Re: game engine (as in rules not graphics)
On Dec 29 2008, 8:52 am, Aaron Brady castiro...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 29, 4:14 am, Martin mar...@marcher.name wrote: Hi, 2008/12/29 Phil Runciman ph...@aspexconsulting.co.nz: See: Chris Moss, Prolog++: The Power of Object-Oriented and Logic Programming (ISBN 0201565072) This book is a pretty handy intro to an OO version Prolog produced by Logic Programming Associates. From: Aaron Brady [mailto:castiro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2008 1:22 p.m. Not my expertise but here are my $0.02. You are looking for ways to represent rules: buying a house is legal in such and such situation, and the formula for calculating its price is something. You want predicates such as InJail, OwnedBy, Costs. Costs( New York Ave, 200 ) InJail( player2 ) OwnedBy( St. Charles Ave, player4 ) LegalMove( rolldie ) LegalMove( sellhouse ) I'm not sure I'm looking for prolog, i had an introductory course back at the university but it didn't exactly like it. I'm after some info how such rules would defined in python (specifically python althou logic programming is probably the more appropriate way). I guess I'm missing quite some basics in the design of such concepts, I'll head back to google to find some introductory stuff now :). snip It depends on what you want to do with it. Do you want to answer a question about whether something is legal? Do you want a catalog of legal moves? Do you want to forward-chain moves to a state? Do you want just a representation for its own sake? For instance, the game just started. Player 1 landed on Oriental, bought it, and Player 2 landed in the same place. Here are the legal possibilities. Player 1 offers to sell Oriental to Player X. Player X offers to buy Oriental from Player 1. Player 1 mortgages Oriental. Player 1 collects rent from Player 2. Player 3 rolls dice. Thinking aloud, I think the closest thing to predicates you'll have in Python is to build a Relation class or use a relational database. Some tables you might use are: Property( id, name, price, rent0houses, rent1house, ..., numhouses, mortgaged, owner ). Player( id, location, money ). LastMove( player.id ). P.S. There is 'pyprolog' on sourceforge; I did not check it out. You know what I am thinking for this-- not that the OP is still around-- is a regular expression / BNF grammar that transitions on moves from one legal set of moves to the next. It will need some sort of concatenation structure, since late in the game, selling each property a player has is a legal move. Sorry for the replies to myself. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: game engine (as in rules not graphics)
Hi, 2008/12/29 Phil Runciman ph...@aspexconsulting.co.nz: See: Chris Moss, Prolog++: The Power of Object-Oriented and Logic Programming (ISBN 0201565072) This book is a pretty handy intro to an OO version Prolog produced by Logic Programming Associates. From: Aaron Brady [mailto:castiro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2008 1:22 p.m. Not my expertise but here are my $0.02. You are looking for ways to represent rules: buying a house is legal in such and such situation, and the formula for calculating its price is something. You want predicates such as InJail, OwnedBy, Costs. Costs( New York Ave, 200 ) InJail( player2 ) OwnedBy( St. Charles Ave, player4 ) LegalMove( rolldie ) LegalMove( sellhouse ) I'm not sure I'm looking for prolog, i had an introductory course back at the university but it didn't exactly like it. I'm after some info how such rules would defined in python (specifically python althou logic programming is probably the more appropriate way). I guess I'm missing quite some basics in the design of such concepts, I'll head back to google to find some introductory stuff now :). regards, Martin -- http://soup.alt.delete.co.at http://www.xing.com/profile/Martin_Marcher http://www.linkedin.com/in/martinmarcher You are not free to read this message, by doing so, you have violated my licence and are required to urinate publicly. Thank you. Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: game engine (as in rules not graphics)
On Dec 29, 4:14 am, Martin mar...@marcher.name wrote: Hi, 2008/12/29 Phil Runciman ph...@aspexconsulting.co.nz: See: Chris Moss, Prolog++: The Power of Object-Oriented and Logic Programming (ISBN 0201565072) This book is a pretty handy intro to an OO version Prolog produced by Logic Programming Associates. From: Aaron Brady [mailto:castiro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2008 1:22 p.m. Not my expertise but here are my $0.02. You are looking for ways to represent rules: buying a house is legal in such and such situation, and the formula for calculating its price is something. You want predicates such as InJail, OwnedBy, Costs. Costs( New York Ave, 200 ) InJail( player2 ) OwnedBy( St. Charles Ave, player4 ) LegalMove( rolldie ) LegalMove( sellhouse ) I'm not sure I'm looking for prolog, i had an introductory course back at the university but it didn't exactly like it. I'm after some info how such rules would defined in python (specifically python althou logic programming is probably the more appropriate way). I guess I'm missing quite some basics in the design of such concepts, I'll head back to google to find some introductory stuff now :). snip It depends on what you want to do with it. Do you want to answer a question about whether something is legal? Do you want a catalog of legal moves? Do you want to forward-chain moves to a state? Do you want just a representation for its own sake? For instance, the game just started. Player 1 landed on Oriental, bought it, and Player 2 landed in the same place. Here are the legal possibilities. Player 1 offers to sell Oriental to Player X. Player X offers to buy Oriental from Player 1. Player 1 mortgages Oriental. Player 1 collects rent from Player 2. Player 3 rolls dice. Thinking aloud, I think the closest thing to predicates you'll have in Python is to build a Relation class or use a relational database. Some tables you might use are: Property( id, name, price, rent0houses, rent1house, ..., numhouses, mortgaged, owner ). Player( id, location, money ). LastMove( player.id ). P.S. There is 'pyprolog' on sourceforge; I did not check it out. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: game engine (as in rules not graphics)
