[issue11831] "pydoc -w" causes "no Python documentation found" error when the path is not current directory

[Irit Katriel]

Irit Katriel  added the comment:

Closed Issue31305 as a duplicate of this.

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versions: +Python 3.10, Python 3.11, Python 3.9 -Python 2.7, Python 3.2

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[issue31305] 'pydoc -w import' report "no Python documentation found for 'import'"

[Irit Katriel]

Irit Katriel  added the comment:

It is still relevant, but there is another issue for this: issue11831.

--
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resolution:  -> duplicate
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed
superseder:  -> "pydoc -w" causes "no Python documentation found" error when 
the path is not current directory

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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Pablo Galindo Salgado]

Pablo Galindo Salgado  added the comment:


New changeset cdfbe581bae1b33d4eb135597cd27b0f3782e97e by Pablo Galindo (Miss 
Islington (bot)) in branch '3.10':
bpo-38623: Add note about site module (site-packages) (GH-16974) (GH-28536)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/cdfbe581bae1b33d4eb135597cd27b0f3782e97e


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[issue45300] Building Python documentation with doctest logs a ResourceWarning in Doc/library/nntplib.rst

[STINNER Victor]

New submission from STINNER Victor :

Build Python documentatioin with:

make -C Doc/ PYTHON=../python venv
LANG= PYTHONTRACEMALLOC=10 make -C Doc/ PYTHON=../python SPHINXOPTS="-q -W 
-j10" doctest 2>&1|tee log

See the logs:

/home/vstinner/python/main/Lib/socket.py:776: ResourceWarning: unclosed 

  self._sock = None
Object allocated at (most recent call last):
  File 
"/home/vstinner/python/main/Doc/venv/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sphinx/builders/__init__.py",
 lineno 361
self.write(docnames, list(updated_docnames), method)
  File 
"/home/vstinner/python/main/Doc/venv/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sphinx/ext/doctest.py",
 lineno 366
self.test_doc(docname, doctree)
  File 
"/home/vstinner/python/main/Doc/venv/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sphinx/ext/doctest.py",
 lineno 470
self.test_group(group)
  File 
"/home/vstinner/python/main/Doc/venv/lib/python3.11/site-packages/sphinx/ext/doctest.py",
 lineno 554
self.test_runner.run(test, out=self._warn_out, clear_globs=False)
  File "/home/vstinner/python/main/Lib/doctest.py", lineno 1495
return self.__run(test, compileflags, out)
  File "/home/vstinner/python/main/Lib/doctest.py", lineno 1348
exec(compile(example.source, filename, "single",
  File "", lineno 1
  File "/home/vstinner/python/main/Lib/nntplib.py", lineno 334
self.sock = self._create_socket(timeout)
  File "/home/vstinner/python/main/Lib/nntplib.py", lineno 399
return socket.create_connection((self.host, self.port), timeout)
  File "/home/vstinner/python/main/Lib/socket.py", lineno 828
sock = socket(af, socktype, proto)

--
assignee: docs@python
components: Documentation
messages: 402709
nosy: docs@python, vstinner
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Building Python documentation with doctest logs a ResourceWarning in 
Doc/library/nntplib.rst
versions: Python 3.11

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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Łukasz Langa]

Łukasz Langa  added the comment:


New changeset d672dd34f0bc3addeaf1789d4183e3a37ab110d5 by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.9':
bpo-38623: Add note about site module (site-packages) (GH-16974) (GH-28537)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/d672dd34f0bc3addeaf1789d4183e3a37ab110d5


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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Łukasz Langa]

Łukasz Langa  added the comment:

Thanks, Peter! ✨  ✨

--
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versions: +Python 3.10, Python 3.11 -Python 3.7, Python 3.8

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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Łukasz Langa]

Łukasz Langa  added the comment:


New changeset 87f97fe5e6434da51246d70af9e2cd7d63c29fba by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.10':
bpo-38623: Add note about site module (site-packages) (GH-16974) (GH-28536)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/87f97fe5e6434da51246d70af9e2cd7d63c29fba


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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Łukasz Langa]

Łukasz Langa  added the comment:


New changeset 55b45bf707c6c8084db259fe2f8aa08e84ea0d99 by Peter Bittner in 
branch 'main':
bpo-38623: Add note about site module (site-packages) (GH-16974)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/55b45bf707c6c8084db259fe2f8aa08e84ea0d99


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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Éric Araujo]

Éric Araujo  added the comment:

Python has thousands of open issues and PRs, so that’s why the one you opened 
didn’t have comments at first.

