Re: Convention vs. fascism
Aaron Brady cas@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 15, 6:41 pm, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this- cybersource.com.au wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:24:19 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:58:49 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:08:37 +0100, Diez B. Roggisch wrote: Familiarize yourself with PEP8 for naming and coding-conventions first. 8 -- stuff giving Diez a hard time for the above Oh come on you lot - you are carrying on as if Diez were wearing his skull socks again - do me a favour and give him a break! - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Convention vs. fascism
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:03:28 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: Oh come on you lot - you are carrying on as if Diez were wearing his skull socks again - do me a favour and give him a break! Well, for what it's worth, I should say one final thing: I didn't disagree with what Diez said, only the way he said it. I thought my original post made that clear, but perhaps I should have said so explicitly. And I certainly don't think less of him because of it. And... skull socks? Cool. Where can I get some? -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Convention vs. fascism [OT]
Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-thisurce.com.au wrote: And... skull socks? Cool. Where can I get some? Don't you remember? - Google the group - there was some dust raised about them some time ago. I think he got them from KDW - Kaufhaus Der Welt aka Klau Dir Was :-) - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Skull Socks (was Re: Convention vs. fascism)
On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 08:57 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:03:28 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: Oh come on you lot - you are carrying on as if Diez were wearing his skull socks again - do me a favour and give him a break! And... skull socks? Cool. Where can I get some? http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/search?q=skull+socks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Skull Socks (was Re: Convention vs. fascism)
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:01:18 -0500, J. Cliff Dyer wrote: On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 08:57 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:03:28 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: Oh come on you lot - you are carrying on as if Diez were wearing his skull socks again - do me a favour and give him a break! And... skull socks? Cool. Where can I get some? http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/search?q=skull+socks Not Found The requested URL /search was not found on this server. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. You know, it was just a throw-away comment to lighten the mood. I don't really need to see 18,000+ links to places that sell socks with skulls printed on them. On the other hand, if they were socks made from actual skulls, that would be something... -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Skull Socks (was Re: Convention vs. fascism)
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:01:18 -0500, J. Cliff Dyer wrote: On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 08:57 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:03:28 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: Oh come on you lot - you are carrying on as if Diez were wearing his skull socks again - do me a favour and give him a break! And... skull socks? Cool. Where can I get some? http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/search?q=skull+socks Not Found The requested URL /search was not found on this server. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. You know, it was just a throw-away comment to lighten the mood. I don't really need to see 18,000+ links to places that sell socks with skulls printed on them. On the other hand, if they were socks made from actual skulls, that would be something... Of course Cliff actually meant http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=skull+socks Jokes are never as funny when they go wrong :) -- Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Skull Socks (was Re: Convention vs. fascism)
On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 16:41 -0500, Steve Holden wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:01:18 -0500, J. Cliff Dyer wrote: On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 08:57 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:03:28 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: Oh come on you lot - you are carrying on as if Diez were wearing his skull socks again - do me a favour and give him a break! And... skull socks? Cool. Where can I get some? http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/search?q=skull+socks Not Found The requested URL /search was not found on this server. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. You know, it was just a throw-away comment to lighten the mood. I don't really need to see 18,000+ links to places that sell socks with skulls printed on them. On the other hand, if they were socks made from actual skulls, that would be something... Of course Cliff actually meant http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=skull+socks Jokes are never as funny when they go wrong :) Maybe I could run a teach me letmegooglethatforyou.com at pycon this year. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Convention vs. fascism (was: General direction)
