RE: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[avi.e.gross]

To be clear, the discussion strikes me oddly.

You can learn python without a computer. Of course to actually have people
write code and try it out is another story.

Python by itself is simply a program that can be typed into an interpreter
or given a file to process and works just as well on LINUX, Windows and so
on. I have half a dozen varieties on my machine from various
modes/distributions.

As some have pointed out, any RECENT version of python (presumably the 3
version unless your goal is to teach the older version) should be fine for
teaching but obviously all kinds of tools can help. But there are online
resources that may be adequate that require NOTHING but a browser:

https://py3.codeskulptor.org/

The above URL allows you to create and run and save python files and is
probably adequate for teaching basics and for sharing programs others have
saved by sending you the URL. 

Of course, beyond a certain point, it fails to meet needs such as not
supporting importing random modules.

But as was discussed here before, you can find little time to teach python
if you also have to teach every environment and editor and especially handle
students using other choices. But to ask everyone to use the same LINUX
distribution may also be a drastic step. 

The reality is that simple python programs can be handled with any standard
text editor. Sure, lots of bells and whistles can be added and there may
well be advantages to using systems ranging from anaconda  to lately RSTUDIO
but they often come with many superfluous features and lots of complexity.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Grant Edwards
Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2022 10:35 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python
programming language?

On 2022-08-04, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming  wrote:

> Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python 
> programming language?

You can learn Python on any Linux distribution.

First answer this question:

 * Whom are you going to ask for help when you run into Linux questions?

Install the Linux distro that person uses.


--
Grant
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
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Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2022-08-04, Christian Heimes  wrote:

> Fedora is an excellent choice for Python users. Fedora 36 already comes 
> with Python 3.11.0b5 in its main repository. In fact you have Python 
> 2.7, 3.5-3.11, PyPy 2.7, PyPy 3.7-3.9, and MicroPython at your fingertips.

Except that real programmers use Python 1.52 because they depend on the
assumption that integers are native word size and arithmatic is done
modulo-maxunsigned the same way it is in assembly language...

;)

Honestly, back when I was implementing netowrk protocols in Python on
a 32-bit machine, it was very useful having 32-bit Python integers.


-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Christian Heimes]

On 04/08/2022 20.12, Barry wrote:

Noted with thanks Kushal. Since I can download FREE copies of RHEL
9.0, I will use it then.


I consider rhel 9 is an old os. I would suggest using fedora over rhel.
Fedora 36 has python 3.10 and the when fedora 37 is released it will have 
python 3.11.
And fedora is free as well.


Fedora is an excellent choice for Python users. Fedora 36 already comes 
with Python 3.11.0b5 in its main repository. In fact you have Python 
2.7, 3.5-3.11, PyPy 2.7, PyPy 3.7-3.9, and MicroPython at your fingertips.


Christian
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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Barry]

> On 4 Aug 2022, at 09:48, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 13:02, Kushal Kumaran  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, Aug 04 2022 at 10:22:41 AM, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python
>>> programming language?
>>> 
>>> Good day from Singapore,
>>> 
>>> May I know which linux distro is more conducive for learning the
>>> Python programming language?
>>> 
>>> Since I have absolutely and totally FREE RHEL developer subscription
>>> (I don't need to spend a single cent), can I use Red Hat Enterprise
>>> Linux version 9.0 to learn Python?
>>> 
>>> Is it the most popular linux distro for learning Python?
>>> 
>>> I just want to know which linux distro and version is more conducive
>>> for learning Python. Because there are thousands of linux distros out
>>> there. And I just want to settle down on a particular linux distro and
>>> version.
>>> 
>> 
>> The best one would be whatever you happen to have installed and for
>> which you understand system administration.  Beyond that, distribution
>> choice matters very little.  Every distribution I've used ships python3
>> packages, which was fine for learning the language.
>> 
>> --
>> regards,
>> kushal
> 
> Noted with thanks Kushal. Since I can download FREE copies of RHEL
> 9.0, I will use it then.

I consider rhel 9 is an old os. I would suggest using fedora over rhel.
Fedora 36 has python 3.10 and the when fedora 37 is released it will have 
python 3.11.
And fedora is free as well.

Barry


> 
> Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
> Targeted Individual in Singapore
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 

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Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Tobiah]

On 8/3/22 19:01, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:

Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python 
programming language?


You might try Pythontu.

Not really.  Get the distro that looks appealing to you.
One won't be better than the other with regard to learning
python.




Good day from Singapore,

May I know which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python 
programming language?

Since I have absolutely and totally FREE RHEL developer subscription (I don't 
need to spend a single cent), can I use Red Hat Enterprise Linux version 9.0 to 
learn Python?

Is it the most popular linux distro for learning Python?

I just want to know which linux distro and version is more conducive for 
learning Python. Because there are thousands of linux distros out there. And I 
just want to settle down on a particular linux distro and version.

Thank you.

Regards,

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore
4 Aug 2022 Thursday
Blogs:
https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.com
https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com


--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2022-08-04, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming  wrote:

> Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python
> programming language?

You can learn Python on any Linux distribution.

First answer this question:

 * Whom are you going to ask for help when you run into Linux questions?

Install the Linux distro that person uses.


--
Grant
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Weatherby,Gerard]

Just be aware https://docs.python.org/3/ defaults to the latest Python version 
(3.10). When looking up a module, it’s best to explicitly set the documentation 
to the version you are using. It won’t matter the vast majority of the time but 
I have been burned by trying to use a function or parameter that was introduced 
with a later version.

—
Gerard Weatherby | Application Architect NMRbox | NAN | Department of Molecular 
Biology and Biophysics
 UConn Health 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-6406 uchc.edu
On Aug 4, 2022, 5:00 AM -0400, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming 
, wrote:
*** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening 
attachments or clicking on links. ***

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 16:50, dn  wrote:

PS most of us will qualify for RedHat's Developer program[me] and free
copies of software.

I can download free copies of RHEL 7.x, 8.x, and 9.x :) Just that I
dunno which RHEL version is better. Is RHEL 9.0 the best out of 7.x,
8.x and 9.x?

RedHat is a stable OpSys. Accordingly, it doesn't much matter which
version. The general assumption is that the more recent distribution has
more advanced facilities, eg improved security features in RHEL9.

As another post says, Fedora is closer to the bleeding-edge of Linux
development.

RHEL 9.0 is also quite close to the bleeding edge of Linux
development. It has Linux kernel version 5.14.0.


Be aware that there are many methods of adding Python. For example, if
your training is based on the Anaconda [Python] distribution, then it is
irrelevant which version of Python comes with the Linux distro. As
mentioned before, if you advance to developing in [Python] virtual
environments, then each of these could run a different version of
Python. Similarly, using a VM...

The question is relatively minor. More important to 'get going'!

I am going to get going on learning Python with RHEL 9.0.

(also mentioned previously: relatively easy to change (Python or distro)
'later'!)
--
Regards,
=dn

Regards,

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore
--
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Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 16:50, dn  wrote:
>
> >> PS most of us will qualify for RedHat's Developer program[me] and free
> >> copies of software.
> >
> > I can download free copies of RHEL 7.x, 8.x, and 9.x :) Just that I
> > dunno which RHEL version is better. Is RHEL 9.0 the best out of 7.x,
> > 8.x and 9.x?
>
> RedHat is a stable OpSys. Accordingly, it doesn't much matter which
> version. The general assumption is that the more recent distribution has
> more advanced facilities, eg improved security features in RHEL9.
>
> As another post says, Fedora is closer to the bleeding-edge of Linux
> development.

RHEL 9.0 is also quite close to the bleeding edge of Linux
development. It has Linux kernel version 5.14.0.

>
> Be aware that there are many methods of adding Python. For example, if
> your training is based on the Anaconda [Python] distribution, then it is
> irrelevant which version of Python comes with the Linux distro. As
> mentioned before, if you advance to developing in [Python] virtual
> environments, then each of these could run a different version of
> Python. Similarly, using a VM...
>
> The question is relatively minor. More important to 'get going'!

I am going to get going on learning Python with RHEL 9.0.

> (also mentioned previously: relatively easy to change (Python or distro)
> 'later'!)
> --
> Regards,
> =dn

Regards,

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[dn]

>> PS most of us will qualify for RedHat's Developer program[me] and free
>> copies of software.
> 
> I can download free copies of RHEL 7.x, 8.x, and 9.x :) Just that I
> dunno which RHEL version is better. Is RHEL 9.0 the best out of 7.x,
> 8.x and 9.x?

RedHat is a stable OpSys. Accordingly, it doesn't much matter which
version. The general assumption is that the more recent distribution has
more advanced facilities, eg improved security features in RHEL9.

As another post says, Fedora is closer to the bleeding-edge of Linux
development.

Be aware that there are many methods of adding Python. For example, if
your training is based on the Anaconda [Python] distribution, then it is
irrelevant which version of Python comes with the Linux distro. As
mentioned before, if you advance to developing in [Python] virtual
environments, then each of these could run a different version of
Python. Similarly, using a VM...

The question is relatively minor. More important to 'get going'!
(also mentioned previously: relatively easy to change (Python or distro)
'later'!)
-- 
Regards,
=dn
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 13:02, Kushal Kumaran  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Aug 04 2022 at 10:22:41 AM, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming 
>  wrote:
> > Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python
> > programming language?
> >
> > Good day from Singapore,
> >
> > May I know which linux distro is more conducive for learning the
> > Python programming language?
> >
> > Since I have absolutely and totally FREE RHEL developer subscription
> > (I don't need to spend a single cent), can I use Red Hat Enterprise
> > Linux version 9.0 to learn Python?
> >
> > Is it the most popular linux distro for learning Python?
> >
> > I just want to know which linux distro and version is more conducive
> > for learning Python. Because there are thousands of linux distros out
> > there. And I just want to settle down on a particular linux distro and
> > version.
> >
>
> The best one would be whatever you happen to have installed and for
> which you understand system administration.  Beyond that, distribution
> choice matters very little.  Every distribution I've used ships python3
> packages, which was fine for learning the language.
>
> --
> regards,
> kushal

Noted with thanks Kushal. Since I can download FREE copies of RHEL
9.0, I will use it then.

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 11:05, dn  wrote:
>
> On 04/08/2022 14.31, Paul Bryan wrote:
> > I wouldn't say any particular Linux distribution is appreciably better
> > for Python development than another. I would suggest using a version of
> > a Linux distribution that supports a recent Python release (e.g. 3.9 or
> > 3.10).
>
> +1
>
> As a Python-learner (there's no comment about current programming
> expertise), it is unlikely to make any difference which Linux distro is
> used.
>
> Answers to such open-ended questions are usually seated in bias - which
> in-turn is mostly likely to be the same answer as 'which is the Linux
> distro *I* use?
> (I've used a number, with Python, over the years)
>
> The better alignment is to match the version of Python with the book or
> course you are using as learning-materials. That way, there are unlikely
> to be surprises.

Noted on this.

>
> There are differences in Python implementations between Linux, Mac, and
> Windows. However, I can't think of a book or course which spends any
> time discussing them, or having a chapter which demands one or other OpSys.
>
> When you become more experienced two things will happen: firstly you
> will start using tools which enable the use of different versions of
> Python for different dev.projects; and secondly you will form your own
> opinions of "best"!
> (it's not difficult to change distro)
>
>
> PS most of us will qualify for RedHat's Developer program[me] and free
> copies of software.

I can download free copies of RHEL 7.x, 8.x, and 9.x :) Just that I
dunno which RHEL version is better. Is RHEL 9.0 the best out of 7.x,
8.x and 9.x?

> --
> Regards,
> =dn

Regards,

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 10:47, orzodk  wrote:
>
> Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming  writes:
>
> > noted with thanks. I have been using Linux for more than 10 years already
>
> Ah, if you're familiar with Redhat (RPM) based distributions, consider
> Fedora as you will have access to newer versions sooner.
>
> If you're more familiar with Debian (DEB) based distributions, consider
> Ubuntu, again, as the new version release cycle is twice a year.
>
> (Also, my apologies -- I meant to CC the list but failed to do so.)

I am actually quite familiar with many linux distros. I am familiar
with RPM-based linux distros as well as DEB-based linux distros.

