Re: Defamation

[John O'Hagan]

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:19:14 +0200
Laura Creighton  wrote:


>  One thing to recall is that 'who/what can be defamed' 
> varies a lot.  In Sweden you cannot defame a corporation.  The
> defamation regulations in the Penal Code only apply to private
> individuals.  If you cannot bleed, you cannot be defamed.  In certain
> situations the Swedish Marketing Act may be used to stop defamation of
> a corporate entity -- if a rival has, without basis, tainted a rival's
> reputation -- but this sort of protection is limited.  This makes
> Sweden an attractive place to discuss Mosanto, and their evil
> practices, even though, like a lot of places Sweden's defamation
> law does not have a clause saying roughly 'if it is true, it isn't
> defamation'.  Just 'intent to villify' is enough.  
> 
> Laura

Corporations also cannot be defamed here in Australia, but truth is a
complete defence. On the other hand, intent is irrelevant. This has the
unfortunate consequence that by mocking a fictional character you run
the risk of defaming a real person who happens to have the same name,
or even similar characteristics, even if you have never heard of them. 

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Re: Defamation

[John O'Hagan]

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:19:14 +0200
Laura Creighton  wrote:


>  One thing to recall is that 'who/what can be defamed' 
> varies a lot.  In Sweden you cannot defame a corporation.  The
> defamation regulations in the Penal Code only apply to private
> individuals.  If you cannot bleed, you cannot be defamed.  In certain
> situations the Swedish Marketing Act may be used to stop defamation of
> a corporate entity -- if a rival has, without basis, tainted a rival's
> reputation -- but this sort of protection is limited.  This makes
> Sweden an attractive place to discuss Mosanto, and their evil
> practices, even though, like a lot of places Sweden's defamation
> law does not have a clause saying roughly 'if it is true, it isn't
> defamation'.  Just 'intent to villify' is enough.  
> 
> Laura

Corporations also cannot be defamed here in Australia (but only since
2006). Truth is a complete defence; but on the other hand,
intent is irrelevant. This has the unfortunate consequence that by
mocking a fictional character you run the risk of defaming a real
person who happens to have the same name, or even similar
characteristics, even if you have never heard of them. 

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Re: Defamation

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 11:45 AM, John O'Hagan  wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:09:18 +1100
> Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>
>
>> I don't believe that the Python mailing list archives are hosted in a
>> country under the jurisdiction of European Law. If I'm right, then
>> removing posts sets a dangerous precedent of obeying laws in foreign
>> countries that don't apply.
>
> For better or worse, that's not how defamation law works. Generally,
> the defaming is regarded as happening where the material is read, i.e.
> at the point of download. The location of upload, hosting etc is
> irrelevant, although the uploader and the host can both be liable
> along with the author. Of course, the point is moot if none of those
> people has assets in that jurisdiction.

So... someone in Europe who rents a server in the US has to worry
about defamation law in literally every country on this planet, or
else IP-ban people from accessing the server, just in case s/he's
liable? Is that really how this works? Ouch.

ChrisA
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Re: Defamation

[John O'Hagan]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:09:18 +1100
Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

 
> I don't believe that the Python mailing list archives are hosted in a
> country under the jurisdiction of European Law. If I'm right, then
> removing posts sets a dangerous precedent of obeying laws in foreign
> countries that don't apply.

For better or worse, that's not how defamation law works. Generally,
the defaming is regarded as happening where the material is read, i.e.
at the point of download. The location of upload, hosting etc is
irrelevant, although the uploader and the host can both be liable
along with the author. Of course, the point is moot if none of those
people has assets in that jurisdiction. 

For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Jones_%26_Co_Inc_v_Gutnick

On the specific point, I think it's possible to agree with both
Steven and Laura. It's a bad idea to obey laws that don't apply to
you if you'd rather not. It's also a good idea if possible to remove
defamatory material, not because it might be illegal, but because it's
defamatory. 

