Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Xah Lee wrote in 2006-12-22: > Of Interest: > > Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing > http://xahlee.org/3d/index.html Folks, i have expanded my tutorial to several pages in the past nearly two months, and thank you very much for those who have given encouragement. I had plans to write pages that actually contained Python or Perl and elisp code to demonstrate the mingled use of common languages with POV-RAY and other tools for doing algorithmic mathematical art... However, i'm posting now for one in-credible discovery that amazed me, and believe it is a revolutionary both with respect to technology, as well as its social impact. Following is my brief introduction. The web version is at: Introduction to Second Life http://xahlee.org/sl/sl.html --- Introduction to Second Life Xah Lee, 2007-01-09 above: A screenshot of a location in Second Life. This place is called “The Future”, it is a place built by Henry Segerman ↗ built. Second Life is a online virtual world with 2 million accounts as of 2006-12, and reportedly 10 thousand users logged in at any moment. Basically, you operate a software that is a 3D world much like 3D games, but everything in the “game” is built by users, and you can interact with other users, including buying and selling virtual land with real money. What people do inside Second Life is entirely up to them (as in real life). And, as it happens, what people do mostly in Second Life are pretty much what people do in real life. The major activities are: sex, shopping, socializing, dancing. My mathematician friend Henry Segerman introduced me to 2nd life. (also because it appeared in Time Mag in 2006-12.) Henry has a 2nd life page that contains many math objects made in Second Life: http://www.stanford.edu/~segerman/2ndlife.html. Part of my interest in Second Life is to build geometric models. (See Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing) I have for the past couple years sought for a software platform/system where i can build 3D objects, with abilities to do interactive adjustment (such as moving a slide to change a surface's parameter), dynamic rotation (viewing from different angles), animations (such as morphing that shows geometric processes), and most of all, walk-thru in it as if it is a building. As far as my experiences goes, no software platform for 3D graphics are close to the ideal of what i need to do. They lack one feature or the other, or otherwise requires the programer to be a specialist with years of dedication in learning the tool. For example, Mathematica↗ has great collection of math functions but no dynamic graphics. POV-RAY↗ and 3D-modelers like AutoCAD↗ can do great in building 3D objects but they are not designed for interactivity, animations, or walk-thru. Java the programming language↗ allows one to write applets that does rotation and interactive manipulation but programing in Java is extremely unnecessarily complex and yet it is still not possible to do walk-thrus. The one class of platform that does all these, is 3D game engines. But alas, they take a dedicated game programing specialist to be able to use it. Second Life changed all this. (Note: Just for completness, my requirement for a 3D-graphics programing software system is this: • easy to use for average programers or scientists. • Easy to build geometry models, such as basic shapes like spheres and blocks, as well as surfaces or meshes of triangles. • designed for interactivity. That is, the programer can easily build buttons and sliders that changes parameters and have the object reflect these changes visually right away. • the user can easily change viewing angles or rotate the object. • The programer can easily do animations. For example, morph a sphere into a cube, or a bunch of spheres flying in space as a swarm of flies. • The ability to do walk-thru (or fly-thru). For example, if i build a fancy 3D-maze or architecture, i should be able to — say — become a ant, and walk inside the object, so as to view the object from inside and as well as getting the real experience of perceiving such a building. (Before my discover of Second Life, the platform that i was considering nearly ideal and preparing to learn, are VPython↗ and Macromedia Flash↗ (i do still plan to learn these technologies) )) Second Life is not just the answer to my mathematical fantasies, but because of its Real-World nature, being run and build by real people, and with scarily real money market of the virtual dollars it uses, is nothing but a technological revolution with great social impact. It is essentially the virtual-3D-world-wide-web dream of VRML↗ envisioned around 1995. Anshe Chung↗ is famouly known for being the first to become a (real world) millionaire by selling entirely virtual items and virtual services inside Second Life. For a encyclopedic introduction, see: Second Life↗ Here are some articles about Second Life. (note that there are a lot linked at the bottom of the Wikipedia article.) * Time
