Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
Le dimanche 15 décembre 2013 06:07:09 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a écrit : On 12/14/2013 9:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:43:41 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote: This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of http://bugs.python.org/issue19914 to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows). help(str) Not enough memory. Terry, I see you have closed the bug report. I think you were a little hasty. I might have been premature, but I was not hasty. I read the SO reports and though about it for an hour or so while looking at other issues. I did not see any use to leaving it open as I did not see any realistic propect of a useful and acceptible patch to Python. The OP himself said that i/o did not work with 65001 and that not using it fixed his issue. The ultimate cause of the bug may be the failure of Window's more command when the code-page is set to CP-65001, but that doesn't necessarily imply that Python shouldn't, or can't, do something about it. I believe running Python on Windows with cp=65001 falls in the category of Don't do that. This is based on my experiences and the reported experience of other developers who have tried and failed to make it work, reinforced by the SO thread and a couple of other web pages. The interactive help system already supports different pagers, depending on the environment. I think that it could fall back on a more primitive pager if the preferred one fails. Do you know if 'more' actually signals failure? Do you know if there are any other situations in which a pager fails? The relevant code is the pager() and getpager() functions in the pydoc module. The patch won't be trivial, but I think it can be done, and I think it should be done. Although possibly for Python 3.5 rather than a bug-fix version. Your thoughts? My thought is that if the only situation in which a pager fails is one that one should not use, because other things will also fail, then a patch would not be worth the bother. If I'm understanding a little bit about coding of characters, fonts, chars inputing, I should say I never really understood how all this stuff is arranged. (I never found a real explanation too). There is something, which may be very deeply bound to the system (kernel ?). As an example, entering a char with Alt+0XXX always works accordingly to my (the?) localized windows version. Entering a char with Alt+XXX (not the missing 0) uses the OEM (bios?) encoding. jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On 15/12/2013 04:48, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:42 PM, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: To me all this GG complaining sounds like some elderly mom-pop-uncle who weeps/coaxes/moans/pleads/grumbles/ about a fused light bulb, rather than climbing on a stool and changing the bloody thing. No, it's like moaning about Foo Brand light bulbs that die after two weeks, when there are perfectly good light bulbs that last for years if you'll just use a different brand. And there are people who say But Foo Brand light bulbs are easy, you just go up on a ladder every time you want to turn it on and make sure there's a good bulb in it!. ChrisA On this count I observe that on 15/12/2013 GMT at 08:26 the cows still haven't come home :) -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
Le samedi 14 décembre 2013 19:43:41 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a écrit : On 12/14/2013 9:03 AM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: D:\chcp 65001 Page de codes active : 65001 D:\echo * * Try pasting *your* original echo command: echo ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* To repeat, here is what I see: ''' C:\Users\Terryecho ?‚* ?‚* C:\Users\Terrychcp 65001 Active code page: 65001 C:\Users\Terryecho * The system cannot write to the specified device. ''' To repeat, the second time I paste: echo ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* but Command Prompt only displays: echo *. Typing in the latter, ascii-only, command is meaningless. A similar test: ''' C:\Users\Terrymore ^Z C:\Users\Terrychcp 65001 Active code page: 65001 C:\Users\Terrymore Not enough memory. ''' This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of http://bugs.python.org/issue19914 to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows). help(str) Not enough memory. See http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3401802/codepage-850-works-65001-fails-there-is-no-response-to-call-foo-cmd-interna for other reports that cp65001 fails. It is not just me. print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u])) ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE EURO SIGN CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE COUNTERBORE ASTERISK - cp65001, font: Consolas D:\jm\jmgoecho ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph: the chars 1, 4 and 7. I build an exe with the golang. Same result. Just for curiosity: XeTeX - pdf: same result. LucidaConsole CID TrueType, Consolas CID TrueType understand: OpenType jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u])) ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE EURO SIGN CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE COUNTERBORE ASTERISK - cp65001, font: Consolas D:\jm\jmgoecho ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph: the chars 1, 4 and 7. I build an exe with the golang. Same result. Just for curiosity: XeTeX - pdf: same result. LucidaConsole CID TrueType, Consolas CID TrueType understand: OpenType jmf Where is the Python related issue here? Why do you keep posting double spaced crap, despite repeated requests not to do so? Or do you blame this on the allegedly failed PEP 393 FSR implementation? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:05:05 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u])) ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE EURO SIGN CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE COUNTERBORE ASTERISK - cp65001, font: Consolas D:\jm\jmgoecho ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph: the chars 1, 4 and 7. I build an exe with the golang. Same result. Just for curiosity: XeTeX - pdf: same result. LucidaConsole CID TrueType, Consolas CID TrueType understand: OpenType jmf Where is the Python related issue here? Read the whole thread before charging in like a bull at a gate accusing people of being off-topic. This is on-topic, and if you don't see the connection, you need to read the whole thread. Why do you keep posting double spaced crap, despite repeated requests not to do so? Or do you blame this on the allegedly failed PEP 393 FSR implementation? I see no double-spacing in the text you quoted. Do you have nothing better to do than continually hassle people over minor formatting issues? Formatting issues are harmful to the degree they get in the way of efficient communication. Since by your own admission you have never treated JMF as being credible, there's nothing he can write or say that you will believe, so why do you care what he writes? You are not the target of his communication unless you choose to be. Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so far in forgiving disruptive behaviour. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On 14/12/2013 22:51, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:05:05 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u])) ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE EURO SIGN CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE COUNTERBORE ASTERISK - cp65001, font: Consolas D:\jm\jmgoecho ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴* As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph: the chars 1, 4 and 7. I build an exe with the golang. Same result. Just for curiosity: XeTeX - pdf: same result. LucidaConsole CID TrueType, Consolas CID TrueType understand: OpenType jmf Where is the Python related issue here? Read the whole thread before charging in like a bull at a gate accusing people of being off-topic. This is on-topic, and if you don't see the connection, you need to read the whole thread. I have. Going back over this thread the words from Terry Reedy make things perfectly clear that this is a *WINDOWS* problem, not a *PYTHON* one. Chris Angelico also weighed in, but again he was simply ignored. Instead some completely irrelevant cobblers turned up from Joseph McCarthy. Why do you keep posting double spaced crap, despite repeated requests not to do so? Or do you blame this on the allegedly failed PEP 393 FSR implementation? I see no double-spacing in the text you quoted. There is no double spacing because for the umpteenth time I've snipped the whole damn lot. Do you have nothing better to do than continually hassle people over minor formatting issues? This is *NOT* a minor formatting issue, it's a big PITA that should be stopped at source. It would be easier for this to happen if and only if people would stop defending the bug ridden crap tools that are being used to send the double spaced crap. Oh Lord, won't you buy me Mozilla Thunderbird ? My friends all use GG, I think that's absurd. Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from the nerds, So Lord, won't you buy me Mozilla Thunderbird ? Formatting issues are harmful to the degree they get in the way of efficient communication. Since by your own admission you have never treated JMF as being credible, there's nothing he can write or say that you will believe, so why do you care what he writes? You are not the target of his communication unless you choose to be. While he continues to talk crap here I will respond, as I will also complain about double spaced google crap until it stops. I will further state again that I find his disgusting, unwarrented attacks on the PEP 393 FSR indefensible, and are also an attack on the core developers who've taken the time to deliver a faster, (relatively) bug free and lower memory useage implementation of unicode for Python 3.3+. Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so far in forgiving disruptive behaviour. Your opinion, obviously I disagree, these IMO are *NOT* minor issues, and they're also completely avoidable. Stop the problems at source and there are no issues to complain about. I've written no such thing, I simply point it out half a dozen times a day as the latest pile of crap turns up here. Stop the problems at source and there are no issues to complain about. Yes, that's there twice so nobody can miss it. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:43:41 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote: This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of http://bugs.python.org/issue19914 to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows). help(str) Not enough memory. Terry, I see you have closed the bug report. I think you were a little hasty. The ultimate cause of the bug may be the failure of Window's more command when the code-page is set to CP-65001, but that doesn't necessarily imply that Python shouldn't, or can't, do something about it. The interactive help system already supports different pagers, depending on the environment. I think that it could fall back on a more primitive pager if the preferred one fails. The relevant code is the pager() and getpager() functions in the pydoc module. The patch won't be trivial, but I think it can be done, and I think it should be done. Although possibly for Python 3.5 rather than a bug-fix version. Your thoughts? -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On