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Kushal Kumaran]

On Thu, Aug 04 2022 at 10:22:41 AM, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming 
 wrote:
> Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python
> programming language?
>
> Good day from Singapore,
>
> May I know which linux distro is more conducive for learning the
> Python programming language?
>
> Since I have absolutely and totally FREE RHEL developer subscription
> (I don't need to spend a single cent), can I use Red Hat Enterprise
> Linux version 9.0 to learn Python?
>
> Is it the most popular linux distro for learning Python?
>
> I just want to know which linux distro and version is more conducive
> for learning Python. Because there are thousands of linux distros out
> there. And I just want to settle down on a particular linux distro and
> version.
>

The best one would be whatever you happen to have installed and for
which you understand system administration.  Beyond that, distribution
choice matters very little.  Every distribution I've used ships python3
packages, which was fine for learning the language.

-- 
regards,
kushal
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[dn]

On 04/08/2022 14.31, Paul Bryan wrote:
> I wouldn't say any particular Linux distribution is appreciably better
> for Python development than another. I would suggest using a version of
> a Linux distribution that supports a recent Python release (e.g. 3.9 or
> 3.10).

+1

As a Python-learner (there's no comment about current programming
expertise), it is unlikely to make any difference which Linux distro is
used.

Answers to such open-ended questions are usually seated in bias - which
in-turn is mostly likely to be the same answer as 'which is the Linux
distro *I* use?
(I've used a number, with Python, over the years)

The better alignment is to match the version of Python with the book or
course you are using as learning-materials. That way, there are unlikely
to be surprises.

There are differences in Python implementations between Linux, Mac, and
Windows. However, I can't think of a book or course which spends any
time discussing them, or having a chapter which demands one or other OpSys.

When you become more experienced two things will happen: firstly you
will start using tools which enable the use of different versions of
Python for different dev.projects; and secondly you will form your own
opinions of "best"!
(it's not difficult to change distro)


PS most of us will qualify for RedHat's Developer program[me] and free
copies of software.
-- 
Regards,
=dn
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python 
programming language?


Good day from Singapore,

May I know which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python 
programming language?


Since I have absolutely and totally FREE RHEL developer subscription (I 
don't need to spend a single cent), can I use Red Hat Enterprise Linux 
version 9.0 to learn Python?


Is it the most popular linux distro for learning Python?

I just want to know which linux distro and version is more conducive for 
learning Python. Because there are thousands of linux distros out there. 
And I just want to settle down on a particular linux distro and version.


Thank you.

Regards,

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore
4 Aug 2022 Thursday
Blogs:
https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.com
https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

I actually did a Google search for "which linux distro is best for python".

Link: 
https://www.google.com/search?q=which+linux+distro+is+best+for+python=1C1GCEA_enSG1005SG1005=ALiCzsYaL58MJsevR2Uc0nnWtmc7kWFbIg%3A1659580387580=4y_rYqWII8i7z7sPwPCtwAI=0ahUKEwjlhenbkqz5AhXI3XMBHUB4CygQ4dUDCA8=5=which+linux+distro+is+best+for+python_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgMyBQgAEIYDMgUIABCGAzoECCMQJzoECAAQQzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6CAgAEIAEELEDOggILhCABBCxAzoFCAAQkQI6BQguEIAEOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToKCAAQgAQQhwIQFDoGCAAQHhAWSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUABYljtg0D5oAXABeACAAesBiAG3E5IBBjM3LjAuMZgBAKABAcABAQ=gws-wiz

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 10:31, Paul Bryan  wrote:
>
> I wouldn't say any particular Linux distribution is appreciably better for 
> Python development than another. I would suggest using a version of a Linux 
> distribution that supports a recent Python release (e.g. 3.9 or 3.10).
>
> On Thu, 2022-08-04 at 10:22 +0800, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:
>
> Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python
> programming language?
>
> Good day from Singapore,
>
> May I know which linux distro is more conducive for learning the
> Python programming language?
>
> Since I have absolutely and totally FREE RHEL developer subscription
> (I don't need to spend a single cent), can I use Red Hat Enterprise
> Linux version 9.0 to learn Python?
>
> Is it the most popular linux distro for learning Python?
>
> I just want to know which linux distro and version is more conducive
> for learning Python. Because there are thousands of linux distros out
> there. And I just want to settle down on a particular linux distro and
> version.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
> Targeted Individual in Singapore
> 4 Aug 2022 Thursday
> Blogs:
> https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.com
> https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com
>
>
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Paul Bryan]

I wouldn't say any particular Linux distribution is appreciably better
for Python development than another. I would suggest using a version of
a Linux distribution that supports a recent Python release (e.g. 3.9 or
3.10).

On Thu, 2022-08-04 at 10:22 +0800, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
wrote:
> Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python
> programming language?
> 
> Good day from Singapore,
> 
> May I know which linux distro is more conducive for learning the
> Python programming language?
> 
> Since I have absolutely and totally FREE RHEL developer subscription
> (I don't need to spend a single cent), can I use Red Hat Enterprise
> Linux version 9.0 to learn Python?
> 
> Is it the most popular linux distro for learning Python?
> 
> I just want to know which linux distro and version is more conducive
> for learning Python. Because there are thousands of linux distros out
> there. And I just want to settle down on a particular linux distro
> and
> version.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
> Targeted Individual in Singapore
> 4 Aug 2022 Thursday
> Blogs:
> https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.com
> https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python programming language?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

Subject: Which linux distro is more conducive for learning the Python
programming language?

Good day from Singapore,

May I know which linux distro is more conducive for learning the
Python programming language?

Since I have absolutely and totally FREE RHEL developer subscription
(I don't need to spend a single cent), can I use Red Hat Enterprise
Linux version 9.0 to learn Python?

Is it the most popular linux distro for learning Python?

I just want to know which linux distro and version is more conducive
for learning Python. Because there are thousands of linux distros out
there. And I just want to settle down on a particular linux distro and
version.

Thank you.

Regards,

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming
Targeted Individual in Singapore
4 Aug 2022 Thursday
Blogs:
https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.com
https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: A decade or so of Python programming, and I've never thought to "for-elif"

[Rob Cliffe via Python-list]

If for ... else was spelt more intelligibly, e.g. for ... nobreak, there 
would be no temptation to use anything like `elif'. `nobreakif' wouldn't 
be a keyword.

Rob Cliffe

On 30/11/2021 06:24, Chris Angelico wrote:

for ns in namespaces:
 if name in ns:
 print("Found!")
 break
elif name.isupper():
 print("All-caps name that wasn't found")

This actually doesn't work. I have been programming in Python for well
over a decade, and never before been in a situation where this would
be useful.

As YAGNIs go, this is right up there.

(For the record, since this was the last thing in the function, I just
made the break a return. Alternatively, an extra indentation level
"else: if name.isupper():" wouldn't have been that terrible.)

Your random piece of amusement for today.

ChrisA


--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

A decade or so of Python programming, and I've never thought to "for-elif"

[Chris Angelico]

for ns in namespaces:
if name in ns:
print("Found!")
break
elif name.isupper():
print("All-caps name that wasn't found")

This actually doesn't work. I have been programming in Python for well
over a decade, and never before been in a situation where this would
be useful.

As YAGNIs go, this is right up there.

(For the record, since this was the last thing in the function, I just
made the break a return. Alternatively, an extra indentation level
"else: if name.isupper():" wouldn't have been that terrible.)

Your random piece of amusement for today.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Start Python programming

[Russell via Python-list]

Gazoo  wrote:
> 
> 
> I'd like to start learning Python programming. What sites/tutorials
> could you recommend for beginner, please.
> 

I liked the book found at https://automatetheboringstuff.com/

You can read the whole book online. I think you used to be able to
download a copy too. It has lots of practical examples and is easy to
read/follow.

-- 
rust
0x68caecc97f6a90122e51c0692c88d9cb6b58a3dc
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Re: Start Python programming

[Alan Gauld via Python-list]

On 27/04/2021 18:32, Gazoo wrote:

> I'd like to start learning Python programming. What sites/tutorials
> could you recommend for beginner, please.

There is a getting started page on the python web site with
links to guide you to many listed suggestions - books,
web tutorials, video courses etc.

https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/

Which one suits you best depends on many factors both objective and
subjective.


-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: Start Python programming

[Abrantes Araujo Silva Filho]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:32:22 +, Gazoo wrote:

> I'd like to start learning Python programming. What sites/tutorials
> could you recommend for beginner, please.

Have you tried this book?

https://greenteapress.com/wp/think-python-2e/

It is a good book, written by Allan B. Downey, which is available for 
free in HTML or PDF. If you wish, you can buy a copy on Amazon as well.


-
Abrantes
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Re: Start Python programming

[dn via Python-list]

On 28/04/2021 05.32, Gazoo wrote:
> 
> 
> I'd like to start learning Python programming. What sites/tutorials
> could you recommend for beginner, please.


Start with the Python Tutorial
(https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html), thereafter there are
other 'docs' at the same site.

There are plenty of books and both $free and paid courses available
on-line, to suit many preferred ways of learning, and covering many
specialised applications of the language.
-- 
Regards,
=dn
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Start Python programming

[Gazoo]

I'd like to start learning Python programming. What sites/tutorials
could you recommend for beginner, please.


--
Gazoo


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Can I earn a lot of money by learning and mastering the Python programming language?

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

Subject: Can I earn a lot of money by learning and mastering the Python
programming language?

Good day from Singapore,

I am an IT consultant with a System Integrator (SI)/computer firm in
Singapore, specializing in Systems/Infrastructure and Computer Networking.
I am thinking of creating an extra avenue/stream of income by learning
extra skills and becoming a programmer or software developer/engineer. I
hope it is not too late for a person of my age. Can I earn a lot of money
by learning and mastering the Python programming language? Thought I would
like to find out first before I jump into the bandwagon and investing my
time into learning Python. Besides Python, what other programming languages
can make me earn a lot of money? Are Python, Java and C++ the most popular
and most sought after (by employers) programming languages in the world?

I am looking forward to your advice.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming, 42 years old as of 21 Jan 2021
Thursday, is a TARGETED INDIVIDUAL living in Singapore. He is an IT
Consultant with a System Integrator (SI)/computer firm in Singapore. He is
an IT enthusiast.





-BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-

The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html



Singaporean Targeted Individual Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's
Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug
2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):

[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

-END EMAIL SIGNATURE-
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Re: Seeking guidance to start a career in python programming

[Cousin Stanley]

ankur gupta wrote:

> Good Morning to All,

> My name is Ankur Gupta and I wish to seek guidance from you. 
> 
> I belong to a non-computer science background 
> but have always been attracted to this field. 
> 
> I had computer science in class 12th ( Where I learned C++ 
> and Python ) but I did Mechanical Engineering instead in college. 
> 
> I wish to pursue a career in Python programming 
> and therefore undertook 2 online certification courses 
> in python but besides this, my progress is almost stalled.
> 
> Request you all to please guide how I can move forward 
> with my current learning of the language and also steps 
> that I can take to pursue a career in this field.

  Mechanical Engineers are needed 
  in an almost endlessly wide array
  of applications ...

from  nano-bots in bio-engineering
  to space-bots sampling soil samples on asteroids

  You might consider applying the Python knowledge
  that you have acquired to endeavors in the field
  that you are most familar with.


-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Seeking guidance to start a career in python programming

[ankur gupta]

Good Morning to All,
My name is Ankur Gupta and I wish to seek guidance from you. I belong to a
non-computer science background but have always been attracted to this
field. I had computer science in class 12th (Where I learned C++ and
Python) but I did Mechanical Engineering instead in college. I wish to
pursue a career in Python programming and therefore undertook 2 online
certification courses in python but besides this, my progress is almost
stalled.

Request you all to please guide how I can move forward with my current
learning of the language and also steps that I can take to pursue a career
in this field.

Once again thanks to you all for your time and consideration and I look
forward to your response


Regards
Ankur Gupta
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Re: Issues Download the Latest Version of Python Programming Language

[Mats Wichmann]

On 7/24/20 12:05 AM, Ejiofor Chidinma Peace wrote:
> Dear Sir/Madam,
> I trust this email finds you well.
> 
> I have been having issues downloading the latest version of Python
> programming Language on my PC (windows 10 operating system). Kindly assist
> in resolving this issue at your earliest convenience.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Sorry to not be helpful, but you are going to have to be more descriptive.

"Having issues downloading" tells us nothing that we can use to help you
with.




-- 
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Issues Download the Latest Version of Python Programming Language

[Ejiofor Chidinma Peace]

Dear Sir/Madam,
I trust this email finds you well.