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > And the core folks around the project are either science educators or > Python folks - there is little C++ expertise currently involved with > the project. > > The project is looking for help. > > Anyone willing to jump in should perhaps reply here or at: [snip address] I see lots of mentions of C++ and Python, but not Java, so suggesting that anyone reply "here" (i.e. comp.lang.java.programmer) seems questionable to me. And what the hell is wrong with my goddam newsserver? Again it complained that a header was missing (which either should have been there to start with or not been an error) and then when I added it that the message was a duplicate (it was a duplicate only if the previous try had succeeded, but it claimed the previous try had failed). I'm thinking of ditching aioe. Anyone know of any other public, free newsservers that permit posting as well as reading? A whole lot of Web research has failed to turn up any besides aioe. Mind you, I found a lot of high quality free ones that permit reading only (some with binaries! not that I need 'em) and at least one that calls itself "free" and says it permits posting but actually charges an "account setup fee" -- where are truth in advertising laws when you need them? "Free" doesn't mean "No monthly payments" or "No recurring payments", it means FREE, as in NO PAYMENTS AT ALL, MORONS ... :P -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Xah Lee wrote: > I don't know OpenGL, but i think it is a low-level crap, and have done > the industry huge irreparable damage the same way unix has. So you _are_ psychic ! is the end of the world be in 2007 ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Xah Lee wrote: > Here's their license: > http://www.vpython.org/webdoc/visual/license.txt > > I read it wrong before. > Thanks for correction. > > This is superb! I'll be looking into vpython! > > Xah Of course it does what it does by resort to OpenGL and C++, so is part of the problem ;) I am looking forward to your tutorial efforts, and hoping those efforts can be accessed without exposure to too much polemics. Though if that is the price of admission, that is the price of admission. BTW, VPython is most of the way through a 4.xxx release which provides some nice additional functionality to the 3.xx series core - like transparency and texturing. Problem being the the lead developer has graduated and moved on, and the NSF funding that had supported the effort has run out. And the core folks around the project are either science educators or Python folks - there is little C++ expertise currently involved with the project. The project is looking for help. Anyone willing to jump in should perhaps reply here or at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Art -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Here's their license: http://www.vpython.org/webdoc/visual/license.txt I read it wrong before. Thanks for correction. This is superb! I'll be looking into vpython! Xah Ravi Teja wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: > > > Regarding VisualPython... i saw a demo in 2002 by a professor > > friend. I think it is good. Though, why is its licensing not GPL or > > otherwise Open Source? That's kinda odd since Pyhton is. > > You are confusing VPython with Activestate's Visual Python IDE plugin > for Visual Studio. > >From VPython's home page in very bold font - "VPython is free and > open-source" > http://www.vpython.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
["Followup-To:" header set, but it's best not to followup at all.] On 2006-12-27, Raff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: >> I don't know OpenGL, but i think it is a low-level crap, and have done ^^^ >> the industry huge irreparable damage the same way unix has. > > OpenGL is low level, that's right, but it is not crap. Whether it is or not, Xah doesn't know and doesn't care, as he is a troll (and anyone who would say "I don't know X but it's crap" is definitely either clueless or trolling). Please don't pay attention to his rants. --keith -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (try just my userid to email me) AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt see X- headers for PGP signature information -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Xah Lee wrote: > Regarding VisualPython... i saw a demo in 2002 by a professor > friend. I think it is good. Though, why is its licensing not GPL or > otherwise Open Source? That's kinda odd since Pyhton is. You are confusing VPython with Activestate's Visual Python IDE plugin for Visual Studio. >From VPython's home page in very bold font - "VPython is free and open-source" http://www.vpython.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Xah Lee wrote: > Dear Jon Harrop, > > Thanks for the informative reply. > > I don't know OpenGL, but i think it is a low-level crap, and have done > the industry huge irreparable damage the same way unix has. OpenGL is low level, that's right, but it is not crap. OpenGL is hardware independent, and is a true multiplatform standard. The difference between OpenGL and higher level libraries, like OpenInventor, it is similar to the difference between a low-level programming language like C and a higher level object-oriented language, IMHO. > I don't particular know OpenGL > as a low-level graphic system is a good one or not. (but it is probably > correct to assume that Microsoft's Direct3D is far more better designed > system at the same level) > Direct3D it is lower level than OpenGL, and usually needs more instructions than OpenGL to do the same things. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Dear Jon Harrop,
Thanks for the informative reply.
