Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't thank you enough for your reply and for everyones' great info on this thread. The end of your email gave a rock solid reason why it is impossible to improve upon ()'s for tuples Actually, you missed the point. The parentheses don't have anything to do with the tuple. They are just used for disambiguation. It's the commas that define the tuple. -- Timo Virkkala -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Roy Smith wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + being an operator Looks more like a smiley for guy wearing a bowtie :)), I had a nice laugh with this one. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
On Dec 29, 2004, at 3:38 PM, Rocco Moretti wrote: So to summarize: Commas define tuples, except when they don't, and parentheses are only required when they are necessary. Exactly! Now can we clear anything else up for you? ;-) ___/ / __/ / / Ed Leafe http://leafe.com/ http://dabodev.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Computer text recognition (was. Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?)
Ed Leafe wrote: Exactly! Now can we clear anything else up for you? ;-) How about a computer program than can correctly count the number of letter E's in your signature? :) Cheers, Nick. I like the sig, if you hadn't guessed. . . -- Nick Coghlan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Brisbane, Australia --- http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
John Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... and division. We've allowed ourselves to be limited by the ASCII character set for so long that improving that seems to be outside of most people's boxes. APL didn't allow itself to be limited that way. Anybody who's used it can hardly be accused to keep non-ASCII characters outside their box. And, you know what? Despite being an old APL user, I think would be a _disaster_ for Python to go that route. Yes, ASCII imposes design constraints. But constraints can be a good and helpful thing. Look for example at what classical architects and sculptors DID, within horrible technical constraints on materials and methods, and compare it with artsy modern architecture, which can use an enormously wider palette of technical approaches and materials... I think a tiny minority of today's architecture and sculpture can rightfully be compared with the masterpieces of millennia past. Similarly, highly constrained forms such as sonnet or haiku can unchain a poet's creativity in part BECAUSE of the strict constraints they impose wrt free verse or prose... Back to feet-on-ground issues, mandating a wider-than-ASCII character set would horribly limit the set of devices, as well as of software tools, usable with/for Python -- I love the fact that Python runs on cellphones, for example. Input methods for characters outside the ASCII set are always a bother, particularly to the touch-typist: even to enter Italian accented vowels, on this US keyboard, I have to go through definitely eccessive gyrations, which horribly slow down my usually very fast typing. Seeing what you're doing can sometimes be a bother too: you need to ensure the glyphs for all the characters you need are readable _and distinguishable_ in whatever font you're using. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Dan Sommers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I was pretty sure that « and » were guillmots, but google sure preferred the sea bird when I asked it. They're guillemets (with an e); this is a [relatively] well-known Adobe SNAFU. (A quick google search or two failed to find an authoritative reference, but I know that such references are out there somewhere.) Ameritan Heritage dictionary: SYLLABICATION: guil·le·met PRONUNCIATION: gl-mt, g--m NOUN: Either of a pair of punctuation marks («) or (») used in some languages, such as French and Russian, to mark the beginning and end of a quotation. SYLLABICATION: guil·le·mot PRONUNCIATION: gl-mt NOUN: Any of several auks of the genus Cepphus, having black plumage with white markings. Both come from the French name Guillaume (William), but they happened to pass into English with slightly different spellings. (I find American Heritage to be a very authoritative reference -- I just love it!-). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Jeff Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... to remember and type some arcane alt-keycode formula to be able to do basic scripting would be obnoxious, to say the least. Most keyboards worldwide provide decent support for the ASCII character set (though some add a few extra national characters). Perhaps things will change Italian-layout support for braces is the pits (alt-keycodes ahoy): one way I managed to get a local friend interested in Python was to point out that he'd neved NEED to type braces (calling `dict' is just as good a way to make dictionaries, as braces-laden `dict display' forms;-). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Alex Martelli wrote: Jeff Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... to remember and type some arcane alt-keycode formula to be able to do basic scripting would be obnoxious, to say the least. Most keyboards worldwide provide decent support for the ASCII character set (though some add a few extra national characters). Perhaps things will change Italian-layout support for braces is the pits (alt-keycodes ahoy): one way I managed to get a local friend interested in Python was to point out that he'd neved NEED to type braces (calling `dict' is just as good a way to make dictionaries, as braces-laden `dict display' forms;-). That's equally true for the German keyboard layout, though I believe that most programmers switch to standard English layout anyway. Reinhold -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Carl Banks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Martellix wrote: I think a tiny minority of today's architecture and sculpture can rightfully be compared with the masterpieces of millennia past. Not that I disagree with your overall point, but I suspect a tiny minority of the architecture and sculpture from millenia past can be rightfully compared with the masterpieces of millenia past. True. Most forgettable architecture has fortunately crumbled to dust;-). Still -- there's more of that from millennia past than one might think. I was walking back from grocery shopping today (my daughter having borrowed my car, I had to walk to the market and back), and I noticed a new display in a familiar courtyard. Finally, over 90 years after the original discoveries, they've built a display showcase of the two major pre-Etruscan necropolises -- San Vitale and Savena -- which were discovered before WW 1, when urbanization was first done on the neighborhood I was born in, the same place I currently live in. About 3000 years ago, with little beyond dried mud (the Bologna region was never rich in anything but clay, as building materials go -- and at that time they didn't fire-bake clay into bricks, not regularly, anyway), and wood long since rotten, some unknown, unsung architects put together a small town for the dead, right below the sidewalks I thread every day. My breath was taken away by finally seeing some of their work on display in its rightful place, my birthplace and residence, as opposed to the museums (several blocks away) where it's generally gathering dust in. Have you heard of Villanova, often named as the birthplace of Italian civilization? That's about 15 km away, where I generally go for major grocery shopping at a hypermarket when I _do_ have a car. San Vitale and Savena were way older, more primitive, more essential -- no jewels of gold and amber to gawp at, yet... the pre-Etruscans, pre-Villanovians, still hadn't managed yet to get in gear with the system of commerce and European- and Mediterranean-wide exhanges which later made Etruria the beacon of arts and culture. Within the constraints of a still rather poor material culture, the necropolises of Savena and San Vitale nevertheless exhibit the kind of limpid, geometric symmetry, spiritual balance, and minimalistic play of emptiness and fullness, that _defines_ worthwhile architecture to my soul... How many more jewels like this one are still buried under the soil of Italy (to name just one place, albeit a rather fecund one for that kind of thing)? Nobody knows -- basically, every time you're excavating something, be it to lay foundations for a warehouse or whatever, among your risks as a developer is that the first few shovelfuls will reveal *yet one more* previously unsuspected architectural and archeological treasure, so that your development will be blocked and stalled for years, decades, while the duly appointed officials salvage all that's there. Why, even when you're restoring an already well-known architectural masterpiece from the Renaissance, you STILL risk finding a well-preserved marble amphitheater from Roman times that the Renaissance architects used as part of their _foundations_... happened downtown in Bologna just over 10 years ago -- and Bologna was a somewhat marginal provincial town 2000 or so years ago: just imagine what it must be like as you move southwards through Tuscany towards the heart of Roman culture in Lazio...! ((Being Italian, I tend to focus on the way things are here -- but I heard the projects to restore the city walls in Instambul, aka Bizantium, came upon exactly the same kinds of problems over the last 20+ years... Italy certainly has no monopoly on having layers upon layers upon layers of great architecture and civilization!)) Then again, millenia past didn't have Frank Gehry (i.e., the Perl of modern architecture). Uhm -- I count the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao among the _successes_ of modern architecture... yes, it IS rich and redundant and wild and self complacent... it _should_ be, much like (say) the Pantheon or Saint Peter's in Rome, or Saint Nicholas in Prague (and other masterpieces of Flaming Baroque, Il Barocco di fiamma)... not ALL great art is minimalistic and spare and understated! _Some_ of the time, an artist manages to overwhelm you with perfect mastery of overflowing richness... like, say, Bach's Matthauspassion's richness, wrt the spareness his Art of the Fugue... all I'm saying is that material or formal constraints can HELP art, not that they're necessarily _indispensable_ to it... Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Alex Martelli wrote: Carl Banks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then again, millenia past didn't have Frank Gehry (i.e., the Perl of modern architecture). Uhm -- I count the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao among the _successes_ of modern architecture... I'll give you the Bilbao Guggenheim, which (at least in the exterior pictures I can find) is a very attractive building, but here in Seattle we must deal with the giant eyesore that is Gehry's Experience Music Project, which (at least to my eyes) looks like a monstrous pile of architectural rubbish. I can appreciate Gehry's attempts to get away from the tyranny of the straight line, and even with the EMP there's certain details which turned out well, but the overall effect is that of an overturned garbage pail. Jeff Shannon Technician/Programmer Credit International -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wouldn't it have been better to define tuples with 's or {}'s or
something else to avoid this confusion??