I have been having issues downloading the latest version of Python
programming Language on my PC (windows 10 operating system). Kindly assist
in resolving this issue at your earliest convenience.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Yours sincerely,
Ejiofor, Chidinma Peace.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

My Python programming book for kids is free for 48 hours

[Kent Tong]

Hi,

If you're interested, please get it for free at:
https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Kids-can-learn-Python-ebook/dp/B084CY2L43/ref=sr_1_3

This is a set of training materials I used to successfully teach Python to kids 
as little as 10 years old. The online learning environment are freely available 
at https://p4kweb.appspot.com and the first four chapters are available at 
https://www.istudycenter.org/yes-kids-can-learn-python.
Lesson 1: Call a function & use variables
Lesson 2: Expressions and text strings
Lesson 3: Perform various calculations based values input by the user
Lesson 4: Use the tank to draw shapes with its bombs
Lesson 5: Show an input box and use "if" in Python
Lesson 6: Prompt for multiple values and display information in a message box
Lesson 7: increase the value of a variable and call a function that gives back 
information
Lesson 8: Use "if" without "else"
Lesson 9: Use "if" to guard against an operation that might fail
Lesson 10: 2D coordinate system for positioning objects
Lesson 11: Respond to mouse clicks and kick start a continuous process
Lesson 12: Use random numbers
Lesson 13: Use 'and' or embedded 'if's
Lesson 14: Respond to key presses
Lesson 15: Respond to key presses (2)
Lesson 16: Boolean values and stop a continuous process
Lesson 17: stop a continuous process (2)
Lesson 18: Steer a continuous process
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 21 November 2019 11:27:11 Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

>   The only time I had to do less than "automated" installs was my first
> Python -- v1.4 (maybe 1.3) on a Commodore Amiga.
>
That takes us back up the log quite a ways, but it also puts early python 
up against Bill Hawes and his truly did it all, Arexx. All others fell 
by the wayside once we had a compiler for Arexx. But for all the time it 
took Bill to write that, commode-door stiffed him, never paying him a 
dime. He wasn't the only one they stiffed of course.
>
> --
>   Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
>   wlfr...@ix.netcom.comhttp://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

On 2019-11-21 10:02 GMT, Nick Sarbicki  wrote:
>> The simplest thing is to use the 3.8.0 python.org installers.  This use
>> pip to add anything you consider essential.
>
> As mentioned previously, you do need to make sure that they tick the box to
> add Python to the PATH on windows. It is almost guaranteed someone will not
> do that and will then have a very hard time figuring out what has gone
> wrong (happens to me every time I teach).
>
> Considering that this is a lecture and not a workshop I'm assuming the
> students aren't actively installing and running python while you are
> teaching. In which case, whilst I would mention pip, I would probably just
> have the required libs preinstalled on my computer ready to go. Learning
> pip is easy to do and if they're interested later can be taught separately.
> But watching someone installing packages on the terminal is not very
> interesting. On the other hand if the students are actively following along
> and running python within the lecture then they will obviously need to be
> shown how to do this.

So I asked someone to try test installing Python 3 and using pip to
install SciPy, and it failed even with my remote guidance.  Hopefully
I’ll have some time with a Windows PC in the coming weeks to test
myself, but yeah, installation seems like it’ll be a problem.  In our
case we failed twice b/c we didn’t have vcredist and vc++ build tools,
but still failed when we instaled them: IDK if it wants the entire
Visual Studio, which is a whopping 20G of download.

My plan is to prepare a guide for them to get set up on their computers,
but not for the lecture.  It’s informal, but I don’t really want to
lose time with a small installfest.  The instructions are aimed at easy
set up after or before class only.

Guess I can help those who fail later on private time...

> Also whilst the remit of the lecture is to showcase how to do statistics in
> Python, I wouldn't take this as an absolute limit. I would go through
> examples of graphs, probably taking inspiration from
> https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations and using something like
> dash (https://dash.plot.ly/). I would also try to show more creative ways
> of playing with data - for instance I worked on this project dedicated to
> showing data using GIFs (
> https://datagifmaker.withgoogle.com/editor/racetrack - don't look too hard
> at the representations though).

These are some beautiful links, and especially that first one I’ll
definitely use it for my Pearson Correlation mini-lesson next week, so
thanks a lot!

> But instead of spending a whole lecture explicitly on statistics I would
> probably use the last 10 minutes showcasing other uses of Python which are
> (apologies to those who find statistics utterly encapsulating) a bit more
> interesting. For instance I have a <200 LOC game of pong (technically a
> _graphical_ user interface) which is usually fun to showcase (
> https://gitlab.com/ndevox/pygame-pong/blob/master/pong.py). I'd also be
> tempted to show off things like websites (which could display statistics
> publicly), chatbots (which, if using something like an NLTK classifier, are
> essentially statistical machines) etc. Think about what interests you the
> most and see if you can display it on the screen in some way.
>
> Essentially whilst it is very important to show them to make graphs in
> various ways, you'll probably struggle to captivate the entire audience
> with this. Whereas ending with some slightly wilder but more enticing
> examples can make those who weren't interested in the statistics want to
> pay more attention to what you have been saying.
>
> - Nick
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 11:33 PM MRAB  wrote:
>
>> On 2019-11-20 21:58, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> > On 11/20/2019 11:09 AM, Göktuğ Kayaalp wrote:
>> >
>> >> The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
>> >> everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
>> >> them.
>> >
>> > The simplest thing is to use the 3.8.0 python.org installers.  This use
>> > pip to add anything you consider essential.
>> >
>> For Windows, I use "Windows x86-64 executable installer" for 64-bit and
>> "Windows x86 executable installer" for 32-bit from
>> https://www.python.org/downloads/windows/.
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>

-- 
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 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Nick Sarbicki]

> The simplest thing is to use the 3.8.0 python.org installers.  This use
> pip to add anything you consider essential.

As mentioned previously, you do need to make sure that they tick the box to
add Python to the PATH on windows. It is almost guaranteed someone will not
do that and will then have a very hard time figuring out what has gone
wrong (happens to me every time I teach).

Considering that this is a lecture and not a workshop I'm assuming the
students aren't actively installing and running python while you are
teaching. In which case, whilst I would mention pip, I would probably just
have the required libs preinstalled on my computer ready to go. Learning
pip is easy to do and if they're interested later can be taught separately.
But watching someone installing packages on the terminal is not very
interesting. On the other hand if the students are actively following along
and running python within the lecture then they will obviously need to be
shown how to do this.

Also whilst the remit of the lecture is to showcase how to do statistics in
Python, I wouldn't take this as an absolute limit. I would go through
examples of graphs, probably taking inspiration from
https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations and using something like
dash (https://dash.plot.ly/). I would also try to show more creative ways
of playing with data - for instance I worked on this project dedicated to
showing data using GIFs (
https://datagifmaker.withgoogle.com/editor/racetrack - don't look too hard
at the representations though).

But instead of spending a whole lecture explicitly on statistics I would
probably use the last 10 minutes showcasing other uses of Python which are
(apologies to those who find statistics utterly encapsulating) a bit more
interesting. For instance I have a <200 LOC game of pong (technically a
_graphical_ user interface) which is usually fun to showcase (
https://gitlab.com/ndevox/pygame-pong/blob/master/pong.py). I'd also be
tempted to show off things like websites (which could display statistics
publicly), chatbots (which, if using something like an NLTK classifier, are
essentially statistical machines) etc. Think about what interests you the
most and see if you can display it on the screen in some way.

Essentially whilst it is very important to show them to make graphs in
various ways, you'll probably struggle to captivate the entire audience
with this. Whereas ending with some slightly wilder but more enticing
examples can make those who weren't interested in the statistics want to
pay more attention to what you have been saying.

- Nick

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 11:33 PM MRAB  wrote:

> On 2019-11-20 21:58, Terry Reedy wrote:
> > On 11/20/2019 11:09 AM, Göktuğ Kayaalp wrote:
> >
> >> The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
> >> everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
> >> them.
> >
> > The simplest thing is to use the 3.8.0 python.org installers.  This use
> > pip to add anything you consider essential.
> >
> For Windows, I use "Windows x86-64 executable installer" for 64-bit and
> "Windows x86 executable installer" for 32-bit from
> https://www.python.org/downloads/windows/.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[MRAB]

On 2019-11-20 21:58, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 11/20/2019 11:09 AM, Göktuğ Kayaalp wrote:


The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
them.


The simplest thing is to use the 3.8.0 python.org installers.  This use
pip to add anything you consider essential.

For Windows, I use "Windows x86-64 executable installer" for 64-bit and 
"Windows x86 executable installer" for 32-bit from 
https://www.python.org/downloads/windows/.

--
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Besides the mistakes in the pdf (random.shuffle) the idea is to get the
right environment then py basics then numpy+pandas then viz seaborn or
minimal matplotlib

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
http://www.pythonmembers.club | https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ
Mauritius

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 00:49 Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer, 
wrote:

> I have a draft of a concise py book for data people which i am preparing,
> might be useful to you.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IKLBuJJWQKvcTWu-REsgm-JUGSvytBUu/view?usp=drivesdk
>
> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
> http://www.pythonmembers.club | https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ
> Mauritius
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 20:54 Göktuğ Kayaalp,  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am responsible of giving my colleagues in from linguistics MA
>> programme an intro to Python, and programming, with a focus on
>> statistics.  It’ll be a single lecture, and I probably won’t be able to
>> do more than give some demos and then some pointers to actually properly
>> learn how to use the tools.
>>
>> The problem is I’m a rather techie power user and my audience the exact
>> opposite, so I feel like I could make use of some guidance as to how to
>> bridge the gap and be useful.
>>
>> I want to stick to Python 3, demo them a few basics of programming, then
>> how to use matplotlib, Jupyter notebooks (is this what IPyNBs became?),
>> and some descriptive statistics.  All this needs to happen within the
>> span of a single lecture (tho if people are interested I’ll offer to do
>> a few more in our own time), so 45min~1h.
>>
>> The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
>> everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
>> them.  I feel like choosing one of the distros is a good idea: I could
>> just put the installers on a USB and hand it out, or just send them a
>> message with simple steps to follow and set themselves up beforehand.
>> Thing is, IDK nothing about distros.  Anaconda seems to be the best
>> options, but comes with complications like an IDE, as opposed to just
>> working with notebooks, and is huge.  Also, seems to include R stuff.
>> Spyder looks nice, but I don’t want to freak people out with such an
>> unfamiliar environment as an IDE just within the first few moments they
>> encounter programming.  These are all humanities people.  Another
>> problem is that Anaconda has ‘conda’, a non-standard package manager,
>> and I’m kinda vary of introducing that to people: should I talk of pip,
>> should I leave it out?  I feel like I should just stick to pip and leave
>> conda out, but IDK.  Python(x,y) is interesting, but it’s apparently
>> Py2k only, and that’s a no-no.
>>
>> So, am I better off telling people to install Anaconda, or plain Py3k +
>> a selection of packages (which maybe I make into a .zip or something)?
>>
>> Then, I need good pointers to hand out: links to good introductions to
>> Python, programming, and statistical use of Python.  Thing is, I’ve
>> always learned the hacker way, i.e. skip the docs, tinker with stuff.
>> Thus, IDK of any good resources out of experience, and I want to ask you
>> all for some recommendations.  I prefer free and tutorial-like stuff,
>> but I’ll teach them how to use the stdlib reference too.
>>
>> What are some good self-teaching material for those who are new to
>> programming and Python, and need to mainly do statistics with
>> experimental data?
>>
>> Finally, I’m looking for recommendations on what to show and how.  My
>> current master plan is
>>
>> - what’s the use of programming for a linguist
>> - an abstract idea of what programming is
>> - basic intro to Python syntax
>> - demo how to load and clean up some data
>> - demo matplotlib
>> - demo jupyter notebooks
>> - compare with alternatives: R, SPSS, other?
>> - briefly refer to libraries for
>>   - NLP
>>   - AI?
>> - lots of links on
>>   - how to learn enough coding for number crunching and plotmaking
>>   - how to make use of stdlib reference
>>   - how to find and utilise packages and their docs
>>   - ...?
>>
>> I plan to produce a handout with all this info neatly organised, and
>> just go with a (few) Jupyter notebooks for the rest (resisting hard the
>> urge to go in with Emacs Org Mode instead :)).
>>
>> I’m looking forward to any recommendations from youse.  The deadline is
>> about a month and a half away, and I really want to give people
>> something operationable.  People are stuck with BS like SPSS, too simple
>> and too pricy, when a fe

Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Terry Reedy]

On 11/20/2019 11:09 AM, Göktuğ Kayaalp wrote:


The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
them.


The simplest thing is to use the 3.8.0 python.org installers.  This use 
pip to add anything you consider essential.


