Re: Technology solutions for Ruby?
vasudevram a écrit : Bruno Desthuilliers wrote: s/some/great/g Both Ruby and Python are known for this. Thanks for the info. This is not exactly a scoop, you know ?-) I'd say that - wrt/ advanced programming tricks - *most* of what you can do with one can be done with the other - but usually in a *very* different way. While Ruby and Python have similar features and may look very similar at first sight, their respective object models are totally different. Can you briefly explain what you mean by their respective object models are totally different? Do you refer to how the object- orientation (classes, objects, etc.) is implemented in the two languages? Obviously, yes. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Technology solutions for Ruby?
Bruno Desthuilliers wrote: s/some/great/g Both Ruby and Python are known for this. Thanks for the info. (I don't know much about metaprogramming etc. in either languages - just started exploring those topics recently.) I'd say that - wrt/ advanced programming tricks - *most* of what you can do with one can be done with the other - but usually in a *very* different way. While Ruby and Python have similar features and may look very similar at first sight, their respective object models are totally different. Can you briefly explain what you mean by their respective object models are totally different? Do you refer to how the object- orientation (classes, objects, etc.) is implemented in the two languages? Thanks Vasudev -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Technology solutions for Ruby?
On 7/16/07, vasudevram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ Though the OP posted his message to comp.lang.ruby, I'm cross- posting it to comp.lang.python, since he mentions Python as a possible alternative he's looking at, and also because I've recommended Python for his stated needs. Also, interested to see what other Pythonistas have to say in response to my reply. - Vasudev] On Jul 16, 2007, at 2:21 AM, Michael Reiland wrote: At the heart of the issue is the fact that I refuse to use Java for this project, I prefer not to use .Net because of the portability issues, and I'd like to get away from C++ for obvious reasons. To me this means Ruby, Python, or, as mentioned above, Perl. If anyone can tell me of a way to meet the above requirements in either Python or Perl, I'm all ears (I just prefer Ruby). Yes, I think it would be really great for the Ruby community and for the growth of the language if wxRuby was more mature as a GUI toolkit. (Not knocking the wxRuby developers at all, its great that they've even done what they have - I know that creating other language (like Ruby) bindings to a C++ lib is a non-trivial task). My suggestion: Python + wxPython + Python DBI + (Py2Exe + InnoSetup) *might* meet all your needs. (As with any decision about what software technologies to use, you'll have to evaluate the suggested options to see if they fit your needs.) Note: I've used and like both Ruby and Python (saying this after using many, though not all, language features and libraries of both languages), and am not trying to discourage you from using Ruby for your needs; its just that, based on your needs as described, it looks to me as if Python meets them better than Ruby at present: 1. GUI - Native Look and Feel. According to wxRuby the bindings aren't mature enough for production use. Does anyone have any experience with this and/or can you offer alternatives that provide a native look and feel (I I don't know enough about wxRuby to comment. wxPython has this (Native Look and Feel), I think (used it some, a while ago), not 100% sure, you can check on the site - http:/ www.wxpython.org - to make sure. The site does say that it is cross-platform: wxPython is a cross-platform toolkit. This means that the same program will run on multiple platforms without modification. Currently supported platforms are 32-bit Microsoft Windows, most Unix or unix- like systems, and Macintosh OS X. but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have native look and feel on all supported platforms. (The two are not the same thing.) That's why you will need to check. wxPython pros: Its fairly easy to learn, at least for simple GUI apps (e.g. a few widgets / controls and a file dialog or two). I was able to build these simple ones - see the code, article and screenshots available here (or from links from here): http://www.packtpub.com/article/Using_xtopdf - in quite a short time, starting from zero knowledge of wxPython (I did know some Python from before), just by looking at the sample apps, and some reading of the docs. See the quotes about wxPython: http://www.wxpython.org/quotes.php 2. Databases - contemplating using ActiveRecord, but I would like to use ODBC to support multiple types of DB's in a uniform way (if you know of alternatives to ODBC or ActiveRecord, please let me know). I think, but again, not sure, that Python DBI + appropriate database drivers, may meet this need. Basically Python DBI is similar to ODBC (roughly), and to Perl DBI + DBD, as I understand. There's also ODBC support in the Win32 extensions package for Python - IIRC, Google for 'win32all' to get it. Its also available as a link from the Python for Win32 MSI installer on python.org. I've used Python ODBC some, it works and is easy to use. See this for a simple example: http://jugad.livejournal.com/2006/07/07/ (See the second post at that page, titled Publishing ODBC database content as PDF . The code shown in the post is not indented as per proper the Python syntax (LiveJournal messed up the indentation), sorry about that, but its trivial to correct if you know Python indenting rules). Also read the Python ODBC docs and examples, of course. 3. Binary - Are there any utilities for compiling Ruby into a binary executable? The issue is twofold, speed, and not handing the customer the source :) For Python, there is py2exe (for Windows only). I used py2exe recently and it works well enough for the simple cases that I tried. (I tried building EXEs for a simple Python hello-world program, and for a simple wxPython GUI app based on my xtopdf toolkit. Both worked ok.) For cross-platform (Windows and Linux, IIRC), there is PyInstaller (Google for it), haven't tried it out yet, just downloaded it recently. I don't think you'll gain much speed by this compiling step, though (over and above what Python gives you itself, when it compiles your .py files
Re: Technology solutions for Ruby?
