Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2018-03-27, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> Any time you see something that requires JavaScript for this, you know
> you've found a web site that dates back to... uhh, actually I don't
> know. I only have versioning info on MDN back as far as HTML 4.01 ergo
> 1999, and the placeholder attribute is there. Of course, that doesn't
> mean everyone *used* it, but it was certainly available.

'placeholder' was most certainly not in HTML 4 - it was an HTML 5
addition (i.e. it was standardised in 2014). Browser support arrived
mainly in 2011/2012, so if a web site is 5 years old it probably could
not have relied on this feature.
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

Quick note: we've implemented the fix Terry Jan Reedy suggested
regarding window width and filters to fix
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/3454 , so thank you to everyone
who helped us nail this down.

The next IRC/Twitter livechat hour with PyPI maintainers is Tuesday,
April 3rd at 15:00 UTC
https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2018/03/warehouse-all-new-pypi-is-now-in-beta.html#livechat
, and if any of you are going to be at PyCon North America in Cleveland
in May, consider joining us for the packaging sprints:
https://wiki.python.org/psf/PackagingSprints

And:

On 03/30/2018 11:03 AM, Paul Moore wrote:
> On 30 March 2018 at 14:38, William Ray Wing  wrote:
>> Sumana, I want to be sure we aren’t just talking past each other.  I notice 
>> that the URL you seem to always reference is:
>>
>> https://pypi.org/search/
>>
>> and if I go there, I get the filter list immediately.  The place I don’t see 
>> it is the home page:
>>
>> https://pypi.org/
>>
>> where I’m invited to “Search” or “Browse”, but where there is no filter 
>> list.  The filter list only appears after I’ve performed my first search.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
> 
> That's the same behaviour as the existing PyPI. There's a "search" box
> on the main page, and a "Browse" link on that page that takes you to a
> separate page that lets you select packages by category. I don't see
> this as a problem with the new PyPI - far from it, I wouldn't want the
> main page cluttered with category filters, if I need then I'll go to
> the dedicated browse page.
> 
> Just my 2p worth...
> Paul

Thanks for clarifying, Bill! Yes, I thought you were talking about the
dedicated search page, and now I see what you mean. And thanks for your
thoughts on this, Paul. I wonder whether some lookahead search that
includes suggested facets (specifically, classifiers) springing up as
you type would help? I've updated
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/3462 accordingly.

-- 
Sumana Harihareswara
Warehouse project manager
Changeset Consulting
https://changeset.nyc
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Paul Moore]

On 30 March 2018 at 14:38, William Ray Wing  wrote:
> Sumana, I want to be sure we aren’t just talking past each other.  I notice 
> that the URL you seem to always reference is:
>
> https://pypi.org/search/
>
> and if I go there, I get the filter list immediately.  The place I don’t see 
> it is the home page:
>
> https://pypi.org/
>
> where I’m invited to “Search” or “Browse”, but where there is no filter list. 
>  The filter list only appears after I’ve performed my first search.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill

That's the same behaviour as the existing PyPI. There's a "search" box
on the main page, and a "Browse" link on that page that takes you to a
separate page that lets you select packages by category. I don't see
this as a problem with the new PyPI - far from it, I wouldn't want the
main page cluttered with category filters, if I need then I'll go to
the dedicated browse page.

Just my 2p worth...
Paul
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[William Ray Wing]

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 10:50 AM, sumana.hariharesw...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 

[byte]


> : I ask you the usual list of troubleshooting questions. What OS and browser 
> are you using, what plugins and particularly interesting preferences are you 
> using, and so on. (When I turn off JavaScript in my browser, I see a list of 
> clickable category headings like "By Programming Language" but clicking on 
> them causes no response.) A screenshot in an issue at 
> https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues would be helpful. (Reminder that 
> participating in Warehouse development, including by filing an issue, 
> requires abiding by the PyPA Code of Conduct 
> https://www.pypa.io/en/latest/code-of-conduct/ .)
> 

Sumana, I want to be sure we aren’t just talking past each other.  I notice 
that the URL you seem to always reference is: 

https://pypi.org/search/

and if I go there, I get the filter list immediately.  The place I don’t see it 
is the home page:

https://pypi.org/

where I’m invited to “Search” or “Browse”, but where there is no filter list.  
The filter list only appears after I’ve performed my first search.