Well, to comment on the part that nobody else did...
and are binary operators, a la 3 1, one two
and {}'s are clearly already used for dictionaries.
--
Brian Beck
Adventurer of the First Order
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Marius Bernklev wrote: * [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perhaps ()'s are a good idea for some other reason I don't know? One-element tuples are written as (4,). And, even there, the parenthesis is only required when it would otherwise be embiguous: x = 4, x (4,) print 4, 4 regards Steve -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/ Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tuples are defined with regards to parentheses ()'s as everyone knows.
To expand on what Alex Martelli said:
Tuples don't use parentheses except for the special case of the
empty tuple. Those are expression parentheses. The two most
obvious cases of this are in the return statement and sequence
unpacking in assignment statements.
Grouping syntax is used for both unary operators and operands.
Parentheses are used for expressions (operands) and
function/method parameter lists (operators). Brackets ([])
are used for lists (operands) and subscripts/slices (operators).
Braces ({}) are used for dictionarys (operands). They aren't
currently used for unary operators.
John Roth
Please enlighten me as I really want to know.
Chris
P.S. I love Python!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
On 2004-12-29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tuples are defined with regards to parentheses ()'s as everyone knows. Except they're not. x = 1,2,3,4 type(x) type 'tuple' Tuples are defined by the infix comma operator. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'm working under at the direct orders of WAYNE visi.comNEWTON to deport consenting adults! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2004-12-29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tuples are defined with regards to parentheses ()'s as everyone knows. Except they're not. x = 1,2,3,4 type(x) type 'tuple' Tuples are defined by the infix comma operator. Well, the syntax is a little more complicated than that. Commas don't form tuples in a lot of places: f (1, 2, 3)# function call gets three scalar arguments [1, 2, 3] # list of three integers, not list of tuple [x, 1 for x in blah] # syntax error, needs to be [(x, 1) for ...] I'm sure there are others. The meaning of , depends on the context in which it appears. In most cases, the parens around tuples are optional except when necessary to disambiguate, but there's one degenerate special case, the empty tuple (zerople?), where the parens are always required. It's just one of those little warts you have to live with. If Python had originally been invented in a unicode world, I suppose we wouldn't have this problem. We'd just be using guillemots for tuples (and have keyboards which made it easy to type them). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2004-12-29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tuples are defined with regards to parentheses ()'s as everyone knows. Except they're not. x = 1,2,3,4 type(x) type 'tuple' Tuples are defined by the infix comma operator. Well, the syntax is a little more complicated than that. Commas don't form tuples in a lot of places: f (1, 2, 3)# function call gets three scalar arguments [1, 2, 3] # list of three integers, not list of tuple [x, 1 for x in blah] # syntax error, needs to be [(x, 1) for ...] I'm sure there are others. The meaning of , depends on the context in which it appears. This is true, however all three cases you mention are part of the grammar. In any case, the function call syntax isn't dependent on it following a function name; it's dependent on it appearing where an operator is expected in the expression syntax. In most cases, the parens around tuples are optional except when necessary to disambiguate, but there's one degenerate special case, the empty tuple (zerople?), where the parens are always required. It's just one of those little warts you have to live with. That one doesn't require the comma, either. It's a very definite special case. If Python had originally been invented in a unicode world, I suppose we wouldn't have this problem. We'd just be using guillemots for tuples (and have keyboards which made it easy to type them). I suppose the forces of darkness will forever keep Python from requiring utf-8 as the source encoding. If I didn't make a fetish of trying to see the good in everybody's position, I could really work up a dislike of the notion that you should be able to use any old text editor for Python source. There are a lot of Unicode characters that would be quite helpful as operators. A left pointing arrow would be a vast improvement over the equal sign for assignment, for example. There wouldn't be any chance of mixing it up with the double equal for comparisons. The same thing goes for multiplication and division. We've allowed ourselves to be limited by the ASCII character set for so long that improving that seems to be outside of most people's boxes. John Roth -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
John Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If Python had originally been invented in a unicode world, I suppose we
wouldn't have this problem. We'd just be using guillemots for tuples
(and have keyboards which made it easy to type them).
I suppose the forces of darkness will forever keep Python from
requiring utf-8 as the source encoding. If I didn't make a fetish
of trying to see the good in everybody's position, I could really
work up a dislike of the notion that you should be able to use
any old text editor for Python source.
You can't use any old text editor for Python source. You can only use
a hardware/software combination which supports the required character
set (which AFAICT means ASCII, including *both* cases of the alphabet).
You would probably find it difficult to enter Python code on a 029
keypunch, or an ASR-33, or even an IBM-3270.
Granted, those are all dinosaurs these days, but 30 years ago, they
represented the norm. At that time, C was just hitting the streets, and
it was a pain to edit on many systems because it used weird characters
like { and }, which weren't in EBCDIC, or RAD-50, or SIXBIT, or whatever
character set your system used. ASCII was supposed to solve that
nonsense once and for all, except of course for the minor problem that
it didn't let most people in the world spell their names properly (if at
all).
In any case, it's a good thing that Python can be edited with any old
text editor, because that lowers the price of entry. I like emacs, the
next guy likes vi, or vim, or notepad, or whatever. Nothing is keeping
folks who like IDEs from inventing and using them, but I would have been
a lot less likely to experiment with Python the first time if it meant
getting one of them going just so I could run Hello, world.
With google as my witness, I predict that in 30 years from now, ASCII
will be as much a dinosaur as a keypunch is today, and our children and
grandchildren will both wonder how their ancestors ever managed to write
programs without guillemots and be annoyed that they actually have to
type on a keyboard to make the computer understand them.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Roy Smith wrote: John Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If Python had originally been invented in a unicode world, I suppose we wouldn't have this problem. We'd just be using guillemots for tuples (and have keyboards which made it easy to type them). I suppose the forces of darkness will forever keep Python from requiring utf-8 as the source encoding. If I didn't make a fetish of trying to see the good in everybody's position, I could really work up a dislike of the notion that you should be able to use any old text editor for Python source. In any case, it's a good thing that Python can be edited with any old text editor, because that lowers the price of entry. I like emacs, the next guy likes vi, or vim, or notepad, or whatever. Nothing is keeping folks who like IDEs from inventing and using them, but I would have been a lot less likely to experiment with Python the first time if it meant getting one of them going just so I could run Hello, world. Perl6 experiments with the use of guillemots as part of the syntax. I shall be curious to see how this is accepted, of course only if Perl6 is ever going to see the light of day, which is an exciting matter of its own... With google as my witness, I predict that in 30 years from now, ASCII will be as much a dinosaur as a keypunch is today, and our children and grandchildren will both wonder how their ancestors ever managed to write programs without guillemots and be annoyed that they actually have to type on a keyboard to make the computer understand them. Well, it's not clear if they will still write programs... Reinhold -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
On 2004-12-29, Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perl6 experiments with the use of guillemots as part of the syntax. As if Perl didn't look like bird-tracks already... http://www.seabird.org/education/animals/guillemot.html http://www.birdguides.com/html/vidlib/species/Uria_aalge.htm -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! There's enough money at here to buy 5000 cans of visi.comNoodle-Roni! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's? Please enlighten me as I really want to know. So to summarize: Commas define tuples, except when they don't, and parentheses are only required when they are necessary. I hope that clears up any confusion. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Grant Edwards wrote: On 2004-12-29, Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perl6 experiments with the use of guillemots as part of the syntax. As if Perl didn't look like bird-tracks already... http://www.seabird.org/education/animals/guillemot.html http://www.birdguides.com/html/vidlib/species/Uria_aalge.htm Well, (1,1,2,3,5) »+« (1,2,3,5,8); # results in (2,3,5,8,13) (+ being an operator) just isn't something I would like to read in my code... Reinhold -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + being an operator Looks more like a smiley for guy wearing a bowtie -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
