Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
On Sep 15, 5:11 pm, James Stroud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Holden wrote: I don't know why you have a bug up your ass about it, as the Americans say. I think most Americans say wild hare up your ass. We do not, in fact, say wild hair up your ass. Many of us can testify that a hair up one's ass would be nothing terribly unusual and would go completely unnoticed under most circumstances. Also, some Americans erroneously say hair's breath, and others think they mean hare's breath (which might be tiny, but diffuses quickly to theoretically infinite volume). In reality, however, they mean hair's breadth--which is quite small indeed! For instance, a hair's breadth is far smaller than a hare's breath (even at the exact moment of respiration). James Funny... I have never heard any of those expressions. I guess I need to get out more. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
On 9/15/07, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Machin wrote: On 16/09/2007 8:11 AM, James Stroud wrote: Steve Holden wrote: I don't know why you have a bug up your ass about it, as the Americans say. I think most Americans say wild hare up your ass. I guess I got the metaphor wrong? Maybe it's a Southern US thing. I've always heard bug used; somehow it doesn't seem that a wild hare would fit! -- # p.d. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
Peter Decker wrote: On 9/15/07, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Machin wrote: On 16/09/2007 8:11 AM, James Stroud wrote: Steve Holden wrote: I don't know why you have a bug up your ass about it, as the Americans say. I think most Americans say wild hare up your ass. I guess I got the metaphor wrong? Maybe it's a Southern US thing. I've always heard bug used; somehow it doesn't seem that a wild hare would fit! We say wild hare down in Texas. I think I've heard bug before, but I wanted an excuse to vent about the hair v. hare issue in some of these American idioms. I guess I have a insert idiom here about it. James -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
Am I the only one that thinks that python statements should force whitespace before and after them? Right now this is not enforced and for an example these statements are valid printhello fooifbarelsefoobar for(x,y)in[(1,2),(3,4)]:print(x,y) [(y)for(x,y)in[(foo,2),(bar,4)]iffooin(x)] ...and so on. I know that writing code like this really shouldn't be done but wouldn't it be a good idea to enforce the use of whitespace around statements? (I wrote a short blog post about this here http://blog.buffis.com/?p=55 but thought I would post here as well to see what other developers think) - Björn Kempén -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
buffi wrote: Am I the only one that thinks that python statements should force whitespace before and after them? Right now this is not enforced and for an example these statements are valid printhello fooifbarelsefoobar for(x,y)in[(1,2),(3,4)]:print(x,y) [(y)for(x,y)in[(foo,2),(bar,4)]iffooin(x)] ...and so on. I know that writing code like this really shouldn't be done but wouldn't it be a good idea to enforce the use of whitespace around statements? (I wrote a short blog post about this here http://blog.buffis.com/?p=55 but thought I would post here as well to see what other developers think) - Björn Kempén You may have a point--but on the other hand, this may be purposefully allowed help to recruit perl programmers. James -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
buffi wrote: Am I the only one that thinks that python statements should force whitespace before and after them? Right now this is not enforced and for an example these statements are valid printhello fooifbarelsefoobar for(x,y)in[(1,2),(3,4)]:print(x,y) [(y)for(x,y)in[(foo,2),(bar,4)]iffooin(x)] ...and so on. On the other hand, this is just as bad: [ ( y ) for ( x , y ) in [ ( foo , 2 ) , ( bar , 4 ) ] if foo in ( x ) ] And I'd hate to have to remember all of the rules for what can go together and what can't, especially when it comes time to debug. No. I don't think it should be forced, but maybe put it in PEP8 or PEP3008. Also, the only thing I find thoroughly disagreeable in all of that mess, is the run-ins involving characters. The rest are at least clear at a glance what belongs where. Also, would you require the following? my_function (swallow='European') Because that is just an awful use of whitespace. Cheers, Cliff -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
On 9/15/07, J. Cliff Dyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I'd hate to have to remember all of the rules for what can go together and what can't, especially when it comes time to debug. No. I don't think it should be forced, but maybe put it in PEP8 or PEP3008. It is: see Whitespace in Expressions and Statements in PEP 8. -- http://www.advogato.org/person/eopadoan/ Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/edcrypt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