Thanks,
Bill


> -Sumana Harihareswara
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Ethan Furman]

On 03/29/2018 11:55 AM, Bill Deegan wrote:

Re color.
Would the python.org  background color (which is darker) 
work?
To my eyes the background on pypi looks like the highlight color on python.org 

(I've said this earlier, but just curious if that's what others see as well)


The python.org color scheme is tolerable.  ;)

--
~Ethan~

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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Bill Deegan]

Re color.
Would the python.org background color (which is darker) work?
To my eyes the background on pypi looks like the highlight color on
python.org
(I've said this earlier, but just curious if that's what others see as well)


On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Ethan Furman  wrote:

> On 03/29/2018 11:01 AM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:48:52 AM UTC-4, Ethan Furman wrote:
>>
>
> The new PyPI lists of projects wastes too much space, and the bright blue
>>>
>> >> is intolerable.  I can't use it.
>
>>
>> When you say the bright blue is intolerable, I presume it hurts your eyes
>>
> > -- is that right?
>
> That is correct.
>
> Color calibration varies across monitors, some people are sensitive to
>>
> > certain shades of light, etc., so I want to let the designer know more,
> > and ask about it in user testing.
>
> For me it's a matter of brightness; bright colors should be used as
> accents, not as the main course.
> (IMHO, of course ;)
>
> You probably know that, in a real pinch, you can turn off styling entirely
>>
> > for a site in your browser, but I would prefer that you not have to do
> that.
>
> I am vaguely aware of that, but my typical response to such web sites is
> to not use them.
>
> Are the little boxes replaceable by the package authors?  That would be
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>
>> I think you're talking about https://github.com/pypa/wareho
>> use/issues/2211 -
>>
> > if/when we implement that, project logo images could show up on the
> project
> > detail pages, and in search results and similar listings, instead of the
> > white cube.
>
> Cool, looking forward to it!
>
>
> --
> ~Ethan~
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Ethan Furman]

On 03/29/2018 11:01 AM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:48:52 AM UTC-4, Ethan Furman wrote:



The new PyPI lists of projects wastes too much space, and the bright blue

>> is intolerable.  I can't use it.


When you say the bright blue is intolerable, I presume it hurts your eyes

> -- is that right?

That is correct.


Color calibration varies across monitors, some people are sensitive to

> certain shades of light, etc., so I want to let the designer know more,
> and ask about it in user testing.

For me it's a matter of brightness; bright colors should be used as accents, 
not as the main course.
(IMHO, of course ;)


You probably know that, in a real pinch, you can turn off styling entirely

> for a site in your browser, but I would prefer that you not have to do that.

I am vaguely aware of that, but my typical response to such web sites is to not 
use them.


Are the little boxes replaceable by the package authors?  That would be
interesting.


I think you're talking about https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/2211 -

> if/when we implement that, project logo images could show up on the project
> detail pages, and in search results and similar listings, instead of the
> white cube.

Cool, looking forward to it!

--
~Ethan~
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:48:52 AM UTC-4, Ethan Furman wrote:
> The new PyPI lists of projects wastes too much space, and the bright blue is 
> intolerable.  I can't use it.

As I think you know, I'm tracking the condensed view request in 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/1988 .

When you say the bright blue is intolerable, I presume it hurts your eyes -- is 
that right? Color calibration varies across monitors, some people are sensitive 
to certain shades of light, etc., so I want to let the designer know more, and 
ask about it in user testing. You probably know that, in a real pinch, you can 
turn off styling entirely for a site in your browser, but I would prefer that 
you not have to do that.

> Are the little boxes replaceable by the package authors?  That would be 
> interesting.
> 
> --
> ~Ethan~

I think you're talking about https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/2211 - 
if/when we implement that, project logo images could show up on the project 
detail pages, and in search results and similar listings, instead of the white 
cube.

-Sumana Harihareswara
Warehouse project manager
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Ethan Furman]

On 03/29/2018 09:01 AM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:


I appreciate you sharing your assessment. Thank you. I've filed [...snip 
details...]


Wow.  Thanks for all the confirmations of feedback received and issues created, Sumana!  I wish the big companies had 
user support this good.  :)


--
~Ethan~
--
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:28:12 PM UTC-4, Ian wrote:
> For me, the category filters alone are a killer feature over the old
> PyPI. I think it's also a plus to the Python community overall that
> PyPI not look to newcomers like something that was designed in the 90s
> and then abandoned.