For cases like this, there is a 'skip-news' label to satisfy the robotic checks.

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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Steven Hsu]

Steven Hsu  added the comment:

Thanks for reminding.
In the beginning, I didn't add a NEWS entry in the PR (#27032).

However, after 11 days when there was no progress of the PR, I doubted that 
maybe I missed something, so I made a NEWS entry to make sure.

And soon after the NEWS entry was added, the PR was processed quickly.

Anyway, it's a interesting experience for me, and thanks again!

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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Éric Araujo]

Éric Araujo  added the comment:

This can be closed.  Thanks for the patch!

For next time, such small doc fixes don’t need a NEWS entry.

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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset 2f643b1a8cd53f3c2f49f931bc98990a3b400495 by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.9':
[3.9] bpo-44561: Update hyperlinks in Doc/distributing/index.rst (GH-27032) 
(GH-27233)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/2f643b1a8cd53f3c2f49f931bc98990a3b400495


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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset bce2847169e181ae894b323b9d5c31b0a3bec621 by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.10':
[3.10] bpo-44561: Update hyperlinks in Doc/distributing/index.rst (GH-27032) 
(GH-27234)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/bce2847169e181ae894b323b9d5c31b0a3bec621


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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


--
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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Nick Coghlan]

Change by Nick Coghlan :


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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Nick Coghlan]

Nick Coghlan  added the comment:


New changeset b494685b2548489efcc66993cc6c13b027ce3b26 by Steven Hsu in branch 
'main':
bpo-44561: Update hyperlinks in Doc/distributing/index.rst (#27032)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/b494685b2548489efcc66993cc6c13b027ce3b26


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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Irit Katriel]

Change by Irit Katriel :


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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Steven Hsu]

Steven Hsu  added the comment:

I have make a new PR (#27032), and the CLA was signed.
Thanks for review.

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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Steven Hsu]

Change by Steven Hsu :


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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Steven Hsu]

Change by Steven Hsu :


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pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/27027

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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Irit Katriel]

Irit Katriel  added the comment:

Thanks, do you mind creating a github PR to fix this?

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[issue44561] Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation

[Steven Hsu]

New submission from Steven Hsu :

In https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/main/Doc/distributing/index.rst, 
there are three expired hyperlinks:

.. _Project structure: \
https://packaging.python.org/tutorials/distributing-packages/
.. _Building and packaging the project: \
   
https://packaging.python.org/tutorials/distributing-packages/#packaging-your-project
.. _Uploading the project to the Python Packaging Index: \
   
https://packaging.python.org/tutorials/distributing-packages/#uploading-your-project-to-pypi

And it should be fixed in this way:

.. _Project structure: \

https://packaging.python.org/tutorials/packaging-projects/#packaging-python-projects
.. _Building and packaging the project: \
   
https://packaging.python.org/tutorials/packaging-projects/#creating-the-package-files
.. _Uploading the project to the Python Packaging Index: \
   
https://packaging.python.org/tutorials/packaging-projects/#uploading-the-distribution-archives

Thanks.

--
assignee: docs@python
components: Documentation
files: index.rst
messages: 396941
nosy: StevenHsuYL, docs@python
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Some expired hyperlinks in Python documentation
type: enhancement
versions: Python 3.9
Added file: https://bugs.python.org/file50139/index.rst

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

The documentation is now online: 
https://docs.python.org/dev/using/configure.html

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[Senthil Kumaran]

Change by Senthil Kumaran :


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:


New changeset abfd6388cdba376a72686df52a9a98b2d558271b by Victor Stinner in 
branch 'master':
bpo-43774: Enhance debug build documentation (GH-25712)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/abfd6388cdba376a72686df52a9a98b2d558271b


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:


New changeset 645ed62fb4c09b7e23887fcca0767b0f2d7d3fd6 by Victor Stinner in 
branch 'master':
bpo-43774: Remove unused PYMALLOC_DEBUG macro (GH-25711)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/645ed62fb4c09b7e23887fcca0767b0f2d7d3fd6


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


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[issue43886] Extending/embedding Python documentation outdated/incomplete

[Federico Pellegrin]

Federico Pellegrin  added the comment:

Just a small addition:

Specifically in the documentation it talks about embedding:

"
It is not necessarily trivial to find the right flags to pass to your compiler 
(and linker) in order to embed the Python interpreter into your application, 
particularly because Python needs to load library modules implemented as C 
dynamic extensions (.so files) linked against it.