[ Though the OP posted his message to comp.lang.ruby, I'm cross- posting it to comp.lang.python, since he mentions Python as a possible alternative he's looking at, and also because I've recommended Python for his stated needs. Also, interested to see what other Pythonistas have to say in response to my reply. - Vasudev] On Jul 16, 2007, at 2:21 AM, Michael Reiland wrote: At the heart of the issue is the fact that I refuse to use Java for this project, I prefer not to use .Net because of the portability issues, and I'd like to get away from C++ for obvious reasons. To me this means Ruby, Python, or, as mentioned above, Perl. If anyone can tell me of a way to meet the above requirements in either Python or Perl, I'm all ears (I just prefer Ruby). Yes, I think it would be really great for the Ruby community and for the growth of the language if wxRuby was more mature as a GUI toolkit. (Not knocking the wxRuby developers at all, its great that they've even done what they have - I know that creating other language (like Ruby) bindings to a C++ lib is a non-trivial task). My suggestion: Python + wxPython + Python DBI + (Py2Exe + InnoSetup) *might* meet all your needs. (As with any decision about what software technologies to use, you'll have to evaluate the suggested options to see if they fit your needs.) Note: I've used and like both Ruby and Python (saying this after using many, though not all, language features and libraries of both languages), and am not trying to discourage you from using Ruby for your needs; its just that, based on your needs as described, it looks to me as if Python meets them better than Ruby at present: 1. GUI - Native Look and Feel. According to wxRuby the bindings aren't mature enough for production use. Does anyone have any experience with this and/or can you offer alternatives that provide a native look and feel (I I don't know enough about wxRuby to comment. wxPython has this (Native Look and Feel), I think (used it some, a while ago), not 100% sure, you can check on the site - http:/ www.wxpython.org - to make sure. The site does say that it is cross-platform: wxPython is a cross-platform toolkit. This means that the same program will run on multiple platforms without modification. Currently supported platforms are 32-bit Microsoft Windows, most Unix or unix- like systems, and Macintosh OS X. but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have native look and feel on all supported platforms. (The two are not the same thing.) That's why you will need to check. wxPython pros: Its fairly easy to learn, at least for simple GUI apps (e.g. a few widgets / controls and a file dialog or two). I was able to build these simple ones - see the code, article and screenshots available here (or from links from here): http://www.packtpub.com/article/Using_xtopdf - in quite a short time, starting from zero knowledge of wxPython (I did know some Python from before), just by looking at the sample apps, and some reading of the docs. See the quotes about wxPython: http://www.wxpython.org/quotes.php 2. Databases - contemplating using ActiveRecord, but I would like to use ODBC to support multiple types of DB's in a uniform way (if you know of alternatives to ODBC or ActiveRecord, please let me know). I think, but again, not sure, that Python DBI + appropriate database drivers, may meet this need. Basically Python DBI is similar to ODBC (roughly), and to Perl DBI + DBD, as I understand. There's also ODBC support in the Win32 extensions package for Python - IIRC, Google for 'win32all' to get it. Its also available as a link from the Python for Win32 MSI installer on python.org. I've used Python ODBC some, it works and is easy to use. See this for a simple example: http://jugad.livejournal.com/2006/07/07/ (See the second post at that page, titled Publishing ODBC database content as PDF . The code shown in the post is not indented as per proper the Python syntax (LiveJournal messed up the indentation), sorry about that, but its trivial to correct if you know Python indenting rules). Also read the Python ODBC docs and examples, of course. 3. Binary - Are there any utilities for compiling Ruby into a binary executable? The issue is twofold, speed, and not handing the customer the source :) For Python, there is py2exe (for Windows only). I used py2exe recently and it works well enough for the simple cases that I tried. (I tried building EXEs for a simple Python hello-world program, and for a simple wxPython GUI app based on my xtopdf toolkit. Both worked ok.) For cross-platform (Windows and Linux, IIRC), there is PyInstaller (Google for it), haven't tried it out yet, just downloaded it recently. I don't think you'll gain much speed by this compiling step, though (over and above what Python gives you itself, when it compiles your .py files to .pyc files). The purpose of py2exe is more to hide the source code than to speed it up, as I understand (could be wrong). Note:
Re: Technology solutions for Ruby?
On Jul 16, 10:25 pm, vasudevram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ Though the OP posted his message to comp.lang.ruby, I'm cross- posting it to comp.lang.python, since he mentions Python as a possible alternative he's looking at, and also because I've recommended Python for his stated needs. Also, interested to see what other Pythonistas have to say in response to my reply. - Vasudev] On Jul 16, 2007, at 2:21 AM, Michael Reiland wrote: At the heart of the issue is the fact that I refuse to use Java for this project, I prefer not to use .Net because of the portability issues, and I'd like to get away from C++ for obvious reasons. To me this means Ruby, Python, or, as mentioned above, Perl. If anyone can tell me of a way to meet the above requirements in either Python or Perl, I'm all ears (I just prefer Ruby). Yes, I think it would be really great for the Ruby community and for the growth of the language if wxRuby was more mature as a GUI toolkit. (Not knocking the wxRuby developers at all, its great that they've even done what they have - I know that creating other language (like Ruby) bindings to a C++ lib is a non-trivial task). My suggestion: Python + wxPython + Python DBI + (Py2Exe + InnoSetup) *might* meet all your needs. (As with any decision about what software technologies to use, you'll have to evaluate the suggested options to see if they fit your needs.) Note: I've used and like both Ruby and Python (saying this after using many, though not all, language features and libraries of both languages), and am not trying to discourage you from using Ruby for your needs; its just that, based on your needs as described, it looks to me as if Python meets them better than Ruby at present: 1. GUI - Native Look and Feel. According to wxRuby the bindings aren't mature enough for production use. Does anyone have any experience with this and/or can you offer alternatives that provide a native look and feel (I I don't know enough about wxRuby to comment. wxPython has this (Native Look and Feel), I think (used it some, a while ago), not 100% sure, you can check on the site - http:/www.wxpython.org - to make sure. The site does say that it is cross-platform: wxPython is a cross-platform toolkit. This means that the same program will run on multiple platforms without modification. Currently supported platforms are 32-bit Microsoft Windows, most Unix or unix- like systems, and Macintosh OS X. but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have native look and feel on all supported platforms. (The two are not the same thing.) That's why you will need to check. wxPython pros: Its fairly easy to learn, at least for simple GUI apps (e.g. a few widgets / controls and a file dialog or two). I was able to build these simple ones - see the code, article and screenshots available here (or from links from here): http://www.packtpub.com/article/Using_xtopdf - in quite a short time, starting from zero knowledge of wxPython (I did know some Python from before), just by looking at the sample apps, and some reading of the docs. See the quotes about wxPython:http://www.wxpython.org/quotes.php 2. Databases - contemplating using ActiveRecord, but I would like to use ODBC to support multiple types of DB's in a uniform way (if you know of alternatives to ODBC or ActiveRecord, please let me know). I think, but again, not sure, that Python DBI + appropriate database drivers, may meet this need. Basically Python DBI is similar to ODBC (roughly), and to Perl DBI + DBD, as I understand. There's also ODBC support in the Win32 extensions package for Python - IIRC, Google for 'win32all' to get it. Its also available as a link from the Python for Win32 MSI installer on python.org. I've used Python ODBC some, it works and is easy to use. See this for a simple example: http://jugad.livejournal.com/2006/07/07/ (See the second post at that page, titled Publishing ODBC database content as PDF . The code shown in the post is not indented as per proper the Python syntax (LiveJournal messed up the indentation), sorry about that, but its trivial to correct if you know Python indenting rules). Also read the Python ODBC docs and examples, of course. 3. Binary - Are there any utilities for compiling Ruby into a binary executable? The issue is twofold, speed, and not handing the customer the source :) For Python, there is py2exe (for Windows only). I used py2exe recently and it works well enough for the simple cases that I tried. (I tried building EXEs for a simple Python hello-world program, and for a simple wxPython GUI app based on my xtopdf toolkit. Both worked ok.) For cross-platform (Windows and Linux, IIRC), there is PyInstaller (Google for it), haven't tried it out yet, just downloaded it recently. I don't think you'll gain much speed by this compiling step, though (over and above what Python gives you itself, when it compiles your