Thank you! I am a fan of the category filters, too. And we've been hearing that 
sentiment (about the modern look) quite a bit.

> I agree with Steven about the unnecessary boxes around every single
> package, though. The presentation of the list of packages could be
> *much* denser while keeping the same readability, which would also
> make the page more usable by reducing the amount of scrolling needed.

I appreciate you sharing your experience. I'm linking to it in 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/1988#issuecomment-377280770 . The more 
condensed view is something I'm asking volunteers for help with and I'm 
prioritizing it for post-launch work.

-Sumana Harihareswara
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 4:47:42 PM UTC-4, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 3/28/2018 10:50 AM, sumana.hariharesw...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > People who literally don't see the list of ways to filter on the left-hand 
> > side of https://pypi.org/search/ : I ask you the usual list of 
> > troubleshooting questions. What OS and browser are you using, what plugins 
> > and particularly interesting preferences are you using, and so on. (When I 
> > turn off JavaScript in my browser, I see a list of clickable category 
> > headings like "By Programming Language" but clicking on them causes no 
> > response.) A screenshot in an issue at 
> > https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues would be helpful. (Reminder that 
> > participating in Warehouse development, including by filing an issue, 
> > requires abiding by the PyPA Code of Conduct 
> > https://www.pypa.io/en/latest/code-of-conduct/ .)
> 
> This is a window width issue.  Full screen (on my monitor), the 
> categories work fine, and clicking on them appears to work.  When I 
> narrow the browser window to about 1100 pixels, the category list 'to 
> the left' disappears and is replaced by an [Add filter] box.  When this 
> happens, "from the list of classifiers on the left." should be replaced 
> by "by clicking the button below."

Thank you so much for the detailed report, and the suggestion! Thanks also to 
another user who emailed me off-list to give me a detailed report of the 
problem in multiple browsers. I've updated 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/3454#issuecomment-377207553 
accordingly.

>  >I recognize that many users want a more condensed view on many 
> pypi.org pages,
> 
> I consider reducing the search results from 60 to 10 per page to be 
> unacceptable and disrespectful of me as a user.
> 
> -- 
> Terry Jan Reedy

I appreciate you sharing your assessment. Thank you. I've filed 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/3463 where I suggest we provide a 
widget on search results pages that allows the user to change the detault 
number of results in result pagination, e.g., "10 [default]/25/50/100/all". If 
that wouldn't address your concern, please let me know, here, via email, or on 
GitHub.

Sumana Harihareswara
Warehouse project manager
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 9:36:56 AM UTC-4, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 03/26/2018 03:16 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
> 
> > The new Python Package Index at https://pypi.org is now in beta.
> 
> The banner says:
> 
> --> This is a beta deployment of Warehouse. Changes made here affect the 
> production instance of PyPI (pypi.python.org).
> 
> Why is a beta instance affecting the production instance?
> 
> --
> ~Ethan~

The short answer is that pypi.org has to share data with pypi.python.org to 
provide people with a smooth migration path, and that test.pypi.org is 
available for users who want to try Warehouse without affecting production data.

And I recognize that the word "beta" implies different levels of reliability to 
different organizations; many people here remember GMail being "in beta" for 
five years at a pretty high service level, and some of us have used "beta" 
software that was about as robust as a wet tissue.

I've now done a few hours of research to nail down the history of this beta, 
and will put that in https://www.pypa.io/en/latest/history/ and other relevant 
documentation when I have it more sorted out. (I did some bug triage on 
Warehouse in 2016 but only started managing the project in December 2017.)

Warehouse has been up and available in some form as a preview since late 2013 
(see the original migration plan at 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2013-July/022096.html ), it's 
had read access to the canonical PyPI database for at least three years (I'm 
still working out the exact dates), and since June 2016 we've advised people 
that it was a better experience to upload packages to the canonical PyPI 
database using Warehouse than via pypi.python.org (per 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2016-June/029083.html and this 
change to the default `twine` upload URL https://github.com/pypa/twine/pull/177 
). In June/July 2017 we disabled uploading via the old site ( 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2017-June/030766.html ). I 
believe Warehouse has been called "pre-production" for that whole time up until 
now, and now we're calling it "beta".

So I recognize that "beta affects production" is a phrase that might give you 
pause! But I hope this answers your question satisfactorily.