Regards

John


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Re: Defamation

[Oscar Benjamin]

On 22 October 2015 at 09:05, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 11:45 AM, John O'Hagan  wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:09:18 +1100
>> Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I don't believe that the Python mailing list archives are hosted in a
>>> country under the jurisdiction of European Law. If I'm right, then
>>> removing posts sets a dangerous precedent of obeying laws in foreign
>>> countries that don't apply.
>>
>> For better or worse, that's not how defamation law works. Generally,
>> the defaming is regarded as happening where the material is read, i.e.
>> at the point of download. The location of upload, hosting etc is
>> irrelevant, although the uploader and the host can both be liable
>> along with the author. Of course, the point is moot if none of those
>> people has assets in that jurisdiction.
>
> So... someone in Europe who rents a server in the US has to worry
> about defamation law in literally every country on this planet, or
> else IP-ban people from accessing the server, just in case s/he's
> liable? Is that really how this works? Ouch.

Yeah the idea of national laws being subject to some kind of
internationally agreed jurisdiction is nice but has never been
implemented. Since you mention the US it's worth noting that some US
federal laws effectively have global jurisdiction. This means that
someone anywhere in the world can be deemed to have committed a
criminal offence under certain US laws even if their actions are
entirely legal under local law.

I have a feeling that something may have changed recently but
certainly until a few years ago we used to have lots of cases of
"libel tourism" in the UK. This is where someone decides to bring a
libel case which has nothing to do with the UK before the UK courts
because libel law here is steeped in favour of the litigant. UK law
requires the case to have a connection to the UK but the courts were
apparently prepared to accept very tenuous connections (presumably
because the whole business could function as an "export" bringing
loads of money to all the lawyers involved). AFAIK these cases usually
concerned foreign newspaper websites rather than something like the
archive here though.

Leaving aside the issue of "defamation" the posts that have been
removed here are IMO "spam" and it's entirely reasonable to remove
them regardless of any legal issues.

--
Oscar
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Re: Defamation

[Oscar Benjamin]

On 22 October 2015 at 12:36, Laura Creighton  wrote:
>
> The UK libel reform act of 2013, I see, may be responsible for
> the decline in libel tourism.
> http://www.libelreform.org/

Yes I think so. From Wikipedia:
"""
A court does not have jurisdiction to hear and determine any action,
unless the court is satisfied that, of all the places in which the
statement complained of has been published, England and Wales is
clearly the most appropriate.
"""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_Act_2013#Jurisdiction

Libel tourism cases often would occur for a foreign publication that
was not distributed in printed form in the UK but had a website that
was globally accessible. A case might be brought on the strength of
say a hundred UK downloads from the website despite the publication
having a printed circulation of hundreds of thousands in some other
country (and the authors and complainants all being in the same other
country). I can't recall any specific cases right now though...

If the court needs to be satisfied that England and Wales is the
_most_ appropriate place to hear the case then this would rule out the
libel tourism cases I used to hear about. Apparently this only applies
to England and Wales though leaving Northern Ireland as a new
preferred location for libel tourism.

--
Oscar
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Re: Defamation

[Laura Creighton]

The UK libel reform act of 2013, I see, may be responsible for 
the decline in libel tourism.
http://www.libelreform.org/

Laura

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Re: Defamation

[Laura Creighton]

In a message of Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:33:13 +0100, Oscar Benjamin writes:
>I have a feeling that something may have changed recently but
>certainly until a few years ago we used to have lots of cases of
>"libel tourism" in the UK. This is where someone decides to bring a
>libel case which has nothing to do with the UK before the UK courts
>because libel law here is steeped in favour of the litigant. UK law
>requires the case to have a connection to the UK but the courts were
>apparently prepared to accept very tenuous connections (presumably
>because the whole business could function as an "export" bringing
>loads of money to all the lawyers involved). AFAIK these cases usually
>concerned foreign newspaper websites rather than something like the
>archive here though.