To find out the required compiler and linker flags, you can execute the 
pythonX.Y-config script which is generated as part of the installation process 
(a python3-config script may also be available). This script has several 
options, of which the following will be directly useful to you:
"

But doesn't really say anything about extensions. Is the same python-config 
used therefore for extensions as well?

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[issue43886] Extending/embedding Python documentation outdated/incomplete

[Federico Pellegrin]

New submission from Federico Pellegrin :

Hello,
We had lately some issues with various possible variants of compilation (static 
vs dynamic) with reference to both embedding and extending Python. There are a 
bunch of tickets on the topic (ie. #21536 or #34309) but I guess one important 
point is that the documentation seems to be not very clear on this. Also 
various Linux distros seem to take very different approaches (static/dynamic).

Infact from the current documentation it seems unclear if python-config should 
be used for both or not. We found also some references to a newer --embed flag 
(see ie. #36721) which is not mentioned in the documentation.
Some other sources suggest that python-config should not be used when Python is 
build with Py_ENABLE_SHARED=1. (ref. here: 
https://github.com/conda/conda-build/issues/2738#issuecomment-371148021)

Also the example looks probably outdated, as it mentions Python 3.4

It would be nice if some light would be shed on the correct practice to use and 
the official documentation updated.

Thanks,
Federico

--
assignee: docs@python
components: Documentation
messages: 391370
nosy: docs@python, fede.evol
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Extending/embedding Python documentation outdated/incomplete
type: behavior
versions: Python 3.9

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:


New changeset 85918e4ab6e9410008aef6dedf000d24b3e120ea by Victor Stinner in 
branch 'master':
bpo-43774: Add more links to configure options (GH-25363)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/85918e4ab6e9410008aef6dedf000d24b3e120ea


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[Pablo Galindo Salgado]

Pablo Galindo Salgado  added the comment:


New changeset 2459b92a4db69d9b14d0a86a9b81cc075894e910 by Victor Stinner in 
branch 'master':
bpo-43774: Remove --without-cycle-gc doc (GH-25364)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/2459b92a4db69d9b14d0a86a9b81cc075894e910


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:


New changeset bd88ccb943c0ea672c14a87e76157fade4feae11 by Victor Stinner in 
branch 'master':
bpo-43774: Document the Python Build System (GH-25302)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/bd88ccb943c0ea672c14a87e76157fade4feae11


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

Raymond:
> Thanks for adding this.

You're welcome :-) I plan to send an email to python-dev to ask for reviews. I 
hesitated to ask for a review on the PR, but honestly, it's painful to read 
plain text Sphinx. I prefer to read HTML ;-)

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset f7be26a8f2ed588df90959ae7c0fdcafe2091f76 by Victor Stinner in 
branch 'master':
bpo-43774: Doc job of Azure Pipelines uses Doc/requirements.txt (GH-25296)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/f7be26a8f2ed588df90959ae7c0fdcafe2091f76


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger  added the comment:

Thanks for adding this.

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

I wrote PR 25296 to reuse Doc/requirements.txt in the Docs PR job of Azure 
Pipelines. It installs Sphinx 3.2.1 as expected, and with this version, no 
warning is emitted.

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


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pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/25296

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:


New changeset 54366953633dbe5d9585dbae0c633d4e92df2d04 by Victor Stinner in 
branch 'master':
bpo-43774: Enhance configure documentation (GH-25293)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/54366953633dbe5d9585dbae0c633d4e92df2d04


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

> The following syntax fails on the Docs PR job of the Azure Pipelines:

It uses Sphinx 2.2.0. Do we still support Spinx 2.2.0?

Collecting sphinx==2.2.0
...
Successfully installed Jinja2-2.11.3 MarkupSafe-1.1.1 Pygments-2.8.1 
alabaster-0.7.12 babel-2.9.0 blurb-1.0.8 certifi-2020.12.5 chardet-4.0.0 
docutils-0.17 idna-2.10 imagesize-1.2.0 packaging-20.9 pyparsing-2.4.7 
python-docs-theme-2020.12 pytz-2021.1 requests-2.25.1 snowballstemmer-2.1.0 
sphinx-2.2.0 sphinxcontrib-applehelp-1.0.2 sphinxcontrib-devhelp-1.0.2 
sphinxcontrib-htmlhelp-1.0.3 sphinxcontrib-jsmath-1.0.1 
sphinxcontrib-qthelp-1.0.3 sphinxcontrib-serializinghtml-1.1.4 urllib3-1.26.4