-Sumana Harihareswara
Warehouse project manager
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 1:17:20 PM UTC-4, William Ray Wing wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 2018, at 10:50 AM, sumana.hariharesw...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > 
> 
> [byte]
> 
> > 
> > People who literally don't see the list of ways to filter on the left-hand 
> > side of https://pypi.org/search/
> 
> I do see the list of filters, but I only get it AFTER I’ve entered my first 
> search term.  I may be an outlier here, but I find that an unfortunate bit of 
> UI design.  I suppose it is deliberate in that the filters can then be used 
> to narrow search results, but if I know going in that I’m only interested in 
> a particular set of results, I’d like to be able to apply that filter to my 
> first search.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill

Bill, thank you for the report. I have filed it at 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/3462 and -- either there or here -- 
would appreciate knowing more about your experience so I can figure out how to 
reproduce it. What browser are you using? Do you have JavaScript turned off, or 
any relevant plugins installed (like Stylish)? What is your zoom level, if it's 
not 100%, and what is your window width? If you could email me a screenshot or 
add it to the GitHub issue, that would also help a lot.

best,
Sumana Harihareswara
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Terry Reedy]

On 3/28/2018 10:50 AM, sumana.hariharesw...@gmail.com wrote:


People who literally don't see the list of ways to filter on the left-hand side of 
https://pypi.org/search/ : I ask you the usual list of troubleshooting questions. What OS 
and browser are you using, what plugins and particularly interesting preferences are you 
using, and so on. (When I turn off JavaScript in my browser, I see a list of clickable 
category headings like "By Programming Language" but clicking on them causes no 
response.) A screenshot in an issue at https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues would be 
helpful. (Reminder that participating in Warehouse development, including by filing an 
issue, requires abiding by the PyPA Code of Conduct 
https://www.pypa.io/en/latest/code-of-conduct/ .)


This is a window width issue.  Full screen (on my monitor), the 
categories work fine, and clicking on them appears to work.  When I 
narrow the browser window to about 1100 pixels, the category list 'to 
the left' disappears and is replaced by an [Add filter] box.  When this 
happens, "from the list of classifiers on the left." should be replaced 
by "by clicking the button below."


>I recognize that many users want a more condensed view on many 
pypi.org pages,


I consider reducing the search results from 60 to 10 per page to be 
unacceptable and disrespectful of me as a user.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[William Ray Wing]

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 10:50 AM, sumana.hariharesw...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 

[byte]

> 
> People who literally don't see the list of ways to filter on the left-hand 
> side of https://pypi.org/search/

I do see the list of filters, but I only get it AFTER I’ve entered my first 
search term.  I may be an outlier here, but I find that an unfortunate bit of 
UI design.  I suppose it is deliberate in that the filters can then be used to 
narrow search results, but if I know going in that I’m only interested in a 
particular set of results, I’d like to be able to apply that filter to my first 
search.

Thanks,
Bill


> : I ask you the usual list of troubleshooting questions. What OS and browser 
> are you using, what plugins and particularly interesting preferences are you 
> using, and so on. (When I turn off JavaScript in my browser, I see a list of 
> clickable category headings like "By Programming Language" but clicking on 
> them causes no response.) A screenshot in an issue at 
> https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues would be helpful. (Reminder that 
> participating in Warehouse development, including by filing an issue, 
> requires abiding by the PyPA Code of Conduct 
> https://www.pypa.io/en/latest/code-of-conduct/ .)
> 
> -Sumana Harihareswara
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Ethan Furman]

On 03/28/2018 07:50 AM, sumana.hariharesw...@gmail.com wrote:

[snip lots of actions]

Cool, thanks!

--
~Ethan~
--
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Tim Golden]

On 28/03/2018 15:50, sumana.hariharesw...@gmail.com wrote:

I'll give a bit of context on PyPI's new visual design, then talk
about specific concerns folks have mentioned in this thread.


[... snip ...]

At the risk of sounding patronising, can I thank you for coming back to
engage with the ideas expressed here, dissenting and otherwise? Frankly, 
I wouldn't have been surprised if you'd either stayed silent or simply 
pointed people towards your issue tracker.


I think it's important to acknowledge that, no matter how much
communication and outreach has been involved, not everyone's going to be
happy with a redesign. Having our concerns be taken seriously, even if
they're ultimately not accepted, is key.

TJG
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 1:47:11 AM UTC-4, dieter wrote:
> Someone asked for feedback here. At least he should look for it here.

I'm a woman. Please use "she" to refer to me.