--
Terry Jan Reedy


--
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

On 2019-11-20 16:03 -05, Andrew Z  wrote:
> Look into https://repl.it

Sadly this apparaently can’t do plots.

> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 15:43 Göktuğ Kayaalp  wrote:
>
>>
>> Andrew Z   wrote:
>> > Goktug,
>> >   Im not clear what is the objective of the lecture? I understand it is
>> an
>> > intro, but what are you trying to achieve?
>>
>> Basically I need to introduce my non-programmer friends to Python and
>> show them that they can easily learn to do their statistics with it,
>> produce nice graphs, etc.  And I need to give them nice pointers so that
>> they can self-teach w/o much friction.
>>
>> > I didnt read all the details, but maybe you can look into creating a
>> > docker/virtual box image with everything preinstalled.
>> > Good luck.
>>
>> That’d definitely be my cup of tea, but sadly also too involved /
>> technical for my audience of absolute non-techies.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -gk.
>>
>> --
>> İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp   
>>  024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
>>  40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>
>
> [2:text/html Show Save:noname (5kB)]
>

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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

On 2019-11-20 13:29 -07, Akkana Peck  wrote:
> Chris Angelico writes:
>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 4:42 AM Nick Sarbicki  
>> wrote:
>> > RE Conda and distros - I'd forget about them, in my experience you may as
>> > well learn to use pip and install what you need that way, in the long term
>> 
>> Agreed. 
>
> More agreement. Someone at the local makerspace recently tried to
> teach a beginning Python class; the first hour and a half lecture
> was entirely devoted to trying to get Anaconda installed on
> everyone's machines, and most of the people still didn't have it
> installed by the end. I heard a lot of the people from the first
> lecture gave up and didn't come back for the second lecture because
> they still didn't have a working environment. Of the people who did
> return, I saw some of them (fairly technical users to begin with, just
> not in Python) later struggling with conda updates that went wrong.

Wow.  This was good to know, thanks a lot!

> Installing Python on Windows isn't trivial, but if you lead them
> through each of the steps (hint: be sure not to miss the small
> checkbox about adding Python to the path -- you have to scroll down
> to the bottom of the options list to see it, and it's not checked by
> default) it shouldn't be too bad. Also, have a copy of the installer
> available on a USB stick or three unless the lecture hall is
> guaranteed to have flawless wi-fi.

Again, great tip, thanks!

> Can you get a couple of Windows and Mac using friends (who don't
> already have Python) to help you try out the installers before the class?
> Or, for Windows, you could try one of these virtualbox images:
> https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/

I’ve just asked my brother to try it out for me.  Later on, I’ll try
with my friends.

Thanks a lot for the link, I’ll try it out.

Cheers,

-gk.


-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp   
 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

Chris Angelico  wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 4:42 AM Nick Sarbicki  
>wrote:
>> RE Conda and distros - I'd forget about them, in my experience you may as
>> well learn to use pip and install what you need that way, in the long term
>> it is faster and more flexible. Python generally supplies a perfectly good
>> installer for most operating systems at python.org - no need for anything
>> else. Keeping it to just standard python (+ some libs you don't explicitly
>> need to explain) makes it less complex.
>
>Agreed. In fact, given the tight context here, I would go even further
>and stick to JUST the standard library - there's already way more in
>there than you need for a single lecture. Maybe just name-drop pip and
>hint at the fact that there's a lot more to Python than just what you
>see here, but other than that, keep it really simple.

I’d be extatic if I could do that, but AFAIK there are no plotting
libraries in the stdlib.  ‘statistics’ is nice, but lacks stuff we need
often as linguists, like chi^2, t-tests, correlations, (m)anova, 

>> In summary I'd aim to inspire not to teach - so show some basics at the
>> beginning to show how accessible it can be, and then feel free to jump off
>> into advanced python land to showcase what is possible using whatever you
>> are most comfortable with. Essentially show them they can learn python, and
>> then inspire them to want to learn python.
>>
>
>Absolutely agreed. Your job is not to turn them into programmers. Your
>job is just to inspire them - to show them possibilities, to excite
>them, to empower them to play.

Thanks!

-gk.

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp   
 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Andrew Z]

Look into https://repl.it


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 15:43 Göktuğ Kayaalp  wrote:

>
> Andrew Z   wrote:
> > Goktug,
> >   Im not clear what is the objective of the lecture? I understand it is
> an
> > intro, but what are you trying to achieve?
>
> Basically I need to introduce my non-programmer friends to Python and
> show them that they can easily learn to do their statistics with it,
> produce nice graphs, etc.  And I need to give them nice pointers so that
> they can self-teach w/o much friction.
>
> > I didnt read all the details, but maybe you can look into creating a
> > docker/virtual box image with everything preinstalled.
> > Good luck.
>
> That’d definitely be my cup of tea, but sadly also too involved /
> technical for my audience of absolute non-techies.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -gk.
>
> --
> İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp   
>  024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
>  40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

Nick Sarbicki  wrote:
> Hi Goktug,
>
> Firstly good luck, inspiring a crowd of people who have never learnt to
> code (and probably never expected to) to want to code sounds like a
> daunting task.
> 
> I think you have broadly the right idea in that you want to spend only a
> little bit of time on the basic syntax before demoing what you can do with
> the language. I would spend the beginning of the lecture focusing on how
> readable code can be - an attempt to make it less scary to people who
> haven't touched code before - and then spend the rest of the time showing
> the fun things you can do with it.

I’m lucky that when I introduced the idea, my peers were really excited
about it.  Readability is indeed a nice idea, because they are not
familiar with coding and don’t really know how straight forward a thing
it actually is, at least when all you’re trying to do is load some CSV
files and do some t-tests, chi^2, correlation, and plots.

> I can't see trying to take students from no code to competent SciPy users
> in one lecture as a possible feat. So it would be best to simply inspire
> them to want to learn more themselves. In which case I'd encourage you to
> have a think as to what would be the most inspiring examples? Are jupyter
> notebooks on their own something that inspires? Probably not - although
> they are nice for showcasing code in. Is ETL exciting? Maybe in extremely
> rare cases... NLP, AI etc can be pretty fun and powerful. Graphing
> libraries such as MatPlotLib as they are visual is always good as well. Can
> demo some (probably useless) 3D charts or XKCD mode if you want.

If I could demo say an NN, that’d be crazy interesting, but sadly IDK
nothing about the practicalities of AI in general.  It comes up a lot
and people know nothing about it.  If you have some pointers for a good
tutorial tho, I’d try my hand at it.

I haven’t used notebooks before, and I’m not really a fan: they look
heavy-weight and not much better than Org Mode codeblocks to me.  But I
can’t risk introducing these people to Emacs, they look at it in weid
ways when they see it on my laptop already :)

My plan is, mostly focus on graphs.  We’ll have just learned some
advanced-ish statistics stuff by the time I’ll present, so that’d
probably be very interesting to everybody.

> RE Conda and distros - I'd forget about them, in my experience you may as
> well learn to use pip and install what you need that way, in the long term
> it is faster and more flexible. Python generally supplies a perfectly good
> installer for most operating systems at python.org - no need for anything
> else. Keeping it to just standard python (+ some libs you don't explicitly
> need to explain) makes it less complex. Also - as biased as it sounds
> coming from a Python developer - I'm not sure I'd want to discuss
> alternatives (R, SPSS etc.) as it just provides more confusing choices.

This was the confirmation I was looking for :) Then I’ll just install
SciPy packages on a plain Python and call it done.  Is there a way I
distribute an installer / a portable zipball that comes with these
packages?  Or do you think a non-programmer could follow the
instructions to install?  I have friends with Macs and PCs that I think
I can use for testing procedures.

W.r.t. alternatives, I’ve already heard the statistician that helps us
with learning stats mention it, so my idea was that I could introduce
some alts and explain why Python is a good choice.  But if that’s going
to be confusing, I can skip that.

> In summary I'd aim to inspire not to teach - so show some basics at the
> beginning to show how accessible it can be, and then feel free to jump off
> into advanced python land to showcase what is possible using whatever you
> are most comfortable with. Essentially show them they can learn python, and
> then inspire them to want to learn python.

That’s kinda my goal: inspire, excite, and give good links so that they
can get on with learning quickly.

BTW, FWIW, I’ll make the material and code for these lectures available
on GitHub once I’ll have them prepared.  If anybody will be interested,
I may even try to make a video version and put it up somewhere.

> Feel free to ignore all of these thoughts, they are highly subjective.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts!  I really appreciate your help.

Cheers,

-gk.

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp   
 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 7:44 AM Göktuğ Kayaalp  wrote:
>
>
> Andrew Z   wrote:
> > Goktug,
> >   Im not clear what is the objective of the lecture? I understand it is an
> > intro, but what are you trying to achieve?
>
> Basically I need to introduce my non-programmer friends to Python and
> show them that they can easily learn to do their statistics with it,
> produce nice graphs, etc.  And I need to give them nice pointers so that
> they can self-teach w/o much friction.
>

Oh, okay. Producing graphs can't really be done with just the standard
library, so I withdraw my earlier recommendation to minimize
dependencies. It means you're going to need to spend a bit of your
time making sure they can pip-install things, but on the upside,
you're going to have way more "wow" factor from a few simple lines of
pyplot code that pop up a pretty little graph.

ChrisA
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Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

I have a draft of a concise py book for data people which i am preparing,
might be useful to you.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IKLBuJJWQKvcTWu-REsgm-JUGSvytBUu/view?usp=drivesdk

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
http://www.pythonmembers.club | https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ
Mauritius

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 20:54 Göktuğ Kayaalp,  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am responsible of giving my colleagues in from linguistics MA
> programme an intro to Python, and programming, with a focus on
> statistics.  It’ll be a single lecture, and I probably won’t be able to
> do more than give some demos and then some pointers to actually properly
> learn how to use the tools.
>
> The problem is I’m a rather techie power user and my audience the exact
> opposite, so I feel like I could make use of some guidance as to how to
> bridge the gap and be useful.
>
> I want to stick to Python 3, demo them a few basics of programming, then
> how to use matplotlib, Jupyter notebooks (is this what IPyNBs became?),
> and some descriptive statistics.  All this needs to happen within the
> span of a single lecture (tho if people are interested I’ll offer to do
> a few more in our own time), so 45min~1h.
>
> The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
> everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
> them.  I feel like choosing one of the distros is a good idea: I could
> just put the installers on a USB and hand it out, or just send them a
> message with simple steps to follow and set themselves up beforehand.
> Thing is, IDK nothing about distros.  Anaconda seems to be the best
> options, but comes with complications like an IDE, as opposed to just
> working with notebooks, and is huge.  Also, seems to include R stuff.
> Spyder looks nice, but I don’t want to freak people out with such an
> unfamiliar environment as an IDE just within the first few moments they
> encounter programming.  These are all humanities people.  Another
> problem is that Anaconda has ‘conda’, a non-standard package manager,
> and I’m kinda vary of introducing that to people: should I talk of pip,
> should I leave it out?  I feel like I should just stick to pip and leave
> conda out, but IDK.  Python(x,y) is interesting, but it’s apparently
> Py2k only, and that’s a no-no.
>
> So, am I better off telling people to install Anaconda, or plain Py3k +
> a selection of packages (which maybe I make into a .zip or something)?
>
> Then, I need good pointers to hand out: links to good introductions to
> Python, programming, and statistical use of Python.  Thing is, I’ve
> always learned the hacker way, i.e. skip the docs, tinker with stuff.
> Thus, IDK of any good resources out of experience, and I want to ask you
> all for some recommendations.  I prefer free and tutorial-like stuff,
> but I’ll teach them how to use the stdlib reference too.
>
> What are some good self-teaching material for those who are new to
> programming and Python, and need to mainly do statistics with
> experimental data?
>
> Finally, I’m looking for recommendations on what to show and how.  My
> current master plan is
>
> - what’s the use of programming for a linguist
> - an abstract idea of what programming is
> - basic intro to Python syntax
> - demo how to load and clean up some data
> - demo matplotlib
> - demo jupyter notebooks
> - compare with alternatives: R, SPSS, other?
> - briefly refer to libraries for
>   - NLP
>   - AI?
> - lots of links on
>   - how to learn enough coding for number crunching and plotmaking
>   - how to make use of stdlib reference
>   - how to find and utilise packages and their docs
>   - ...?
>
> I plan to produce a handout with all this info neatly organised, and
> just go with a (few) Jupyter notebooks for the rest (resisting hard the
> urge to go in with Emacs Org Mode instead :)).
>
> I’m looking forward to any recommendations from youse.  The deadline is
> about a month and a half away, and I really want to give people
> something operationable.  People are stuck with BS like SPSS, too simple
> and too pricy, when a few lines of Python (or R) is all they need.  I
> came here because IDK teaching about this stuff, and I haven’t left the
> comfort zones of a programmer ever before, so this is some new
> experience for me and I don’t want to botch it.
>
> Thanks a lot in advance,
>
>Göktuğ.
>
> --
> İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp   <https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
>  024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
>  40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

Andrew Z   wrote:
> Goktug,
>   Im not clear what is the objective of the lecture? I understand it is an
> intro, but what are you trying to achieve?