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

The following syntax fails on the Docs PR job of the Azure Pipelines:
--
.. cmdoption:: --with-cxx-main
.. cmdoption:: --with-cxx-main=COMPILER

   Compile the Python ``main()`` function and link Python executable with C++
   compiler: ``$CXX``, or *COMPILER* if specified.
--

Error:
--
Warning, treated as error:
/home/vsts/work/1/s/Doc/using/configure.rst:47:Duplicate explicit target name: 
"cmdoption--with-cxx-main".
Makefile:49: recipe for target 'build' failed
--

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


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pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/25293

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:

With Sphinx 2, there is an error on the Docs PR job of Azure Pipelines:

Warning, treated as error:
/home/vsts/work/1/s/Doc/using/configure.rst:416:unknown option: 
--enable-universalsdk

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

STINNER Victor  added the comment:


New changeset a41782cc84bcd813209a03e6e11c60e77dbc7718 by Victor Stinner in 
branch 'master':
bpo-43774: Document configure options (GH-25283)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/a41782cc84bcd813209a03e6e11c60e77dbc7718


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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

Change by STINNER Victor :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +24019
stage:  -> patch review
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/25283

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[issue43774] [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation

[STINNER Victor]

New submission from STINNER Victor :

Attached PR documents configure, compiler and linker options to build Python.

--
assignee: docs@python
components: Documentation
messages: 390536
nosy: docs@python, vstinner
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: [Doc] Document configure options in the Python documentation
versions: Python 3.10

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Re: python documentation

[Michael Torrie]

On 3/28/21 12:28 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> You want to use an obsolete version of Python and an obsolete version of
> Qt.  That's totally fine!  But why are you angry when people, who are
> strictly volunteers, are unable to help much here other than to strongly
> recommend you reconsider?

Oops. You weren't ever asking for help.  My bad.

However there was understandable push back to documenting and promoting
an obsolete distribution of Python 2 (and Qt4 no less!) to new users.
Definitely not something the documentation should be doing.
-- 
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Re: python documentation

[Michael Torrie]

On 3/27/21 1:02 PM, pyt...@blackward.eu wrote:
> You say: "The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and
> don't want to move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch
> from Python 2 to some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3.
> That's what seems questionable." And I say, forcing people to do
> things they do not want to do is a little more questionable. There
> are reasons, why people "don't want to move to Python 3".
Sorry but that's not the way it works.  No one forces anyone to use
Python.  And no one forces anyone to move to Python 3.  But Python 2 is
not supported any longer, and you're on your own.  Plain and simple.
This is no different than if you chose to stay with, for example, an
obsolete version of some proprietary software package.  Lots of VB6
users out there still, but you can't seriously expect MS support or
official VB forums to be able to provided assistance do you?

You want to use an obsolete version of Python and an obsolete version of
Qt.  That's totally fine!  But why are you angry when people, who are
strictly volunteers, are unable to help much here other than to strongly
recommend you reconsider?

> Maybe you should concentrate more on developing 
> Python 3 a little more attractive then in burning witches?

And indeed Python 3 is a very attractive platform to move to!

> But for my part, this discussion is ended, it does not lead to anything. 
> At least in this point I agree with Chris.

Yes many new posters seem to come along and end up in this rut.  The
lack of emotional subtext in a mailing list doesn't help communication I
admit. I've been in your shoes before and I know how frustrating it can
be to not get the answers I want to hear, but I have to admit my own
attitude determined the outcome of some of the more frustrating
exchanges I've been a part of.
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Re: python documentation

[Thomas Jollans]

On 27/03/2021 06:20, pyt...@blackward.eu wrote:

Chris,

you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
and that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is 
simply not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and 
belonging libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to 
see / accept these arguments.


By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
and gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of 
Python and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot 
of minor and major incompatibilities between your subversions and 
belonging packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to 
its own death.


*rolls eyes*

I know PyQtGraph reasonably well and this is the first time I've ever 
heard of anybody using it on Python 2. I mean, I imagine it once worked 
on Python 2 and probably still does, but all of these package have had 
perfectly good Python 3 support for many, many years.



- Thomas


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Re: python documentation

[Terry Reedy]

On 3/27/2021 1:20 AM, pyt...@blackward.eu wrote:

By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and 
gave up in favor of creating said compilation.


