Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
James Stroud wrote: I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Windows, the reasons for such should be explicitly described, and not left to interpretation. I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Linux ... I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Mac ... I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Ruby ... I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Firefox ... I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Waxed Dental Floss ... People should not feel *required* to justify their decisions to c.l.py, especially if they are not trying to evangelize that choice. (FWIW, even from the original post it's very apparent that he's dissuading people from joining him.) It is true that giving the reasons for a choice will help responders put some perspective on it, and perhaps prompt a few alternatives, but c.l.py is not your mother, and shouldn't require you to justify the validity of your lifestyle to it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Rocco Moretti wrote: James Stroud wrote: I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Windows, the reasons for such should be explicitly described, and not left to interpretation. I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Linux ... I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Mac ... I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Ruby ... I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Firefox ... I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Waxed Dental Floss ... People should not feel *required* to justify their decisions to c.l.py, especially if they are not trying to evangelize that choice. (FWIW, even from the original post it's very apparent that he's dissuading people from joining him.) It is true that giving the reasons for a choice will help responders put some perspective on it, and perhaps prompt a few alternatives, but c.l.py is not your mother, and shouldn't require you to justify the validity of your lifestyle to it. Man, you mean I can use any dental floss I like?!?!?!?!!? regards Steve who quite agrees with the sentiments expressed above (it's an extension of the consenting adults philosophy). -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Chris Lambacher wrote: The shell that comes with MSys (from the MinGW guys). Is pretty good, although it does have a bit of a problem with stdout output before a process exits, ie it will hold back output until the process exits. As a bonus, the file system is a little more sane, and if you are interested in compiling software that is not open source, you are not tied to the Cygwin DLL which is GPLed. Worth mentioning here that cygwin's gcc does allow a -mno-cygwin compile-time flag to not link against the cygwin dll. Cygwin's packaging system also includes the MinGW development libraries as an easily installable option, for compiling against mingw's stuff; I've done it for Python extensions, in fact. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Try 4NT (http://www.jpsoft.com). It is like cmd on steroids. I've been using it for years and it is the *only* thing that makes powerful batch files possible on Windows. It has a slew of features, including batch file debugging. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
The OP is obviously a troll. Or he doesn't realize that you can use any shell in OSX as the user default. I used OSX for 4 years and had to go 100% Linux because of my employer. OSX is the best of Linux and Windows--anybody who can't see that has obviously not worked with these three types of operating systems enough and is basing conclusions on limited information...Or is a troll. The OP probably works for microsoft. James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
On 19/10/05, James Stroud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The OP is obviously a troll. Hey - let's not throw the T word around quite so freely. The OP did say that he was switching to Windows for unfortunate reasons, and that OSX was not as bad as Windows. Besides, it is possible to prefer Windows. Odd, but possible. Having moved from Windows to Mac recently myself, I know *I* won't be switching back, but reasonable men can differ. -- Though-clearly-not-differ-with-me-ly y'rs, Simon B. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Perhaps you didn't read my original post? I'm being forced to consider Windowsfor reasons beyond my control. Given that I wanted a decent shell in Windows,I thought I would ask about Python shells because I think Python is a great language,and such a beast would give me the flexibility I want on a machine I don't want touse. There is such a shell (though with a fifty page manual it'll be a little while beforeI start using it :-) ). End of matter, except for those who wish to discuss furtherPythonish/shell related issues. Why this demands an OS comparison and aninsult is beyond my understanding.KenOn 19-Oct-05, at 2:22 PM, James Stroud wrote:The OP is obviously a troll. Or he doesn't realize that you can use any shell in OSX as the user default. I used OSX for 4 years and had to go 100% Linux because of my employer. OSX is the best of Linux and Windows--anybody who can't see that has obviously not worked with these three types of operating systems enough and is basing conclusions on limited information...Or is a troll. The OP probably works for microsoft. James -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Try 4NT (http://www.jpsoft.com). It is like cmd on steroids. I've been using it for years and it is the *only* thing that makes powerful batch files possible on Windows. why bother with powerful batch files when you can use a real programming language ? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