Basically I need to introduce my non-programmer friends to Python and
show them that they can easily learn to do their statistics with it,
produce nice graphs, etc.  And I need to give them nice pointers so that
they can self-teach w/o much friction.

> I didnt read all the details, but maybe you can look into creating a
> docker/virtual box image with everything preinstalled.
> Good luck.

That’d definitely be my cup of tea, but sadly also too involved /
technical for my audience of absolute non-techies.

Cheers,

-gk.

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp   
 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Akkana Peck]

Chris Angelico writes:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 4:42 AM Nick Sarbicki  
> wrote:
> > RE Conda and distros - I'd forget about them, in my experience you may as
> > well learn to use pip and install what you need that way, in the long term
> 
> Agreed. 

More agreement. Someone at the local makerspace recently tried to
teach a beginning Python class; the first hour and a half lecture
was entirely devoted to trying to get Anaconda installed on
everyone's machines, and most of the people still didn't have it
installed by the end. I heard a lot of the people from the first
lecture gave up and didn't come back for the second lecture because
they still didn't have a working environment. Of the people who did
return, I saw some of them (fairly technical users to begin with, just
not in Python) later struggling with conda updates that went wrong.

Installing Python on Windows isn't trivial, but if you lead them
through each of the steps (hint: be sure not to miss the small
checkbox about adding Python to the path -- you have to scroll down
to the bottom of the options list to see it, and it's not checked by
default) it shouldn't be too bad. Also, have a copy of the installer
available on a USB stick or three unless the lecture hall is
guaranteed to have flawless wi-fi.

Can you get a couple of Windows and Mac using friends (who don't
already have Python) to help you try out the installers before the class?
Or, for Windows, you could try one of these virtualbox images:
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/

> In fact, given the tight context here, I would go even further
> and stick to JUST the standard library - there's already way more in
> there than you need for a single lecture. Maybe just name-drop pip and

For a general Python class I'd agree, but since these are linguists,
it will help to have a linguistics package or two to show how Python
can help them in their work.

That means that if you don't use conda, you should probably have
them create a virtualenv so they can run pip safely.

> > In summary I'd aim to inspire not to teach - so show some basics at the
> > beginning to show how accessible it can be, and then feel free to jump off
> > into advanced python land to showcase what is possible using whatever you
> > are most comfortable with. Essentially show them they can learn python, and
> > then inspire them to want to learn python.
> 
> Absolutely agreed. Your job is not to turn them into programmers. Your
> job is just to inspire them - to show them possibilities, to excite
> them, to empower them to play.

More agreement.

But that's why it's important to have linguistics packages. If you
can give them a simple program that actually does something useful
and relevant to their jobs, that will be a lot more inspiring than
implementing Hello World or Fibonacci numbers or even web scraping.

...Akkana
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 4:42 AM Nick Sarbicki  wrote:
> RE Conda and distros - I'd forget about them, in my experience you may as
> well learn to use pip and install what you need that way, in the long term
> it is faster and more flexible. Python generally supplies a perfectly good
> installer for most operating systems at python.org - no need for anything
> else. Keeping it to just standard python (+ some libs you don't explicitly
> need to explain) makes it less complex.

Agreed. In fact, given the tight context here, I would go even further
and stick to JUST the standard library - there's already way more in
there than you need for a single lecture. Maybe just name-drop pip and
hint at the fact that there's a lot more to Python than just what you
see here, but other than that, keep it really simple.

> In summary I'd aim to inspire not to teach - so show some basics at the
> beginning to show how accessible it can be, and then feel free to jump off
> into advanced python land to showcase what is possible using whatever you
> are most comfortable with. Essentially show them they can learn python, and
> then inspire them to want to learn python.
>

Absolutely agreed. Your job is not to turn them into programmers. Your
job is just to inspire them - to show them possibilities, to excite
them, to empower them to play.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Nick Sarbicki]

Hi Goktug,

Firstly good luck, inspiring a crowd of people who have never learnt to
code (and probably never expected to) to want to code sounds like a
daunting task.

I think you have broadly the right idea in that you want to spend only a
little bit of time on the basic syntax before demoing what you can do with
the language. I would spend the beginning of the lecture focusing on how
readable code can be - an attempt to make it less scary to people who
haven't touched code before - and then spend the rest of the time showing
the fun things you can do with it.

I can't see trying to take students from no code to competent SciPy users
in one lecture as a possible feat. So it would be best to simply inspire
them to want to learn more themselves. In which case I'd encourage you to
have a think as to what would be the most inspiring examples? Are jupyter
notebooks on their own something that inspires? Probably not - although
they are nice for showcasing code in. Is ETL exciting? Maybe in extremely
rare cases... NLP, AI etc can be pretty fun and powerful. Graphing
libraries such as MatPlotLib as they are visual is always good as well. Can
demo some (probably useless) 3D charts or XKCD mode if you want.

RE Conda and distros - I'd forget about them, in my experience you may as
well learn to use pip and install what you need that way, in the long term
it is faster and more flexible. Python generally supplies a perfectly good
installer for most operating systems at python.org - no need for anything
else. Keeping it to just standard python (+ some libs you don't explicitly
need to explain) makes it less complex. Also - as biased as it sounds
coming from a Python developer - I'm not sure I'd want to discuss
alternatives (R, SPSS etc.) as it just provides more confusing choices.

In summary I'd aim to inspire not to teach - so show some basics at the
beginning to show how accessible it can be, and then feel free to jump off
into advanced python land to showcase what is possible using whatever you
are most comfortable with. Essentially show them they can learn python, and
then inspire them to want to learn python.

Feel free to ignore all of these thoughts, they are highly subjective.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 5:07 PM Andrew Z  wrote:

> Goktug,
>   Im not clear what is the objective of the lecture? I understand it is an
> intro, but what are you trying to achieve?
>
> I didnt read all the details, but maybe you can look into creating a
> docker/virtual box image with everything preinstalled.
> Good luck.
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 11:54 Göktuğ Kayaalp  wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am responsible of giving my colleagues in from linguistics MA
> > programme an intro to Python, and programming, with a focus on
> > statistics.  It’ll be a single lecture, and I probably won’t be able to
> > do more than give some demos and then some pointers to actually properly
> > learn how to use the tools.
> >
> > The problem is I’m a rather techie power user and my audience the exact
> > opposite, so I feel like I could make use of some guidance as to how to
> > bridge the gap and be useful.
> >
> > I want to stick to Python 3, demo them a few basics of programming, then
> > how to use matplotlib, Jupyter notebooks (is this what IPyNBs became?),
> > and some descriptive statistics.  All this needs to happen within the
> > span of a single lecture (tho if people are interested I’ll offer to do
> > a few more in our own time), so 45min~1h.
> >
> > The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
> > everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
> > them.  I feel like choosing one of the distros is a good idea: I could
> > just put the installers on a USB and hand it out, or just send them a
> > message with simple steps to follow and set themselves up beforehand.
> > Thing is, IDK nothing about distros.  Anaconda seems to be the best
> > options, but comes with complications like an IDE, as opposed to just
> > working with notebooks, and is huge.  Also, seems to include R stuff.
> > Spyder looks nice, but I don’t want to freak people out with such an
> > unfamiliar environment as an IDE just within the first few moments they
> > encounter programming.  These are all humanities people.  Another
> > problem is that Anaconda has ‘conda’, a non-standard package manager,
> > and I’m kinda vary of introducing that to people: should I talk of pip,
> > should I leave it out?  I feel like I should just stick to pip and leave
> > conda out, but IDK.  Python(x,y) is interesting, but it’s apparently
> > Py2k only, and that’s a no-no.
> >
> > So, am I better off telling people to install Anaconda, or plain Py3k +
> > a selection of packages (which 

Re: Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Andrew Z]

Goktug,
  Im not clear what is the objective of the lecture? I understand it is an
intro, but what are you trying to achieve?

I didnt read all the details, but maybe you can look into creating a
docker/virtual box image with everything preinstalled.
Good luck.

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 11:54 Göktuğ Kayaalp  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am responsible of giving my colleagues in from linguistics MA
> programme an intro to Python, and programming, with a focus on
> statistics.  It’ll be a single lecture, and I probably won’t be able to
> do more than give some demos and then some pointers to actually properly
> learn how to use the tools.
>
> The problem is I’m a rather techie power user and my audience the exact
> opposite, so I feel like I could make use of some guidance as to how to
> bridge the gap and be useful.
>
> I want to stick to Python 3, demo them a few basics of programming, then
> how to use matplotlib, Jupyter notebooks (is this what IPyNBs became?),
> and some descriptive statistics.  All this needs to happen within the
> span of a single lecture (tho if people are interested I’ll offer to do
> a few more in our own time), so 45min~1h.
>
> The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
> everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
> them.  I feel like choosing one of the distros is a good idea: I could
> just put the installers on a USB and hand it out, or just send them a
> message with simple steps to follow and set themselves up beforehand.
> Thing is, IDK nothing about distros.  Anaconda seems to be the best
> options, but comes with complications like an IDE, as opposed to just
> working with notebooks, and is huge.  Also, seems to include R stuff.
> Spyder looks nice, but I don’t want to freak people out with such an
> unfamiliar environment as an IDE just within the first few moments they
> encounter programming.  These are all humanities people.  Another
> problem is that Anaconda has ‘conda’, a non-standard package manager,
> and I’m kinda vary of introducing that to people: should I talk of pip,
> should I leave it out?  I feel like I should just stick to pip and leave
> conda out, but IDK.  Python(x,y) is interesting, but it’s apparently
> Py2k only, and that’s a no-no.
>
> So, am I better off telling people to install Anaconda, or plain Py3k +
> a selection of packages (which maybe I make into a .zip or something)?
>
> Then, I need good pointers to hand out: links to good introductions to
> Python, programming, and statistical use of Python.  Thing is, I’ve
> always learned the hacker way, i.e. skip the docs, tinker with stuff.
> Thus, IDK of any good resources out of experience, and I want to ask you
> all for some recommendations.  I prefer free and tutorial-like stuff,
> but I’ll teach them how to use the stdlib reference too.
>
> What are some good self-teaching material for those who are new to
> programming and Python, and need to mainly do statistics with
> experimental data?
>
> Finally, I’m looking for recommendations on what to show and how.  My
> current master plan is
>
> - what’s the use of programming for a linguist
> - an abstract idea of what programming is
> - basic intro to Python syntax
> - demo how to load and clean up some data
> - demo matplotlib
> - demo jupyter notebooks
> - compare with alternatives: R, SPSS, other?
> - briefly refer to libraries for
>   - NLP
>   - AI?
> - lots of links on
>   - how to learn enough coding for number crunching and plotmaking
>   - how to make use of stdlib reference
>   - how to find and utilise packages and their docs
>   - ...?
>
> I plan to produce a handout with all this info neatly organised, and
> just go with a (few) Jupyter notebooks for the rest (resisting hard the
> urge to go in with Emacs Org Mode instead :)).
>
> I’m looking forward to any recommendations from youse.  The deadline is
> about a month and a half away, and I really want to give people
> something operationable.  People are stuck with BS like SPSS, too simple
> and too pricy, when a few lines of Python (or R) is all they need.  I
> came here because IDK teaching about this stuff, and I haven’t left the
> comfort zones of a programmer ever before, so this is some new
> experience for me and I don’t want to botch it.
>
> Thanks a lot in advance,
>
>Göktuğ.
>
> --
> İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp   <https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
>  024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
>  40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
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Recommendations for intro to python+programming lecture to Humanities MA students

[Göktuğ Kayaalp]

Hi all,

I am responsible of giving my colleagues in from linguistics MA
programme an intro to Python, and programming, with a focus on
statistics.  It’ll be a single lecture, and I probably won’t be able to
do more than give some demos and then some pointers to actually properly
learn how to use the tools.

The problem is I’m a rather techie power user and my audience the exact
opposite, so I feel like I could make use of some guidance as to how to
bridge the gap and be useful.