I don't know OpenGL, but i think it is a low-level crap, and have done
the industry huge irreparable damage the same way unix has.
This wikipedia excerpt from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickDraw_3D
summarize my sentiment:
«Most 3D toolkits concentrate on the lowest levels of the 3D rendering
pipeline...
For instance, the OpenGL system consists primarily of a system for
describing geometry in various ways...
Higher-level concepts of the 3D world are generally not included in
low-level libraries...
To add to the problems, OpenGL was not truly low-level..
»
Note this:
«
TODAY THERE REMAINS NO STANDARD HIGH-LEVEL API FOR 3D GRAPHICS. Several
attempts have been made, including OpenGL++ and the SGI/Microsoft
Fahrenheit graphics API, but none of these have made it to production.
»
--
As a practical example of its low-level problem, i looked at your basic
OpenGL tutorial, the minimal program
(http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/visualisation/):
let () =
let argv' = Glut.init Sys.argv in
ignore (Glut.createWindow ~title:"OpenGL Demo");
GlClear.color (0.1, 0.3, 0.1);
Glut.displayFunc ~cb:(fun () -> GlClear.clear [ `color ]; Gl.flush
());
Glut.mainLoop ()
Immediately, a extremely intelligent alien who understand advanced
programing and geometry in 3D and higher dimensions, but who is not
familiar with OpenGL per se, would be facing 6 lines, almost all of it
are irrelevant to geometry or the mathematics of programing,
but are extraneous concepts created by the system itself . (the
exceptions are the “color”, and “clear”)
This is in contrast to the Mathematica system or its graphics. For
example:
http://xahlee.org/3d/mma.html e.g.
Graphics3D[{
Cuboid[{0, 0, 0}],
Point[{1.5, 1.5,0}],
Polygon[{{2, 2, 1}, {2, 1, 1}, {1, 2, 1}}]
}]
Even if you don't know nothing about Mathematica or never coded a
single line of 3d graphics application, the lines above are all very
meaningful, as they are inalienable concepts of geometry, not something
extraneous as most imperative languages or systems or unix forces upon
its users.
Note that the above sentiment about OpenGL, is just my sentiment on the
overall situation of graphics programing. (and in general the low-level
garbage situation applies to almost all imperative languages and vast
majority of protocols in the industry.) I don't particular know OpenGL
as a low-level graphic system is a good one or not. (but it is probably
correct to assume that Microsoft's Direct3D is far more better designed
system at the same level)
Regarding VisualPython... i saw a demo in 2002 by a professor
friend. I think it is good. Though, why is its licensing not GPL or
otherwise Open Source? That's kinda odd since Pyhton is.
Thanks for your links and tutorials. I find them useful.
What i'm looking for, is a system that allows one to easily to graphics
programing. By graphics programing, i mean 3d geometric shapes
manipulation, as opposed to rendering or implementing CAD systems or
how to write photoshop filters or the science of realistic rendering
etc as most people are thinking of when hearing the term computer
graphics programing.
So far as i know, Mathematica is the platform that allows one to do
graphics programing. But, i think Flash probably is another platform
that does it. And i think VisualPython is also.
I'm interested in other platforms that allows one to do this.
Xah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
∑ http://xahlee.org/
Jon Harrop wrote:
> Xah Lee wrote:
> > Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
> > http://xahlee.org/3d/index.html
>
> You will probably find it more rewarding to use a more modern graphics
> system, such as OpenGL or DirectX, with a suitable programming language
> rather than Mathematica's. I would recommend any of OCaml, F#, Haskell,
> Lisp, Scheme, Python or Ruby for graphics, you can do much more
> sophisticated, animated, real time visualisations than you can with
> Mathematica's primitives.
