 2006, at 12:04 PM, rtilley wrote: > What do you think of when you hear 'eggs'? Many people think 'rotten', > 'smelly' or something that made them throw-up once. The point of > this is > that names _matter_ and influence what others think even if only in a > subconscious way. I think you've got a lot of bottled up negativity. > I'll leave it at that. I like Python a lot. Technically, it's > awesome. I > don't think the language is bad... just the names associated with it. I'm betting you won't leave it at that. Zac -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
rtilley wrote: > Steve Holden wrote: > >> Doug Bromley wrote: >> >>> I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it. > > > I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think > about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your > pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away. I think you have a point, but I also think it's a bit late to change it after 15 years or so, considering all books, web sites etc. We're stuck with Python, and can only do the best of that. Actually, in Swedish, "Jag mår pyton" i.e. "I feel like python" means "I feel sick", and "det luktar pyton" i.e. "it smells python", means "it stinks". That doesn't make Python easier to sell here... Still to late to change... It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though. (We don't need even more stink...) I think a good example on the problem with letting techies like us do naming is that grand successor of Unix developed by the great minds at Bell Labs. First, they name it after a movie which is famous for being exceptionally bad--Plan 9 (from outer space). Really grand company there! Then, when they make a real product of it, they call it Inferno, and some part of it gets called Limbo. They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be elected president unless you claim that you are a devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every time you open your mouth. No wonder the preferred operating systems (except a boring proprietary one) are still purely old fashion Unix based ones. Most of those smart improvements never quite made it... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Magnus Lycka wrote: > That doesn't make Python easier to sell here... verkligen? jag kan inte påminna mig om att någon någonsin langat upp det argumentet, annat än möjligen som ett tamt skämt... (borde du inte vara ute på stan och svira, förresten, istället för att sitta på jobbet så här sent? ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Robert Boyd wrote: > And re Cheeseshop, yes, it's a poor name when you consider that the > point of the skit was that the cheeseshop _had no cheese_, whose only > purpose was to "deliberately waste your time." Not a great name for a > package library, especially for those in the know of Python humor! "Cheese shop" is intended as a double irony, surely? I suppose some cultures (and certain types of people, especially PHBs) are challenged by single irony, let alone a double dose. Tim C -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Douglas Alan wrote: > Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python > has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than > Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it > doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become > very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on > Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay, > well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of > boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too > derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on > Prozac"? How about Amethyst? As in "amethyst python" - see http://www.stthomasschool.org/Classrooms/ausnz/AmPython.htm Of course, although amethyst was originally considered a "cardinal gem" alongside ruby, it no longer is since huge quantities were discovered in Brazil - at least, that's what is says here: http://www.answers.com/topic/gemstone-1 > I give up. In any case, I'm sure Django was a great musician, but the > product needs a better name to have any chance of displacing Rails. I find the Django name tres cool and am considering changing the names of two Python projects on which I am working to Thelonious and Miles. Tim C -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Felipe Almeida Lessa wrote: > Em Qui, 2006-03-09 às 09:51 +, Steve Holden escreveu: > >>I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon, >>as a result of which I created a squidoo lens: >> >> http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy >> >>Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by >>number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some >>mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it >>means more people will adopt the language. >> >>Any suggestions for improvement? > > > Why don't you mention ReportLab there? I never saw a better library for > creating PDFs in *any* language. For creating crude reports it may be a > little more difficult than things like JasperReports, but for custom > reports full of different forms of data presentations and such, like I'm > doing now (and I plant to post later on ReportLab's samples page) it > just rocks! > It's there now. Thanks. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 20:21:59 +0100 Magnus Lycka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though. > (We don't need even more stink...) I love cheese, so no problem on that score. But the problem is, if you actually know where "Python" comes from, you are likely to suspect that said site contains no cheese. I think even GvR mentioned this at PyCon. ;-) OTOH, I guess ironic naming can be cool, too. I'm still a little put off by "Dogpile" though. And isn't there a language called "brainfuck" or something? So "python" is hardly the worst. Reminds me of Slartibartfast's original name in the Hitchhiker's radio scripts -- the point being that he has this really embarrassing name and doesn't want to talk about it. The original joke was funnier (but unbroadcastable). Even now I'm wondering if some filter is going to kill this message. Anyway, "python" could theoretically apply the "bad=good" marketing, although something venomous would probably be more effective. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
