Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Alex Martelli]

Sybren Stuvel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dan Bishop enlightened us with:
>  a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
>  a is b
> > True
>  a == b
> > False
> 
> If "a is b" then they refer to the same object, hence a == b. It
> cannot be otherwise, unless Python starts to defy logic. I copied your

Python also needs to respect standards (such as IEEE 754 for
floating-point arithmetic, and the SQL standards) which do specify the
existence of special objects that "are not equal to anything" including
themselves -- Nan and NULL respectively for these two standards.

We're talking about extremely widespread international standards
developed by huge body of professionals which do include professional
logicians, so I doubt they "defy logic".  Python tries to delegate FP to
the underlying hardware and SQL to an external relational DB engine, so
it should be as compliant as the pieces of infrastructure it's using --
which seems to me to be a good architectural decision (not just for
speed and ease of coding, but to ensure any anomaly is somebody else's
fault:-).


Alex
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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Sion Arrowsmith]

Simon Forman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Python 2.4.3 (#2, Apr 27 2006, 14:43:58)
>[GCC 4.0.3 (Ubuntu 4.0.3-1ubuntu5)] on linux2
>Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>
>|>> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
>|>> a is b
>True
>|>> a == b
>False

I agree with you:

$ python
Python 2.4.1 (#2, May  5 2005, 11:32:06)
[GCC 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-12)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
>>> a is b
True
>>> a == b
False

Or maybe I don't:

$ python2.3
Python 2.3.5 (#2, Sep  4 2005, 22:01:42)
[GCC 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-13)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
>>> a is b
True
>>> a == b
True

See:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-bugs-list/2004-February/022133.html

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Dan Sommers]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:06:03 +0200,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In [14]: a is b
> Out[14]: True

> In [15]: a == b
> Out[15]: False

> In [16]: a
> Out[16]: nan

> On my platform the division results in "Not A Number".  Two NaNs
> compared are always `False`.  You could argue that this is the very
> same NaN but to get this effect the interpreter has to take care that
> every NaN produced while a program is running is unique.  Quite huge
> overhead for such a corner case IMHO.

The interpreter isn't doing anything special; nans have [the equivalent
of] an __eq__ method that always returns False.

Regards,
Dan

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sybren Stuvel wrote:

> Dan Bishop enlightened us with:
> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
> a is b
>> True
> a == b
>> False
> 
> If "a is b" then they refer to the same object, hence a == b. It
> cannot be otherwise, unless Python starts to defy logic. I copied your
> code and got the expected result:
> 
 a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
 a is b
> True
 a == b
> True

I get the same as Dan:

In [13]: a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000

In [14]: a is b
Out[14]: True

In [15]: a == b
Out[15]: False

In [16]: a
Out[16]: nan

On my platform the division results in "Not A Number".  Two NaNs compared
are always `False`.  You could argue that this is the very same NaN but to
get this effect the interpreter has to take care that every NaN produced
while a program is running is unique.  Quite huge overhead for such a
corner case IMHO.

Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Simon Forman]

Sybren Stuvel wrote:
> Dan Bishop enlightened us with:
>  a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
>  a is b
> > True
>  a == b
> > False
>
> If "a is b" then they refer to the same object, hence a == b. It
> cannot be otherwise, unless Python starts to defy logic. I copied your
> code and got the expected result:
>
> >>> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
> >>> a is b
> True
> >>> a == b
> True
>
> Sybren

Python 2.4.3 (#2, Apr 27 2006, 14:43:58)
[GCC 4.0.3 (Ubuntu 4.0.3-1ubuntu5)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

|>> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
|>> a is b
True
|>> a == b
False

Huh.  Weird.  I copied it too and got the "wrong" result.

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Sybren Stuvel wrote:
> Dan Bishop enlightened us with:
>  a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
>  a is b
> > True
>  a == b
> > False
>
> If "a is b" then they refer to the same object, hence a == b. It
> cannot be otherwise, unless Python starts to defy logic. I copied your
> code and got the expected result:
>
> >>> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
> >>> a is b
> True
> >>> a == b
> True

Probably depends on the implementation.  1e1000/1e1000 yields a NaN
here, and I get True for "a is b" but False for "a==b".  Presumably
comparing a NaN for equality (any comparison?) always yields False.

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Hendrik van Rooyen]

 "Dan Bishop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


| Sybren Stuvel wrote [on the difference between is and ==]:
| > Obviously "a is b" implies "a == b",
|
| Not necessarily.
|
| >>> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
| >>> a is b
| True
| >>> a == b
| False

Huh? - wtf is this - I find this deeply disturbing - Sybren's explanation kind
of was congruent with my own understanding, and this is just weird - Hendrik

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Dan Bishop]

Steve Holden wrote:
> daniel wrote:
> > Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> [...]
> >>For some objects, "change the object" is impossible. If you have
> >>
> >>a = b = 3
> >>
> >>then there is no way to change the object 3 to become 4 (say);
> >>integer objects are "immutable". So for these, to make a change,
> >>you really have to change the variable, not the value.
> >>
> >
> > sounds reasonable, I tried tuple which is also immutable, it behaves
> > the same as integers.
> >
> Well spotted. Tuples are indeed immutable, as are strings, unicode
> strings, integers and floats.

But tuples can contain mutable objects.

>>> a = (0, [1])
>>> a[1].append(2)
>>> a
(0, [1, 2])

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Dan Bishop]

Sybren Stuvel wrote [on the difference between is and ==]:
> Obviously "a is b" implies "a == b",

Not necessarily.

>>> a = b = 1e1000 / 1e1000
>>> a is b
True
>>> a == b
False

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Terry Reedy]

"Sybren Stuvel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 'is' compares the object's addresses.

It actually compares the objects' integer identifiers.  That happens to be 
the linear memory address for CPython, but not necesarily so for other 
interpreters.

tjr



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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Steve Holden]

daniel wrote:
> Martin v. Löwis wrote:
[...]
>>For some objects, "change the object" is impossible. If you have
>>
>>a = b = 3
>>
>>then there is no way to change the object 3 to become 4 (say);
>>integer objects are "immutable". So for these, to make a change,
>>you really have to change the variable, not the value.
>>
> 
> sounds reasonable, I tried tuple which is also immutable, it behaves
> the same as integers. 
> 
Well spotted. Tuples are indeed immutable, as are strings, unicode 
strings, integers and floats.

regards
  Steve
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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[daniel]

Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> daniel wrote:
> > when I tried to check the stuff out, found sth interesting that if you
> > define variables in a style like this:
> > a = b = ['a', 'b']
> > changing one list affects the other, and they still refer to same
> > object. in fact, seems all compound types (dictionary for instance)
> > behave in this way.
> >
> > however, when list is replaced with other built-in  types like integers
> > :
> > a = b = 3
> > changing one of them cause the two objects differ...
>
> Ah, but make a difference between "change a variable", and "change an
> object".
>
> py> a = b = [1,2,3]
> py> a[0] = 6   # don't change the variable a, just change the object
> py> a
> [6, 2, 3]
> py> b
> [6, 2, 3]
> py> a=[7,8,9]  # change the variable a;
># it's now a different object than b
mm, python runtime might allocate a new chunk of memory for this... but
might not for the previous operation..
> py> a
> [7, 8, 9]
> py> b
> [6, 2, 3]
>
> For some objects, "change the object" is impossible. If you have
>
> a = b = 3
>
> then there is no way to change the object 3 to become 4 (say);
> integer objects are "immutable". So for these, to make a change,
> you really have to change the variable, not the value.
>
sounds reasonable, I tried tuple which is also immutable, it behaves
the same as integers. 

> Regards,
> Martin

tks Martin...

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Martin v. Löwis]

daniel wrote:
> when I tried to check the stuff out, found sth interesting that if you
> define variables in a style like this:
> a = b = ['a', 'b']
> changing one list affects the other, and they still refer to same
> object. in fact, seems all compound types (dictionary for instance)
> behave in this way.
> 
> however, when list is replaced with other built-in  types like integers
> :
> a = b = 3
> changing one of them cause the two objects differ...

Ah, but make a difference between "change a variable", and "change an
object".

py> a = b = [1,2,3]
py> a[0] = 6   # don't change the variable a, just change the object
py> a
[6, 2, 3]
py> b
[6, 2, 3]
py> a=[7,8,9]  # change the variable a;
   # it's now a different object than b
py> a
[7, 8, 9]
py> b
[6, 2, 3]

For some objects, "change the object" is impossible. If you have

a = b = 3

then there is no way to change the object 3 to become 4 (say);
integer objects are "immutable". So for these, to make a change,
you really have to change the variable, not the value.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[daniel]

many thanks to Sybren and Kirk for your helpful explanation.

when I tried to check the stuff out, found sth interesting that if you
define variables in a style like this:
a = b = ['a', 'b']
changing one list affects the other, and they still refer to same
object. in fact, seems all compound types (dictionary for instance)
behave in this way.

however, when list is replaced with other built-in  types like integers
:
a = b = 3
changing one of them cause the two objects differ...


best regards.

daniel

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Re: what is the keyword "is" for?

[Kirk McDonald]

daniel wrote:
> I'm so confused by the keyword "is" and "==" equal sign, it seems they
> could be exchanged in some contexts, but not in others, what's the
> difference between them in terms of comparation?
> 
> thanks...
> 
> daniel
> 

  'is' compares object identity. == compares values.

 >>> a = [1, 2, 3]
 >>> b = [1, 2, 3]
 >>> a is b
False
 >>> a == b
True

In this example, a and b refer to two separate lists that happen to hold 
the same values. Thus, 'is' returns False, and == returns True. On the 
other hand:

 >>> c = d = [4, 5, 6]
 >>> c is d
True
 >>> c == d
True

Here, c and d refer to the same list. Therefore, 'is' returns true (they 
both refer to the same object), as does == (an object is always equal to 
itself, unless you overload the equality check in a weird way).

The distinction can easily be seen if we try to mutate these lists:

 >>> a.append(4)
 >>> a is b
False
 >>> a == b
False
 >>> c.append(7)
 >>> c is d
True
 >>> c == d
True

When we mutate a, b is not affected. They are two different lists, and 
changing 'a' makes it so they are no longer equal.

When we mutate c, d IS affected; they refer to the same list.

You can easily confuse yourself if you ever talk about applying 'is' to 
(for example) integers. Python may re-use certain small integers when 
you might not expect it to; this is done in the interests of efficiency. 
If you only compare the /values/ of numbers (with ==), then you will 
never notice this.

 >>> a = 1
 >>> b = 1
 >>> c = 100
 >>> d = 100
 >>> a is b
True
 >>> c is d
False

-Kirk McDonald
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