I want to stick to Python 3, demo them a few basics of programming, then
how to use matplotlib, Jupyter notebooks (is this what IPyNBs became?),
and some descriptive statistics.  All this needs to happen within the
span of a single lecture (tho if people are interested I’ll offer to do
a few more in our own time), so 45min~1h.

The first problem is installation: apart from me, a Debian user,
everybody has Windows or Mac laptops, and IDK how you install Python on
them.  I feel like choosing one of the distros is a good idea: I could
just put the installers on a USB and hand it out, or just send them a
message with simple steps to follow and set themselves up beforehand.
Thing is, IDK nothing about distros.  Anaconda seems to be the best
options, but comes with complications like an IDE, as opposed to just
working with notebooks, and is huge.  Also, seems to include R stuff.
Spyder looks nice, but I don’t want to freak people out with such an
unfamiliar environment as an IDE just within the first few moments they
encounter programming.  These are all humanities people.  Another
problem is that Anaconda has ‘conda’, a non-standard package manager,
and I’m kinda vary of introducing that to people: should I talk of pip,
should I leave it out?  I feel like I should just stick to pip and leave
conda out, but IDK.  Python(x,y) is interesting, but it’s apparently
Py2k only, and that’s a no-no.

So, am I better off telling people to install Anaconda, or plain Py3k +
a selection of packages (which maybe I make into a .zip or something)?

Then, I need good pointers to hand out: links to good introductions to
Python, programming, and statistical use of Python.  Thing is, I’ve
always learned the hacker way, i.e. skip the docs, tinker with stuff.
Thus, IDK of any good resources out of experience, and I want to ask you
all for some recommendations.  I prefer free and tutorial-like stuff,
but I’ll teach them how to use the stdlib reference too.

What are some good self-teaching material for those who are new to
programming and Python, and need to mainly do statistics with
experimental data?

Finally, I’m looking for recommendations on what to show and how.  My
current master plan is

- what’s the use of programming for a linguist
- an abstract idea of what programming is
- basic intro to Python syntax
- demo how to load and clean up some data
- demo matplotlib
- demo jupyter notebooks
- compare with alternatives: R, SPSS, other?
- briefly refer to libraries for
  - NLP
  - AI?
- lots of links on
  - how to learn enough coding for number crunching and plotmaking
  - how to make use of stdlib reference
  - how to find and utilise packages and their docs
  - ...?

I plan to produce a handout with all this info neatly organised, and
just go with a (few) Jupyter notebooks for the rest (resisting hard the
urge to go in with Emacs Org Mode instead :)).

I’m looking forward to any recommendations from youse.  The deadline is
about a month and a half away, and I really want to give people
something operationable.  People are stuck with BS like SPSS, too simple
and too pricy, when a few lines of Python (or R) is all they need.  I
came here because IDK teaching about this stuff, and I haven’t left the
comfort zones of a programmer ever before, so this is some new
experience for me and I don’t want to botch it.

Thanks a lot in advance,

   Göktuğ.

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 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
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Re: can you please help me in opening the python programming.

[Bob Gailer]

We would be glad to help. I can't tell from your question what kind of help
you need so please give us more information.

Have you tried to install python?

If so has the installation succeeded?

What do you mean by "open the programming"?

What have you tried?

What do you expect to see?
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can you please help me in opening the python programming.

[hello!]

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Blog for basic python programming

[manishti2004]

Python for Engineers - Solve Problems by Coding Solutions

https://pythonforengineers.blogspot.in
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Re: Python programming language vulnerabilities

[Stephen Michell]

CORRECTION.
My sincere apologies to anyone that tried the link that I posted. The actual 
link is

www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg23

follow the link to documents, or go directly there via

www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg23/docs/documents.html

I was informed that there are some broken links to documents. I believe that 
they are all fixed now.


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Re: Python programming language vulnerabilities

[Skip Montanaro]

These links work:

* 
http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG23/docs/ISO-IECJTC1-SC22-WG23_N0702-tr24772-4-draft-python-before-mtg-48-2017-03-10.pdf
* 
http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG23/docs/ISO-IECJTC1-SC22-WG23_N0702-tr24772-4-draft-python-before-mtg-48-2017-03-10.docx

Skip


On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Skip Montanaro
 wrote:
> That link's not working for me, even after changing the double slash
> to a single slash.
>
> Skip
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Stephen Michell
>  wrote:
>> My apologies. I maintain that website.
>>
>> There should have been no broken links. I will fix that.
>>
>> The previous version of TR 24772 had annexes for language-specific material. 
>> We have split those out, so the main document (Tr 24772-1) only has language 
>> independent material. The last Python document is N0702 at 
>> open-std.org/sc22/wg23//docs/documents.html. This document was one that 
>> Serihy could not access. That link is fixed, so it can be accessed now.
>>
>>
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Re: Python programming language vulnerabilities

[Skip Montanaro]

That link's not working for me, even after changing the double slash
to a single slash.

Skip

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Stephen Michell
 wrote:
> My apologies. I maintain that website.
>
> There should have been no broken links. I will fix that.
>
> The previous version of TR 24772 had annexes for language-specific material. 
> We have split those out, so the main document (Tr 24772-1) only has language 
> independent material. The last Python document is N0702 at 
> open-std.org/sc22/wg23//docs/documents.html. This document was one that 
> Serihy could not access. That link is fixed, so it can be accessed now.
>
>
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Re: OT?: Where can I find python programming material in different languages?

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 2:59 AM, Joe Gulizia <jrguli...@scola.org> wrote:
> Potentially Off Topic
>

Not at all off topic! A very reasonable question.

>
> I am looking for python programming related blogs, papers, videos in Swahili, 
> Tagalog, Somali, Javanese (Indonesian?), Lithuanian, Pashto, Bulgarian, 
> Farsi, Amharic, Georgian, Kazakh, and Tamil. Although blogs are not online I 
> am looking for material that is not easily and freely available via the Web 
> (or requires a subscription).  I found the Python in languages other than 
> English listsWould those be the best places to start?
>

Here's a good start:

https://wiki.python.org/moin/Languages

The Python wiki tries to maintain a list of these kinds of things.

ChrisA
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OT?: Where can I find python programming material in different languages?

[Joe Gulizia]

Potentially Off Topic


I am looking for python programming related blogs, papers, videos in Swahili, 
Tagalog, Somali, Javanese (Indonesian?), Lithuanian, Pashto, Bulgarian, Farsi, 
Amharic, Georgian, Kazakh, and Tamil. Although blogs are not online I am 
looking for material that is not easily and freely available via the Web (or 
requires a subscription).  I found the Python in languages other than English 
listsWould those be the best places to start?

Thank you



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Python programming classes for children

[beliavsky--- via Python-list]

My 11yo son is taking the online class Intermediate Programming with Python 
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/catalog/python2 offered by the 
Art of Problem Solving company (AoPS). Classes meet for 1.5 hours a week for 12 
weeks. During the classes the instructor lectures (types into a console -- 
there is no sound) and students type answers to questions. There are weekly 
programming assignments. AoPS is a U.S. company whose focus is preparing 
students for math competitions.

Are there other groups offering Python courses for pre-college students?
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Re: Python programming classes for children

[John Ladasky]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 6:03:06 AM UTC-7, beli...@aol.com wrote:
 My 11yo son is taking the online class Intermediate Programming with Python 
 http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/catalog/python2 offered by 
 the Art of Problem Solving company (AoPS). Classes meet for 1.5 hours a week 
 for 12 weeks. During the classes the instructor lectures (types into a 
 console -- there is no sound) and students type answers to questions. There 
 are weekly programming assignments. AoPS is a U.S. company whose focus is 
 preparing students for math competitions.
 
 Are there other groups offering Python courses for pre-college students?

I would recommend that you investigate web sites which match tutors to 
students.  Find a Python tutor who can come to your home, or meet your son at a 
nearby public library.

I love technology, but it's not good for everything.  I have taught Python to a 
range of students, from middle-school age through working professionals.  I am 
also married to an elementary school teacher, and we sometimes discuss teaching 
methods and strategies.  I can't imagine that this remote, text-only method of 
teaching would be very effective, especially for a student that young.

If you have been programming for a while, you take some things for granted that 
kids have to learn, and be shown, with great patience.  For example, my 
youngest students often have trouble at first understanding the difference 
between variable names and their contents, especially when the variables are 
strings.

The only way that I agree to teach is face-to-face.  I have had a few potential 
students ask me to tutor over Skype, and I have always declined.

I bring a laptop, and the student sits at their own computer.  I have broad 
goals for a lesson when I arrive.  However I will, and indeed I must, deviate 
from my plans when the student doesn't understand a concept.

Occasionally I type on my own laptop, when instant visual feedback is needed.  
But mostly, I converse with the student, and look over their shoulders as they 
develop their code.  I let them make mistakes.  I ask them to run their buggy 
code, and when it doesn't work the way that they intended, I ask them if they 
can figure out why.

One more thing: I do NOT teach my students Python 2.  I have been working with 
a QA Engineer whose company uses Python 2, but all of my other students are 
free to choose to learn only Python 3.  Python 3 has been available for about 
five years now, and most new code is being developed in Py3.  I will not 
handicap my students by teaching them an obsolescent version of Python.
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Re: Python programming classes for children

[Tim Golden]

On 01/07/2015 14:02, beliavsky--- via Python-list wrote:

My 11yo son is taking the online class Intermediate Programming with
Python
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/catalog/python2
offered by the Art of Problem Solving company (AoPS). Classes meet
for 1.5 hours a week for 12 weeks. During the classes the instructor
lectures (types into a console -- there is no sound) and students
type answers to questions. There are weekly programming assignments.
AoPS is a U.S. company whose focus is preparing students for math
competitions.

Are there other groups offering Python courses for pre-college
students?



I realise that this may not be the answer you want but: pretty much the 
whole of the UK Primary  Secondary education system, at one level or 
another!


TJG
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Re: Python programming classes for children

[Great Avenger Singh]

On Wednesday, 1 July 2015 18:33:06 UTC+5:30, beli...@aol.com  wrote:
 
 Are there other groups offering Python courses for pre-college students?

Some months ago I took one course from Edx, They provide very good material and 
every each topic assignment is given,

You can try following:

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-computer-science-mitx-6-00-1x-0
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Re: Python programming classes for children

[Great Avenger Singh]

On Thursday, 2 July 2015 07:20:03 UTC+5:30, Great Avenger Singh  wrote:
 On Wednesday, 1 July 2015 18:33:06 UTC+5:30, beli...@aol.com  wrote:
  
  Are there other groups offering Python courses for pre-college students?
 
 Some months ago I took one course from Edx, They provide very good material 
 and every each topic assignment is given,
 
 You can try following:
 
 https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-computer-science-mitx-6-00-1x-0

If your son has already gotten basic programming concepts like execution of 
instruction that's fine. 

Otherwise give also try to this:
https://code.org/
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Python programming

[Jake]

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Re: Python programming

[Neil D. Cerutti]

On 8/27/2014 9:40 AM, Jake wrote:

Jake




I disagree!

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Neil Cerutti

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Re: Python programming

[MRAB]

On 2014-08-27 15:36, Neil D. Cerutti wrote:

On 8/27/2014 9:40 AM, Jake wrote:

Jake




I disagree!


True. Too confusing. Should be Bruce.
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Re: Python programming

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-08-27, MRAB pyt...@mrabarnett.plus.com wrote:
 On 2014-08-27 15:36, Neil D. Cerutti wrote:
 On 8/27/2014 9:40 AM, Jake wrote:
 Jake

 I disagree!

 True. Too confusing. Should be Bruce.

Well, it's spelled Jake, but it's pronounced throat warbler
mangrove

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  at   me ... I have Tylenol!!
  gmail.com
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Re: Python programming

[mm0fmf]

On 27/08/2014 16:41, Grant Edwards wrote:

Well, it's spelled Jake, but it's pronounced throat warbler
mangrove


You're a very silly man and I'm not going to interview you.
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Re: Python programming

[Mark Lawrence]

On 27/08/2014 16:09, MRAB wrote:

On 2014-08-27 15:36, Neil D. Cerutti wrote:

On 8/27/2014 9:40 AM, Jake wrote:

Jake




I disagree!


True. Too confusing. Should be Bruce.


How about Dolores after the first word of the Hardy book that was never 
published?


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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Can we hold execution python programming till GUI event close on?

[Jaydeep Patil]

Hi...