First, my apologies. You sound sincere. But, in my defense to jump to conclusions and comparisons: (1) You compared first: Windows has so many annoyances that I can only compare it...Bay Area...OS X...Portland... (2) Unfortunate reasons can not necessarily be interpreted as beyond my control. For instance, elected officials take office many times for unfortunate reasons. Not the least of which is often the ignorance of the populace. I propose that any time anyone suggests switching to Windows, the reasons for such should be explicitly described, and not left to interpretation. James On Wednesday 19 October 2005 14:31, Kenneth McDonald wrote: Perhaps you didn't read my original post? I'm being forced to consider Windows for reasons beyond my control. Given that I wanted a decent shell in Windows, I thought I would ask about Python shells because I think Python is a great language, and such a beast would give me the flexibility I want on a machine I don't want to use. There is such a shell (though with a fifty page manual it'll be a little while before I start using it :-) ). End of matter, except for those who wish to discuss further Pythonish/shell related issues. Why this demands an OS comparison and an insult is beyond my understanding. Ken On 19-Oct-05, at 2:22 PM, James Stroud wrote: The OP is obviously a troll. Or he doesn't realize that you can use any shell in OSX as the user default. I used OSX for 4 years and had to go 100% Linux because of my employer. OSX is the best of Linux and Windows-- anybody who can't see that has obviously not worked with these three types of operating systems enough and is basing conclusions on limited information...Or is a troll. The OP probably works for microsoft. James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Hmm. I'm not sure what bothered you about cygwin, but if it has been awhile it's worth another look. For me it makes windows tolerable, and even productive. I'm scared more by your thoughts of transitioning from OS-X to windows. I've seen a bit of OS-X and am slowly be warmed up to it as an option for my next machine by some folks here. What is causing you problems with it ( enough to swtich to windows-wow.)? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
The shell that comes with MSys (from the MinGW guys). Is pretty good, although it does have a bit of a problem with stdout output before a process exits, ie it will hold back output until the process exits. As a bonus, the file system is a little more sane, and if you are interested in compiling software that is not open source, you are not tied to the Cygwin DLL which is GPLed. I have given up on Cygwin in favour of the tools that come with MSys because they seem slightly better suited to the windows environment. -Chris On Sat, Oct 15, 2005 at 08:45:17AM +, Jorgen Grahn wrote: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:37:25 +0200, Christophe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kenneth McDonald a ?crit : For unfortunate reasons, I'm considering switching back to Win XP (from OS X) as my main system. Windows has so many annoyances that I can ... Yes, I know that Cygwin is out there, but last I looked, they still went through the Win command-line window, which imposes a lot of restrictions. ... Last time I checked, you could install a native win32gui version of rxvt with cygwin. This would give you a better terminal window than that crappy thing you get in XP. Last time /I/ checked (two years ago or so) that rxvt looked nice enough, but was impossible to use in practice. I cannot remember /what/ the problem was -- possibly it was that it could only run CygWin-compiled commands, or something vital only worked with CygWin-compiled commands. Google probably knows more. I wouldn't be surprised if this has improved since then, or if someone else has come up with a serious Win32 terminal. There is surely a need for one! /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn jgrahn@ Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu \X/algonet.se R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Hi Claudio, I fully agree with you. I already used AutoIt 3 but when I moved to Linux I wasn't able to find anything similar. I moved also to Python for its power but also if it is called a scripting language it doesn't simply interact with graphical applications. As a last resort I tried DCOP (Desktop COmmunication Protocol) to at least interact (also from Python) with KDE applications. But even there it is impossible to send a simulated keystroke to a running KDE application (for ex. the konqueror browser). Also if I will not switch back to Windows, when I have macro and automation problems I am obliged to use XP (I have double boot...). Bye. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Jorgen Grahn wrote: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:37:25 +0200, Christophe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kenneth McDonald a écrit : For unfortunate reasons, I'm considering switching back to Win XP (from OS X) as my main system. Windows has so many annoyances that I can ... Yes, I know that Cygwin is out there, but last I looked, they still went through the Win command-line window, which imposes a lot of restrictions. ... Last time I checked, you could install a native win32gui version of rxvt with cygwin. This would give you a better terminal window than that crappy thing you get in XP. Last time /I/ checked (two years ago or so) that rxvt looked nice enough, but was impossible to use in practice. I cannot remember /what/ the problem was -- possibly it was that it could only run CygWin-compiled commands, or something vital only worked with CygWin-compiled commands. Google probably knows more. Cygwin comes with a fully-functioning X server, from which you can run just about any terminal program you like. For awhile, I was using Konsole, but KDE on Cygwin is a bit slow and buggy. Recently I switched to mrxvt, which is like rxvt but with tab support and keyboard shortcuts almost identical to Konsole. It's easy to compile for Cygwin, and so far I'm really enjoying the improved speed. Here's my .mrxvtrc: mrxvt*bottomTabbar: true mrxvt*scrollBar:false mrxvt*font: neep-alt-bold-14 mrxvt*boldFont: neep-alt-bold-14 mrxvt*foreground: snow mrxvt*background: black mrxvt*geometry: 80x40 mrxvt*saveLines:65535 mrxvt*hotkey*Dummy: Ctrl+Shift+underscore I like my tabs at the bottom, Konsole-style, and don't really like scrollbars on terminals. I use the Neep Alt font, which is nice for coding because it makes 'l', '|', '1', etc. all look different, and I like thick console fonts. I was a Fixedsys diehard for a long time. The saveLines variable lets you increase the scrollback buffer (shift-PgUp/Down) pretty high - I have it maxxed out. And that last line tells mrxvt to ignore C-_, which is undo in emacs. There are still a few other keyboard bindings that I'd like to turn off at some point. One drawback of mrxvt is that it doesn't support UTF-8. I don't do much multi-language stuff, but on most Linux distributions the manpages are in UTF-8, so you get garbage characters unless you fiddle with your LANG/LOCALE settings. Oh yeah, and to keep this on topic, Cygwin's Python works just fine in mrxvt, though the native Windows version doesn't work so well. It doesn't print any output, which I think is due to buffering... however, I tend to use PythonWin for interactive development, and emacs with M-x shell to actually test and run (native) Python scripts. I'm pretty happy with it, overall. Dave -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:37:25 +0200, Christophe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kenneth McDonald a écrit : For unfortunate reasons, I'm considering switching back to Win XP (from OS X) as my main system. Windows has so many annoyances that I can ... Yes, I know that Cygwin is out there, but last I looked, they still went through the Win command-line window, which imposes a lot of restrictions. ... Last time I checked, you could install a native win32gui version of rxvt with cygwin. This would give you a better terminal window than that crappy thing you get in XP. Last time /I/ checked (two years ago or so) that rxvt looked nice enough, but was impossible to use in practice. I cannot remember /what/ the problem was -- possibly it was that it could only run CygWin-compiled commands, or something vital only worked with CygWin-compiled commands. Google probably knows more. I wouldn't be surprised if this has improved since then, or if someone else has come up with a serious Win32 terminal. There is surely a need for one! /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn jgrahn@ Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu \X/algonet.se R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
On 10/14/05, Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Stapfer wrote: 0.0. ... and add an item to your SendTo folder that allows you to have Windows Explorer open a terminal window with its current directory set to the currently displayed folder (= Open terminal here).Or install the Command Prompt Here gadget that MS produces, which hasa massive installer and a click-through license thing and everything,just to open a freakin' prompt at a given directory -PeterThere's an excellent windows registry edit to open a command prompt at the given directory that I've been using. . .Here's a link. http://www.winguides.com/registry/display.php/260/Hope that helps,-Ivan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Kenneth McDonald a écrit : For unfortunate reasons, I'm considering switching back to Win XP (from OS X) as my main system. Windows has so many annoyances that I can only compare it to driving in the Bay Area at rush hour (OS X is like driving in Portland at rush hour--not as bad, but getting there), but there are really only a couple of things that are really, absolutely preventing me from making the switch. Number one is the lack of a decent command line and command-line environment, and I'm wondering (hoping) if perhaps someone has written a Python shell-- something that will look like a regular shell, let users type in commands, maybe have some of the nice features of bash etc. like tab completion, etc, and will then execute an underlying python script when the command is entered. I'm not thinking of IDLE, but something that is really aimed more at being a system terminal, not a Python- specific terminal. Yes, I know that Cygwin is out there, but last I looked, they still went through the Win command-line window, which imposes a lot of restrictions. More generally, has anyone written any python programs to administer various Win settings for which one must otherwise delve deep into mazes of twisty little dialogs, all alike? Or to help out with other annoyances? I know there are a lot of general utilities, but if they're in Python, I can also use them as a starting base for my own needs. Finally, a significant incentive in doing this is that I could avoid a lot of installation hassle, since virtually everything has at least a decent installation package for Win. (I'd hoped this would happen for OS X, but it never has). Can anyone think of important python- related packages (release level, not cutting edge alphas) for which this might not be the case? Many thanks, Ken Last time I checked, you could install a native win32gui version of rxvt with cygwin. This would give you a better terminal window than that crappy thing you get in XP. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Christian Stapfer wrote: 0.0. ... and add an item to your SendTo folder that allows you to have Windows Explorer open a terminal window with its current directory set to the currently displayed folder (= Open terminal here). Or install the Command Prompt Here gadget that MS produces, which has a massive installer and a click-through license thing and everything, just to open a freakin' prompt at a given directory. I'm continually amazed by how these little bits of knowledge (like the one Christian provides above and which I never knew before) have to be disseminated through the grass roots, so to speak. Definitely like the MS world is not set up for real developers easily to be productive. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Kenneth McDonald a écrit : For unfortunate reasons, I'm considering switching back to Win XP (from OS X) as my main system. Windows has so many annoyances that I can only compare it to driving in the Bay Area at rush hour (OS X is like driving in Portland at rush hour--not as bad, but getting there), but there are really only a couple of things that are really, absolutely preventing me from making the switch. Number one is the lack of a decent command line and command-line environment, and I'm wondering (hoping) if perhaps someone has written a Python shell-- something that will look like a regular shell, let users type in commands, maybe have some of the nice features of bash etc. like tab completion, etc, and will then execute an underlying python script when the command is entered. I'm not thinking of IDLE, but something that is really aimed more at being a system terminal, not a Python- specific terminal. Yes, I know that Cygwin is out there, but last I looked, they still went through the Win command-line window, which imposes a lot of restrictions. You can look at ipython: http://ipython.scipy.org. Its 'pysh' profile does much of what you describe, and has a dedicated following of win32 users precisely for your usage case. It gets installed to your start menu under win32 as a separate entry from the 'raw' ipython. Stop by the users list if you have further questions. Cheers, f -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Kenneth McDonald wrote: For unfortunate reasons, I'm considering switching back to Win XP (from OS X) as my main system. Windows has so many annoyances that I can only compare it to driving in the Bay Area at rush hour (OS X is like driving in Portland at rush hour--not as bad, but getting there), but there are really only a couple of things that are really, absolutely preventing me from making the switch. Number one is the lack of a decent command line and command-line environment, and I'm wondering (hoping) if perhaps someone has written a Python shell-- something that will look like a regular shell, let users type in commands, maybe have some of the nice features of bash etc. like tab completion, etc, and will then execute an underlying python script when the command is entered. I'm not thinking of IDLE, but something that is really aimed more at being a system terminal, not a Python- specific terminal. ipython -p pysh IPython rocks as a Python shell. I use zsh mostly, but IPython's pysh looks pretty good. I hate to help you get back on Windows, though :-) - jmj -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