Very interesting.  Any prominent court decisions that could be scaring
them off?  One thing to recall is that 'who/what can be defamed' 
varies a lot.  In Sweden you cannot defame a corporation.  The
defamation regulations in the Penal Code only apply to private
individuals.  If you cannot bleed, you cannot be defamed.  In certain
situations the Swedish Marketing Act may be used to stop defamation of
a corporate entity -- if a rival has, without basis, tainted a rival's
reputation -- but this sort of protection is limited.  This makes
Sweden an attractive place to discuss Mosanto, and their evil
practices, even though, like a lot of places Sweden's defamation
law does not have a clause saying roughly 'if it is true, it isn't
defamation'.  Just 'intent to villify' is enough.  

Laura
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Defamation

[John O'Hagan]

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:05:04 +1100
Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 11:45 AM, John O'Hagan 
[...]

> >
> > For better or worse, that's not how defamation law works. Generally,
> > the defaming is regarded as happening where the material is read,
> > i.e. at the point of download. The location of upload, hosting etc
> > is irrelevant, although the uploader and the host can both be liable
> > along with the author. Of course, the point is moot if none of those
> > people has assets in that jurisdiction.
> 
> So... someone in Europe who rents a server in the US has to worry
> about defamation law in literally every country on this planet, or
> else IP-ban people from accessing the server, just in case s/he's
> liable? Is that really how this works? Ouch.
> 

It does seem harsh, and that Gutnick case I linked to was greeted with
great alarm around the world back in 2002 for the same reasons as
you've raised. In fact, some predicted a new age of "libel tourism",
where people would travel to countries with especially harsh laws in
order to sue, and the subsequent "death of the internet".

But it hasn't turned out as badly as all that. The only noticeable
change has been some cautious online publishers requiring readers
to register. As I mentioned, it's only an issue if the defamed has
reputation and the defamer has assets in the same jurisdiction. 

Once you think it through, it's pretty logical. If I write a defamatory
letter about you and put it in a mailbox (upload it to a server), no
defamation has happened yet. If someone reads it later (downloads it) in
a country where no-one has heard of you, still no defamation. If
someone reads it in a country where everyone knows you,
but where I have no property, then technically there is defamation
but you have no way to make me pay. It's only a civil claim so it's not
like I'll have a criminal record or Interpol on my tail or anything.

The other reason it makes sense is the alternative. If server location
determined the jurisdiction, you'd have Cayman-style "libel-havens"
with super-lax laws, stacked with servers people could use to
defame anyone anywhere with impunity. I love free speech but not that
much.

Regards

John 

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Re: Defamation

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:45 am, John O'Hagan wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:09:18 +1100
> Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> 
>  
>> I don't believe that the Python mailing list archives are hosted in a
>> country under the jurisdiction of European Law. If I'm right, then
>> removing posts sets a dangerous precedent of obeying laws in foreign
>> countries that don't apply.
> 
> For better or worse, that's not how defamation law works. Generally,
> the defaming is regarded as happening where the material is read, i.e.
> at the point of download. The location of upload, hosting etc is
> irrelevant, although the uploader and the host can both be liable
> along with the author. Of course, the point is moot if none of those
> people has assets in that jurisdiction.
> 
> For example:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Jones_%26_Co_Inc_v_Gutnick


You can't generalise from a ruling in one state (Australia) when other
country's legal systems may (and almost certainly are) different. For
example, the US explicitly prohibits their courts from enforcing foreign
libel or defamation suits unless the other country provides at least as
much protection for free speech as does the US.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I remember that case very well, and I think the
judges were terribly naive in some of their comments. Specifically, they
poo-pooed the suggestion that the ruling could lead to a flurry of
defamation actions in Australia against publications all over the world. If
they were right, it was more by good luck than by good reasoning: the UK,
not Australia, was the go-to place for "libel tourism".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel_tourism


> On the specific point, I think it's possible to agree with both
> Steven and Laura. It's a bad idea to obey laws that don't apply to
> you if you'd rather not. It's also a good idea if possible to remove
> defamatory material, not because it might be illegal, but because it's
> defamatory.

