Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Danno wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: >> This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as >> indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. This is not a >> comprehensive or fair survey, but does give some indications of >> popularity trends. >> >> http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html > > Wow, java is a low level industrial language? ;) Compared to Python, Ruby etc. - yes. Arne -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Xah Lee wrote: > Computer Language Popularity Trend > > This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as > indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. This is not a > comprehensive or fair survey, but does give some indications of > popularity trends. > > http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html > > Xah > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ∑ http://xahlee.org/ > And not a single deletable expletive in sight. Good stuff! regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://holdenweb.blogspot.com Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Stefan Scholl wrote: > In comp.lang.lisp Jon Ribbens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>> http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html > >> > >> Careful there with the sweeping generalizations and quick judgments > >> about languages :) > > > > I just read "PHP as a language is rather dry and business-like", > > and fell off my chair. > > Well, business really is that crazy! :-) Of the three people with whom I've worked who have sat on boards in the Fortune 100, at least two of them have screwy reference semantics ;). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
At Wednesday 27/9/2006 13:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You can also get a rough measure ot the popularity of web scripting > languages from an analysis of the URLs. The last time I did this was in > 2003, and as I recall, these were the results: > PHP 30% and increasing > Perl 28% and falling > ASP 25% and falling fast > ColdFusion 6% and steady > Java and JSP 5% and increasing > others, Python, Ruby, ... At the site I'm working on, you'd see a URL like http://www.whatever.com/login or http://www.whatever.com/boards?id=131 -- how would you count them? Such (extensionless) URLs are far more common in the Python, Ruby, and Java world in my experience than the PHP, Perl, and ASP world, so my first instinct looking at your numbers is to believe they're just biased toward languages that more often put the extension in the URL. Same thing with me, using Zope. The scripting language or machinery used is an implementation detail, so it should not appear on a URL, if you want them to be more or less permanents. Gabriel Genellina Softlab SRL __ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
John Bailo wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: > > Computer Language Popularity Trend > > > > This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as > > indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. > > The only problem being that in the last five years, there are now a > multiplicity of options for discussing any of these languages, in places > that are not Usenet. > > For example, Sun hosts a variety of bulletin boards on its java.net > site. Likewise Microsoft has it's "communities". > > My guess is that if you included all the new avenues the other languages > would have growth curves about the same shape as for LISP. > Good point - especially given the sheer volume of the microsoft groups. For example, I follow microsoft.public.excel.programming (and thus have been quite interested in the discussion in fa.haskell recently about finding a way for VBA to call Haskell functions) regularly and it almost always has hundreds of posts a day - most of them business-like discussions of code. Few of the traditional comp groups can boast of such volume - so any attempt to measure an ill-defined popularity by focusing on them will be skewed. -semiopen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Sherm Pendley wrote: > "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > >>Xah Lee wrote: >> >>>Computer Language Popularity Trend >>> >> >>Careful there with the sweeping generalizations and quick judgments > > > Such things are all Xah does. Look at the distribution list for this > message - of what possible use is cross-posting something like this to > five different language groups, unless you're trying to start a cross- > group argument? > > In short - Please don't feed the trolls. > > sherm-- > While Xah does have a reputation for trolling, and the crossposting borders on pathological, you must admit that he presents here a bit of nice and illuminating research. We probably should encourage him when he does worthwhile things, and perhaps, in the future, he will put more time towards them and less time towards the trolling for which he is famous. James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I don't think you can use any measure as an accurate yardstick, but > rather as an impressionistic canvas. Exactly. You can't measure "popularity" without defining the term. Xah Lee appears to define popularity based on the number of posts made in a given language's Usenet group (for his choice of which group belongs to a given language). Given that a substantial portion of the recent posts in each group is likely an off-topic Xah Lee crosspost, this metric is probably unreliable even for measuring his own intended metric: the amount of discussion taking place about each language on Usenet. How do you define popularity? Do you define it by how much people talk about a language on the internet? How many programs are written in it? How many lines of code are written in it? How many CPU cycles are used to run code written in it? None of these is fair, as it is. More people use Ada than talk about it online, because it is a common language in classified government work. More people talk about Lisp online than use it, because their jobs or other circumstances limit their choice to other languages. Moreover, most people use more than one language, and after a long day at the office of pumping out Java or Perl, they go home and talk about Lisp or C#. Online discussion isn't a measure of actual use, even if you can actually measure the total amount of discussion. The number of programs written is likely to be grossly inaccurate. People write millions of small C or Perl utilities all the time, to a combined effect of less problem-solving than one big Java application. The number of lines of code written in a language is also unfair, because it takes more lines of C than of almost any other language to solve most problems. The number of CPU cycles spent running code that was written in a given language is also unfair, because, for instance, Ruby code burns more CPU cycles to do something than C code does, in the average case. So, how do you define popularity? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > At the site I'm working on, you'd see a URL like > http://www.whatever.com/login or http://www.whatever.com/boards?id=131 > -- how would you count them? Such (extensionless) URLs are far more > common in the Python, Ruby, and Java world in my experience than the > PHP, Perl, and ASP world, so my first instinct looking at your numbers > is to believe they're just biased toward languages that more often put > the extension in the URL. Yeah. CGI is more than Perl, CGI also includes TCL and Python, and perhaps some others. In my limited JSP developments, we didn't use file extensions. I don't think you can use any measure as an accurate yardstick, but rather as an impressionistic canvas. Just because there are five times as many .cgi extensions as .jsp extensions doesn't mean that Perl is five times more popular that Java. Also, web apps tend to stick around, and we don't have a sure way to gauge the age of these pages, so it could be that, in the last year, the ration of JSP to CGI pages is five to one in favor of JSP. To some extent, the popularity of technologies is driven by the available resources. If there are many more Java programmers than Perl programmers, then Java wil appear to be more popular, and vice versa. I know that colleges and universities teach Java in their CS and IS courses, and they don't teach Perl. CC -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
There is one index at : http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm It isn't much reliable, put still I think it is a bit reliable. Also, you might use number of open source projects at Sourceforge for the given language for giving assumptions, or number of job openings at Monster, i.e. -- Mladen Adamovic http://www.online-utility.org http://www.cheapvps.info http://www.vpsreview.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Xah Lee wrote: > Computer Language Popularity Trend > > This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as > indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. The only problem being that in the last five years, there are now a multiplicity of options for discussing any of these languages, in places that are not Usenet. For example, Sun hosts a variety of bulletin boards on its java.net site. Likewise Microsoft has it's "communities". My guess is that if you included all the new avenues the other languages would have growth curves about the same shape as for LISP. -- Texeme Construct -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
In comp.lang.lisp Jon Ribbens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html >> >> Careful there with the sweeping generalizations and quick judgments >> about languages :) > > I just read "PHP as a language is rather dry and business-like", > and fell off my chair. Well, business really is that crazy! :-) -- Web (en): http://www.no-spoon.de/ -*- Web (de): http://www.frell.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Joe Marshall wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: > >>Computer Language Popularity Trend >> >>This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as >>indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. This is not a >>comprehensive or fair survey, but does give some indications of >>popularity trends. > > > Suggestions: > Provide a log-scale plot. You can clearly see that there are > exponential trends in the data, these will turn into lines in > log-scale. You can also see that the plots get more widely distributed > as the number of posts increase. This too will be minimized in > log-scale. > > Make the horizontal scale for the `scripting' languages the same as > the others. I know there isn't data out on the left of the graph, but > it surprised me to see points out there until I noticed the scale > change. > > For the Google trends, try looking for `java programming' or `written > in python' to avoid picking up the island and the popular comedy troupe. > I'd also encourage normalisation so the highest value on all scales is the same height. The absolute numbers are neither as interesting nor as significant as the trends. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://holdenweb.blogspot.com Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You can also get a rough measure ot the popularity of web scripting > languages from an analysis of the URLs. The last time I did this was in > 2003, and as I recall, these were the results: > PHP 30% and increasing > Perl 28% and falling > ASP 25% and falling fast > ColdFusion 6% and steady > Java and JSP 5% and increasing > others, Python, Ruby, ... At the site I'm working on, you'd see a URL like http://www.whatever.com/login or http://www.whatever.com/boards?id=131 -- how would you count them? Such (extensionless) URLs are far more common in the Python, Ruby, and Java world in my experience than the PHP, Perl, and ASP world, so my first instinct looking at your numbers is to believe they're just biased toward languages that more often put the extension in the URL. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Xah Lee wrote: > Computer Language Popularity Trend > > This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as > indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. This is not a > comprehensive or fair survey, but does give some indications of > popularity trends. Suggestions: Provide a log-scale plot. You can clearly see that there are exponential trends in the data, these will turn into lines in log-scale. You can also see that the plots get more widely distributed as the number of posts increase. This too will be minimized in log-scale. Make the horizontal scale for the `scripting' languages the same as the others. I know there isn't data out on the left of the graph, but it surprised me to see points out there until I noticed the scale change. For the Google trends, try looking for `java programming' or `written in python' to avoid picking up the island and the popular comedy troupe. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Xah Lee wrote: >> Computer Language Popularity Trend >> > > Careful there with the sweeping generalizations and quick judgments Such things are all Xah does. Look at the distribution list for this message - of what possible use is cross-posting something like this to five different language groups, unless you're trying to start a cross- group argument? In short - Please don't feed the trolls. sherm-- -- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
I, too, attempt to track the popularity of computer languages, but I like to look at the job boards. My theory is that the number of employers looking for particular skills indicates the relative popularity of the language. This is a somewhat crude measure, particularly with Microsoft technologies (VB, VB6, VB.NET, VS, etc). I think it's much more reliable with open source languages, such as Java, Perl, PHP, and so on. 'Popularity' is a slippery concept as well. C isn't real popular in terms of jobs, but it is in terms of compensation. In system administration (which I also follow), Windows has large numbers of jobs, but a low level of compensation. OSes like AIX on the other hand have lower numbers of available jobs, but those tend to be more highly compensated. One could argue that compensation is a function of popularity, with the more unpoular technologies having carrying a bigger price to attract more people -- an example of supply and demand -- but then one would have to argue that garbade collectors should be more highly compensated that physicians. You can also get a rough measure ot the popularity of web scripting languages from an analysis of the URLs. The last time I did this was in 2003, and as I recall, these were the results: PHP 30% and increasing Perl 28% and falling ASP 25% and falling fast ColdFusion 6% and steady Java and JSP 5% and increasing others, Python, Ruby, ... Again, this is a very rough measure. Java, for instance, is used by big companies (like auto manufacturers, aerospace industries, defense contractors, big retailers, etc.) One site/one vote isn't representative necessarily, plus the bigger companies employ more people than the smaller companies that tend to use FOSS. Finally, in my area, we have a lot of banking and insurance jobs. These companies internally are exclusively Microsoft shops. It's virtually impossible to work there unless you know Visual Studio and SQL Server. Misrosoft people tend not to prowl the newsgroups, and I would suspect that any measurement based on numbers of newsgroup postings would be skewed for this reason. CC -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: >> Computer Language Popularity Trend >> >> This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as >> indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. This is not a >> comprehensive or fair survey, but does give some indications of >> popularity trends. >> >> http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html > > Careful there with the sweeping generalizations and quick judgments > about languages :) > > Furthermore, it's nice to conclude that Lisp is getting more popular, > but we also have to take into account global trends (maybe more people > are using usenet in general? maybe the total number of programmers in > the world is increasing?). > > Still, it's nice to see trends plotted out like that, thanks for the > work :) > > mfh > Finally, a contribution of substance from lambda. Who woulda thunk it? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html > > Careful there with the sweeping generalizations and quick judgments > about languages :) I just read "PHP as a language is rather dry and business-like", and fell off my chair. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Xah Lee wrote: > Computer Language Popularity Trend > > This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as > indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. This is not a > comprehensive or fair survey, but does give some indications of > popularity trends. > > http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html Careful there with the sweeping generalizations and quick judgments about languages :) Furthermore, it's nice to conclude that Lisp is getting more popular, but we also have to take into account global trends (maybe more people are using usenet in general? maybe the total number of programmers in the world is increasing?). Still, it's nice to see trends plotted out like that, thanks for the work :) mfh -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Computer Language Popularity Trend
Xah Lee wrote: > Computer Language Popularity Trend > > This page gives a visual report of computer languages's popularity, as > indicated by their traffic level in newsgroups. This is not a > comprehensive or fair survey, but does give some indications of > popularity trends. > > http://xahlee.org/lang_traf/index.html > > Xah > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ∑ http://xahlee.org/ Wow, java is a low level industrial language? ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list