On 2004-12-29, Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perl6 experiments with the use of guillemots as part of the syntax. As if Perl didn't look like bird-tracks already... http://www.seabird.org/education/animals/guillemot.html http://www.birdguides.com/html/vidlib/species/Uria_aalge.htm Well, (1,1,2,3,5) »+« (1,2,3,5,8); # results in (2,3,5,8,13) I was pretty sure that « and » were guillmots, but google sure preferred the sea bird when I asked it. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I've been WRITING at to SOPHIA LOREN every 45 visi.comMINUTES since JANUARY 1ST!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
On 29 Dec 2004 21:03:59 GMT, Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2004-12-29, Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perl6 experiments with the use of guillemots as part of the syntax. As if Perl didn't look like bird-tracks already... http://www.seabird.org/education/animals/guillemot.html http://www.birdguides.com/html/vidlib/species/Uria_aalge.htm Well, (1,1,2,3,5) + (1,2,3,5,8); # results in (2,3,5,8,13) I was pretty sure that and were guillmots, but google sure preferred the sea bird when I asked it. They're guillemets (with an e); this is a [relatively] well-known Adobe SNAFU. (A quick google search or two failed to find an authoritative reference, but I know that such references are out there somewhere.) Regards, Dan -- Dan Sommers http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/ Never play leapfrog with a unicorn. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
There just isn't enough neat-looking punctuation in the ASCII character set. Alex I can't thank you enough for your reply and for everyones' great info on this thread. The end of your email gave a rock solid reason why it is impossible to improve upon ()'s for tuples *There simply isn't enough good candidates in ASCII.* Moving to Unicode has pros and cons but your defense of parens assuming ASCII is perfect. Thanks again. Chris -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Brian I am so thankful for your reply and for Alex's and everyone else's on this thread. (See my reply to Alex.) This email may seem minor but it was bugging me for months. You just pointed out what I should have remembered on my own... *'s wouldn't have been a perfect choice because they would have had their own unique gotchas involving accidentally interpreting them as binary shift operators* I really appreciate it. Chris -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Dan Sommers wrote: On 29 Dec 2004 21:03:59 GMT, Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2004-12-29, Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perl6 experiments with the use of guillemots as part of the syntax. As if Perl didn't look like bird-tracks already... http://www.seabird.org/education/animals/guillemot.html http://www.birdguides.com/html/vidlib/species/Uria_aalge.htm Well, (1,1,2,3,5) + (1,2,3,5,8); # results in (2,3,5,8,13) I was pretty sure that and were guillmots, but google sure preferred the sea bird when I asked it. They're guillemets (with an e); this is a [relatively] well-known Adobe SNAFU. (A quick google search or two failed to find an authoritative reference, but I know that such references are out there somewhere.) Regards, Dan Adobe recorded their error in the Red Book errata, but electronic admissions of the same error are apparently impossible to come by. regards Steve -- Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/ Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/ Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + being an operator Looks more like a smiley for guy wearing a bowtie You know Ben Yalow? -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ 19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. --Alan Perlis -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
On 2004-12-29, Dan Sommers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They're guillemets (with an e); this is a [relatively] well-known Adobe SNAFU. Ah. Googling for guillemots punctuation did turn up enough hits that it didn't occur to me that I was using the wrong spelling. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! at TAILFINS!!... click... visi.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + being an operator Looks more like a smiley for guy wearing a bowtie You know Ben Yalow? I once had a physics professor named Aaron Yalow, but I can't say I know any Ben Yalow. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Reinhold Birkenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + being an operator Looks more like a smiley for guy wearing a bowtie You know Ben Yalow? I once had a physics professor named Aaron Yalow, but I can't say I know any Ben Yalow. Heh. Someone in NYC fandom known for wearing a bowtie. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ And fandom of course refers to science fiction fandom -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
Tuples are defined with regards to parentheses ()'s as everyone knows.