-Sumana Harihareswara
-- 
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:19:57 AM UTC-4, Wolfgang Maier wrote:
> For me, that's a window width issue. The sidebar with the filters only 
> shows when the window is wide enough. Unfortunately, the text mentioning 
> it doesn't change, so this should be fixed.

Thanks. Filed as https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/3454 .
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[sumana . harihareswara]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:03:27 AM UTC-4, Paul  Moore wrote:

> Digging into this further, the design work on the Warehouse site has
> been ongoing since late 2015, and there was an extensive user testing
> phase, so honestly, I think it's too late to be arguing that the site
> design is a problem now. One of the design goals was to integrate
> better with the python.org website, so if you don't like the blue
> theme, you should probably take it up with them first :-)

I'll give a bit of context on PyPI's new visual design, then talk about 
specific concerns folks have mentioned in this thread.

The codebase behind the new PyPI is called "Warehouse". Donald Stufft started 
the project and volunteers have been working on it for a while. Some history: 
https://www.pypa.io/en/latest/presentations/

Designer and frontend developer Nicole Harris started contributing to Warehouse 
http://whoisnicoleharris.com/warehouse/ as a volunteer several years ago, 
assessing legacy PyPI, articulating design goals, and starting an overhaul. 
http://whoisnicoleharris.com/2015/12/31/designing-warehouse-an-overview.html 
has her assessments and plans from that time. She's doing further user tests 
right now http://whoisnicoleharris.com/2018/03/13/user-testing-warehouse.html 
to get more data on what users have trouble with, and looking into, for 
instance, space usage, color, layout, and readability. She's opening issues 
based on that testing and tagging them "user testing" 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues?q=is%3Aopen+label%3A%22user+testing%22 
in case you want to follow along and see what she's finding.

Some folks have asked that pypi's design be consistent with python.org 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/2562 -- I've noted this thread there.

I looked into the contrast issue and found that we aren't meeting WCAG 
accessibility guidelines on this, so I have updated the relevant issue 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/3334 and am marking it to be fixed 
before we shut down the legacy site.

I recognize that many users want a more condensed view on many pypi.org pages, 
and am tracking that in https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/1988 and 
linking to this thread.

The "classifiers"/"filters" phrasing mismatch, I've filed as 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues/3452 .

People who literally don't see the list of ways to filter on the left-hand side 
of https://pypi.org/search/ : I ask you the usual list of troubleshooting 
questions. What OS and browser are you using, what plugins and particularly 
interesting preferences are you using, and so on. (When I turn off JavaScript 
in my browser, I see a list of clickable category headings like "By Programming 
Language" but clicking on them causes no response.) A screenshot in an issue at 
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues would be helpful. (Reminder that 
participating in Warehouse development, including by filing an issue, requires 
abiding by the PyPA Code of Conduct 
https://www.pypa.io/en/latest/code-of-conduct/ .)

-Sumana Harihareswara
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Ethan Furman]

On 03/27/2018 03:49 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 11:03:00 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:



Digging into this further, the design work on the Warehouse site has
been ongoing since late 2015, and there was an extensive user testing
phase,



(And yes, I hate the front page of the main python.org site too. At least
the documentation pages are nice.)


The main page is better than I remember (it's been a few years since I last saw the change, and was completely 
unimpressed by it); the big (really big) irritant at the moment is the menus automatically popping up as I cursor over 
them -- if automatic, there really should be a delay before they gobble up my view.


The new PyPI lists of projects wastes too much space, and the bright blue is 
intolerable.  I can't use it.

Are the little boxes replaceable by the package authors?  That would be 
interesting.

--
~Ethan~
--
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Ethan Furman]

On 03/26/2018 03:16 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:


The new Python Package Index at https://pypi.org is now in beta.


The banner says:

--> This is a beta deployment of Warehouse. Changes made here affect the 
production instance of PyPI (pypi.python.org).

Why is a beta instance affecting the production instance?

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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[dieter]

Tim Golden  writes:
> ...
> In either case, talking about it
> here seems fruitless.

Someone asked for feedback here. At least he should look for it here.