Why?  What was biggest roadblock?


Compatibility of Python and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly.


I don't believe this without a clear explanation as to what you mean and 
strong evidence.  Are you claiming that you cannot put together a 
combination of modern python + numpy + scipy + qt + ... that work 
together?  (Many people including my daughter seem to manage just fine.) 
 If there are particular problems, it would be worth discussing and 
trying to solve them.  And what would 'compatibility have to do with 
'3.x'?  (With respect to unicode, compatibility has been improved in one 
important respect since 3.3.)



A whole lot of minor and major incompatibilities > between your subversions and 
belonging packages.


I don't understand 'subversions' and 'belonging packages'?

I understand 'incompatibities' in general but not what you mean 
specifically.  I don't know of any evidence that there are increased 
within, say, 3.8 or 3.9 packages versus 2.7 packages.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: python documentation

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-03-27, MRAB  wrote:
> On 2021-03-27 17:03, pyt...@blackward.eu wrote:
>> You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some other
>> language rather than to migrate to Python 3".
>> 
>> Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!
>
> You've quoted him partially and incorrectly. He said "Everyone
> claims that it's easier to move to  rather than
> to migrate to Python 3, and I'm calling people's bluffs now."
>
> The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't want to
> move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from Python 2
> to some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's what
> seems questionable.

That questionable to the point of being laughable.

I've ported a fair number of apps from Python2 to Python3. Many of
them played pretty fast and loose with py2 strings vs. raw bytes vs.
Unicode.  That causes as many 2->3 porting problems as anything can,
and it was still far, far easier to port from py2->py3 than it would
have been to port from py2 to any of the couple dozen other langauges
I've used in my career.

Though I still somtimes pine for the fixed length integer types that
were lost in the py1.5->py2 transition...

--
Grant

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Re: python documentation

[Terry Reedy]

I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other 
parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:

https://www.python.org/download/alternatives/


Your title is misleading because you are proposing a change to a 
python.org website page, not the 'Python documentation'.  That term, as 
often used, refers to the official docs at python.org/doc.  See the list 
of "Documentation" links at the bottom of the page for a broader 
interpretation, which still excludes the page you are interested in.


Note: the 'core developers' control the contents of .../downloads, 
.../doc, and some of .../dev.  The rest of the website is done by a 
different PSF group.



Blythooon can be found here:
https://pypi.org/project/blythooon/
and the belonging installation step-by-step-guide video here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOE8xqYS_2azFsFjBVEwVMg


I don't know if the unknown to me page author(s) would consider this a 
'packaging' at they intend the term to mean.



May I ask - how can I do that best? Thanks in advance and


At the bottom of the page is "Submit Website Bug" linked to 
https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/issues


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: python documentation

[Terry Reedy]

I answered your actual question, in your original post, separately.  But 
by posting here, and continuing to respond, you implicitly invited 
extended discussion with questions and opinions.


On 3/26/2021 11:15 PM, pyt...@blackward.eu wrote:

in response to Chris Angelico, a long-time python-list discussant who 
has some strong opinions, especially with regard to 2.x versus 3.x:



No, I am not encouraging, I am just offering the possibility.


By only offering 2.7, you could be construed to be encouraging.  You 
must know that you are stepping into a long-term debate.  Your other 
comments suggests that you are not neutral.


...
It might be a good thing to recommend people to switch to Python 3.*, it 
might be a bad idea to FORCE people to do so by taking away the 
possibility to install Python 2.7.*;


The there is *obviously* no intention to take away that possibility. 
The download pages have everything available, all the way back to the 
original 0.9 sources.  The latter was recently added.  So suggesting 
that the website might 'censor' 2.7 is a kind unfair.


If I am right, 


This implies doubt.

the Python 2.7.* installers still are provided on the 
python.org website.


Along with Windows installers back to 1.5.2.

So long as this is done, I cannot see a reason not 
to list a 'distribution' using Python 2.7.* in said list, right?


Would you say the same for a 'distribution' using 2.0.1, or 1.5.2?


But, in the end, this naturally is not my decision.


AFAIK, none of the website maintainers post on this list.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: python documentation

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 7:46 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> What are the odds, Chris, that rewriting an existing project written in an
> older version of a language like python FROM SCRATCH into any other existing
> language, would be easier than updating it to the same language which made
> fairly specific changes and has some guidelines how to update?
>

Exactly. Yet people keep saying, oh, Python 3 is so hard, I can't
possibly migrate from Python 2 to Python 3, it'll be easier to rewrite
it all in ...