Re: Technology solutions for Ruby?
On Jul 16, 1:46 pm, vasudevram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 16, 10:25 pm, vasudevram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ Though the OP posted his message to comp.lang.ruby, I'm cross- posting it to comp.lang.python, since he mentions Python as a possible alternative he's looking at, and also because I've recommended Python for his stated needs. Also, interested to see what other Pythonistas have to say in response to my reply. - Vasudev] On Jul 16, 2007, at 2:21 AM, Michael Reiland wrote: At the heart of the issue is the fact that I refuse to use Java for this project, I prefer not to use .Net because of the portability issues, and I'd like to get away from C++ for obvious reasons. To me this means Ruby, Python, or, as mentioned above, Perl. If anyone can tell me of a way to meet the above requirements in either Python or Perl, I'm all ears (I just prefer Ruby). Yes, I think it would be really great for the Ruby community and for the growth of the language if wxRuby was more mature as a GUI toolkit. (Not knocking the wxRuby developers at all, its great that they've even done what they have - I know that creating other language (like Ruby) bindings to a C++ lib is a non-trivial task). My suggestion: Python + wxPython + Python DBI + (Py2Exe + InnoSetup) *might* meet all your needs. (As with any decision about what software technologies to use, you'll have to evaluate the suggested options to see if they fit your needs.) Note: I've used and like both Ruby and Python (saying this after using many, though not all, language features and libraries of both languages), and am not trying to discourage you from using Ruby for your needs; its just that, based on your needs as described, it looks to me as if Python meets them better than Ruby at present: 1. GUI - Native Look and Feel. According to wxRuby the bindings aren't mature enough for production use. Does anyone have any experience with this and/or can you offer alternatives that provide a native look and feel (I I don't know enough about wxRuby to comment. wxPython has this (Native Look and Feel), I think (used it some, a while ago), not 100% sure, you can check on the site - http:/www.wxpython.org - to make sure. The site does say that it is cross-platform: wxPython is a cross-platform toolkit. This means that the same program will run on multiple platforms without modification. Currently supported platforms are 32-bit Microsoft Windows, most Unix or unix- like systems, and Macintosh OS X. but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have native look and feel on all supported platforms. (The two are not the same thing.) That's why you will need to check. wxPython pros: Its fairly easy to learn, at least for simple GUI apps (e.g. a few widgets / controls and a file dialog or two). I was able to build these simple ones - see the code, article and screenshots available here (or from links from here): http://www.packtpub.com/article/Using_xtopdf - in quite a short time, starting from zero knowledge of wxPython (I did know some Python from before), just by looking at the sample apps, and some reading of the docs. See the quotes about wxPython:http://www.wxpython.org/quotes.php 2. Databases - contemplating using ActiveRecord, but I would like to use ODBC to support multiple types of DB's in a uniform way (if you know of alternatives to ODBC or ActiveRecord, please let me know). I think, but again, not sure, that Python DBI + appropriate database drivers, may meet this need. Basically Python DBI is similar to ODBC (roughly), and to Perl DBI + DBD, as I understand. There's also ODBC support in the Win32 extensions package for Python - IIRC, Google for 'win32all' to get it. Its also available as a link from the Python for Win32 MSI installer on python.org. I've used Python ODBC some, it works and is easy to use. See this for a simple example: http://jugad.livejournal.com/2006/07/07/ (See the second post at that page, titled Publishing ODBC database content as PDF . The code shown in the post is not indented as per proper the Python syntax (LiveJournal messed up the indentation), sorry about that, but its trivial to correct if you know Python indenting rules). Also read the Python ODBC docs and examples, of course. 