> I agree that names are very important -- Java would never have caught > on the way that it did if Sun had left the name as "Oak". I think > you're wrong about the name "Python", though. Snakes are cool and > have street cred. That's why there are cars with names like "Cobra" > and "Viper". > > It doesn't matter if the average joe is scared when they see a folder > named "python" on their computer, as the average joe isn't a > programmer. > > Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python > has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than > Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it > doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become > very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on > Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay, > well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of > boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too > derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on > Prozac"? > I'll admit "Ruby on Rails" is a clever name. The fact that you mention it "didn't catch on" is only partially true. Popular? Not by any means, but there were a good number of users before Rails. Quite a lot of libraries and a very usable language. Rails did however jump start it's new career as the definitive web2.0 language, but who cares? Not me! We're talking python here. There's no need for Python to have "Python on Cables" or some other equally stupid named project. Python doesn't even need to be the definitive web language. Who cares? Use it if you want to to build a website. Hell I like django quite a bit, but anyone writing something for django knows it's written in python. Anyone writing something with Ruby On Rails knows that ruby is the language behind it. Does some non programmer care? No. If some non-programmer decided to create a new web app, and his friend said, 'I hear django is quick and oh, it use's this really cool easy to learn language python,' What's the difference? Is calling it Python on Trees any different? The guy doesn't know what python on is, let alone why it's on trees? --- Andrew Gwozdziewycz [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ihadagreatview.org http://and.rovir.us -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Python is a friendly name, like Mickey Mouse. If you saw a real mouse (or worse, a rat), you wouldn't likely fall in love with it; but Mickey is about as good a marketing icon as any in history. Python also has staying power. Snakes may be scary and even dangerous, but they get respect; think about the symbol for medical science. A friendly snake is a good snake, and the Python logo snake is very friendly. In fact, If there's one word I would suggest as a slogan for Python, it's "friendly". Python is friendly for Linux users, friendly for Mac OS X users, friendly for Windows users, friendly to JVM users, and handheld users; friendly for web server programmers, client-side GUI programmers, etc. Python has a friendly community, is friendly to experts, and friendly to newbies. Heck, we're even friendly to other programming language communities ;-))) Ron Stephens Python411 www.awaretek.com/python/index.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
"Steve Holden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] This thread was great entertainment at the end of today reading down the screen with a beer going down on the side. Here's my penny's worth: Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name to 'Consignia' in 2001. After a year and a bit they chucked the fancy new name for the old one - 'Post Office'. Although I scan the trade rags I missed the editorial announcing hp re-branding some of its products (test and measurement) Agilent and it confused me for some time as I saw Agilent products advertised that looked just like hp ones. (And I still think of my "Agilent" oscilloscope as an 'hp', this probably reflects my middle years!) As no one in this thread has said why Python is so good here's my reasons. The text print "hello world" stuck in a file and executed actually works and does exactly what it says on the tin - great for knocking up simple procedural scripts. On the other hand there's lots of freely available modules in the standard lib and 'out there' for doing full blown OO programming for complex multi-threaded apps. (I'm currently looking at Twisted for a distributed internet app - looks good so far) wxPython + Glade I'm finding is a good combination for putting together Python + GUI apps. No compile then link (while I go and make a coffee, stare out the window . . . ) stage, write once run anywhere. what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula, eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler, forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al ad nauseum. - is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch! active news group that's always been helpful One language does full blown apps and simple desktop scripts. It's more readable than other languages I've looked at. > > Any suggestions for improvement? > Well yes, mainly documentation - especially exceptions. The principle of exceptions is described well in the reference manual and standard books. What I mean is the ref manual often buries exception details in the text description and gives only outline detail of the exception's cause(s) and details of the exception object. Some lib modules do state that other exceptions may be thrown but unless they are listed how can robust programmes be written? The httplib does list the HTTPException based exceptions but there is no mention of the 'socket' exceptions that can be thrown. This leaves the programmer with using a catch all (frowned upon) or scanning through hundreds/thousands of lines of code in possibly deeply nested modules. The beer's run out so I'll stop here. keep at it everyone, best regards, John Pote -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
...In any case, I'm sure Django was a great musician, but theproduct needs a better name to have any chance of displacing Rails. |>oug Yes he was an amazing guitarist. If you ever listen to his stuff, keep in mind he had 2 working fingers on his fret hand, and ripping on a guitar that would be considered impossible to play by todays standards. When I saw Django as a python based web framework, I got a positive vibe from the name of it. But then I'm also a guitarist. -- Thomas G. Willis---http://i-see-sound.comhttp://tomwillis.sonicdiscord.com America, still more rights than North Korea -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Magnus Lycka wrote: > They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full > of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be > elected president unless you claim that you are a > devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every > time you open your mouth. Maybe Pythonistas should make a cultural investment in emergent markets? http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm Kay -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Kay Schluehr wrote: > Magnus Lycka wrote: > >> They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full >> of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be >> elected president unless you claim that you are a >> devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every >> time you open your mouth. > > Maybe Pythonistas should make a cultural investment in emergent > markets? > > http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm I notice the above page mentions Glykon - see also http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/glykon/glykon.html I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring divinity for PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan gods is, like everything else, bigger in Texas. Tim C -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Magnus Lycka wrote:
> rtilley wrote:
>
>>
>> I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer.