I've completely stopped believing any such claims.

ChrisA
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RE: python documentation

[Avi Gross via Python-list]

What are the odds, Chris, that rewriting an existing project written in an
older version of a language like python FROM SCRATCH into any other existing
language, would be easier than updating it to the same language which made
fairly specific changes and has some guidelines how to update?

True, if you have programmers already knowing the other language handy,
fine.

But as I study other languages, I keep finding things they often do
invisibly in the compiler or interpreter that make me wonder why anyone
thinks they can write one program that reads them all as if with a magic
ring. Some features make translations far from straightforward, not that
they cannot be done, but some thought is needed and maybe a change is
aspects of how the darn thing is built.

What you are expressing is the fact that the longer we encourage people to
keep using the old, the more painful it is to move forward with the new. At
some point, so many changes may accumulate, that catching up may not be
worth doing.

Any nontrivial program that uses many packages and modules will not find
identical things in a new target language, for example. Some nice concise
ways some things are done may work differently elsewhere and need to be
redesigned completely or lead to lots of errors.

Now if the case was being made to switch to a more recent advanced language,
maybe. But the languages he suggested strike me as fairly ancient, even if
they too have been evolving. 

As you note, he is free to do what he wishes but not free to force others to
help him when it is not in their interest.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 1:37 AM
To: Python 
Subject: Re: python documentation

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM  wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
> and that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is 
> simply not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and 
> belonging libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to 
> see / accept these arguments.
>
> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
> and gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of 
> Python and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot 
> of minor and major incompatibilities between your subversions and 
> belonging packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its
own death.

FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your distribution.
Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further visibility.

> With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even 
> gives me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to 
> rely more on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I 
> am fluent in both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right 
> horse at an early stage.

If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to  rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm calling people's
bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if it's easier - it's no
skin off my nose.

Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny how it
keeps coming up.

ChrisA
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Re: python documentation

[MRAB]

On 2021-03-27 19:02, pyt...@blackward.eu wrote:

You say: "The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't
want to move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from
Python 2 to some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's
what seems questionable."

And I say, forcing people to do things they do not want to do is a
little more questionable. There are reasons, why people "don't want to
move to Python 3". Maybe you should concentrate more on developing
Python 3 a little more attractive then in burning witches?
At no point did I say that people should be forced to switch. The 
"regex" module, for example, still supports Python 2.7, but only just, 
and that won't last forever.

But for my part, this discussion is ended, it does not lead to anything.
At least in this point I agree with Chris.

Cheers, have a good time
Dominik

[snip]

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Re: python documentation

[python]

You say: "The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't 
want to move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from 
Python 2 to some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's 
what seems questionable."


And I say, forcing people to do things they do not want to do is a 
little more questionable. There are reasons, why people "don't want to 
move to Python 3". Maybe you should concentrate more on developing 
Python 3 a little more attractive then in burning witches?


But for my part, this discussion is ended, it does not lead to anything. 
At least in this point I agree with Chris.


Cheers, have a good time
Dominik




On 2021-03-27 18:53, MRAB wrote:

On 2021-03-27 17:03, pyt...@blackward.eu wrote:
You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some 
other

language rather than to migrate to Python 3".

Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!


You've quoted him partially and incorrectly. He said "Everyone claims
that it's easier to move to  rather than to
migrate to Python 3, and I'm calling people's bluffs now."

The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't want to
move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from Python 2 to
some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's what seems
questionable.



On 2021-03-27 06:36, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM  wrote:


Chris,

you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
and
that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is 
simply

not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging
libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see /
accept these arguments.

By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
and
gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of 
Python
and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of 
minor

and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own 
death.


FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
visibility.

With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even 
gives
me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely 
more
on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am 
fluent in
both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an 
early

stage.


If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to
 rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm
calling people's bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if
it's easier - it's no skin off my nose.

Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny 
how

it keeps coming up.


--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[MRAB]

On 2021-03-27 17:03, pyt...@blackward.eu wrote:

You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some other
language rather than to migrate to Python 3".

Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!

You've quoted him partially and incorrectly. He said "Everyone claims 
that it's easier to move to  rather than to migrate 
to Python 3, and I'm calling people's bluffs now."


The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't want to 
move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from Python 2 to 
some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's what seems 
questionable.