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:58:49 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:08:37 +0100, Diez B. Roggisch wrote: Familiarize yourself with PEP8 for naming and coding-conventions first. Enough of the PEP8-fascism please. It is not compulsory to follow PEP8 in order to be allowed to learn Python. If Guido wanted it compulsory, he'd have made the compiler enforce it. You are responding to something in Diez's message that I can't see. Nowhere does he say anything about PEP 8 being compulsory. Quite the contrary, he suggests gaining *familiarity* with PEP 8, and calls it a set of *conventions*. He doesn't *suggest* anything. He uses the imperative case -- it's a command. It may not have been Diez's deliberate, conscious intention to order the OP to learn PEP8, but without a modifier like I think you should, that's what he did. That's why I emphasised suggest in my response: it's not an order, but it is recommended. On its own, that wouldn't have been enough to warrant a response. I'm sure I've thoughtlessly and inappropriately used unmodified imperative commands in the past, and I'll probably do it again. But add to it the perfunctory way he used this mysterious (to a newbie) jargon PEP8, without even the courtesy of a link, and the overall tone was newbie hostile. I'm sure that wasn't Diez's intention, because the rest of his post was not like that. Having said that, I will *suggest* to the Original Poster that you should follow PEP8 as much as possible. It will save you a lot of grief in the long run. This, on the other hand, seems pretty much a re-phrasing of what Diez already said. That's because I agree with Diez that following PEP8 is generally a good thing, but don't agree with him that it is necessary to learn the naming conventions before learning the language. An overly strict approach will just frighten the newbies off. Part of the reason that Python is successful is that it is accessible to newbies, and giving them strict Thou Shalt Do This commands is quite off-putting. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Convention vs. fascism
Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:58:49 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:08:37 +0100, Diez B. Roggisch wrote: Familiarize yourself with PEP8 for naming and coding-conventions first. Enough of the PEP8-fascism please. It is not compulsory to follow PEP8 in order to be allowed to learn Python. You are responding to something in Diez's message that I can't see. Nowhere does he say anything about PEP 8 being compulsory. Quite the contrary, he suggests gaining *familiarity* with PEP 8, and calls it a set of *conventions*. He doesn't *suggest* anything. He uses the imperative case -- it's a command. Regardless, even if it was an imperial order with government backing, the instruction was not to *follow* PEP 8, but to *become familiar with* it. That isn't fascism, and to read that into it and assume a commandment that Diez didn't make is overreaction on your part. -- \ “[W]hoever is able to make you absurd is able to make you | `\unjust.” —Voltaire | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Convention vs. fascism
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:24:19 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:58:49 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:08:37 +0100, Diez B. Roggisch wrote: Familiarize yourself with PEP8 for naming and coding-conventions first. Enough of the PEP8-fascism please. It is not compulsory to follow PEP8 in order to be allowed to learn Python. You are responding to something in Diez's message that I can't see. Nowhere does he say anything about PEP 8 being compulsory. Quite the contrary, he suggests gaining *familiarity* with PEP 8, and calls it a set of *conventions*. He doesn't *suggest* anything. He uses the imperative case -- it's a command. Regardless, even if it was an imperial order with government backing, the instruction was not to *follow* PEP 8, but to *become familiar with* it. That isn't fascism, and to read that into it and assume a commandment that Diez didn't make is overreaction on your part. Okay, fair enough, I made a mistake in saying It is not compulsory to follow PEP8. What I should have said was It is not compulsory to become familiar with PEP8. Now that you've put me in my place, can we please get back to becoming a hostile and unforgiving place for newbies who dare to try learning Python without first becoming familiar with PEP8? *wink* Seriously, I'll accept a small rebuke. My choice of the word fascism was poor, and I regret it. In my defense, I thought it was better than my initial thought, which was style-Nazi, but in hindsight given the proliferation of somewhat tongue-in-cheek foo-Nazi terms (soup-Nazi, grammar-Nazi, fashion-Nazi, etc.) maybe I should have stuck with it. But by focusing on such a small aspect of my post (a quarter of my text), while ignoring the more substantial aspects, it seems that you are giving tacit approval of precisely the attitude I am objecting to: that there is a One True And Correct Right Way to learn and/or use Python. For a community that celebrates the dynamism of the language, and supports giving the programmer the ability to shoot themselves in the foot (we're all adults here), we can sometimes be remarkably intolerant of things which are a matter of taste. Sometimes it seems that there's a Party line, and individuals can be criticized for failing to be enthusiastic enough about supporting it. This is a good example: it isn't enough that I agreed with Diez's substantial point that PEP8 is a good thing; it isn't enough that I made it more likely that the OP would find and read PEP8 by posting a link to it; but by making a mild criticism of *the way* Diez introduced PEP8 to the newbie, *I'm* the bad guy. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Convention vs. fascism
Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: But by focusing on such a small aspect of my post (a quarter of my text), It clearly was important to you, since you phrased it in highly emotive terms (and even, by your account, had to scale the emotion back a little). So, I don't think the proportion of number-of-characters is relevant there. while ignoring the more substantial aspects Sure, I took that one part and made a new topic from it. This is open discussion, man. I even changed the subject field to be clear :-) it seems that you are giving tacit approval of precisely the attitude I am objecting to: that there is a One True And Correct Right Way to learn and/or use Python. Nope. -- \“Madness is rare in individuals, but in groups, parties, | `\nations and ages it is the rule.” —Friedrich Nietzsche | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Convention vs. fascism
On Jan 15, 6:41 pm, Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this- cybersource.com.au wrote: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:24:19 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:58:49 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano st...@remove-this-cybersource.com.au writes: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:08:37 +0100, Diez B. Roggisch wrote: Familiarize yourself with PEP8 for naming and coding-conventions first. Enough of the PEP8-fascism please. It is not compulsory to follow PEP8 in order to be allowed to learn Python. You are responding to something in Diez's message that I can't see. Nowhere does he say anything about PEP 8 being compulsory. Quite the contrary, he suggests gaining *familiarity* with PEP 8, and calls it a set of *conventions*. He doesn't *suggest* anything. He uses the imperative case -- it's a command. Regardless, even if it was an imperial order with government backing, the instruction was not to *follow* PEP 8, but to *become familiar with* it. That isn't fascism, and to read that into it and assume a commandment that Diez didn't make is overreaction on your part. Okay, fair enough, I made a mistake in saying It is not compulsory to follow PEP8. What I should have said was It is not compulsory to become familiar with PEP8. People are sensitive in differing amounts to the imperative case. I'm really sensitive to it, and I appreciate it when people say *plonk* instead of *lonk*. Diez took an authoritarian posture with the imperative. Instead of saying what benefit the OP would get from complying, the subtext in such cases is, I'm in charge. If you haven't heard of me, get out. Do what I say, or get out. That might be extreme, but you'd be hard pressed to defend an interpretation of what he said to be, One good option is to skim PEP 8 early. It has a low-maintenance, long-term benefit. It's much more common to use an imperative in a chain of command, as in Swab the deck, or Convert the heathens, where a task is critical to a collective mission, or, regrettably, in reminding people who has the gun, such as in an enforced hierarchy. There is no chain of command or gun in the Python community (that I've found), at least outside of the core devs, which I can't attest to. IMO, it's most likely Diez was performing a hazing ritual on a newcomer, that he'd forgotten he didn't like when he did it. Now that you've put me in my place, can we please get back to becoming a hostile and unforgiving place for newbies who dare to try learning Python without first becoming familiar with PEP8? Let us compose odes and sonnets to its glory. (Imperative.) *wink* Seriously, I'll accept a small rebuke. My choice of the word fascism was poor, and I regret it. In my defense, I thought it was better than my initial thought, which was style-Nazi, but in hindsight given the proliferation of somewhat tongue-in-cheek foo-Nazi terms (soup-Nazi, grammar-Nazi, fashion-Nazi, etc.) maybe I should have stuck with it. You could probably stick with 'style police', as in 'fashion police', as in, Don't worry about Diez, he's the self-appointed style police. Sorry, heard it on t.v. once. But by focusing on such a small aspect of my post (a quarter of my text), while ignoring the more substantial aspects, it seems that you are giving tacit approval of precisely the attitude I am objecting to: that there is a One True And Correct Right Way to learn and/or use Python. Not only is there One True And Correct Right Way(tm), but I'm the only one who knows what it is. For a community that celebrates the dynamism of the language, and supports giving the programmer the ability to shoot themselves in the foot (we're all adults here) For what definition of 'here'? we can sometimes be remarkably intolerant of things which are a matter of taste. -- Your code tastes funny. -- Stop chewing it and swallow. (Imperative.) Sometimes it seems that there's a Party line, and individuals can be criticized for failing to be enthusiastic enough about supporting it. This is a good example: it isn't enough that I agreed with Diez's substantial point that PEP8 is a good thing; it isn't enough that I made it more likely that the OP would find and read PEP8 by posting a link to it; but by making a mild criticism of *the way* Diez introduced PEP8 to the newbie, *I'm* the bad guy. I think you're ignoring the diversity of backgrounds that people from around the world can have. Maybe in Diez's past lives, friends just roughhouse and show acceptance and affection by using imperatives. Maybe it is a bellowed 'WELCOME!', instead of an unchecked power bid. Steven Ever find it hard to get personal with a newsgroup? A. Brady P.S. Not that questions are any better. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