>> Think about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in
>> your pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.
>
>
> I think you have a point, but I also think it's a bit
> late to change it after 15 years or so, considering all
> books, web sites etc. We're stuck with Python, and can
> only do the best of that. Actually, in Swedish, "Jag
> mår pyton" i.e. "I feel like python" means "I feel
> sick", and "det luktar pyton" i.e. "it smells python",
> means "it stinks". That doesn't make Python easier to
> sell here... Still to late to change...
>
In Finnish "ajaa käärme pyssyyn" ("force a snake into a rifle") means
doing something almost impossible. If you have to put a snake into a
rifle, try Python - a bite does not kill you. So it works both ways.
> I think a good example on the problem with letting
> techies like us do naming is that grand successor
> of Unix developed by the great minds at Bell Labs.
>
> First, they name it after a movie which is famous
> for being exceptionally bad--Plan 9 (from outer space).
> Really grand company there!
>
> Then, when they make a real product of it, they call
> it Inferno, and some part of it gets called Limbo.
>
"Inferno - the Lamborghini Diablo of operating systems"
What is the problem here?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
> It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.
> (We don't need even more stink...)
What kind of cheese do you guys eat anyway ;-)
It's not the names that are the problem as far as markleing goes - they
are not dull names, which means they won't be forgotten. This is a good
thing! As is the humour - who amongst us are going to forget where the
repository for community projects are? Unlike RubyJewels, RubyBaubles
or whatever ;-)
As long as the names are memorable, marketing isn't an issue if it
want's to be done. For example the famous British inventors Wallace and
Gromit could be asked to endorse Python, ("Look Gromit - a Cheese
shop!"). And there is a successful web-based credit card called an Egg
card.
A Python is a good powerful image to have associated with the language.
What does Ruby say? That the language is pretty? And Perl? Misleading
advertising there then ;-) Ever seen a Python? Powerful, elegant, and
can digest just about anything you can feed it... good image I reckon!
I'm obviously not suggesting we do such a thing, just pointing out a
couple of things:
1) There's nothing wrong with the names we've got.
2) Some people on this newsgroup need to clean their fridges out more
often!