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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Ian Kelly]

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Sumana Harihareswara  
wrote:
> The new Python Package Index at https://pypi.org is now in beta.
>
> This means the site is robust, but we anticipate needing more user
> testing and changes before it is "production-ready" and can fully
> replace https://pypi.python.org . We hope to complete the transition
> before the end of April 2018.
>
> We're still working to ensure the new codebase and infrastructure are
> reliable. So please don't rely on it (yet) unless you can handle the
> occasional minor outage.
>
> But we want you to try the new PyPI, test it, and tell us if you have
> any problems. During the beta, we'll have IRC and Twitter livechats to
> hear from you:

For me, the category filters alone are a killer feature over the old
PyPI. I think it's also a plus to the Python community overall that
PyPI not look to newcomers like something that was designed in the 90s
and then abandoned.

I agree with Steven about the unnecessary boxes around every single
package, though. The presentation of the list of packages could be
*much* denser while keeping the same readability, which would also
make the page more usable by reducing the amount of scrolling needed.
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Gregory Ewing]

Paul Moore wrote:

maybe a less technical
term[1] like "filters" would help here?


Categories?

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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Bill Deegan]

The back ground blue on the pypi page is the highlight blue on the
python.org page, they should change the color to match to background
python.org color.

-Bill




On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:50 AM, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 22:25:44 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> >  wrote:
> >> As an extra bonus, even when searching is not reliant on Javascript,
> >> mangling the text in the search box often is, so unless I'm extra
> >> careful, whenever I want to search for (say) "aardvarks", I invariably
> >> end up searching for "searaardvarksch".
> >>
> >> At least the new PyPI search box is better than that. They get a point.
> >>
> >>
> > "Mangling the text" should never be necessary. The HTML5  tag has
> > a 'placeholder' attribute for a reason.
>
>
> You're assuming the page is using HTML5. I've used a lot of these that
> did it in Javascript, and didn't degrade gracefully if Javascript was
> disabled.
>
>
>
> --
> Steve
>
> --
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>
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:50 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 22:25:44 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>>  wrote:
>>> As an extra bonus, even when searching is not reliant on Javascript,
>>> mangling the text in the search box often is, so unless I'm extra
>>> careful, whenever I want to search for (say) "aardvarks", I invariably
>>> end up searching for "searaardvarksch".
>>>
>>> At least the new PyPI search box is better than that. They get a point.
>>>
>>>
>> "Mangling the text" should never be necessary. The HTML5  tag has
>> a 'placeholder' attribute for a reason.
>
>
> You're assuming the page is using HTML5. I've used a lot of these that
> did it in Javascript, and didn't degrade gracefully if Javascript was
> disabled.
>

Any time you see something that requires JavaScript for this, you know
you've found a web site that dates back to... uhh, actually I don't
know. I only have versioning info on MDN back as far as HTML 4.01 ergo
1999, and the placeholder attribute is there. Of course, that doesn't
mean everyone *used* it, but it was certainly available.

ChrisA
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 22:25:44 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>  wrote:
>> As an extra bonus, even when searching is not reliant on Javascript,
>> mangling the text in the search box often is, so unless I'm extra
>> careful, whenever I want to search for (say) "aardvarks", I invariably
>> end up searching for "searaardvarksch".
>>
>> At least the new PyPI search box is better than that. They get a point.
>>
>>
> "Mangling the text" should never be necessary. The HTML5  tag has
> a 'placeholder' attribute for a reason.


You're assuming the page is using HTML5. I've used a lot of these that 
did it in Javascript, and didn't degrade gracefully if Javascript was 
disabled.



-- 
Steve

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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> As an extra bonus, even when searching is not reliant on Javascript,
> mangling the text in the search box often is, so unless I'm extra
> careful, whenever I want to search for (say) "aardvarks", I invariably
> end up searching for "searaardvarksch".
>
> At least the new PyPI search box is better than that. They get a point.
>

"Mangling the text" should never be necessary. The HTML5  tag
has a 'placeholder' attribute for a reason.

ChrisA
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 11:03:00 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:

> Digging into this further, the design work on the Warehouse site has
> been ongoing since late 2015, and there was an extensive user testing
> phase,

Oh? What did they test the user for?

Whatever it was, it was a pity they didn't test them for good taste 
before letting them approve the current design.

(And yes, I hate the front page of the main python.org site too. At least 
the documentation pages are nice.)

There's no point in raising a tracker issue. The web developers are 
invested in the design, they've spent months working on it, its their 
baby. Then there's the whole "sunk cost" thing, "we just spent a small 
fortune redesigning the site, reverting means we wasted it".