3. Binary - Are there any utilities for compiling Ruby into a binary executable? The issue is twofold, speed, and not handing the customer the source :) For Python, there is py2exe (for Windows only). I used py2exe recently and it works well enough for the simple cases that I tried. (I tried building EXEs for a simple Python hello-world program, and for a simple wxPython GUI app based on my xtopdf toolkit. Both worked ok.) For cross-platform (Windows and Linux, IIRC), there is PyInstaller (Google for it), haven't tried it out yet, just downloaded it
Re: Technology solutions for Ruby?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . wxPython uses the native widgets of the platform it is running on in most (if not all) cases, so if you want the native look feel, than that is the way I would go. They have the best user's group I've seen so far as well. Mike Now you have me curious--when you write of the best user's group ..., do you mean URL: http://www.python-forum.de/forum-19.html ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Technology solutions for Ruby?
vasudevram a écrit : (snip) To me this means Ruby, Python, or, as mentioned above, Perl. If anyone can tell me of a way to meet the above requirements in either Python or Perl, I'm all ears (I just prefer Ruby). 1. GUI - Native Look and Feel. According to wxRuby the bindings aren't mature enough for production use. (snip) wxPython has this (Native Look and Feel), I think It does - just like wxRuby, since both are language-specific bindings to the C++ wxWidgets toolkit. And FWIW, wxPython has been used on production for many years, so I think it qualifies as production ready !-) (snip) 2. Databases - contemplating using ActiveRecord, but I would like to use ODBC to support multiple types of DB's in a uniform way (if you know of alternatives to ODBC or ActiveRecord, please let me know). In Python, you may want to have a look at SQLAlchemy, which offers lots of things from the db abstraction layer to the full-blown (and possibily somewhat ActiveRecord-like, cf the Elixir project) ORM. (snip) 3. Binary - Are there any utilities for compiling Ruby into a binary executable? The issue is twofold, speed, and not handing the customer the source :) OP IIRC, Ruby is actually still an interpreted language. Python is much like Java wrt/ this issue : it's byte-compiled (the difference being that this step is automagically managed by the VM). IOW, you won't gain any speed from the existing packaging systems(but then, if your project is mostly a GUI/DB tunnel, the two most critical parts are already somewhat optimized). And the level of protection gained from these packaging systems is very debatable at best (which, FWIW, is also the case with Java). /OP (snip) I first learned Python, have been using it for some time for various projects, and then learned Ruby, and have done some projects with Ruby too. I've been reading both the Ruby Cookbook and the Python Cookbook rather thoroughly in the last few weeks (and trying out and modifying many of the recipes), and what I've observed is that the two languages are roughly similar in features. Yes. (snip) For more advanced language features related to object-orientation, metaclasses / metaprogramming, both have some support, s/some/great/g Both Ruby and Python are known for this. but you might or might not be able to do in one, what you can do in the other. I'd say that - wrt/ advanced programming tricks - *most* of what you can do with one can be done with the other - but usually in a *very* different way. While Ruby and Python have similar features and may look very similar at first sight, their respective object models are totally different. OP Basically, it's a matter of - which language *you* prefer - which one has the best libs for your app It seems that, in your case, you prefer Ruby but Python may *or not* have the best/more mature toolkit. So the best thing to do would be to first try to write a quick 'proof of concept' program in the language you prefer. Then, if you're still in doubt, write the same program in Python. My 2 cents (and friendly salutations to the Ruby community). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