This causes confusion for 1 item tuples since (5) can be interpreted
as a tuple OR as the number 5 in a mathematical expression
such as x = (5) * (4+6).
Wouldn't it have been better to define tuples with 's or {}'s or
something else to avoid this confusion??
Perhaps ()'s are a good idea for some other reason I don't know?
Please enlighten me as I really want to know.
Chris
P.S. I love Python!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tuples are defined with regards to parentheses ()'s as everyone knows.
This causes confusion for 1 item tuples since (5) can be interpreted
as a tuple OR as the number 5 in a mathematical expression
such as x = (5) * (4+6).
No, (5) is always the number 5. To make a one-element tuple, use (5,).
Wouldn't it have been better to define tuples with 's or {}'s or
something else to avoid this confusion??
Perhaps ()'s are a good idea for some other reason I don't know?
Actually, for non-empty tuples, the parentheses aren't really necessary,
unless code is ambiguous.
x = 1, 2, 3
x
(1, 2, 3)
y = 5,
y
(5,)
but:
print 8, 9 # not a tuple
8 9
print (8, 9)
(8, 9)
HTH,
--
Hans Nowak
http://zephyrfalcon.org/
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wouldn't it have been better to define tuples with 's or {}'s or
something else to avoid this confusion??
The way I see it, tuples are just a way of having a function return
multiple values at once. When you think of them that way, you don't even
need parenthesis:
def foo():
if we_found_stuff:
return 200, 'long and boring result'
else:
return 404, 'nothing found'
status_code, body = foo()
If foo() only needed to return one value, it would do so in the normal
way, and you wouldn't need to worry about 1-tuples.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perhaps ()'s are a good idea for some other reason I don't know? One-element tuples are written as (4,). -- Marius Bernklev URL: http://www.ping.uio.no/~mariube/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why tuples use parentheses ()'s instead of something else like 's?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tuples are defined with regards to parentheses ()'s as everyone knows.
Well, then, everyone knows wrong:
x = 1, 2, 3
x is a tuple. The _commas_ make it one -- parentheses don't matter.
An _empty_ tuple uses parentheses, (), as there's nowhere to put commas;
and you need parentheses AROUND the tuple-with-commas when the commas by
themselves would be interpreted otherwise (function definition and call,
except clause). But generally, the commas are what mattes.
This causes confusion for 1 item tuples since (5) can be interpreted
as a tuple OR as the number 5 in a mathematical expression
Nah: no commas, no tuple. To set x to a one-item tuple:
x = 5,
feel free to put useless parentheses around the RHS, they don't hurt.
But the comma MUST be there.
Wouldn't it have been better to define tuples with 's or {}'s or
something else to avoid this confusion??
Instead of commas? I think it would look weird.
Perhaps ()'s are a good idea for some other reason I don't know?
They're somewhat overloaded, and so are commas. There just isn't enough
neat-looking punctuation in the ASCII character set.
Alex
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