And the fact that *by definition* the process is biased towards change 
whether it is needed or not. If the decision-makers didn't think change 
was wanted, they wouldn't have started the process in the first place. 
And no matter how cheap the price, "leave well enough alone" was never 
going to be the winning proposal.

So anyone (like me) who likes the old design is going to be pushing crap 
uphill with a straw, *even* if our opinion had been asked early in the 
process.


> PS I just realised, what I was seeing as "in your face" was the red
> "this is a test instance" banner - and that's in your face by design!
> You'd have thought I would have realised this earlier, but what can I
> say? Once I dismissed that banner, the page looks fine to me.

Too much bold blue space.

Too much low-contrast pale blue text and icons on blue background.

Too much unneeded frippery, like on the home page, which each of the 
featured projects has a box around it (why?) and an identical icon of a 
pale-grey cube.

(Presumably the cube is meant to symbolise the interconnectedness of all 
life in the cosmos, and it is faded pale grey in order to signify the 
ephemeral nature of software.)

Too many (*one* is too many) instances of the stupid design fashion for 
putting *active UI elements* in pale grey, the better to make them look 
inactive. E.g. the text in search boxes.

Speaking of which... oh the irony... in the 1980s, I had Mac with a 9-
inch (23 cm) screen, and that was enough real estate to put the 
instructions outside of the search field:

Search for: [  ]  ( Find )

and still have a roomy search field AND an actual Find button. 
(Presumably for people who couldn't push the Enter key).

Today, I was using a monitor the size of one of the smaller European 
countries. Three quarters of the active window was either covered in ads 
or blank, and yet most webpages have a microscopically small search field 
with a grammatically ambiguous command, apparently grey-out and inactive, 
in the search box itself:

[ Search ]

Yay for progress!

As an extra bonus, even when searching is not reliant on Javascript, 
mangling the text in the search box often is, so unless I'm extra 
careful, whenever I want to search for (say) "aardvarks", I invariably 
end up searching for "searaardvarksch".

At least the new PyPI search box is better than that. They get a point.




-- 
Steve

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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Wolfgang Maier]

For me, that's a window width issue. The sidebar with the filters only 
shows when the window is wide enough. Unfortunately, the text mentioning 
it doesn't change, so this should be fixed.



On 03/27/2018 12:06 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 10:48:15 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:


By the way, on the search page:

https://pypi.org/search/


it says "Enter a search query above, or select a filter from the list
of classifiers on the left" but there is no such filter or list of
classifiers.


Do you not get the section

"""

Filter Projects

By Programming Language
By License
By Framework
...
"""

on the left of the page?


There's nothing on the left of the page. It has:

(pypi logo) (search projects text box)

("Enter a search query..." with examples)

(Add filter button)


then the blue footer with "Get Help", "About PyPI", etc.





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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Tim Golden]

On 27/03/2018 11:06, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 10:48:15 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:


By the way, on the search page:

https://pypi.org/search/


it says "Enter a search query above, or select a filter from the list
of classifiers on the left" but there is no such filter or list of
classifiers.


Do you not get the section

"""

Filter Projects

By Programming Language
By License
By Framework
...
"""

on the left of the page?


There's nothing on the left of the page. It has:

(pypi logo) (search projects text box)

("Enter a search query..." with examples)

(Add filter button)


then the blue footer with "Get Help", "About PyPI", etc.


I imagine the Classifiers are being injected by JS. I know from previous 
comments of Steven's that he's not a fan of this particular approach to 
web page construction.


But whether I'm right or not, commenting snarkily about the design of 
pypi.org on *this* list doesn't seem particularly useful. Feel free to 
take it up on any of the forums where the work is actually being done by 
the people who are actually doing it, and who have been doing so for 
quite a while now.


Either they'll take note of your concerns and act, or they'll decline to 
agree with your point of view. In either case, talking about it here 
seems fruitless.


TJG
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 10:48:15 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:

>> By the way, on the search page:
>>
>> https://pypi.org/search/
>>
>>
>> it says "Enter a search query above, or select a filter from the list
>> of classifiers on the left" but there is no such filter or list of
>> classifiers.
> 
> Do you not get the section
> 
> """
> 
> Filter Projects
> 
> By Programming Language
> By License
> By Framework
> ...
> """
> 
> on the left of the page? 

There's nothing on the left of the page. It has:

(pypi logo) (search projects text box)

("Enter a search query..." with examples)

(Add filter button)


then the blue footer with "Get Help", "About PyPI", etc.