On 2021-03-27 06:36, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM  wrote:


Chris,

you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
and

that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is simply
not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging
libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see /
accept these arguments.

By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
and

gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own 
death.


FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
visibility.

With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even 
gives
me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely 
more
on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am fluent 
in
both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an 
early

stage.


If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to
 rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm
calling people's bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if
it's easier - it's no skin off my nose.

Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny how
it keeps coming up.



--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 4:03 AM  wrote:
>
> You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some other
> language rather than to migrate to Python 3".
>
> Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!
>

Yep. Plenty of people have claimed that. And guess what? They mostly
end up deciding to move to Python 3 instead, because, what a surprise,
it's actually a lot easier than completely rewriting your code in a
different language. That's why I no longer try to argue people around.
Go ahead and change languages - it's entirely up to you what you do.

ChrisA
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Re: python documentation

[Dan Stromberg]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 9:56 AM  wrote:

> May I ask, do you have any knowledge or even experience about if resp.
> how good Tauthon and Pypy2 works together with Qt 4.8?
>

I've never used Qt.  I do my GUI's with PyGOBject.

I've moved all of my personal code that I care about from Python 2.x to
3.x.  One of my former employers was forced to remain on 2.x though,
because they were using Nupic (for Hierarchical Temporal Memory, AKA HTM),
which will likely never be ported to 3.x because it digs around in
CPython's C API in less-than-well-behaved ways, and the vendor that created
Nupic is moving on to new techniques.
-- 
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Re: python documentation

[python]

You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some other 
language rather than to migrate to Python 3".


Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!





On 2021-03-27 06:36, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM  wrote:


Chris,

you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
and

that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is simply
not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging
libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see /
accept these arguments.

By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
and

gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own 
death.


FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
visibility.

With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even 
gives
me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely 
more
on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am fluent 
in
both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an 
early

stage.


If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to
 rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm
calling people's bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if
it's easier - it's no skin off my nose.

Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny how
it keeps coming up.

ChrisA

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[python]

Hi Dan,


thank you very much for your kind hints - quite interesting idea to have 
a more detailed look into this direction!


By the way, your response was the very first here, which I consider to 
have a constructive notion; at least I did not felt very welcome here by 
Chris until yet...


In the last project I developed the frontend on said C# - WinForms basis 
(C# and .NET is quite awesome! Most of it meanwhile has even become 
crossplatform! By the way, as Spyder also has this "just 3" notion, I 
already switched to VSCodium and never regretted that - VSCodium is the 
best free IDE for Python as well as C# yet, if you ask me:) and just 
parts of the backend with IronPython (which also is nice, although it 
just has access to a limited set of libraries). It worked fine, but I do 
not like mixing languages if not necessary as I deem that to be a 
software design weakness and it naturally comes with some overhead. 
Imagine, if another person one day should continue this work, he must be 
fluent in Python AND C#, not so easy to find someone free who is on the 
market I guess...


Blythooon solves the current issues well, so at the moment, there is no 
pressing reason for me to become frantic. But considering the long term, 
those thoughts are naturally real. The obvious trend to force people to 
switch to Python 3 might lead to people even eliminating the access to 
the old packages Blythooon is using. This sword of Damocles is a heavy 
burden.


If anybody thinks that is a little too much seeing on the black side, 
then they should attentively follow what at the very moment is happening 
with the current Qt version...


May I ask, do you have any knowledge or even experience about if resp. 
how good Tauthon and Pypy2 works together with Qt 4.8?


From my experience the limitating factor during frontend development is 
nearly always the GUI part. Kivy seems to be nice, but scientific 
plotters alike PyQtGraph are Qt based and cannot easily be integrated in 
Kivy yet.



Have a nice day,
Best Regards
Dominik







On 2021-03-27 07:01, Dan Stromberg wrote:
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:37 PM Chris Angelico  
wrote:



On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM  wrote:
> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and
> gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
> and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
> and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
> packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.

FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
visibility.


Chris, not everything you dislike is anti-Python FUD.

Dominik, if you want something like Python 2.7, you likely should try
Tauthon or Pypy2.  Don't expect pip to work well on Tauthon; last I 
heard

that was not happening.  Also Pypy2 has some issues with C extension
modules, and I'm not confident it'll pip well either.  It's very 
worthwhile
to move to 3.x, but CPython has a rather sad compatibility story when 
it
comes to C extension modules; hopefully CFFI is going to fix that in 
the
long term. If you're avoiding porting pure Python code, then that feels 
to
me a bit like foot dragging, as the pure Python changes are not that 
big

and are pretty much limited to the 2.7 -> 3.0 transition.