See: Chris Moss, Prolog++: The Power of Object-Oriented and Logic Programming (ISBN 0201565072) This book is a pretty handy intro to an OO version Prolog produced by Logic Programming Associates. Prolog is a wonderful tool for such things as working out a factory layout for new car production or for creating an expert system for choosing antibiotics for treating a condition. It has even been used for helping producing immigration legislation and then for providing a system for checking eligibility (other than can you survive in a desert and get through barbed wire!) One person used is to teach primary school children English grammar. The children created their own grammar rules and checked them out using Prolog. Their understanding of english grammar exceeded many university graduates after this exercise. (Google Dr. Richard Ennals). FWIW. Declaration of interest: Chris Moss is my wife's first cousin. -Original Message- From: Aaron Brady [mailto:castiro...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2008 1:22 p.m. To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: game engine (as in rules not graphics) On Dec 27, 3:02 pm, Martin mar...@marcher.name wrote: Hello, I'd like to get in touch with game development a bit. I'm not talking about graphics but rather the game rules itself. Something likehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_(game)#Rules, is there even a general approach to that or should I just go sketch up my rules and try to implement them. Being totally new to this topic I don't quite now what to search for to get some decent results that let me make a mental link between game rules and what the best practices are to implement them in python (or any other programming language) thanks, martin Not my expertise but here are my $0.02. You are looking for ways to represent rules: buying a house is legal in such and such situation, and the formula for calculating its price is something. You want predicates such as InJail, OwnedBy, Costs. Costs( New York Ave, 200 ) InJail( player2 ) OwnedBy( St. Charles Ave, player4 ) LegalMove( rolldie ) LegalMove( sellhouse ) There are rule-based languages out there, such as Prolog. They are equally expressive as Python (you can write a Turing machine in them), but they are more convenient for representing rules in a prog. language. Predicates are more or less equivalent to positive assertions about something. NewYorkAve.cost= 200 player2.injail= True... rolldie.islegal= True Some predicates have to be calculated, rather than stored, but Python descriptors go easy on you for that. Someone else will have to tell you how rule-based programming measures up against object-oriented programming. passes mic. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
[OT] game engine (as in rules not graphics)
Hello, I'd like to get in touch with game development a bit. I'm not talking about graphics but rather the game rules itself. Something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_(game)#Rules, is there even a general approach to that or should I just go sketch up my rules and try to implement them. Being totally new to this topic I don't quite now what to search for to get some decent results that let me make a mental link between game rules and what the best practices are to implement them in python (or any other programming language) thanks, martin -- http://soup.alt.delete.co.at http://www.xing.com/profile/Martin_Marcher http://www.linkedin.com/in/martinmarcher You are not free to read this message, by doing so, you have violated my licence and are required to urinate publicly. Thank you. Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: game engine (as in rules not graphics)
On Dec 27, 3:02 pm, Martin mar...@marcher.name wrote: Hello, I'd like to get in touch with game development a bit. I'm not talking about graphics but rather the game rules itself. Something likehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_(game)#Rules, is there even a general approach to that or should I just go sketch up my rules and try to implement them. Being totally new to this topic I don't quite now what to search for to get some decent results that let me make a mental link between game rules and what the best practices are to implement them in python (or any other programming language) thanks, martin Not my expertise but here are my $0.02. You are looking for ways to represent rules: buying a house is legal in such and such situation, and the formula for calculating its price is something. You want predicates such as InJail, OwnedBy, Costs. Costs( New York Ave, 200 ) InJail( player2 ) OwnedBy( St. Charles Ave, player4 ) LegalMove( rolldie ) LegalMove( sellhouse ) There are rule-based languages out there, such as Prolog. They are equally expressive as Python (you can write a Turing machine in them), but they are more convenient for representing rules in a prog. language. Predicates are more or less equivalent to positive assertions about something. NewYorkAve.cost= 200 player2.injail= True... rolldie.islegal= True Some predicates have to be calculated, rather than stored, but Python descriptors go easy on you for that. Someone else will have to tell you how rule-based programming measures up against object-oriented programming. passes mic. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