On Sep 15, 10:11 pm, J. Cliff Dyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: buffi wrote: Am I the only one that thinks that python statements should force whitespace before and after them? Right now this is not enforced and for an example these statements are valid printhello fooifbarelsefoobar for(x,y)in[(1,2),(3,4)]:print(x,y) [(y)for(x,y)in[(foo,2),(bar,4)]iffooin(x)] ...and so on. On the other hand, this is just as bad: [ ( y ) for ( x , y ) in [ ( foo , 2 ) , ( bar , 4 ) ] if foo in ( x ) ] And I'd hate to have to remember all of the rules for what can go together and what can't, especially when it comes time to debug. No. I don't think it should be forced, but maybe put it in PEP8 or PEP3008. Also, the only thing I find thoroughly disagreeable in all of that mess, is the run-ins involving characters. The rest are at least clear at a glance what belongs where. Also, would you require the following? my_function (swallow='European') Because that is just an awful use of whitespace. Cheers, Cliff I believe that having whitespace around the builtin statements, and having whitespace around everything is pretty different. There would be no downside whatsoever to enforcing this, except for backwards incompatibility (which is a rather huge downside but well... py3k is gonna break everything anyways). There obviously shouldnt be any limit to the maximum amount of whitespace used around statements (due to formatting and so on), but allowing stuff like printhello is just horrible. - Björn Kempén -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
buffi wrote: On Sep 15, 10:11 pm, J. Cliff Dyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: buffi wrote: Am I the only one that thinks that python statements should force whitespace before and after them? Right now this is not enforced and for an example these statements are valid printhello fooifbarelsefoobar for(x,y)in[(1,2),(3,4)]:print(x,y) [(y)for(x,y)in[(foo,2),(bar,4)]iffooin(x)] ...and so on. On the other hand, this is just as bad: [ ( y ) for ( x , y ) in [ ( foo , 2 ) , ( bar , 4 ) ] if foo in ( x ) ] And I'd hate to have to remember all of the rules for what can go together and what can't, especially when it comes time to debug. No. I don't think it should be forced, but maybe put it in PEP8 or PEP3008. Also, the only thing I find thoroughly disagreeable in all of that mess, is the run-ins involving characters. The rest are at least clear at a glance what belongs where. Also, would you require the following? my_function (swallow='European') Because that is just an awful use of whitespace. Cheers, Cliff I believe that having whitespace around the builtin statements, and having whitespace around everything is pretty different. There would be no downside whatsoever to enforcing this, except for backwards incompatibility (which is a rather huge downside but well... py3k is gonna break everything anyways). There obviously shouldnt be any limit to the maximum amount of whitespace used around statements (due to formatting and so on), but allowing stuff like printhello is just horrible. If you don't like it then don't write it. I've been reading this group on and off for about ten years and I believe your email is the first to point out that this is possible. Clearly it isn't something that happens a lot, and I don't know why you have a bug up your ass about it, as the Americans say. The Python philosophy is to be permissive, and to expect individual users to write readable Python. Since they obviously do (one message in ten years providing a counter-example) I think you are wasting your time and energy on this. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden Sorry, the dog ate my .sigline -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
On Sep 15, 11:49 pm, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: buffi wrote: On Sep 15, 10:11 pm, J. Cliff Dyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: buffi wrote: Am I the only one that thinks that python statements should force whitespace before and after them? Right now this is not enforced and for an example these statements are valid printhello fooifbarelsefoobar for(x,y)in[(1,2),(3,4)]:print(x,y) [(y)for(x,y)in[(foo,2),(bar,4)]iffooin(x)] ...and so on. On the other hand, this is just as bad: [ ( y ) for ( x , y ) in [ ( foo , 2 ) , ( bar , 4 ) ] if foo in ( x ) ] And I'd hate to have to remember all of the rules for what can go together and what can't, especially when it comes time to debug. No. I don't think it should be forced, but maybe put it in PEP8 or PEP3008. Also, the only thing I find thoroughly disagreeable in all of that mess, is the run-ins involving characters. The rest are at least clear at a glance what belongs where. Also, would you require the following? my_function (swallow='European') Because that is just an awful use of whitespace. Cheers, Cliff I believe that having whitespace around the builtin statements, and having whitespace around everything is pretty different. There would be no downside whatsoever to enforcing this, except for backwards