--
Ant...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 19:33:38 -0500 "Thomas G. Willis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 3/9/06, Terry Hancock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 10:33:12 -0500 > > "Thomas G. Willis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I get particulalry annoyed now with linux when I start > > > up synaptic and my choices are cluttered with several > > > programs who might help me in some way, but the only > > > difference described in the description is that they > > > were implemented in language XXX. I don't really > > > consider that a choice, it's more noise than anything. > > > > Well, it's a matter of audience. I like to know what > > language programs are written in because I might want to > > modify them, and I don't feel equally confident in every > > language. A program written in C is less "open" to me > > personally than one written in Python (even though C is > > something I have used). A program written in Lisp or > > Prolog might as well be closed source for my purposes -- > > I'd have as much luck begging the developers to make > > changes as to attempt them myself. > > > > This is a non-issue for programs that already "just > > work", which is why a utility like bittorrent needn't > > bother advertising its language. It also can be a > > red-herring if a language is written in C or Java, but > > has an excellent Python scripting environment. > > > > So, while I can appreciate that it may seem like noise > > to someone who never imagines tinkering with the sources > > and it isn't a 100% indicator of what I want to know, > > it can be really useful to tinkerers (and it shouldn't > > be surprising that tinkerers design a system that's good > > for tinkerers). > > > > There are of course, desktop distributions that cut all > > that cruft down to "best of breed" applications for the > > end user. > > > I see your points Terry. And I understand the need for > tinkerers and the value of knowing what options are > available in a given language. > > But, I think relying on the language as a selling > point/feature is short sighted. I can't recall any program > that has gained mass acceptance who's selling point was > "written in ..." That makes sense if the author's objective is "mass acceptance". But that's not what you get "paid" for on an open source project. Payment -- in the form of contributions to your project -- occurs because you attract people who share your interest in working on the code. Of course, this really depends a lot on who the author is, and what their motivations were in creating the package. But in the classic "scratch an itch"/"single developer working in their spare time" scenario, it's pretty common. It's also probably a bit much to expect "savvy marketing" from said back room developer. ;-) It helps if you think of it as a "swap meet" instead of a "department store". :-) > In the case of language evangelism, It'd be nice if kick > ass programs were produced that revolutionized computing > and how people communicate. If they were written in a > language that I already know and can extend if I desire, > even better. if the equation were flipped and it was just > a program written in a language I know, but does not do > anything of value for me that isn't already fulfilled > elsewhere, then it essentially holds no value. That would be true if programs were atomic. But it quite frequently happens that a program which provides a "mundane" piece of programming infrastructure (say an email client) is a useful part to add to that "revolutionary" application that you've been tinkering with for the last few months. Anyway, I think most of us are into evolution more than revolution. The latter is more newsworthy, but the former is where most of the action is most of the time. Kind of like any field in science or engineering. :-) > why did you reply to me instead of the list? Thumbfingered, I guess. ;-) I've responded to both and left myself quoted. Normally, my client *does* respond automatically to the list, I'm not sure why it didn't this time. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:44:55 +1100 Tim Churches <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring > divinity for PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan > gods is, like everything else, bigger in Texas. Ignoring the silly Python jokes, *is* PyCON going to be in Texas next year? I wasn't sure what would happen, since it was in Washington DC the last (first?) 3 years, according to the website. Would be great for me if true, since I live there. -- Terry Hancock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Terry Hancock wrote: > On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:44:55 +1100 > Tim Churches <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring >>divinity for PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan >>gods is, like everything else, bigger in Texas. > > > Ignoring the silly Python jokes, *is* PyCON going to be in > Texas next year? I wasn't sure what would happen, since it > was in Washington DC the last (first?) 3 years, according to > the website. Would be great for me if true, since I live > there. > Yes, 2007 will be at the same place as 2006. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
John Pote wrote: > > Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name > to 'Consignia' in 2001. I thought it was actually the Royal Mail, but the brand history can be found here: http://www.royalmailgroup.com/aboutus/aboutus8.asp The fact that people confuse "Royal Mail" with "Post Office" might suggest something to brand experts, but I'd argue that pulling one of the names out of use, especially the one people tend not to use (but the one they've now chosen for the parent company), would suggest something else to normal people: it would either weaken the dual-named "superbrand" or merely be regarded with contempt. Examples can be found for this and other re-branding cases quite readily on the Internet, but don't search for 'Consignia "Royal Mail"' in Google, though, as it seems to result in a bizarre error page: """ We're sorry... ... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process your request right now. """ Anyway, aside from bizarre technical moments like this, what you've described can probably be termed "brand suicide": the scrapping of a recognisable brand identity with something fashionable at a particular point in time that looks dated within a few years, and which has people wondering who they're doing business with (despite extensive publicity), only to discover that it's been the same company all along. [...] > what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula, > eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler, > forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al > ad nauseum. > - is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch! The problem with the Cheese Shop name, aside from sounding ridiculous, is that it isn't self-explanatory in an area which needs self-explanatory labelling. Consider the following conversations: A: "I need to find something in Python that does this." B: "Have you tried the Python Package Index?" A: "Don't know why I didn't think of that!" A: "I need to find something in Python that does this." B: "Have you tried the Cheese Shop?" A: "WTF is that?" [Lengthy, embarrassed explanation follows.] Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque, three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Paul Boddie wrote: > John Pote wrote: > >>Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name >>to 'Consignia' in 2001. > > > I thought it was actually the Royal Mail, but the brand history can be > found here: > > http://www.royalmailgroup.com/aboutus/aboutus8.asp > > The fact that people confuse "Royal Mail" with "Post Office" might > suggest something to brand experts, but I'd argue that pulling one of > the names out of use, especially the one people tend not to use (but > the one they've now chosen for the parent company), would suggest > something else to normal people: it would either weaken the dual-named > "superbrand" or merely be regarded with contempt. Examples can be found > for this and other re-branding cases quite readily on the Internet, but > don't search for 'Consignia "Royal Mail"' in Google, though, as it > seems to result in a bizarre error page: > > """ > We're sorry... > ... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer > virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process > your request right now. > """ > > Anyway, aside from bizarre technical moments like this, what you've > described can probably be termed "brand suicide": the scrapping of a > recognisable brand identity with something fashionable at a particular > point in time that looks dated within a few years, and which has people > wondering who they're doing business with (despite extensive > publicity), only to discover that it's been the same company all along. > > [...] > > >>what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula, >>eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler, >>forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al >>ad nauseum. >> - is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch! > > > The problem with the Cheese Shop name, aside from sounding ridiculous, > is that it isn't self-explanatory in an area which needs > self-explanatory labelling. Consider the following conversations: > > A: "I need to find something in Python that does this." > B: "Have you tried the Python Package Index?" > A: "Don't know why I didn't think of that!" > > A: "I need to find something in Python that does this." > B: "Have you tried the Cheese Shop?" > A: "WTF is that?" > [Lengthy, embarrassed explanation follows.] > > Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend > themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want > answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover > that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque, > three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms > like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway. > > Paul > All true to some extent, but rather negated byt he fact that the first Google hot for "python package" is: Python Cheese Shop : Home Updated, Package, Description. 2006-03-09, PyISAPIe 1.0.0, Python ISAPI ... 2006-03-07, matplotlib 0.87.1, Matlab(TM) style python plotting package ... cheeseshop.python.org/pypi - 10k - 8 Mar 2006 - Cached - Similar pages I still wish it had some explanaotry text on there, though. i can't help agreeing with you that "Cheese Shop" is just, well, cheesy. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Paul Boddie wrote: > Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend > themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want > answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover > that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque, > three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms > like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway. To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop? -- Rod -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
> To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to > the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop? > Well, why don't we promote it as PyPI (Python Package Index)? The url _is_ python.org/pypi, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that PyPI was the intended name... If the community then decides on some standardized automated package management, I'm sure PyPI (cheese shop) would probably be the definitive repository. $ pypi install hello is much better than $ bluecheese install hello -- Andrew Gwozdziewycz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://ihadagreatview.org http://plasticandroid.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Andrew Gwozdziewycz wrote: > > To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to > >>the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop? >> > > > Well, why don't we promote it as PyPI (Python Package Index)? The url > _is_ python.org/pypi, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that PyPI > was the intended name... If the community then decides on some > standardized automated package management, I'm sure PyPI (cheese shop) > would probably be the definitive repository. > > $ pypi install hello > > is much better than > > $ bluecheese install hello > I have to say I prefer pypi myself.. I think it's a great idea subtitling it 'cheeseshop' but referring to it directly as "cheeseshop" is confusing at best. I've already had a few requests to change the text of the link on the home page to 'packages' or 'package index'. Tim Parkin -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Benny wrote: > Paul Boddie wrote: > >> Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend >> themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want >> answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover >> that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque, >> three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms >> like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway. > > To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to > the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop? I like the irony of the name Cheese Shop, but I do think that there is a problem with "Shop", as it typically means a place where you buy things for money. However, the vast majority of the cheesy comestibles at the Cheese Shop are available for free. In fact, of 1287 packages currently listed there, only 7 have non-free or proprietary licenses. Actually, it was the "National Cheese Emporium" in the original sketch, although Mr Wensleydale does describe it as a cheese shop - but both "shop" and "emporium" are used to describe places of commerce. On re-acquaintance, the sketch itself is still very funny after all these years, except perhaps for the ending, in which Mousebender shoots dead Mr Wensleydale for deliberately wasting his time. In the early 1970s in Britain, when shooters were possessed by a very small minority of blaggards, that might have been funny, but in the early 21st century, I find it grates a little (no pun intended) - I can imagine the same fate befalling a latter-day Wensleydale in a different country who happens to be fresh out of meira. But I am sure ESR would defend Mousebender's right to blow poor Wensleydale away - see http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html . So is there an alternative Monty Python sketch which has a theme of purveyance as opposed to commerce? None spring to mind. Tim C -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
"Tim Parkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Well, why don't we promote it as PyPI (Python Package Index)? The url >> _is_ python.org/pypi, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that PyPI >> was the intended name... If the community then decides on some >> standardized automated package management, I'm sure PyPI (cheese shop) >> would probably be the definitive repository. >> >> $ pypi install hello >> >> is much better than >> >> $ bluecheese install hello Definitely > I have to say I prefer pypi myself. Strongly prefer. Cheeseshop made no sense to me until explained. > I think it's a great idea > subtitling it 'cheeseshop' but referring to it directly as "cheeseshop" > is confusing at best. I think PieShop would be much funnier as a double pun on Py/Pi and as a subtle Python riff on the Cheeseshop sketch for those familiar with the latter. I also remember something about a Python/Parrot pie fight. > I've already had a few requests to change the text > of the link on the home page to 'packages' or 'package index'. Please at least make it a synonym. Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
The name isn't changing, so it's a "make lemonade" situation. What's the best use we can make of the name; how do we make it stick in people's minds positively? How do we make a positive image out of it? Shy tadpoles, by the way, ( http://python.org/images/python-logo.gif ) isn't it. mt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
Andrew Gwozdziewycz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Douglas Alan wrote: >> Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If >> Python has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather >> than Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so >> it doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django >> become very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring >> of "Ruby on Rails". > I'll admit "Ruby on Rails" is a clever name. The fact that you > mention it "didn't catch on" is only partially true. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. By "didn't catch on", I only meant that it had little mainstream success. At least in the US. I'm certainly aware that it has had a significant community of devotees for some time now. > Rails did however jump start it's new career as the definitive > web2.0 language, but who cares? Not me! Well, I'm not sure that the threat to Python is being fully appreciated here. I have friends who are fully convinced that Python is doomed because Ruby has all the buzz now. I think that their predictions of doom and gloom for Python are overstated. For one thing, I point out to them that Rails is what really has all the buzz, not Ruby per se. But such subtle distinctions seem to often get lost in the type of buzz that causes technologies to succeed or fail. This is an example of how names are indeed very important. There *is* a serious worry here. For instance, look how PHP completely decimated Perl in its biggest market niche at the time (CGI programming) in just a couple of years. PHP couldn't use that advantage to threaten the more general scripting niches, but unlike PHP, Ruby might certainly be able to leverage that advantage, as it is also a perfectly good general-purpose programming language. Ruby's domain is not limited to just server-side web scripting. For those who don't believe that Ruby on Rails does have an incredible amount of buzz going for it right now, I do have a number of personal data points that seem to indicate that it is indeed undergoing exponential growth at the moment: (1) I'm sitting in on a class at MIT on developing web applications. For their projects and assignments, the students are allowed to chose whatever programming languages, databases (as long as they are ACID-compliant), and development environments that they prefer. From what I can tell, more than half of the class is using Ruby on Rails. One group is using C# and .NET. Another is using JSP. No one is using PHP. No one is using Django. One group was doing straight Python CGI, but I think they switched to Rails. (2) I've started to see advertisements for web hosting services where the ads