Defamatory according to whom, according to what standards?

Standards vary greatly. It is hard to prove defamation in the US, it was
ridiculously easy in the UK (things are better since the Simon Singh case
inspired the UK government to change the law), and in places like Singapore
defamation is a thinly disguised weapons for the ruling party to use to
attack political opponents and critics, and protect themselves from having
their corrupt activities revealed.

http://singaporepress.pbworks.com/w/page/11489265/Defamation%20Act
http://www.irrawaddy.org/asia/in-singapore-the-economics-of-defamation.html
http://singaporedissident.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/lee-family-will-not-sue-for-defamation.html
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw02/020926au.htm

Including ordinary bloggers:

http://blogs.wsj.com/indonesiarealtime/2014/06/04/libel-suit-turns-singapore-blogger-into-underdog-for-pensioners/




-- 
Steven

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Re: Defamation

[Laura Creighton]

In a message of Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:30:35 +1100, "Steven D'Aprano" writes:
>On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:44 am, Laura Creighton wrote:
>> No, we are removing them because we want to.
>
>Who are "we"? You're not talking about *you and me*.

Anybody who was involved in deciding whether or not to remove them.
You, me, Ralf, Skip, Tim Golden, Terry, anybody else who is interested.



>If that's the case, that would be fantastic, but are you *sure* it works
>like that? Skip Montanaro made it clear that removing posts from the
>archives regenerates URLs for the whole month:
>
>http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/python/python/1176035

Yes. And if you read the rest of the thread you will see how it was proposed
to avoid that problem, with a placeholder, and thereafter Skip wrote a 
script that implemented exactly that.

>-- 
>Steven

What I am objecting to is the 'slippery slope' argument.  That, there
are bad laws some places, and some bad reasons to remove postings
doesn't mean that we should attempt to duck the responsibility of
using our own discernment by instituting a mindless policy.  That only
_buries_ the need for making a judgment call, and makes it harder to
make the right one when the right one is 'remove this thing'.

Laura

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Re: Defamation

[Ralf Hildebrandt]

> According to Ralf, python.org is hosted in the Netherlands, 

One could change that.

> I want to buy peanut butter, but I don't, because I know that when it comes
> to peanut butter I have no self-control and would eat the entire jar in a
> single sitting. So I simply don't buy it in the first place, and the
> problem is solved.

That's what I do when it comes to candy in general )

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt   Charite Universitätsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebra...@charite.deCampus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de  Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Geschäftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155
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Re: Defamation

[Terry Reedy]

On 10/21/2015 2:53 AM, Laura Creighton wrote:

In a message of Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:30:35 +1100, "Steven D'Aprano" writes:

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:44 am, Laura Creighton wrote:

No, we are removing them because we want to.


Who are "we"? You're not talking about *you and me*.


Anybody who was involved in deciding whether or not to remove them.
You, me, Ralf, Skip, Tim Golden, Terry, anybody else who is interested.




If that's the case, that would be fantastic, but are you *sure* it works
like that? Skip Montanaro made it clear that removing posts from the
archives regenerates URLs for the whole month:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/python/python/1176035


Yes. And if you read the rest of the thread you will see how it was proposed
to avoid that problem, with a placeholder, and thereafter Skip wrote a
script that implemented exactly that.