I have one wxframe. after click on that frame another frame opens and rest part 
is executed. I need ti stop the next execution after secong gui calls up.


please suggest.
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Re: Python programming

[John Ladasky]

On Friday, March 7, 2014 4:38:54 PM UTC-8, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
 On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:03:35 -0800 (PST), John Ladasky
 j...@sbcglobal.net declaimed the following:
 
   More than once, I have queried Google with the phrase Why isn't FORTRAN
 dead yet?  For some reason, it lives on.  I can't say that I understand
 why.  

   Well, for one thing, no one can justify rewriting all the numerics
 libraries... LAPACK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPACK , NEC-2
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_Electromagnetics_Code (and likely
 NEC-4).

I have used Numpy for years, and I'm pretty sure that Numpy calls LAPACK under 
the hood.  But if that is true, then I get LAPACK as a pre-compiled binary.  I 
didn't need a FORTRAN compiler until last week.

If one or two specialized applications are the only reason we are keeping a 50 
year-old programming language around, I would be tempted to rewrite those 
applications -- in C, at least.  C's not dead yet!  (It's just resting!)
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Re: Python programming

[Larry Hudson]

snip


I spotted a device on the table of the company calibration office...

As I recall, it was a 100A capable resistor... 0.10 OHM.

No idea what it was meant for; big binding posts at one end, and a slab
of sheet steel in a W shape (smooth curves, not sharp bends).


External shunt for an ammeter?



More likely a dummy load for power supply testing.  (Normally, ammeter shunts 
are sized to dissipate as little power as possible.)

-Bill



Another (OT) story...

I used to work in an electronic calibration lab, but I don't recall having a resistor of that 
description -- however, it reminds me of another story...


While our job was calibrating and maintaining our company's electronics, we occasionally had to 
do some incoming inspection work -- checking incoming components for accuracy.  This particular 
time I had a batch of 0.1 ohm 1% resistors (I think those were the numbers, at least something 
on that order).  I found by checking them right at the body of the resistors they were 
out-of-spec low, and checking at the end of the leads they were out-of-spec high.  Fun!   :-)


To measure them, I used the lab's Current Calibrator -- a special power supply whose voltage was 
controlled to give a constant (dialed-in) current.  Then with a DVM and mini-hooks I could 
attach these DVM leads anyplace along the resistor's leads.  At 1 amp, the voltage (read on the 
DVM) was equal to the resistance.  Ohm's law, of course:  R = E/I, where I is a constant 1.  And 
1 amp was well within the power specs of these resistors.


I ended up checking them at a distance of about a quarter inch from the body, because I expected 
that would be about the way they would be eventually mounted.  They all passed that way.  And 
fortunately I never had another batch of these resistors!   :-)


 -=- Larry -=-

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Re: Python programming

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-03-07, William Ray Wing w...@mac.com wrote:
 On Mar 6, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:

 I spotted a device on the table of the company calibration office...
 
 As I recall, it was a 100A capable resistor... 0.10 OHM.
 
 No idea what it was meant for; big binding posts at one end, and a
 slab of sheet steel in a W shape (smooth curves, not sharp bends).
 
 External shunt for an ammeter?
  

 More likely a dummy load for power supply testing.

Could be.  Back when I was working on PWM controllers for golf cart
and small car motors, we used to use steel coathangers for test loads,
but once they got past orange and more towards yellow, they started to
get too soft.  An appropriately dimensioned chunk of sheet steel would
have been ideal.

 (Normally, ammeter shunts are sized to dissipate as little power as
 possible.)

I've used chunks of coathanger for that too, but I don't think the
resistance was stable enough over temperature to trust the results at
higher currents.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! If elected, Zippy
  at   pledges to each and every
  gmail.comAmerican a 55-year-old
   houseboy ...
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Re: Python programming

[John Ladasky]

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:30:39 AM UTC-8, larry@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:56 PM, William Ray Wing w...@mac.com wrote:
 
  OK, and how many of you remember the original version of the 
  tongue-in-cheek essay Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal from the back 
  page of Datamation?
 
 I do remember it.
 
 http://www.webcitation.org/659yh1oSh


As do I, though I couldn't have been more than about 16 years old when it came 
out.  I just re-read it, and this comment jumped out at me:

Neither OS/370 nor FORTRAN show any signs of dying out, despite all the 
efforts of Pascal programmers the world over.

Well, OS/370, RIP.

As for FORTRAN?  This week, I actually downloaded an application which required 
a FORTRAN compiler.  This is the only FORTRAN application I've ever needed.  
It's not old code, the first revision came out about 10 years ago.  More than 
once, I have queried Google with the phrase Why isn't FORTRAN dead yet?  For 
some reason, it lives on.  I can't say that I understand why.  
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Re: Python programming

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 March 2014 12:29:38 Grant Edwards did opine:

 On 2014-03-07, William Ray Wing w...@mac.com wrote:
  On Mar 6, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
  I spotted a device on the table of the company calibration office...
  
  As I recall, it was a 100A capable resistor... 0.10 OHM.
  
  No idea what it was meant for; big binding posts at one end, and a
  slab of sheet steel in a W shape (smooth curves, not sharp bends).
  
  External shunt for an ammeter?
  
  More likely a dummy load for power supply testing.
 
 Could be.  Back when I was working on PWM controllers for golf cart
 and small car motors, we used to use steel coathangers for test loads,
 but once they got past orange and more towards yellow, they started to
 get too soft.  An appropriately dimensioned chunk of sheet steel would
 have been ideal.
 
  (Normally, ammeter shunts are sized to dissipate as little power as
  possible.)
 
 I've used chunks of coathanger for that too, but I don't think the
 resistance was stable enough over temperature to trust the results at
 higher currents.

This is really really offtopic but since its turned into war stories,
I recall one time that I needed to test a 5v 200amp supply that there were 
2 of in an old NEC Digital Video Effects unit,  I looked up the R per 1000' 
of standard romex in the various gauges  went over the Lowes and bought a 
100' roll of of 10/2.  Soldered the inside end together after striping and 
twisting it together,  It worked well, but the PSU didn't.  Made by HP back 
when they _thought_ they knew about how to build cement block sized power 
supplies. The psu went into foldback at about 20 amps.  All the bugs were 
good, nothing running warm.  Analyzing backwards in view of the curie point 
on some ferrite's being below the boiling point of water, I finally came to 
the conclusion that the ferrite in the output transformer had gone 
austenitic, eg totally non-magnetic, like it was just so much air, which is 
what many of those compounds will do if magnetized near saturation when 
they hit the curie point, and will never recover from.  HP of course didn't 
have the transformer or a replacement supply, but I found some Pioneer's 
with a suitable rating at M.P.Jones in FL and broke their hands putting a 
check for 2 of them in them, shipped yesterday.  That was in about 1997  
they were still in service when we turned analog tv off June 30, 2008. 

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene

NOTICE: Will pay 100 USD for an HP-4815A defective but
complete probe assembly.

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Re: Python programming

[William Ray Wing]

On Mar 7, 2014, at 1:03 PM, John Ladasky john_lada...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

 
 As for FORTRAN?  This week, I actually downloaded an application which 
 required a FORTRAN compiler.  This is the only FORTRAN application I've ever 
 needed.  It's not old code, the first revision came out about 10 years ago.  
 More than once, I have queried Google with the phrase Why isn't FORTRAN dead 
 yet?  For some reason, it lives on.  I can't say that I understand why.  
 -- 
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Well, I’d claim that for what it was designed for (FORTRAN stands for FORmula 
TRANslator after all), it is still pretty da*mn good.  It generates extremely 
fast, robust code that requires much less debugging effort than the equivalent 
C or C++ requires.  Most of the physicists I know still write FORTRAN, although 
they no longer do so exclusively.

Of course, as has been pointed out, the HUGE code base of scientific and 
numerical analysis code that already exists in FORTRAN makes rewriting sort of 
a waste of grant (or company) money.

-Bill
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Re: Python programming

[Tim Chase]

On 2014-03-06 06:17, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
 On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:19:56 -0800, Beowulf wrote:
 
  Once you master one language it is easy to understand other.  
 
 Depends on the languages. Learning Forth doesn't make it easier to
 learn Perl. Learning Pascal doesn't make Smalltalk easier.

And despite having a couple dozen languages worth of (varying levels
of) experience under my belt, Prolog still feels to me like
programming by epiphany.

-tkc



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Re: Python programming

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-03-06, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
 In article lf8udn$eag$1...@dont-email.me,
  Dan Sommers d...@tombstonezero.net wrote:

 On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:19:56 -0800, Beowulf wrote:
 
  Once you master one language it is easy to understand other ...
 
 Once you master one language, the next one is hard.  After that, they
 get easier.

 And then you get to PHP.

Yep, it's a real mess.  Both the language and the room you're in when
your head finally explodes.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! Th' MIND is the Pizza
  at   Palace of th' SOUL
  gmail.com
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Re: Python programming

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-03-06, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote:
 On 2014-03-06 06:17, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
 On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:19:56 -0800, Beowulf wrote:
 
  Once you master one language it is easy to understand other.  
 
 Depends on the languages. Learning Forth doesn't make it easier to
 learn Perl. Learning Pascal doesn't make Smalltalk easier.

 And despite having a couple dozen languages worth of (varying levels
 of) experience under my belt, Prolog still feels to me like
 programming by epiphany.

Back when I was in school, Lisp and Prolog were the hardest to grok. I
eventually got Lisp (well, I actually got Scheme, and I think I
could now get Lisp if I tried).  Prolog is definitely the odd one of
the dozen or two languages I've learned -- and I even wrote a small
expert system in Prolog as a project for a software engineering class.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! I think my career
  at   is ruined!
  gmail.com
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Re: Python programming

[Roy Smith]

In article mailman.7884.1394151937.18130.python-l...@python.org,
 Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

 On 06 Mar 2014 02:51:54 GMT, alb...@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der
 Horst) declaimed the following:
 
 In article roy-a94c1b.22041912022...@news.panix.com,
 Roy Smith  r...@panix.com wrote:
 In article ldhcau$d9v$1...@reader1.panix.com,
  Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote:
 
  On 2014-02-13, Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
 
  An S-100 wire-wrap board.
 
  Yup, been there done that!
 
 Never did S-100, but I did do a custom Unibus card (wirewrap).
 
 You know you're working with a Real Computer (tm) when the +5V power
 supply can deliver as much current as an arc welder.
 
 I've a 64 node Parsytec transputer system in the hall way with
 dual 5V 100A power supplies. Does that count?
 
   I spotted a device on the table of the company calibration office...
 
   As I recall, it was a 100A capable resistor... 0.10 OHM.
 
   No idea what it was meant for; big binding posts at one end, and a slab
 of sheet steel in a W shape (smooth curves, not sharp bends).

External shunt for an ammeter?
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Re: Python programming

[William Ray Wing]

On Mar 6, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:

 In article mailman.7884.1394151937.18130.python-l...@python.org,
 Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
 
 On 06 Mar 2014 02:51:54 GMT, alb...@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der
 Horst) declaimed the following:
 
 In article roy-a94c1b.22041912022...@news.panix.com,
 Roy Smith  r...@panix.com wrote:
 In article ldhcau$d9v$1...@reader1.panix.com,
 Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote:
 
 On 2014-02-13, Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
 
   An S-100 wire-wrap board.
 
 Yup, been there done that!
 
 Never did S-100, but I did do a custom Unibus card (wirewrap).
 
 You know you're working with a Real Computer (tm) when the +5V power
 supply can deliver as much current as an arc welder.
 
 I've a 64 node Parsytec transputer system in the hall way with
 dual 5V 100A power supplies. Does that count?
 
  I spotted a device on the table of the company calibration office...
 
  As I recall, it was a 100A capable resistor... 0.10 OHM.
 
  No idea what it was meant for; big binding posts at one end, and a slab
 of sheet steel in a W shape (smooth curves, not sharp bends).
 
 External shunt for an ammeter?
  

More likely a dummy load for power supply testing.  (Normally, ammeter shunts 
are sized to dissipate as little power as possible.)

-Bill

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Re: Python programming

[Albert van der Horst]

In article roy-a94c1b.22041912022...@news.panix.com,
Roy Smith  r...@panix.com wrote:
In article ldhcau$d9v$1...@reader1.panix.com,
 Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote:

 On 2014-02-13, Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

 An S-100 wire-wrap board.

 Yup, been there done that!

Never did S-100, but I did do a custom Unibus card (wirewrap).

You know you're working with a Real Computer (tm) when the +5V power
supply can deliver as much current as an arc welder.

I've a 64 node Parsytec transputer system in the hall way with
dual 5V 100A power supplies. Does that count?

