Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
thank you, that was what I needed. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Neil Schemenauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NS) wrote: NS Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't your OS have an entropy-gathering RN generator built-in? NS Alternatively, if you want lots of high-quality random numbers, buy NS a cheap web camera: http://www.lavarnd.org/ . Using data from the NS Internet is just a bad idea. What about www.random.org? -- Piet van Oostrum [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4] Private email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
On 2005-11-03, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that the timing of certain network events is one of the Linux kernel's entropy sources. BSD as well. The key word is one. While network events don't make a good source of random data, proplery combining such sources can create good random data. pedant Depends on what you mean by random. In particular, the randomness of network events does not follow a uniform distribution, but then not many things do. One presumes there is a way to uniformize the events, but I'm just guessings. [...] I have no idea what distribution data from the Internet would have, I would imagine it is *extremely* non-uniform and *very* biased towards certain values (lots of and I bet, and relatively few \x03). I've never heard of anybody using the data as source of entropy. All the entropy gathering I've read about used the timing of network events, not the user-data associated with those events. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! ... this must be what at it's like to be a COLLEGE visi.comGRADUATE!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
On 2005-11-03, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never heard of anybody using the data as source of entropy. All the entropy gathering I've read about used the timing of network events, not the user-data associated with those events. Me neither, but the original poster did ask how to read every nth byte of the Internet stream, so I assumed he had something like that in mind. I agree that would be a pretty bad idea unless you went to some effort to reduce the bias in the distribution of the value of data bytes. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'd like MY data-base at JULIENNED and stir-fried! visi.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:51:30 +, Grant Edwards wrote: I have no idea what distribution data from the Internet would have, I would imagine it is *extremely* non-uniform and *very* biased towards certain values (lots of and I bet, and relatively few \x03). I've never heard of anybody using the data as source of entropy. All the entropy gathering I've read about used the timing of network events, not the user-data associated with those events. Me neither, but the original poster did ask how to read every nth byte of the Internet stream, so I assumed he had something like that in mind. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
On 2005-11-03, Peter Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never heard of anybody using the data as source of entropy. Me neither, but the original poster did ask how to read every nth byte of the Internet stream, so I assumed he had something like that in mind. And to think that if you'd just waited for the OP to explain what the heck he meant by the Internet stream, you'd have saved ever so much time. ;-) (But then, if we always did that Usenet wouldn't be any fun.) That's for sure. The real questions are rarely as interesting and the imagined ones. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Well, O.K. I'll at compromise with my visi.comprinciples because of EXISTENTIAL DESPAIR! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:51:30 +, Grant Edwards wrote: I've never heard of anybody using the data as source of entropy. Me neither, but the original poster did ask how to read every nth byte of the Internet stream, so I assumed he had something like that in mind. And to think that if you'd just waited for the OP to explain what the heck he meant by the Internet stream, you'd have saved ever so much time. ;-) (But then, if we always did that Usenet wouldn't be any fun.) -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:40:43 -0500, Peter Hansen wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:51:30 +, Grant Edwards wrote: I've never heard of anybody using the data as source of entropy. Me neither, but the original poster did ask how to read every nth byte of the Internet stream, so I assumed he had something like that in mind. And to think that if you'd just waited for the OP to explain what the heck he meant by the Internet stream, you'd have saved ever so much time. ;-) Has he done so yet? I can't see it anywhere. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:40:43 -0500, Peter Hansen wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:51:30 +, Grant Edwards wrote: I've never heard of anybody using the data as source of entropy. Me neither, but the original poster did ask how to read every nth byte of the Internet stream, so I assumed he had something like that in mind. And to think that if you'd just waited for the OP to explain what the heck he meant by the Internet stream, you'd have saved ever so much time. ;-) Has he done so yet? I can't see it anywhere. He hasn't, so you'd _still_ be saving time. wink -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
hotbits hotbits hotbits! http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ based on quantum mechanics check it out! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Levi Campbell wrote: Hi, I'm working on a random number generator using the internet as a way to gather entropy, I have two questions. 1. is there a way to capture the internet stream? What specifically do you mean by the term internet stream here? Generally speaking, the internet is not streamed at all, but perhaps you have some special meaning in mind that isn't in general use. -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Levi Campbell wrote: Hi, I'm working on a random number generator using the internet as a way to gather entropy, I have two questions. 1. is there a way to capture the internet stream? what's an internet stream? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Peter Hansen wrote: Hi, I'm working on a random number generator using the internet as a way to gather entropy, I have two questions. 1. is there a way to capture the internet stream? What specifically do you mean by the term internet stream here? Generally speaking, the internet is not streamed at all, but perhaps you have some special meaning in mind that isn't in general use. maybe it's something like this he's looking for: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pylibpcap/ /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
On 2005-11-02, Levi Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm working on a random number generator using the internet as a way to gather entropy, I have two questions. 1. is there a way to capture the internet stream? What OS? What, exactly, do you want to capture? 2. how would I skip every 2nd, 3rd, or 4th byte to protect privacy? 2nd, 3rd, 4th, byte of what? Doesn't your OS have an entropy-gathering RN generator built-in? -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow! I forgot my at PAIL!! visi.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2005-11-02, Levi Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm working on a random number generator using the internet as a way to gather entropy, I have two questions. So far interesting. 1. is there a way to capture the internet stream? Most news sites provide RSS and/or ATOM feeds these days. Or maybe you mean video/audio stream from Internet stations? (not sure how much entropy such a stream could contain: probably depends on the genre ;-) Or perhaps you mean low-level Ethernet/TCP/IP stream? Then it is not original and I already saw answers with recomendations. Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't your OS have an entropy-gathering RN generator built-in? Alternatively, if you want lots of high-quality random numbers, buy a cheap web camera: http://www.lavarnd.org/ . Using data from the Internet is just a bad idea. Neil -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Mike Meyer wrote: Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2005-11-02, Neil Schemenauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Using data from the Internet is just a bad idea. I think that the timing of certain network events is one of the Linux kernel's entropy sources. BSD as well. The key word is one. While network events don't make a good source of random data, proplery combining such sources can create good random data. pedant Depends on what you mean by random. In particular, the randomness of network events does not follow a uniform distribution, but then not many things do. Uniformly distributed random data is what you want for cryptography. If you are modelling physical events, you might want some other distribution, e.g. normal (bell curve), Poisson, exponential, binomial, geometric, hypergeometric, and so forth. I have no idea what distribution data from the Internet would have, I would imagine it is *extremely* non-uniform and *very* biased towards certain values (lots of and I bet, and relatively few \x03). But, for the sake of the argument, if that's the random distribution that you actually need, then the Internet would be a good source of randomness. \pedant Just not for encryption. It would be terrible for that. Randomness is a deep subject. This is certainly true. I love the Dilbert cartoon where Dilbert is on a tour of Accounting. He comes across a troll sitting at a desk chanting Nine, nine, nine, nine, His guide says, This is our random number generator. Dilbert looks skeptical and asks Are you sure that's random?, to which the guide answers That's the trouble with randomness, you can never be sure. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: reading internet data to generate random numbers.
Steven D'Aprano wrote: Mike Meyer wrote: BSD as well. The key word is one. While network events don't make a good source of random data, proplery combining such sources can create good random data. pedant Depends on what you mean by random. In particular, the randomness of network events does not follow a uniform distribution, but then not many things do. Uniformly distributed random data is what you want for cryptography. If you are modelling physical events, you might want some other distribution, e.g. normal (bell curve), Poisson, exponential, binomial, geometric, hypergeometric, and so forth. I have no idea what distribution data from the Internet would have, I would imagine it is *extremely* non-uniform and *very* biased towards certain values (lots of and I bet, and relatively few \x03). But, for the sake of the argument, if that's the random distribution that you actually need, then the Internet would be a good source of randomness. No, it works just fine as a source of randomness. It does not work as a stream of uniform random bytes, which is a different thing altogether (and to be fair, Mike made that distinction fairly clearly). It's perfectly good as one of many sources to draw on to rekey a cryptographically strong PRNG, though. C.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna_(PRNG) -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