The moderators intend and try to delete such posts as those under 
discussion before they reach the list, by both automatic and manual 
filtering.  They are doing pretty well, but some posters have actively 
evaded this process (and give us training examples to improve the 
process).  I think that posts that would have unquestionably been 
deleted before being distributed are fair game to be replaced at least 
in our archive after the fact.  I appreciate the people who have done 
this cleanup work.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
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Re: Defamation

[Ralf Hildebrandt]

* Laura Creighton :

> Actually, this one was part of a huge set of defaming articles sent a
> year ago we were requested to remove, and did.  European Law may
> require us to do so.  I checked, and this article wasn't one on
> our list, which is why we missed this one.

Note that the "next in thread" also was of defamatory content. Removed
as well.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt   Charite Universitätsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebra...@charite.deCampus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de  Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Geschäftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155
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Re: Defamation

[Laura Creighton]

In a message of Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:09:18 +1100, "Steven D'Aprano" writes:
>On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 03:28 am, Laura Creighton wrote:
>
>> Actually, this one was part of a huge set of defaming articles sent a
>> year ago we were requested to remove, and did.  European Law may
>> require us to do so.  I checked, and this article wasn't one on
>> our list, which is why we missed this one.

>Today we're removing allegedly defaming posts because European law may or
>may not apply (probably doesn't); tomorrow we're removing posts because
>they fall foul of unreasonable laws anywhere in the world.

No, we are removing them because we want to.  

>The point is, obeying laws that don't apply, even if well-meaning, opens us
>to a dangerous precedent that we shouldn't go near.

Pointedly not doing something you want to because it might make us
obedient to some law we don't have to obey seems a matter of
cutting off ones nose to spite one's face.

>There's another reason to try very, very hard to avoid deleting archived
>posts: until such time as python.org moves to Mailman3, deleting a single
>posts breaks the permalinks for *every single post* for the entire month.

No, I think we were smarter than that in the script.

>Steven

Laura

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Re: Defamation

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:44 am, Laura Creighton wrote:

> In a message of Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:09:18 +1100, "Steven D'Aprano" writes:
>>On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 03:28 am, Laura Creighton wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, this one was part of a huge set of defaming articles sent a
>>> year ago we were requested to remove, and did.  European Law may
>>> require us to do so.  I checked, and this article wasn't one on
>>> our list, which is why we missed this one.
> 
>>Today we're removing allegedly defaming posts because European law may or
>>may not apply (probably doesn't); tomorrow we're removing posts because
>>they fall foul of unreasonable laws anywhere in the world.
> 
> No, we are removing them because we want to.

Who are "we"? You're not talking about *you and me*.

According to Ralf, python.org is hosted in the Netherlands, so I think EU
law does apply, in which case my comments are irrelevant. I'm not
suggesting that the python-list maintainers ignore applicable law.

But I'll reply to your comments anyway:

>>The point is, obeying laws that don't apply, even if well-meaning, opens
>>us to a dangerous precedent that we shouldn't go near.
> 
> Pointedly not doing something you want to because it might make us
> obedient to some law we don't have to obey seems a matter of
> cutting off ones nose to spite one's face.

On the contrary, I think avoiding something that you want to do because you
know that it will be bad in the long term is a very adult thing to do.

I want to buy peanut butter, but I don't, because I know that when it comes
to peanut butter I have no self-control and would eat the entire jar in a
single sitting. So I simply don't buy it in the first place, and the
problem is solved.

If there is something I want to do, whether it is "eat the entire
cake", "spend all my money on books", or "delete archived emails I don't
approve of", before I do it I try to think about the consequences first.

We could have a long and interesting debate over the issue of where and when
folks should obey laws belonging to other countries, but here is not the
right forum, and if Ralf is right it's not even relevant in this case, so
I'll move on.

>>There's another reason to try very, very hard to avoid deleting archived
>>posts: until such time as python.org moves to Mailman3, deleting a single
>>posts breaks the permalinks for *every single post* for the entire month.
> 
> No, I think we were smarter than that in the script.