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spearc.xs4all.nl =n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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Re: Python programming

[88888 Dihedral]

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:30:27 PM UTC+8, Neil Cerutti wrote:
 On 2014-02-12, Tim Delaney timothy.c.dela...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  OK - it's degenerated into one of these threads - I'm going to
 
  participate.
 
 
 
 Me, too!
 
 
 
 I wrote lots of programs, strictly for fun, on every personal
 
 computer I got my hands on. Toward the end of the 80's personal
 
 computer's stopped coming equipped with programming environments,
 
 and I stopped programming.
 
 
 
 I eventually learned  some computing theory in college where they
 
 taught C and the rudiments of C++.
 
 
 
 Thanks to the open-source movement we've returned to the days
 
 when anybody can program for zero cash. You can program well
 
 enough to amuse yourself with very little effort indeed.
 
 
 
 To get from there to being able to write programs to do useful
 
 things for yourself is a lot harder, but this is the niche that
 
 Python fills excellent well. If this is what you want to do,
 
 Python is a good way to go.
 
 
 
 That's still just the beginning, but it's a pretty good place.
 
 
 
 -- 
 
 Neil Cerutti

I wrote programs for viewing gif, pcx,
bmp, and jpg images in 1991 to 1992.

Also I was planning to write an 
Lotus123 clone at the time, but 
I was too lazy to chunk out that
project in 1993.

 
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Re: Python programming

[Beowulf]

Once you master one language it is easy to understand other.  I mastered C in 
my younger years, writing signal handlers and thread on Solaris and AIX.

It it not the syntax, that comes easy, it is building the correct algorithm 
that matters.

The best way to learn is make some thing useful that you need.  I would suggest 
project with Raspberry Pi to learn python.

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 4:21:29 PM UTC-8, ngangsia akumbo wrote:
 Please i have a silly question to ask.
 
 
 
 How long did it take you to learn how to write programs?
 
 
 
 What is the best way i can master thinker?
 
 I know the syntax but using it to write a program is a problem
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Re: Python programming

[Dan Sommers]

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:19:56 -0800, Beowulf wrote:

 Once you master one language it is easy to understand other ...

Once you master one language, the next one is hard.  After that, they
get easier.
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Re: Python programming

[Roy Smith]

In article lf8udn$eag$1...@dont-email.me,
 Dan Sommers d...@tombstonezero.net wrote:

 On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:19:56 -0800, Beowulf wrote:
 
  Once you master one language it is easy to understand other ...
 
 Once you master one language, the next one is hard.  After that, they
 get easier.

And then you get to PHP.
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Re: Python programming

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:19:56 -0800, Beowulf wrote:

 Once you master one language it is easy to understand other.  

Depends on the languages. Learning Forth doesn't make it easier to learn 
Perl. Learning Pascal doesn't make Smalltalk easier.


-- 
Steven
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Re: Python programming

[ngangsia akumbo]

wow wow

Thanks for the contutions

Thanks guys, 
many more are welcome
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Re: Python programming

[Larry Martell]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:56 PM, William Ray Wing w...@mac.com wrote:
 OK, and how many of you remember the original version of the tongue-in-cheek 
 essay Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal from the back page of Datamation?

I do remember it.

http://www.webcitation.org/659yh1oSh
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Re: Python programming

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-02-13, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
 You know you're working with a Real Computer (tm) when the +5V power
 supply can deliver as much current as an arc welder.

 That'd run a reasonable number of devices.

That depends.  Back in the days of bipolar glue logic and NMOS
microprocessors and peripherals, an Amp didn't get you very much.  :)

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  at   same personality disorder
  gmail.comas LUCY RICARDO!!
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Re: Python programming

[Neil Cerutti]

On 2014-02-12, Tim Delaney timothy.c.dela...@gmail.com wrote:
 OK - it's degenerated into one of these threads - I'm going to
 participate.

Me, too!

I wrote lots of programs, strictly for fun, on every personal
computer I got my hands on. Toward the end of the 80's personal
computer's stopped coming equipped with programming environments,
and I stopped programming.

I eventually learned  some computing theory in college where they
taught C and the rudiments of C++.

Thanks to the open-source movement we've returned to the days
when anybody can program for zero cash. You can program well
enough to amuse yourself with very little effort indeed.

To get from there to being able to write programs to do useful
things for yourself is a lot harder, but this is the niche that
Python fills excellent well. If this is what you want to do,
Python is a good way to go.

That's still just the beginning, but it's a pretty good place.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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Re: Python programming

[Ben Abramowitz]

I started learning python 3.3 for 13 days (including today) ago, using this
book, with no programming experience:
http://openbookproject.net/thinkcs/python/english3e/index.html

the fact that the author uses the python turtle to teach readers object
orientated programming,
has been ALL the difference.

by chapter 4, you are writing basic void and fruitful functions. it is
awesome.

it has exercises at the end of every chapter, that if you grind out, you
learn a truckload from. and progress.
If you put in the time, and glue your butt to a seat for as long as you
can, as many days in a row, the results are very satisfying.

the book is free. I highly recommend it.




On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 4:21 PM, ngangsia akumbo ngang...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please i have a silly question to ask.

 How long did it take you to learn how to write programs?

 What is the best way i can master thinker?
 I know the syntax but using it to write a program is a problem
 --
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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Re: Python programming

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 11 February 2014 23:13:33 Roy Smith did opine:

 In article b2db52b0-d7f7-43dd-9ddf-86feb109e...@googlegroups.com,
 
  ngangsia akumbo ngang...@gmail.com wrote:
  Please i have a silly question to ask.
  
  How long did it take you to learn how to write programs?
 
 I've been working on it for 40 years.  I'll let you know when I get
 there.

I started, on an RCA 1802 board in '79.  I'm damned sure not there yet.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene

NOTICE: Will pay 100 USD for an HP-4815A defective but
complete probe assembly.

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Re: Python programming

[Mark Lawrence]

On 12/02/2014 04:14, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 11 February 2014 23:13:33 Roy Smith did opine:


In article b2db52b0-d7f7-43dd-9ddf-86feb109e...@googlegroups.com,

  ngangsia akumbo ngang...@gmail.com wrote:

Please i have a silly question to ask.

How long did it take you to learn how to write programs?


I've been working on it for 40 years.  I'll let you know when I get
there.


I started, on an RCA 1802 board in '79.  I'm damned sure not there yet.

Cheers, Gene



Snap :)

--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.


Mark Lawrence

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is active.
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Re: Python programming

[Larry Martell]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 7:21 PM, ngangsia akumbo ngang...@gmail.com wrote:
 Please i have a silly question to ask.

 How long did it take you to learn how to write programs?

My entire life.

I started in 1975 when I was 16 - taught myself BASIC and wrote a very
crude downhill skiing game. I had dial in access to the mainframe at a
local college (my HS math teacher got that for me). I could only
access it off hours, so I wrote my program to yellow paper tape then
uploaded it over a 110 baud connection. Then taught myself FORTRAN,
then went to college at Rochester Institute of Technology majoring in
Computer Engineering. First class was Pascal, then FORTRAN, which I
tested out of. Then IBM 360 assembly language, then C. After college I
taught myself SQL, shell programming, perl, C++, python, and PHP. And
in just the last 2 years javascript, jQuery, HTML, and CSS. It never
stops.
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Re: Python programming

[Roy Smith]

In article mailman.6757.139221.18130.python-l...@python.org,
 Larry Martell larry.mart...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 7:21 PM, ngangsia akumbo ngang...@gmail.com wrote:
  Please i have a silly question to ask.
 
  How long did it take you to learn how to write programs?
 
 My entire life.
 
 I started in 1975 when I was 16 - taught myself BASIC and wrote a very
 crude downhill skiing game. I had dial in access to the mainframe at a
 local college (my HS math teacher got that for me).

Wow, sounds exactly like my experience.  Probably one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_2000

Lunar lander.  Hunt the wumpus.  Space War.

Actually, before I was allowed to get access to that, I got some time on 
one of these:

http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/hp9810a.html
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Re: Python programming

[Larry Martell]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:13 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
 In article mailman.6757.139221.18130.python-l...@python.org,
  Larry Martell larry.mart...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 7:21 PM, ngangsia akumbo ngang...@gmail.com wrote:
  Please i have a silly question to ask.
 
  How long did it take you to learn how to write programs?

 My entire life.

 I started in 1975 when I was 16 - taught myself BASIC and wrote a very
 crude downhill skiing game. I had dial in access to the mainframe at a
 local college (my HS math teacher got that for me).

 Wow, sounds exactly like my experience.  Probably one of these:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_2000

I think it was a Xerox Sigma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDS_Sigma_series
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Re: Python programming

[Tim Delaney]

On 13 February 2014 00:55, Larry Martell larry.mart...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 7:21 PM, ngangsia akumbo ngang...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Please i have a silly question to ask.
 
  How long did it take you to learn how to write programs?

 My entire life.

 I started in 1975 when I was 16 - taught myself BASIC and wrote a very
 crude downhill skiing game.


OK - it's degenerated into one of these threads - I'm going to participate.

I received a copy of The Beginners Computer Handbook: Understanding 
programming the micro (Judy Tatchell and Bill Bennet, edited by Lisa Watts
- ISBN 0860206947) for Christmas of 1985 (I think - I would have been 11
years old). As you may be able to tell from that detail, I have it sitting
in front of me right now - other books have come and gone, but I've kept
that one with me. It appears to have been published elsewhere under a
slightly different name with a very different (and much more boring) cover
- I can't find any links to my edition.

My school had a couple of Apple IIe and IIc machines, so I started by
entering the programs in the book. Then I started modifying them. Then I
started writing my own programs from scratch.

A couple of years later my dad had been asked to teach a programming class
and was trying to teach himself Pascal. We had a Mac 512K he was using.
He'd been struggling with it for a few months and getting nowhere. One
weekend I picked up his Pascal manual + a 68K assembler Mac ROM guide,
combined the two and by the end of the weekend had a semi-working graphical
paint program.

A few years after that I went to university (comp sci); blitzed my
computer-related classes; scraped by in my non-computer-related classes;
did some programming work along the way; was recommended to a job by a
lecturer half-way through my third year of uni; spent the next 4 years
working while (slowly) finishing my degree; eventually found my way into an
organisation which treated software development as a discipline and a
craft, stayed there for 10 years learning how to be more than just a
programmer; came out the other end a senior developer/technical lead and
effective communicator.

And that's how I learned to program.

Tim Delaney
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Re: Python programming

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Tim Delaney
timothy.c.dela...@gmail.com wrote:
 I received a copy of The Beginners Computer Handbook: Understanding 
 programming the micro (Judy Tatchell and Bill Bennet, edited by Lisa Watts
 - ISBN 0860206947) for Christmas of 1985 (I think - I would have been 11
 years old). As you may be able to tell from that detail, I have it sitting
 in front of me right now - other books have come and gone, but I've kept
 that one with me. It appears to have been published elsewhere under a
 slightly different name with a very different (and much more boring) cover -
 I can't find any links to my edition.

Heh. I wonder if I could still find back the copy of Bible BASIC
that I learned from.

And yes, I learned BASIC first. Moved on from there to 8086 assembly
language, using DEBUG.EXE as my assembler, and proceeded through a
variety of setups with crazy restrictions on them. Let's see... I
wrote non-TSR interrupt handlers that executed a subprocess and
cleaned up when that process finished; used BASIC with CALL ABSOLUTE
to handle a mouse pointer; got onto OS/2 but didn't have a C compiler,
ergo wrote OS/2 code in Pascal; wanted to write a device driver but
lacked both C compiler and assembler, ergo wrote a two-pass assembler
in REXX that piped everything through DEBUG.EXE running in a virtual
86 session; couldn't get hold of a copy of the no-longer-supported
VX-REXX, and so wielded a demo version with a weird system of creating
executables... you know, getting onto a Linux system with a real
toolchain was quite the luxury. (Okay, okay, I did have some slightly
more normal experiences in amongst the weird ones. But it sounds more
insane to pretend that the above was how _all_ my programming went.)

ChrisA
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Re: Python programming

[Tim Delaney]

On 13 February 2014 08:02, Tim Delaney timothy.c.dela...@gmail.com wrote:

 I received a copy of The Beginners Computer Handbook: Understanding 
 programming the micro (Judy Tatchell and Bill Bennet, edited by Lisa Watts
 - ISBN 0860206947)


I should have noted that the examples were all BASIC (with details for how
to modify for various BASIC implementations on various platforms).

Tim Delaney
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