-- 
Steve

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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Paul Moore]

On 27 March 2018 at 10:48, Paul Moore  wrote:
> Same is true of your comment about the site design,
> although I suspect it's a bit late for that to be changed in the
> immediate future - the site design has been basically unchanged since
> very early in the redesign. Personally, I agree it's a bit "in your
> face", but not bad enough that I felt it was worth flagging as an
> issue.

Digging into this further, the design work on the Warehouse site has
been ongoing since late 2015, and there was an extensive user testing
phase, so honestly, I think it's too late to be arguing that the site
design is a problem now. One of the design goals was to integrate
better with the python.org website, so if you don't like the blue
theme, you should probably take it up with them first :-)

Paul

PS I just realised, what I was seeing as "in your face" was the red
"this is a test instance" banner - and that's in your face by design!
You'd have thought I would have realised this earlier, but what can I
say? Once I dismissed that banner, the page looks fine to me.
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Paul Moore]

On 27 March 2018 at 09:35, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Mar 2018 18:16:26 -0400, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
>
>> The new Python Package Index at https://pypi.org is now in beta.
>>
>> This means the site is robust, but we anticipate needing more user
>> testing and changes before it is "production-ready" and can fully
>> replace https://pypi.python.org . We hope to complete the transition
>> before the end of April 2018.
>
> Ah, excellent, we can finally get rid of the unending nightmare that was
> the nice, clean, readable PyPI design and replace it with something full
> of unnecessary swaths of bold colours and low-contrast light-blue text on
> blue background. Yay!
>
> By the way, on the search page:
>
> https://pypi.org/search/
>
>
> it says "Enter a search query above, or select a filter from the list of
> classifiers on the left" but there is no such filter or list of
> classifiers.

Do you not get the section

"""

Filter Projects

By Programming Language
By License
By Framework
...
"""

on the left of the page? Or is it just that it's not clear that this
is what's meant by "the list of classifiers"? It did take me a moment
to realise that "classifiers" meant this - maybe a less technical
term[1] like "filters" would help here? You could raise an issue on
https://github.com/pypa/warehouse/issues if you think it's worth
changing. (Same is true of your comment about the site design,
although I suspect it's a bit late for that to be changed in the
immediate future - the site design has been basically unchanged since
very early in the redesign. Personally, I agree it's a bit "in your
face", but not bad enough that I felt it was worth flagging as an
issue).

Paul

[1] "Classifiers" is what the relevant package metadata is called, but
it's not exactly what the average user would refer to that data as.
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 26 Mar 2018 18:16:26 -0400, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:

> The new Python Package Index at https://pypi.org is now in beta.
> 
> This means the site is robust, but we anticipate needing more user
> testing and changes before it is "production-ready" and can fully
> replace https://pypi.python.org . We hope to complete the transition
> before the end of April 2018.

Ah, excellent, we can finally get rid of the unending nightmare that was 
the nice, clean, readable PyPI design and replace it with something full 
of unnecessary swaths of bold colours and low-contrast light-blue text on 
blue background. Yay!

By the way, on the search page:

https://pypi.org/search/


it says "Enter a search query above, or select a filter from the list of 
classifiers on the left" but there is no such filter or list of 
classifiers.




-- 
Steve

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please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Sumana Harihareswara]

The new Python Package Index at https://pypi.org is now in beta.

This means the site is robust, but we anticipate needing more user
testing and changes before it is "production-ready" and can fully
replace https://pypi.python.org . We hope to complete the transition
before the end of April 2018.

We're still working to ensure the new codebase and infrastructure are
reliable. So please don't rely on it (yet) unless you can handle the
occasional minor outage.

But we want you to try the new PyPI, test it, and tell us if you have
any problems. During the beta, we'll have IRC and Twitter livechats to
hear from you:

* Tuesday, March 27th, 16:00-17:00 UTC
* Friday, March 30th, 14:00-15:00 UTC
* Tuesday, April 3rd, 15:00-16:00 UTC
* Friday, April 5th, 0:00-1:00 UTC

More at
https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2018/03/warehouse-all-new-pypi-is-now-in-beta.html
.

For future PyPI news, please subscribe to the low-traffic PyPI
announcement email list:
https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/pypi-annou...@python.org/

Thank you.
-- 
Sumana Harihareswara
Warehouse project manager
Changeset Consulting
https://changeset.nyc
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