I like to build versions of Python from 0.9 to 3.10alpha, for the sake 
of

quickly ascertaining what features were introduced in what versions of
CPython.  IOW, there are good reasons to keep around old Pythons.  
Python

history is interesting.

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 5:01 PM Dan Stromberg  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:37 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM  wrote:
>> > By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and
>> > gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
>> > and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
>> > and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
>> > packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.
>>
>> FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
>> distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
>> visibility.
>
> Chris, not everything you dislike is anti-Python FUD.
>

Do we have proof of any of the above?

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[Dan Stromberg]

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:37 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM  wrote:
> > By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and
> > gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
> > and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
> > and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
> > packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.
>
> FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
> distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
> visibility.
>
Chris, not everything you dislike is anti-Python FUD.

Dominik, if you want something like Python 2.7, you likely should try
Tauthon or Pypy2.  Don't expect pip to work well on Tauthon; last I heard
that was not happening.  Also Pypy2 has some issues with C extension
modules, and I'm not confident it'll pip well either.  It's very worthwhile
to move to 3.x, but CPython has a rather sad compatibility story when it
comes to C extension modules; hopefully CFFI is going to fix that in the
long term. If you're avoiding porting pure Python code, then that feels to
me a bit like foot dragging, as the pure Python changes are not that big
and are pretty much limited to the 2.7 -> 3.0 transition.

I like to build versions of Python from 0.9 to 3.10alpha, for the sake of
quickly ascertaining what features were introduced in what versions of
CPython.  IOW, there are good reasons to keep around old Pythons.  Python
history is interesting.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM  wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason and
> that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is simply
> not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging
> libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see /
> accept these arguments.
>
> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and
> gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
> and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
> and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
> packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.

FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
visibility.

> With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even gives
> me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely more
> on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am fluent in
> both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an early
> stage.

If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to
 rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm
calling people's bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if
it's easier - it's no skin off my nose.

Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny how
it keeps coming up.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[python]

Chris,

you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason and 
that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is simply 
not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging 
libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see / 
accept these arguments.


By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and 
gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python 
and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor 
and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging 
packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.


With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even gives 
me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely more 
on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am fluent in 
both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an early 
stage.


But to be honest, I see no reason to discuss that further, you seem to 
be quite determined - so be it. Ignore Blythooon. I have no disadvantage 
by that, as I would not have an advantage the other way round, so I am 
fine with it.


Best Regards
Dominik






On 2021-03-27 04:44, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:15 PM  wrote:


No, I am not encouraging, I am just offering the possibility.

Python and its community once was not dogmatic. At least this was my
impression when I started - after all Python originally had been
designed to be multi paradigmatic. This spirit of freedom was one 
mayor

reason for Python to grow so fast - from my POV.

But freedom is constituted by freedom of choice.

It might be a good thing to recommend people to switch to Python 3.*, 
it

might be a bad idea to FORCE people to do so by taking away the
possibility to install Python 2.7.*; some people tend to react badly
when infantilised.


Why do you install 2.7.18? Isn't it a bad idea to FORCE people onto
that particular version, instead of letting them run 2.7.9 or 2.7.1 if
they choose? Does it infringe on their freedoms by offering only one
version?

If people want a specific version, they can get it. There's no reason
to promote the use of outdated versions.


If I am right, the Python 2.7.* installers still are provided on the
python.org website. So long as this is done, I cannot see a reason not
to list a 'distribution' using Python 2.7.* in said list, right?


You have a pre-1.0 distribution of an end-of-life version of Python
that works on a very specific platform. That's fine. But there's no
reason to have it promoted anywhere.


By the way, there is more, Blythooon offers beyond what I already have
written in the last email. Otherwise please name me another comparable
MINIMAL 'distribution', which is compiled specifically for scientific
FRONTend development? In terms of diversity I also cannot see, why
Blythooon MUST have something special to be listed? Is it not enough,
that it is another one?



Nope, not enough for it to be promoted. The page you linked to
originally is a very short list of only those which are notable enough
to be worth promoting. And from what I'm seeing, yours isn't.

Move to Python 3 and leave the old version behind. It has been a year
since Python 2 received any updates at all, and over a decade since
2.7 was originally released. