Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roy Smith wrote: Likewise for the source control (CVS, SVN, P4, etc) integrations [in emacs]. Discovered that by accident today. Had a conflicted update in Subversion, fixed it up, saved the file, switched to a terminal window, typed svn status, and lo and behold, the conflict had vanished (along with the .mine and .rnn files). I assume it was Emacs doing that, and not a side-effect of the svn status command. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Clay Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The first real text editor I used was Vim, which I actually started using about a year ago. I've looked at Emacs and it just looks confusing. I've been using emacs for so many years (um let's see, it's got to be close to 25 years now; first saw it on Columbia's TOPS-20 systems in the early 80's) that my fingers know what they're doing without my even thinking about it. In fact, I used to work with another emacs nut. Every so often, one of use would watch the other do something and ask, What was that?. Inevitably, neither of us could evoke the keystrokes we had just typed. We would just re-do it, and watch our fingers to see what we typed. It didn't even have to be on a keyboard; we could air-type it, and that was good enough. In any case, the basic logic behind emacs is pretty simple. C-F is forward one character. C-B is back one character. C-N is Next line. C-P is Previous line. It's worth pointing out to people making loony signs here that the arrow keys work too -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Clay Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The first real text editor I used was Vim, which I actually started using about a year ago. I've looked at Emacs and it just looks confusing. I've been using emacs for so many years (um let's see, it's got to be close to 25 years now; first saw it on Columbia's TOPS-20 systems in the early 80's) that my fingers know what they're doing without my even thinking about it. In fact, I used to work with another emacs nut. Every so often, one of use would watch the other do something and ask, What was that?. Inevitably, neither of us could evoke the keystrokes we had just typed. We would just re-do it, and watch our fingers to see what we typed. It didn't even have to be on a keyboard; we could air-type it, and that was good enough. I also started using Emacs about 25 years ago, but then when I moved to using DOS machines which at the time weren't capable of running Emacs I suffered withdrawal symptoms until I found Epsilon (http://lugaru.com) which started life as an Emacs style editor on DOS. I still use Epsilon today, even when I'm using Linux: it isn't free software in any sense of the word, but I find that a lot of the things I use it for it actually does better than Emacs. If you are willing to consider paying for an editor then download the evaluation copy of Epsilon and give it a go. -- Duncan Booth http://kupuguy.blogspot.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? IMHO I'd want these features * Keyboard macros * Regular expression search and replace * Integration with version control * Infinite undo * Syntax colouring (not essential) * Bracket matching (useful but not essential) * Integration with compiler with error throwback (essential for C code work) * Automatic indenting (a great time saver) I know that emacs (my choice) and vim have all these features, don't know about Eclipse. In fact if I had to pick one feature that a programmer's editor must have it would be keyboard macros. -- Nick Craig-Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.craig-wood.com/nick -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Riley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Clay Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The first real text editor I used was Vim, which I actually started using about a year ago. I've looked at Emacs and it just looks confusing. I've been using emacs for so many years (um let's see, it's got to be close to 25 years now; first saw it on Columbia's TOPS-20 systems in the early 80's) that my fingers know what they're doing without my even thinking about it. In fact, I used to work with another emacs nut. Every so often, one of use would watch the other do something and ask, What was that?. Inevitably, neither of us could evoke the keystrokes we had just typed. We would just re-do it, and watch our fingers to see what we typed. It didn't even have to be on a keyboard; we could air-type it, and that was good enough. In any case, the basic logic behind emacs is pretty simple. C-F is forward one character. C-B is back one character. C-N is Next line. C-P is Previous line. It's worth pointing out to people making loony signs here that the arrow keys work too Yeah, I guess. I use the arrows keys to mindlessly scroll around in a file, especially when I just want to show some code to somebody. It serves two purposes. First, I can lean way back from the keyboard and reach out with one hand (giving the other person better visibility). Second, it makes it easier for a non-emacs person to jump in and drive for a while (they saw me use the arrow keys and do the same, no explanations needed). For any serious editing, however, it's strictly the keys on the main part of the keyboard. It's just so much faster when your hands never have to leave their home position. To use the arrow keys, I need to pick my hand up and move it over to the arrow key cluster. Slow, slow, slow. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nick Craig-Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Syntax colouring (not essential) I never used to use syntax coloring, until somebody turned me on to it a couple of years ago. I was griping on a company mailing list that some previous code monkey had commented out a big swath (more than a screenfull) of C++ code by sticking a /* at the beginning and a */ at the end. I had just wasted a bunch of time trying to debug a problem, not noticing that the code I was looking at was commented out. Somebody pointed out that if I turned on syntax coloring, it would be obvious. I've been hooked ever since. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Riley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Clay Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The first real text editor I used was Vim, which I actually started using about a year ago. I've looked at Emacs and it just looks confusing. I've been using emacs for so many years (um let's see, it's got to be close to 25 years now; first saw it on Columbia's TOPS-20 systems in the early 80's) that my fingers know what they're doing without my even thinking about it. In fact, I used to work with another emacs nut. Every so often, one of use would watch the other do something and ask, What was that?. Inevitably, neither of us could evoke the keystrokes we had just typed. We would just re-do it, and watch our fingers to see what we typed. It didn't even have to be on a keyboard; we could air-type it, and that was good enough. In any case, the basic logic behind emacs is pretty simple. C-F is forward one character. C-B is back one character. C-N is Next line. C-P is Previous line. It's worth pointing out to people making loony signs here that the arrow keys work too Yeah, I guess. I use the arrows keys to mindlessly scroll around in a file, especially when I just want to show some code to somebody. It serves two purposes. First, I can lean way back from the keyboard and reach out with one hand (giving the other person better visibility). Second, it makes it easier for a non-emacs person to jump in and drive for a while (they saw me use the arrow keys and do the same, no explanations needed). For any serious editing, however, it's strictly the keys on the main part of the keyboard. It's just so much faster when your hands never have to leave their home position. To use the arrow keys, I need to pick my hand up and move it over to the arrow key cluster. Slow, slow, slow. Have to disagree. I could never use C-f etc. If I want to navigate the cursor its generally to browse and the 10th of a second it takes to rest hand on the cursor pad is immaterial in the time compared to sit back and read the code. I find the reference to using control keys to naviaget code character and line at time leads to more people abandoning emacs than you would believe. All it needs is a cursor keys or, for hardcore types, the following key sequences. Still. all to their own. -- important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On 29 Nov., 21:44, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I know this topic has been smashed around a bit already, but 'learning curve' always seems to be an arguement. If you feel that one is easier or harder than the others to learn feel free to tell, but let's not make that the deciding factor. Which one will be most empowering down the road as a development tool? Thanks in advance, JR Many have written that they have no experience with using Eclipse. Well, I have a little, and I just want to add my experience. I am a novice Python programmer and I use Eclipse with the PyDev and SubClipse extensions which gives me a Python environment and integration with Subversion, which is the version control system I use. My OS is Windows XP and Server 2003. Other people are working on the same project using either eclipse on a linux box or another editor of choice. Eclipse works very well for me. The facilities I like are: * A handy object browser which lets be jump into the part of the code I am interested in (I work with several, quite large modules). * Autocompletion: When I write . it gives me a suggestion of the methods/attributes available and the doc string (if available) is shown as a tool tip. It can autogenerate a generic signature for a method call with the attribute names prefilled. Very handy as I quite often forget the order of arguments. * Unit tests: It is quite convenient to write and run unit tests in the environment (unittest run targets) * Refactoring: Intelligent rename for instance is handy for renaming methods and attributes across modules * Debugger: I debugger environment which works well for me with watchlists, step-into, step over. * Chroma-coded * Auto-indentation * Macros for block commenting, indenting and unindenting. * Nice integrated diff toll which integrates well with subversion. * And tons of other things which I have not explored yet. Like a coverage run target for instance. * Some Syntax checking I am personally satisfied with the startup time and overall responsiveness of Eclipse, but users of Emacs/Vim may have other bars for responsiveness than me. Sometimes I experience some problems with cascading inexplicable errors ocurring in the IDE when running unit test suites. This is annoying and they do not occur when I run the tests stand- alone outside on the command line. This IDE works well for me. I do not have an opinion about how it works in comparison with Emacs and Vim, just wanted to give my opinion on Eclipse and Python as this had not been discussed so much. On the prestige level it is certainly not considered as cool to use Eclipse as Emacs/Vim where I am working. I often hear the opinion that you are not a proper coder/hacker is you do not master any of these classic editors. I also think it depends much upon your coding style. Personally I spend much more time thinking on how to implement this-and-that, than actually coding. That may reflect that I am still a novice Python Programmer. -- Slaunger -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
What I have done is skipped the whole Vim/Emacs obscure editor thing and opted for PyScripter (see http://mmm-experts.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=4 ). It might not be as complete/complex as these other editors but it is easy to use and just lets me get on with the task of cutting code. As a fall-back I also use EditPlus (see http://www.editplus.com/index.html ). Its only for Windows and its shareware so you need to pay for it. Its clip library makes it a VERY GOOD text editor. It's a real shame there are NO text editors with such a comprehensive and easy to modify clip library function (I would be really pleased to be proven wrong on this last point :-) ). However, the best advice I think that can be given about editors is keep trying them until you find the one YOU like. We all like different things, especially when it comes to editors. Regards, Peter -- *Peter Anderson* There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things—Niccolo Machiavelli, /The Prince/, ch. 6 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Peter Anderson wrote: What I have done is skipped the whole Vim/Emacs obscure editor thing and opted for PyScripter (see http://mmm-experts.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=4 ). It might not be as complete/complex as these other editors but it is easy to use and just lets me get on with the task of cutting code. if it works it's a fair good editor, but if it doesn't (I have to restart the editor about each hour) ... As a fall-back I also use EditPlus (see http://www.editplus.com/index.html ). Its only for Windows but PyScripter is also only for windows ;-) and its shareware so you need to pay for it. Its clip library makes it a VERY GOOD text editor. It's a real shame there are NO text editors with such a comprehensive and easy to modify clip library function (I would be really pleased to be proven wrong on this last point :-) ). What so great about it ? I use a template manager, written in pure python, works under any OS (where Python is installed) and can be used with any text editor and is open source and completely free. I think it has at least the same capabilities as the Komodo clip library. Somewhere in the middle of the following page are a few notes: http://mientki.ruhosting.nl/data_www/pylab_works/pw_code_editor.html and you can find the sources here: http://code.google.com/p/pylab-works/downloads/list However, the best advice I think that can be given about editors is keep trying them until you find the one YOU like. We all like different things, especially when it comes to editors. +1 cheers, Stef -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Peter Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What I have done is skipped the whole Vim/Emacs obscure editor thing and opted for PyScripter PyScripter is not obscure, compared to Emacs and Vim? I think I need a new ironometer. -- \ “I went to a garage sale. ‘How much for the garage?’ ‘It's not | `\for sale.’” —Steven Wright | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
I would never tell someone what editor to use in the same way I wouldn't tell someone what religion to believe in. Which is to say, I would tell my kids or other trusting soul... I used emacs for years, I was eventually convinced to start using nedit, which is quite nice. For an IDE, which I need for GUI debugging more than all the other sometimes-nice bells and whistles, I use WingIDE and have found it pretty cool but not free. In terms of using it, it's much like any IDE these days and I think learning one is a good platform for learning how IDEs tend to work in general, at least until something genuinely different comes along in that space. I would say a beginner willing to face a learning curve should make sure they know how to edit their project outside of the IDE, understand something about how the IDE makes their project, and so on. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Nov 29, 3:44 pm, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I know this topic has been smashed around a bit already, but 'learning curve' always seems to be an arguement. If you feel that one is easier or harder than the others to learn feel free to tell, but let's not make that the deciding factor. Which one will be most empowering down the road as a development tool? I'd strongly recommend not using an IDE but going with federated tools; this makes it easier to pick the editor, code navigation tool, build system, etc that you like best, and makes it easier to swap out one piece at a time if you don't like it. So of the choices mentioned, I'd go with emacs or vim if I were you. Personally I also find high value in picking an editor that can be run on a command-line terminal connection (e.g. when you're ssh'd into a remote server), but that may be less important depending on what sort of development you are doing. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:57:17 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 29, 3:44 pm, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I know this topic has been smashed around a bit already, but 'learning curve' always seems to be an arguement. If you feel that one is easier or harder than the others to learn feel free to tell, but let's not make that the deciding factor. Which one will be most empowering down the road as a development tool? I'd strongly recommend not using an IDE but going with federated tools; this makes it easier to pick the editor, code navigation tool, build system, etc that you like best, and makes it easier to swap out one piece at a time if you don't like it. So of the choices mentioned, I'd go with emacs or vim if I were you. I'd say this has another advantage, that someone already mentioned - better learning the process that goes behind the gui of an ide. After all, an ide is just a frontend to something ... Personally I also find high value in picking an editor that can be run on a command-line terminal connection (e.g. when you're ssh'd into a remote server), but that may be less important depending on what sort of development you are doing. True, the value of this could vary from critical to not important at all. -- Mario -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Stef asked: / // As a fall-back I also use EditPlus (see // http://www.editplus.com/index.html ). Its only for Windows /but PyScripter is also only for windows ;-) / and its shareware so you need to pay for it. Its clip library makes it // a VERY GOOD text editor. It's a real shame there are NO text editors // with such a comprehensive and easy to modify clip library function (I // would be really pleased to be proven wrong on this last point :-) ). /What so great about it ? I think you would really need to try it. As I said yesterday, I find the clip library really very useful; its simple to use and easy to create/extend. Here is a short piece of clip library from a HTML clip lib: #T=Bold b^!/b #T=Italic i^!/i #T=Underline text span class=underline^!/span #T=Superscript (end note) sup^!/sup #T=Code fragment code^!/code #T=Highligt text - yellow span class=highlight^!/span #T=Centre text div align=center ^! /div Only the text on the line after the T# appears in the clip lib side panel. Double click on the text label and EditPlus inserts the clip text into the document being edited. The ^! is where the cursor sits after the clip insertion. Clips can be inserted around existing text. Very neat; if you use Windows its really worth a try. Regards, Peter -- *Peter Anderson* There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things—Niccolo Machiavelli, /The Prince/, ch. 6 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:44:14 -0800, Josh wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? Honestly, I would invest my time and energy in someting more significant than editor skills. In twenty+ years of programming I have used all three environments and many others, and I never found them critically important for my job. Sure a good editor and/or IDE can make your life easier. And a bad one can make you suffer - but then you just switch ... But at the end of the day they are just tools, and IMO not the most important ones in the toolchain that you have to use to do your job. Ciao --- FB -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Nov 29, 8:44 pm, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? Personally I'd choose Vim for the following reasons: 1) Vim is ubiquitous on Linux/Unix servers. If you learn Vim you will be able to edit files on a server without doing the FTP to local machine/edit locally/upload back by ftp dance I see so many developers and even sys admins doing... 2) Vim is a proper editor. Eclipse is an IDE. They are really incomparable. I personally hate working in Eclipse, but the IDE features make it the obvious choice for Java development. I prefer Vim for Python development. I also have Vim set up as an external editor in Eclipse, so any repetitive or difficult editing in Eclipse is done in Vim. 3) Vim makes it simple to cut log files down to size. The g command is a godsend for this. :g/DEBUG/d will for example remove all debug lines from the file. :g!/My message/d will delete all lines other than lines containing My message, and :g/./norm dt- will delete everything up until the first '-' (normal mode, delete 'till '-'). Combine these and you'll have the info you want, formatted in the way you want it very quickly. 4) Vim can be scripted in Python, and has a host of useful plugins. 5) Vim has close interaction with the command line (though no built-in console like emacs). Finished editing a file? type :!svn commit -m Done fixing this % and the current file (%) is committed into subversion. :%!sort will filter the current buffer through an external sort program, and change the buffer to the result. Now emacs will also satisfy points 2-5 (not sure how easy 3 is, but I'm certain it's comparable). In fact emacs will initially have a lower learning curve, since it its not modal, and so wihout learning any keystrokes, you can use it just like a basic editor and gradually learn the commands. (1) for me is a compelling reason to use vim all other things being equal. Also, if you touch type, or aspire to, then Vim makes more sense than emacs, since almost everything can be done from the main keys, rather than emacs CTL-ALT-SHIFT x u type key contortions... Certainly don't bother with Eclipse unless your starting as a Java programmer (and even then learn vim as well) - it is very good at inserting boilerplate code for you, but as an editor offers little more than Windows Notepad... I personally use Gvim for a great deal of my work, from those taskd -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
There is, as other people have pointed out, no correct answer to this question, other that use a few different editors, and settle on what you like. I personally use emacs. In fact, I use emacs for a lot more than just editing code. The reason I found myself really liking emacs was because I'm the type of person who likes to be able to really customize whatever I'm using to my tastes - emacs is _meant_ to be customized, and although the learning curve is steep (especially if you have no previous exposure to lisps), it is possible to be tearing emacs apart to fit your tastes within a few weeks to a month of using it. If you're the same type of person, you'll probably enjoy emacs. I do advocate learning a powerful text editor, because the reward for spending a lot of time learning one is very great. The only editors I'm aware of that stand out from the crowd as being more powerful than the mass of other editors are emacs and vim - but then again, I don't have much experience with newer editors (for instance, Eclipse is a lot more extensible than I previously thought that it was). A word of warning is in order though - if you _do_ decide to spend the time learning a powerful text editor off the bat in your journey as a programmer, prepare to be _extremely_ frustrated for a while. It may be more prudent to stick with editors that have an interface that you're used to (but support syntax highlighting, auto-indentation, etc) than to jump into the unknown. A little bit of programming experience can make understanding editors like vim and emacs a lot easier than otherwise. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Sat, 2008-11-29 at 12:44 -0800, Josh wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I know this topic has been smashed around a bit already, but 'learning curve' always seems to be an arguement. If you feel that one is easier or harder than the others to learn feel free to tell, but let's not make that the deciding factor. Which one will be most empowering down the road as a development tool? Thanks in advance, JR The first real text editor I used was Vim, which I actually started using about a year ago. I've looked at Emacs and it just looks confusing. It has key commands with key modifiers to do simple tasks (such as moving the cursor to the left). I used Eclipse for a while, but for programming in Python it really has no advantage over Vim, so back I went. Vim doesn't really have a steep learning curve, of course I used vimtutor to help me learn it. Anyway, play around with all three, and see which you like best. --Ratfink -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Clay Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The first real text editor I used was Vim, which I actually started using about a year ago. I've looked at Emacs and it just looks confusing. I've been using emacs for so many years (um let's see, it's got to be close to 25 years now; first saw it on Columbia's TOPS-20 systems in the early 80's) that my fingers know what they're doing without my even thinking about it. In fact, I used to work with another emacs nut. Every so often, one of use would watch the other do something and ask, What was that?. Inevitably, neither of us could evoke the keystrokes we had just typed. We would just re-do it, and watch our fingers to see what we typed. It didn't even have to be on a keyboard; we could air-type it, and that was good enough. In any case, the basic logic behind emacs is pretty simple. C-F is forward one character. C-B is back one character. C-N is Next line. C-P is Previous line. The original concept was that changing the control modifier to meta, or shift-meta, or control-x, etc, would do the same basic thing but to increasingly larger units of text (forward one word, forward one sentence, forward one paragraph, and do on). So, you had a bunch of basic operations (cursor movements, deleting, transposing, and so on), and a bunch of orthogonal prefixes to change the scope of what they were operating one. But, the massive, fundamental, difference between emacs and the whole vi family, is that emacs is mode-less. In vi and its descendants, you hop back and forth between command mode and insert mode. That drives me nuts. With emacs, what's on the screen is what's in the file. The other big thing that made emacs superior to vi was the scriptability, and all the add-on packages that gave rise to. I just can't imagine working on C/C++ code without M-X Compile. Likewise for the source control (CVS, SVN, P4, etc) integrations. As time has gone by, however, the choice of lisp as the scripting language has really shown its age. Not many people know lisp these days. I used to be OK with lisp, but these days I remember just enough to do some minor hacking on my .emacs file. I'd have to say that, today, lisp as the scripting language has become a significant barrier to entry for new emacs users. I can see why vim has become popular. (even if it is still saddled by the modal editing model). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Clay Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It has key commands with key modifiers to do simple tasks (such as moving the cursor to the left). Err - you move the cursor to the left by pressing the left arrow key (as you do with virtually every other editor), unless you've made some strange key bind customisations. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks in advance, There is no right, or wrong, answer to this question. Try one for a few weeks, force yourself to use it as exclusively as possible for all your text editing needs. After that, repeat that process with the other editor. You will have just scratched the surface with both editors, but you should be able to make a decision as to which editor is better for you. Don't forget, you can change your mind down the road. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:44:14 -0800, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I know this topic has been smashed around a bit already, but 'learning curve' always seems to be an arguement. If you feel that one is easier or harder than the others to learn feel free to tell, but let's not make that the deciding factor. Which one will be most empowering down the road as a development tool? Thanks in advance, JR First, you must understand that this is an extremelly dangerous question to ask on a public newsgroup (expecially regarding the first and the third in the series). Wars have began over this. Many people were harmed in those wars. Many a land have been conquered and many a land lost. Many cows were killed. Many chickens were eaten in those wars. So, in regards for the chickens, decide carefully whether you want to continue on this journey. Well, that aside, it's a perfectly reasonable question. Myself, I never used eclipse so I can't give any opinion on it, but I have used vim and 'macs extensivly. In the end, I somehow settled onto vim, not because I think it's better, or ... anything else, but because at some time a coleague of mine gave me a few scripts of his which I found extremely useful in my day to day work, and ... Both are usually noted as leaving a steep learning curve - my advice would be to take this with some reserve. Yes, both have different interfaces from pretty much everything on today's windows's common user interface or linux's, but apart from that, it's pretty much the same as always; you've got save, open, you write in files, ... maybe vim's several modes can confuse you at first, but you'll see its not a big deal after all. Somebody suggested when you try learning either of those you stay in them as much as possible - I would reconsider that. Been using vim for 15 years now, but I still go back to other editors when situation demands. For quick and dirty edit notepad2 will serve fine, or kedit on L. By forcing on working in one of these all the time, not having yourself accustomed to them, you will find yourself in a need to do something, and not knowing how, in the end you will give up on them. Stay with your current preference for as long as you like, while you slowly discover ways to do those things in these as well. As time passes - maybe, maybe not - you'll discover it's much easier to do it in these. And last advice, ... I started using vim a long time ago, not because it was this or that, but because there wasn't much of a choise. Remember quite clearly using EDT for DOS for some time but it had its drawbacks. In nowadays you've got plenty of choices, notepad++, notepad2, programmers notepad, thisEdit, thatEdit ... all sorts of edits. If you don't (after some time) find yourself liking it, well, don't use it. You won't be much productive (the hip word in these discussions) by using something you find alien. Stay with your favourite. I sometimes think half the people use these because the other half talked them into it, and gave them the impression that it was cool while they were perfectly happy with their current choise (under windows for example, programmers notepad is a very nice editor, imho). Just my 2 cents. -- Mario -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Mario Testinori wrote: On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:44:14 -0800, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I know this topic has been smashed around a bit already, but 'learning curve' always seems to be an arguement. If you feel that one is easier or harder than the others to learn feel free to tell, but let's not make that the deciding factor. Which one will be most empowering down the road as a development tool? Thanks in advance, JR First, you must understand that this is an extremelly dangerous question to ask on a public newsgroup (expecially regarding the first and the third in the series). Wars have began over this. Many people were harmed in those wars. Many a land have been conquered and many a land lost. Many cows were killed. Many chickens were eaten in those wars. Don't we have something like a poll to solve this peacefully ? cheers, Stef -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 02:18 +0100, Stef Mientki wrote: First, you must understand that this is an extremelly dangerous question to ask on a public newsgroup (expecially regarding the first and the third in the series). Wars have began over this. Many people were harmed in those wars. Many a land have been conquered and many a land lost. Many cows were killed. Many chickens were eaten in those wars. Don't we have something like a poll to solve this peacefully ? cheers, Stef Polls are just popularity/fan contests. Even Ricky Martin could win one of those. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:27:54 -0500, Albert Hopkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 02:18 +0100, Stef Mientki wrote: First, you must understand that this is an extremelly dangerous question to ask on a public newsgroup (expecially regarding the first and the third in the series). Wars have began over this. Many people were harmed in those wars. Many a land have been conquered and many a land lost. Many cows were killed. Many chickens were eaten in those wars. Don't we have something like a poll to solve this peacefully ? cheers, Stef Polls are just popularity/fan contests. Even Ricky Martin could win one of those. LOL -- Mario -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Stef Mientki [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mario Testinori wrote: First, you must understand that this is an extremelly dangerous question to ask on a public newsgroup (expecially regarding the first and the third in the series). Wars have began over this. Many people were harmed in those wars. Many a land have been conquered and many a land lost. Many cows were killed. Many chickens were eaten in those wars. Don't we have something like a poll to solve this peacefully ? Speaking for myself, that certainly wouldn't stop the chickens from being eaten. -- \ “People always ask me, ‘Where were you when Kennedy was shot?’ | `\Well, I don't have an alibi.” —Emo Philips | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I'd actually recommend starting with IDLE. It's pretty python-centric, and should give you a good idea if you want an IDE or an editor. If the former, you'll probably be pretty happy with Eclipse. If the latter, decide which irritates you less: two purposes for every key or we heard you liked operating systems, so we put an operating system on your operating system so you can program while you program. When it comes to editors, I like nano. Tiny, fast, good at one thing, and I already know all the keys. :) J.T. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Nov 29, 12:44 pm, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I know this topic has been smashed around a bit already, but 'learning curve' always seems to be an arguement. If you feel that one is easier or harder than the others to learn feel free to tell, but let's not make that the deciding factor. Which one will be most empowering down the road as a development tool? Thanks in advance, JR I have experience with Vim and Emacs, none with Eclipse. I used Emacs exclusively until summer 2007 at which point I switched to Vim and never looked back. To be perfectly honest, the switch was precipitated by peer pressure, basically one of my friends said, Emacs, you mean people still use that? I thought everyone switched to Vi, or rather Vim, a long time ago. Nevertheless, I am happy that I made the change. At any rate, if you are willing to learn Lisp and pour over the Emacs manuals from time to time, then Emacs may be for you. If you like programming in Lisp then you may find it appealing and fun to write Emacs extensions and utilities for your own needs. If the Lisp way rubs your fur in the wrong direction, then Emacs may not be for you. Vim has a different approach. The learning curve is substantial at the beginning (softened by the Vim book), but at the end of the day I am able to move around and manipulate code with less effort, mostly due, I think, to having multiple modes: insert, visual, normal. If you really are learning programming, then pick up a copy of SICP, download Emacs, and veg out for a year and a half ducks for cover. David -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks in advance, There is no right, or wrong, answer to this question. Try one for a few weeks, force yourself to use it as exclusively as possible for all your text editing needs. After that, repeat that process with the other editor. You will have just scratched the surface with both editors, but you should be able to make a decision as to which editor is better for you. Don't forget, you can change your mind down the road. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Emacs vs. Eclipse vs. Vim
Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you were a beginning programmer and willing to make an investment in steep learning curve for best returns down the road, which would you pick? I know this topic has been smashed around a bit already, but 'learning curve' always seems to be an arguement. If you feel that one is easier or harder than the others to learn feel free to tell, but let's not make that the deciding factor. Which one will be most empowering down the road as a development tool? Vim and Emacs are both general purpose text editors, whereas Eclipse is an IDE. One thing that's good about Vim and Emacs is that most of the skills you acquire while using it to write programs you will be able to use if you want to: * write emails * post on Usenet * write to-do lists * write a letter to your grandma * in the case of Emacs, almost everything else :) I don't know Eclipse at all (I tried installing it a while ago but it was very unresponsive on my machine) so maybe you can do these things in it as well, who knows? It's good to know the basics of Vim as I think it will be installed on most Unices (correct me if I'm wrong, my experience is limited). I think the best is probably to try out a few editors/IDEs and then you'll see how each goes about doing stuff. It'll make you better at knowing what to expect from an editor. -- Arnaud -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