Sunday, December 15, 2013 4:21:08 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so far in forgiving disruptive behaviour. I guess you are talking about https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython As you will see https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython?action=info most of the edits there are by rurpy and the recent ones (sorry I missed putting comments) which are for a more automatic solution are by me. [No I am not asking for 'gratitude'... just sayin' and giving some context] There was this ridiculous guy Jonas https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-October/658671.html who responded to calls to correct the typical GG mess with more and more exceptional rudeness https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-October/658816.html So I thought to myself: Well this is too much! And yet while the rudeness is indefensible the technical grumble: I'm not going to go deleting newlines is not. Hell! Rather than making a socio-eco-politco-anthropo-marxist-feminist mess, why dont we fix a technical problem technically?? To me all this GG complaining sounds like some elderly mom-pop-uncle who weeps/coaxes/moans/pleads/grumbles/ about a fused light bulb, rather than climbing on a stool and changing the bloody thing. So, given that I am a programmer I came up (with some tips from Kushal Kumaran?) with a technical solution. If I were an ace programmer (can learn JS in a day and make useful contributions) it would have been a 0-click solution. [And if I were a super-ace, it would have been a beneficient virus, that would comb the net, discover all GG users and self-install without anyone's knowing] Since I am not ace or super-ace but only a humble programmer (like Dijkstra!) its a 2-click solution that needs installation :-; Still, GIVEN THE CONTEXT -- addressing not anyone but an already-GG user who is clueless about the nuisance he's causing -- I think this solution is easiest to all. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:42:40 -0800, rusi wrote: On Sunday, December 15, 2013 4:21:08 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so far in forgiving disruptive behaviour. I guess you are talking about https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython As you will see https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython?action=info most of the edits there are by rurpy and the recent ones (sorry I missed putting comments) which are for a more automatic solution are by me. I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Mark had done most of the work. I hadn't realised that others had contributed most of the practical advice. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On 12/14/2013 9:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:43:41 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote: This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of http://bugs.python.org/issue19914 to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows). help(str) Not enough memory. Terry, I see you have closed the bug report. I think you were a little hasty. I might have been premature, but I was not hasty. I read the SO reports and though about it for an hour or so while looking at other issues. I did not see any use to leaving it open as I did not see any realistic propect of a useful and acceptible patch to Python. The OP himself said that i/o did not work with 65001 and that not using it fixed his issue. The ultimate cause of the bug may be the failure of Window's more command when the code-page is set to CP-65001, but that doesn't necessarily imply that Python shouldn't, or can't, do something about it. I believe running Python on Windows with cp=65001 falls in the category of Don't do that. This is based on my experiences and the reported experience of other developers who have tried and failed to make it work, reinforced by the SO thread and a couple of other web pages. The interactive help system already supports different pagers, depending on the environment. I think that it could fall back on a more primitive pager if the preferred one fails. Do you know if 'more' actually signals failure? Do you know if there are any other situations in which a pager fails? The relevant code is the pager() and getpager() functions in the pydoc module. The patch won't be trivial, but I think it can be done, and I think it should be done. Although possibly for Python 3.5 rather than a bug-fix version. Your thoughts? My thought is that if the only situation in which a pager fails is one that one should not use, because other things will also fail, then a patch would not be worth the bother. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:42 PM, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: To me all this GG complaining sounds like some elderly mom-pop-uncle who weeps/coaxes/moans/pleads/grumbles/ about a fused light bulb, rather than climbing on a stool and changing the bloody thing. No, it's like moaning about Foo Brand light bulbs that die after two weeks, when there are perfectly good light bulbs that last for years if you'll just use a different brand. And there are people who say But Foo Brand light bulbs are easy, you just go up on a ladder every time you want to turn it on and make sure there's a good bulb in it!. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
On Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:30:12 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote: I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Mark had done most of the work. I hadn't realised that others had contributed most of the practical advice. To be fair, I added the stuff to the wiki on Mark's prompting. Earlier was under the impression that not anyone could edit the wiki. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