incompatibility (which is a rather huge downside but well... py3k is gonna break everything anyways). There obviously shouldnt be any limit to the maximum amount of whitespace used around statements (due to formatting and so on), but allowing stuff like printhello is just horrible. If you don't like it then don't write it. I've been reading this group on and off for about ten years and I believe your email is the first to point out that this is possible. Clearly it isn't something that happens a lot, and I don't know why you have a bug up your ass about it, as the Americans say. The Python philosophy is to be permissive, and to expect individual users to write readable Python. Since they obviously do (one message in ten years providing a counter-example) I think you are wasting your time and energy on this. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden Sorry, the dog ate my .sigline I actually found out about this myself while grading student labs. I myself didn't even know that you could write statements like this until then, but since some students does it that means that there should be other people out there as well that does it. And I can't say that I agree about The Python philosophy being permissive, and to expect individual users to write readable Python. Python enforces proper indentation which I think is a great idea since I'm used to reading horribly indented code by others. I would love to see this extended to enforce proper whitespacing for statements. There should be one-and preferably only one-obvious way to do it. is a phrase that is usually considered pythonic, and I think that it should also apply a bit when it comes to coding conventions. - Björn Kempén -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
Steve Holden wrote: I don't know why you have a bug up your ass about it, as the Americans say. I think most Americans say wild hare up your ass. We do not, in fact, say wild hair up your ass. Many of us can testify that a hair up one's ass would be nothing terribly unusual and would go completely unnoticed under most circumstances. Also, some Americans erroneously say hair's breath, and others think they mean hare's breath (which might be tiny, but diffuses quickly to theoretically infinite volume). In reality, however, they mean hair's breadth--which is quite small indeed! For instance, a hair's breadth is far smaller than a hare's breath (even at the exact moment of respiration). James -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
On 16/09/2007 8:11 AM, James Stroud wrote: Steve Holden wrote: I don't know why you have a bug up your ass about it, as the Americans say. I think most Americans say wild hare up your ass. The essence of Steve's point appears to be that the OP has ridden into town to preach a misguided crusade against the heretofore-unknown non-spacing heretics. It also seems to be alleged that at some stage, the OP's donkey has been severely molested by some malevolent fauna; I am having difficulty understanding the connection between the two themes, and which is cause and which is effect. Enlightenment, please. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
On Behalf Of J. Cliff Dyer On the other hand, this is just as bad: [ ( y ) for ( x , y ) in [ ( foo , 2 ) , ( bar , 4 ) ] if foo in ( x ) ] I think that's allowed in order to recruit C/C++ programmers. Regards, Ryan Ginstrom -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:14:57 +0900, Ryan Ginstrom wrote: On Behalf Of J. Cliff Dyer On the other hand, this is just as bad: [ ( y ) for ( x , y ) in [ ( foo , 2 ) , ( bar , 4 ) ] if foo in ( x ) ] I think that's allowed in order to recruit C/C++ programmers. Heh :) In all seriousness, sometimes, in an extremely crowded and busy expression, adding a little extra whitespace to emphasize the boundaries between sub-expressions is a good thing. And let's not forget that we can do this: complex_expression = ( ... 2*x + # double the whatzit ... 1.78**(c*3-1) + # see chapter 2 of Martelli, 2008 ... sin(radians(80)) # angle between the foo and the bar ... ) -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python statements not forcing whitespace is messy?
John Machin wrote: On 16/09/2007 8:11 AM, James Stroud wrote: Steve Holden wrote: I don't know why you have a bug up your ass about it, as the Americans say. I think most Americans say wild hare up your ass. The essence of Steve's point appears to be that the OP has ridden into town to preach a misguided crusade against the heretofore-unknown non-spacing heretics. It also seems to be alleged that at some stage, the OP's donkey has been severely molested by some malevolent fauna; I am having difficulty understanding the connection between the two themes, and which is cause and which is effect. Enlightenment, please. I guess I got the metaphor wrong? Eradicate the ten fetters of Buddhism and you will attain enlightenment. regards Steve -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden Sorry, the dog ate my .sigline -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