>
> There are lots of great web pages out there. I've written some 2D and 3D
> graphics examples in OCaml:
>
> http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/visualisation
> http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/ray_tracer
> http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/fractal
> http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/maze
>
> and more recently F#:
>
> http://www.ffconsultancy.com/dotnet/fsharp
>
> I was very impressed with the tutorial videos on VPython at ShowMeDo:
>
> http://showmedo.com/videos/series?name=pythonThompsonVPythonSeries
>
> For an introduction to OpenGL, look no further than the NeHe tutorials at
> GameDev:
>
> http://nehe.gamedev.net
>
> One of our future products at FF Consultancy is a suite of extensions for
> the F# interactive mode that allows you to visualise 2D and 3D graphics in
> real time with simplicity rivalling Mathematica but the sophistication and
> performance of DirectX, whilst also having the power of t
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Boris Borcic wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: >> Of Interest: > > to which of comp.lang.perl.misc, comp.lang.python, comp.lang.lisp, > comp.lang.java.programmer, comp.lang.functional ? You must be new. Otherwise you would be familiar with this troll already. jue -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Xah Lee wrote: > Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing > http://xahlee.org/3d/index.html You will probably find it more rewarding to use a more modern graphics system, such as OpenGL or DirectX, with a suitable programming language rather than Mathematica's. I would recommend any of OCaml, F#, Haskell, Lisp, Scheme, Python or Ruby for graphics, you can do much more sophisticated, animated, real time visualisations than you can with Mathematica's primitives. There are lots of great web pages out there. I've written some 2D and 3D graphics examples in OCaml: http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/visualisation http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/ray_tracer http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/fractal http://www.ffconsultancy.com/free/maze and more recently F#: http://www.ffconsultancy.com/dotnet/fsharp I was very impressed with the tutorial videos on VPython at ShowMeDo: http://showmedo.com/videos/series?name=pythonThompsonVPythonSeries For an introduction to OpenGL, look no further than the NeHe tutorials at GameDev: http://nehe.gamedev.net One of our future products at FF Consultancy is a suite of extensions for the F# interactive mode that allows you to visualise 2D and 3D graphics in real time with simplicity rivalling Mathematica but the sophistication and performance of DirectX, whilst also having the power of the F# programming language and .NET to analyse your data. -- Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Objective CAML for Scientists http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/index.html?usenet -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Xah Lee wrote: > Of Interest: to which of comp.lang.perl.misc, comp.lang.python, comp.lang.lisp, comp.lang.java.programmer, comp.lang.functional ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Xah's Edu Corner: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing
Of Interest: Introduction to 3D Graphics Programing http://xahlee.org/3d/index.html Currently, this introduction introduces you to the graphics format of Mathematica, and two Java Applet utilities that allows you to view them with live rotation in a web browser. Also, it includes a introductory tutorial to POV-Ray. Once you understand any one of these pages, you can use your favorite programing language to start doing 3D Graphics Programing. In the coming months, i will also introduce the .obj format that are used by many geometric modeling programs. And, a tutorial on how to use Python (or Perl, lisp) to do 3D Graphics programing, by setting up functions that spits out any of 3D-Geometry Formats (such as Mathematica Graphics or POV-Ray or .inc). These are the imminent plans for the coming weeks. Other potential subjects are introduction or tutorials on various utilities or programing lang libraries that does conversion between different 3D graphics formats, dedicated tutorial on how to generate mathematical surfaces, more elaborate study on POV-Ray's abilities and sample cases, etc. The focus of these pages, will be 3D-Graphics programing with the goal of Algorithmic Mathematical Art. (see http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t1/20040113_cmaci_larcu.html ) In particular, we focus on creating geometric objects and their arrangement that are esthetic in a mathematical way. (for example, regular tilings in 3D, nested structures in 3D, symmetric structures in 3D, elaborate 3D maze tunnels, beehive sculpting, regular polyhedrons and their decorations, projection and slices of higher dimensional symmetries, 3D-manifolds ... etc.) This mathematical esthetic is opposed to, for example, rendering techniques or technologies (e.g. fogs, sceneries, fast algorithms...etc) that are quite common in computer graphics literatures. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