If that's the case, that would be fantastic, but are you *sure* it works
like that? Skip Montanaro made it clear that removing posts from the
archives regenerates URLs for the whole month:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/python/python/1176035



-- 
Steven

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Re: Defamation

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 03:28 am, Laura Creighton wrote:

> Actually, this one was part of a huge set of defaming articles sent a
> year ago we were requested to remove, and did.  European Law may
> require us to do so.  I checked, and this article wasn't one on
> our list, which is why we missed this one.

I don't believe that the Python mailing list archives are hosted in a
country under the jurisdiction of European Law. If I'm right, then removing
posts sets a dangerous precedent of obeying laws in foreign countries that
don't apply.

Today we're removing allegedly defaming posts because European law may or
may not apply (probably doesn't); tomorrow we're removing posts because
they fall foul of unreasonable laws anywhere in the world.

E.g. suppose I say that the Thai king can't program for crap. If I were
under the jurisdiction of Thai law, I might be in trouble for offending the
dignity of the king.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lèse-majesté

Fortunately I'm not, but if I were, I would hope that my post(s) would not
be deleted just because some touchy royal got his nose out of joint.

Or if I happen to mention some (hypothetical) data-mining program I've
written which demonstrates that the judeo-christian god is clearly derived
from earlier polytheistic Hebrew traditions, I might be in trouble for
blasphemy in various countries. And let's not even touch on anything to do
with sharia law...

The point is, obeying laws that don't apply, even if well-meaning, opens us
to a dangerous precedent that we shouldn't go near.

There's another reason to try very, very hard to avoid deleting archived
posts: until such time as python.org moves to Mailman3, deleting a single
posts breaks the permalinks for *every single post* for the entire month.



-- 
Steven

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Re: Defamation

[Ralf Hildebrandt]

* Steven D'Aprano :
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 03:28 am, Laura Creighton wrote:
> 
> > Actually, this one was part of a huge set of defaming articles sent a
> > year ago we were requested to remove, and did.  European Law may
> > require us to do so.  I checked, and this article wasn't one on
> > our list, which is why we missed this one.
> 
> I don't believe that the Python mailing list archives are hosted in a
> country under the jurisdiction of European Law.

The Netherlands it is.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt   Charite Universitätsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebra...@charite.deCampus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de  Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Geschäftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155
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Re: Defamation

[Chris Angelico]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:31 AM, gaini2002--- via Python-list
 wrote:
> Please remove the page
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2014-September/678498.html

That page is just spam that someone sent to the newsgroup/mailing
list. You can ignore it, same as the rest of us do.

Even if the page were to be removed, the same content has already been
posted to myriad news servers the world over, many of which archive
all posts. There's no way to remove it from everywhere.

ChrisA
-- 
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Re: Defamation

[Ian Kelly]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Michael Torrie  wrote:
> On 10/19/2015 08:14 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:31 AM, gaini2002--- via Python-list
>>  wrote:
>>> Please remove the page
>>
>> That page is just spam that someone sent to the newsgroup/mailing
>> list. You can ignore it, same as the rest of us do.
>>
>> Even if the page were to be removed, the same content has already been
>> posted to myriad news servers the world over, many of which archive
>> all posts. There's no way to remove it from everywhere.
>
> Guess spam filtering is getting good as I don't recall ever seeing the
> original message last year, thank goodness. The message in question is
> not just ordinary spam.  It is very specific spam, focused entirely on
> one person, claiming all kinds of bizarre things, with the intent to
> skew google search results to show this message when people search for
> that name.  Clearly the post is from a mentally ill person as it barely
> makes much sense.
>
> While it's true that this message has now been duplicated across Usenet,
> it certainly can be removed from the pipermail archives.  The OP can
> email python-list-ow...@python.org and request it.  It may not happen
> but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Which is the same thing the OP was told the last time he posted a
removal request publicly to this list. I do note that the subject of
the previous request appears to have since been removed.

