Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On Friday 10 January 2014 21:52:49 Dennis Lee Bieber did opine: On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:55:37 + (UTC), Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid declaimed the following: It got darned cold here in Minnesota on Monday (-23F in Minneapolis, -35F in Embarass), but Hell is in Michigan -- where it only got down to -15F. Does that mean that Hell should be Embarassed? Nah, they are used to it by now. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene May cause drowsiness. A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:52:36 +, Bob Martin wrote: we dont have Daylight saving time we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have also used DST (Double Summer Time). British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time. My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving Time that is an Americanism :-) Sorry, but you are wrong again! Just Google it. Wikipedia Daylight saving time (DST)—usually referred to as Summer Time in the United Kingdom I had never heard the term daylight savings untill windows added it as a tick box. -- And I alone am returned to wag the tail. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:10:41 +, Alister wrote: On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:52:36 +, Bob Martin wrote: we dont have Daylight saving time we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have also used DST (Double Summer Time). British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time. My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving Time that is an Americanism :-) Sorry, but you are wrong again! Just Google it. Wikipedia Daylight saving time (DST)—usually referred to as Summer Time in the United Kingdom I had never heard the term daylight savings untill windows added it as a tick box. or a more Authoritave souce https://www.gov.uk/when-do-the-clocks-change The period when the clocks are 1 hour ahead is called British Summer Time (BST). -- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only much, much heavier. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:10:41 +, Alister wrote: On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:52:36 +, Bob Martin wrote: we dont have Daylight saving time we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have also used DST (Double Summer Time). British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time. My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving Time that is an Americanism :-) Sorry, but you are wrong again! Just Google it. Wikipedia Daylight saving time (DST)—usually referred to as Summer Time in the United Kingdom I had never heard the term daylight savings untill windows added it as a tick box. or a more Authoritave souce https://www.gov.uk/when-do-the-clocks-change The period when the clocks are 1 hour ahead is called British Summer Time (BST). -- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only much, much heavier. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:31:11 +, Bob Martin wrote:
in 714232 20140109 120741 Alister alister.w...@ntlworld.com wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney
ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au
wrote:
I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)
I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that
we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not
nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour
timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an
integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain.
What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't
handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we
play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people
watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time,
the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the
Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and
get confused.
I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the
pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.
In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to
change the batteries in their smoke detectors.
ChrisA
[1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its
clocks.
I remember this From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept
daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial
reasons, especially regarding time conformity with other European
countries. My source
http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html
we dont have Daylight saving time we switch between GMT (Greenwich
Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we
have also used DST (Double Summer Time).
British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time.
My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving Time
that is an Americanism :-)
--
if (argc 1 strcmp(argv[1], -advice) == 0) {
printf(Don't Panic!\n);
exit(42);
}
-- Arnold Robbins in the LJ of February '95, describing RCS
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:14:55 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: [snip] What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the globe into a single glorious time zone. After enumerating the efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the east coast of the United States. My point: we deserve the teasing. -- To email me, substitute nowhere-spamcop, invalid-net. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On 2014-01-10 18:22, Peter Pearson wrote: On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:14:55 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: [snip] What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the globe into a single glorious time zone. After enumerating the efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the east coast of the United States. What a silly idea! The logical choice is UTC. :-) My point: we deserve the teasing. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On 10/01/2014 18:48, MRAB wrote: On 2014-01-10 18:22, Peter Pearson wrote: On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:14:55 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: [snip] What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the globe into a single glorious time zone. After enumerating the efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the east coast of the United States. What a silly idea! The logical choice is UTC. :-) Hell will freeze over first. But apparently it already has in Minnesota. Drat, drat and double drat!!! My point: we deserve the teasing. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On 2014-01-10, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hell will freeze over first. But apparently it already has in Minnesota. Drat, drat and double drat!!! It got darned cold here in Minnesota on Monday (-23F in Minneapolis, -35F in Embarass), but Hell is in Michigan -- where it only got down to -15F. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/2456 -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On Friday 10 January 2014 15:24:11 Mark Lawrence did opine: On 10/01/2014 18:48, MRAB wrote: On 2014-01-10 18:22, Peter Pearson wrote: On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:14:55 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: [snip] What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the globe into a single glorious time zone. After enumerating the efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the east coast of the United States. What a silly idea! The logical choice is UTC. :-) Hell will freeze over first. But apparently it already has in Minnesota. Drat, drat and double drat!!! That Hell the headlines referred to is in Michigan... Its a headline they drag out every time we get a cold snap its ano otherwise slow news day. Nothing to see here, now move along please... My point: we deserve the teasing. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Young men want to be faithful and are not; old men want to be faithless and cannot. -- Oscar Wilde A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)
In article bjas3gfg58...@mid.individual.net, Peter Pearson ppearson@nowhere.invalid wrote: Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the globe into a single glorious time zone. After enumerating the efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the east coast of the United States. 30 years ago, that would have been a plausible choice. Today, not so much. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
in 714281 20140110 090409 Alister alister.w...@ntlworld.com wrote: On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:31:11 +, Bob Martin wrote: in 714232 20140109 120741 Alister alister.w...@ntlworld.com wrote: On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-) I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain. What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes, I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't. In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to change the batteries in their smoke detectors. ChrisA [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST. Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks. I remember this From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial reasons, especially regarding time conformity with other European countries. My source http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html we dont have Daylight saving time we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have also used DST (Double Summer Time). British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time. My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving Time that is an Americanism :-) Sorry, but you are wrong again! Just Google it. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-) I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain. What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes, I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't. In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to change the batteries in their smoke detectors. ChrisA [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST. Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks. I remember this From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial reasons, especially regarding time conformity with other European countries. My source http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html we dont have Daylight saving time we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have also used DST (Double Summer Time). -- Endless the world's turn, endless the sun's spinning Endless the quest; I turn again, back to my own beginning, And here, find rest. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:14:55 +1100, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST. Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks. And Indiana. -- DaveA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
in 714232 20140109 120741 Alister alister.w...@ntlworld.com wrote: On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-) I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain. What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes, I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't. In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to change the batteries in their smoke detectors. ChrisA [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST. Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks. I remember this From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial reasons, especially regarding time conformity with other European countries. My source http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html we dont have Daylight saving time we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have also used DST (Double Summer Time). British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com writes: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: With time zones, as with text encodings, there is a single technically elegant solution (for text: Unicode; for time zones: twelve simple, static zones that never change) Twelve or twenty-four? Twenty-four time zones, yes. My mistake. I'm currently reading URL:http://savingthedaylight.com/ David Prerau's _Saving the Daylight: Why We Put The Clocks Forward_. It's got an acknowledged bias, that DST is overall a good thing; I disagree strongly with that position. But it's also very well researched and engagingly written. Not only does it explain the motivations and history of the present system of Daylight Shifting Time (or, as the world misleadingly calls it, Daylight “Saving” Time), it goes into the history that pre-dates that system and led to the system of time zones at all. I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-) -- \ “Only the educated are free.” —Epictetus, _Discourses_ | `\ | _o__) | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-) I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain. What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes, I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't. In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to change the batteries in their smoke detectors. ChrisA [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST. Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often
On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-) I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain. What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time? and get confused. I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes, I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't. In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to change the batteries in their smoke detectors. ChrisA [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST. Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks. I remember this From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial reasons, especially regarding time conformity with other European countries. My source http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