say, "PHP! MySQL! Rails!". (3) I have friends who work in companies that are big Python shops, but they seem to be moving to Rails for web development. > Hell I like django quite a bit, but anyone writing something for > django knows it's written in python. Yes, and for Rails, everyone who has never even seen a single line of Ruby code knows that it is Ruby-based. The same cannot be said for Django. > If some non-programmer decided to create a new web app, and his > friend said, 'I hear django is quick and oh, it use's this really > cool easy to learn language python,' What's the difference? There's a huge difference. Ruby on Rails gives Ruby great brand recognition, while Django does nothing at all for Python's brand recognition. Just pay attention to TV commercials: a large fraction of them have nothing to say whatsoever about the merits of their product -- the ads just want to get the brand name into your head. For better or worse, this is how human psychology works. In any case, it's almost certainly too late for Django to achieve the kind of popularity that Rails is achieving; if you Google "web-development rails", you get 3 million hits, while if you Google "web-development django", you get 82,000 hits. So, unfortunately, how to best use Django to help popularize Python is almost certainly moot at this point. |>oug -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Evangelism
If I get time I'll expand my thoughts and experiences but for now, Don't know what Ruby on Rails is but it's catchy and current high volume of interest makes me think - I should look into it. Django, skip reading this thread before and I had not even picked up it was a Python product (still don't know what it is too little time to look!) Python seems to concentrate on language development rather than environment development. Programmer productivity depends much more on the associated environment - docs, code editor, libraries, wysiwyg GUI designer - than the language. So far my experience is that the further away from the core language the worst things get. My principle moan about the standard library is lack of formal stating of ALL exceptions that can be thrown by a module. Sometimes the detail is burried in the general text about the module which makes it difficult to eye ball quickly. httplib does not mention any of the socket module exceptions that can be thrown. This makes it difficult to write stable bullet proof code. Finding myself slowed down too much by hand coding tkinter (and modifying it weeks later) I've switched to wxPython and Glade. Certainly better but wxPython docs are not ideal. (only reason for switching is lack of wysiwyg GUI designer for it) I get a myApp.pyw working on one machine. Copy to another and maybe forget something (usually updating my own python library so a header import fails) and what happens? nothing if tkinter has not yet fired up the gui. and even if it has and there's an uncaught exception the app just closes. Any error message and traceback are dumped because there's no dos box. On the positive side Twisted (I have the docs and book) looks exactly what I need in all respects. I think the language has already made Python, the rest is down to its 'environment'. Best wishes to everyone, John Pote "Douglas Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Andrew Gwozdziewycz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> Douglas Alan wrote: > >>> Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If >>> Python has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather >>> than Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so >>> it doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django >>> become very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring >>> of "Ruby on Rails". > >> I'll admit "Ruby on Rails" is a clever name. The fact that you >> mention it "didn't catch on" is only partially true. > > I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. By "didn't catch on", I only meant that > it had little mainstream success. At least in the US. I'm certainly > aware that it has had a significant community of devotees for some > time now. > >> Rails did however jump start it's new career as the definitive >> web2.0 language, but who cares? Not me! > > Well, I'm not sure that the threat to Python is being fully > appreciated here. I have friends who are fully convinced that Python > is doomed because Ruby has all the buzz now. I think that their > predictions of doom and gloom for Python are overstated. For one > thing, I point out to them that Rails is what really has all the buzz, > not Ruby per se. But such subtle distinctions seem to often get lost > in the type of buzz that causes technologies to succeed or fail. This > is an example of how names are indeed very important. > > There *is* a serious worry here. For instance, look how PHP > completely decimated Perl in its biggest market niche at the time (CGI > programming) in just a couple of years. PHP couldn't use that > advantage to threaten the more general scripting niches, but unlike > PHP, Ruby might certainly be able to leverage that advantage, as it is > also a perfectly good general-purpose programming language. Ruby's > domain is not limited to just server-side web scripting. > > For those who don't believe that Ruby on Rails does have an incredible > amount of buzz going for it right now, I do have a number of personal > data points that seem to indicate that it is indeed undergoing > exponential growth at the moment: (1) I'm sitting in on a class at MIT > on developing web applications. For their projects and assignments, > the students are allowed to chose whatever programming languages, > databases (as long as they are ACID-compliant), and development > environments that they prefer. From what I can tell, more than half > of the class is using Ruby on Rails. One group is using C# and .NET. > Another is using JSP. No one is using PHP. No one is using Django. > One group was doing straight Python CGI, but I think they switched to > Rails. (2) I've started to see advertisements for web hosting > services where the ads say, "PHP! MySQL! Rails!". (3) I have > friends who work in companies that are big Python shops, but they seem > to be moving to Rails for web development. > >> Hell I like django quite a bit, but anyone writing something