I've taken the liberty of forwarding this request on to
python-list-owner, on the theory that this will be more useful than
discussion about it here.
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Re: Defamation

[Michael Torrie]

On 10/19/2015 08:14 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:31 AM, gaini2002--- via Python-list
>  wrote:
>> Please remove the page
>
> That page is just spam that someone sent to the newsgroup/mailing
> list. You can ignore it, same as the rest of us do.
> 
> Even if the page were to be removed, the same content has already been
> posted to myriad news servers the world over, many of which archive
> all posts. There's no way to remove it from everywhere.

Guess spam filtering is getting good as I don't recall ever seeing the
original message last year, thank goodness. The message in question is
not just ordinary spam.  It is very specific spam, focused entirely on
one person, claiming all kinds of bizarre things, with the intent to
skew google search results to show this message when people search for
that name.  Clearly the post is from a mentally ill person as it barely
makes much sense.

While it's true that this message has now been duplicated across Usenet,
it certainly can be removed from the pipermail archives.  The OP can
email python-list-ow...@python.org and request it.  It may not happen
but it doesn't hurt to ask.
-- 
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Re: Defamation

[Ralf Hildebrandt]

* Ian Kelly :

> Which is the same thing the OP was told the last time he posted a
> removal request publicly to this list. I do note that the subject of
> the previous request appears to have since been removed.
> 
> I've taken the liberty of forwarding this request on to
> python-list-owner, on the theory that this will be more useful than
> discussion about it here.
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

The right place is postmas...@python.org, since the owner cannot clean
the archives.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt   Charite Universitätsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebra...@charite.deCampus Benjamin Franklin
http://www.charite.de  Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Geschäftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155
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Re: Defamation

[Laura Creighton]

In a message of Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:14:14 +1100, Chris Angelico writes:
>On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:31 AM, gaini2002--- via Python-list
> wrote:
>> Please remove the page
>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2014-September/678498.html
>
>That page is just spam that someone sent to the newsgroup/mailing
>list. You can ignore it, same as the rest of us do.
>
>Even if the page were to be removed, the same content has already been
>posted to myriad news servers the world over, many of which archive
>all posts. There's no way to remove it from everywhere.
>
>ChrisA

Actually, this one was part of a huge set of defaming articles sent a
year ago we were requested to remove, and did.  European Law may
require us to do so.  I checked, and this article wasn't one on
our list, which is why we missed this one.

Laura
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Re: Defamation

[Laura Creighton]

In a message of Mon, 19 Oct 2015 08:36:37 -0600, Michael Torrie writes:
>On 10/19/2015 08:14 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:31 AM, gaini2002--- via Python-list
>>  wrote:
>>> Please remove the page
>>
>> That page is just spam that someone sent to the newsgroup/mailing
>> list. You can ignore it, same as the rest of us do.
>> 
>> Even if the page were to be removed, the same content has already been
>> posted to myriad news servers the world over, many of which archive
>> all posts. There's no way to remove it from everywhere.
>
>Guess spam filtering is getting good as I don't recall ever seeing the
>original message last year, thank goodness. The message in question is
>not just ordinary spam.  It is very specific spam, focused entirely on
>one person, claiming all kinds of bizarre things, with the intent to
>skew google search results to show this message when people search for
>that name.  Clearly the post is from a mentally ill person as it barely
>makes much sense.
>
>While it's true that this message has now been duplicated across Usenet,
>it certainly can be removed from the pipermail archives.  The OP can
>email python-list-ow...@python.org and request it.  It may not happen
>but it doesn't hurt to ask.

I've already asked postmaster, which is the place where such things get
done.  There was something close to 100 of these things originally.

Laura
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Re: Defamation

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 3:28 AM, Laura Creighton  wrote:
>>Even if the page were to be removed, the same content has already been
>>posted to myriad news servers the world over, many of which archive
>>all posts. There's no way to remove it from everywhere.
>>
>>ChrisA
>
> Actually, this one was part of a huge set of defaming articles sent a
> year ago we were requested to remove, and did.  European Law may
> require us to do so.  I checked, and this article wasn't one on
> our list, which is why we missed this one.

It's still impossible to remove it from _everywhere_. Whether that
makes it pointless to remove it from the python-list archive is a
matter for debate, and as several have pointed out, such removal can
be done; but there will be other archives elsewhere, so the content is
still out there and visible.

ChrisA
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Re: Defamation

[Tim Golden]

On 19/10/2015 17:29, Laura Creighton wrote:

In a message of Mon, 19 Oct 2015 08:36:37 -0600, Michael Torrie writes:

On 10/19/2015 08:14 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:31 AM, gaini2002--- via Python-list
 wrote:

Please remove the page


That page is just spam that someone sent to the newsgroup/mailing
list. You can ignore it, same as the rest of us do.

Even if the page were to be removed, the same content has already been
posted to myriad news servers the world over, many of which archive
all posts. There's no way to remove it from everywhere.


Guess spam filtering is getting good as I don't recall ever seeing the
original message last year, thank goodness. The message in question is
not just ordinary spam.  It is very specific spam, focused entirely on
one person, claiming all kinds of bizarre things, with the intent to
skew google search results to show this message when people search for
that name.  Clearly the post is from a mentally ill person as it barely
makes much sense.

While it's true that this message has now been duplicated across Usenet,
it certainly can be removed from the pipermail archives.  The OP can
email python-list-ow...@python.org and request it.  It may not happen
but it doesn't hurt to ask.


I've already asked postmaster, which is the place where such things get
done.  There was something close to 100 of these things originally.


... and I've been kicking them out of moderation at the rate of about 2 
a week ever since, I think. (At least: that's what it feels like).


TJG
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Re: Defamation

[Ben Finney]

silvagni gabriele.silv...@tiscali.it writes:

 Please remove the page:
 https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2014-September/691616.html

 Thank You
 Gabriele Silvagni

You have given no motivation for us to do so. A bald request to remove a
message is unlikely to be actioned.

Also, you are addressing the wrong people; we are participants, not
administrators, of this forum.

If you want to make a complaint to the administrators of this forum,
please read URL:https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list,
the end of the page shows how to contact the administrators.

-- 
 \   “… whoever claims any right that he is unwilling to accord to |
  `\ his fellow-men is dishonest and infamous.” —Robert G. |
_o__)   Ingersoll, _The Liberty of Man, Woman and Child_, 1877 |
Ben Finney

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Re: Defamation

[Terry Reedy]

On 4/3/2015 12:37 PM, silvagni wrote:

Please remove the page:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2014-September/691616.html

Thank You
Gabriele Silvagni


You can try sending mail to python-list-ow...@python.org, but it will 
not do much good.  Even if a post could be removed from python.org, 
which I do not believe will be done, the list is mirrored at 
news.gmane.org, google groups, comp.lang.python (multiple news servers 
worldwide), and elsewhere I believe.  It is also indexed by search 
engines.  Sorry.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
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Re: Defamation

[Paul Arrington]

On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 18:37:33 +0200, silvagni wrote:

 Please remove the page:
 https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2014-September/691616.html
 
 Thank You Gabriele Silvagni

This is a primarily a Usenet group, (Google that term), and is hosted 
by a distributed network of servers, and the python.org mail-server is 
merely one mirror of that network. Posts like that one _are_ annoying but 
are impossible to remove from the wider network.

You _could_ try tackling the point-of-injection, which happens to be 
Google-Groups (which is another Usenet mirror), so Google bear prime 
responsibility for neglecting to filter the message.  Good luck with 
that, though, because Google are very difficult to even contact.

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Re: Defamation

[Mark Lawrence]

On 03/04/2015 17:37, silvagni wrote:

Please remove the page:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2014-September/691616.html

Thank You
Gabriele Silvagni



I mark all of these as offensive on google groups.

--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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