What I can point you to is not Python, but embedding it in Python is a question of executing one line of Python code triggering its execution. I think you will be fascinated by its features and ease of use and how well it is suited to fit into your needs: http://www.autoitscript.com/autoit3/index.php With it you will start to see, that forcing to obey to Windows way of doing things has not only bad sides. Is there something similar for another OSs-es (especially Linux)? Claudio Kenneth McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For unfortunate reasons, I'm considering switching back to Win XP (from OS X) as my main system. Windows has so many annoyances that I can only compare it to driving in the Bay Area at rush hour (OS X is like driving in Portland at rush hour--not as bad, but getting there), but there are really only a couple of things that are really, absolutely preventing me from making the switch. Number one is the lack of a decent command line and command-line environment, and I'm wondering (hoping) if perhaps someone has written a Python shell-- something that will look like a regular shell, let users type in commands, maybe have some of the nice features of bash etc. like tab completion, etc, and will then execute an underlying python script when the command is entered. I'm not thinking of IDLE, but something that is really aimed more at being a system terminal, not a Python- specific terminal. Yes, I know that Cygwin is out there, but last I looked, they still went through the Win command-line window, which imposes a lot of restrictions. More generally, has anyone written any python programs to administer various Win settings for which one must otherwise delve deep into mazes of twisty little dialogs, all alike? Or to help out with other annoyances? I know there are a lot of general utilities, but if they're in Python, I can also use them as a starting base for my own needs. Finally, a significant incentive in doing this is that I could avoid a lot of installation hassle, since virtually everything has at least a decent installation package for Win. (I'd hoped this would happen for OS X, but it never has). Can anyone think of important python- related packages (release level, not cutting edge alphas) for which this might not be the case? Many thanks, Ken -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
Kenneth McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] absolutely preventing me from making the switch. Number one is the lack of a decent command line and command-line environment, and I'm wondering (hoping) if perhaps someone has written a Python shell-- something that will look like a regular shell, let users type in commands, maybe have some of the nice features of bash etc. like tab completion, etc, and will then execute an underlying python script when the command is entered. I'm not thinking of IDLE, but something that is really aimed more at being a system terminal, not a Python- specific terminal. [...] cmd.exe can be made bearable. I just got a new machine, so I'll have to do this myself in the next few days... 0. Make a shortcut to cmd.exe, stick it somewhere get-at-able, eg. quick launch toolbar 1. Somewhere under the menu reachable from the little icon in the top-left corner you can set the default directory when cmd is launched, plus there's some way to set up env vars (eg. PYTHONPATH) 2. Fiddle with buffers to make them sensible sizes (that menu again). 3. Adjust colours to taste (menu again). 4. There's a registry key for tab completion somewhere... 5. Make sure .py is associated with the Python you want Also see IPython, which does do shell-ish things as well as python-ish things. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
[John J. Lee wrote] 4. There's a registry key for tab completion somewhere... Search for CompletionChar and change it to 9. http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/Windows/2000/server/reskit/en-us/Default.asp?url=/resources/documentation/Windows/2000/server/reskit/en-us/regentry/34995.asp Cheers, Trent -- Trent Mick [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Yes, this is a python question, and a serious one at that (moving to Win XP)
John J. Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Kenneth McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] absolutely preventing me from making the switch. Number one is the lack of a decent command line and command-line environment, and I'm wondering (hoping) if perhaps someone has written a Python shell-- something that will look like a regular shell, let users type in commands, maybe have some of the nice features of bash etc. like tab completion, etc, and will then execute an underlying python script when the command is entered. I'm not thinking of IDLE, but something that is really aimed more at being a system terminal, not a Python- specific terminal. [...] cmd.exe can be made bearable. I just got a new machine, so I'll have to do this myself in the next few days... 0. Make a shortcut to cmd.exe, stick it somewhere get-at-able, eg. quick launch toolbar 0.0. ... and add an item to your SendTo folder that allows you to have Windows Explorer open a terminal window with its current directory set to the currently displayed folder (= Open terminal here). Regards, Christian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
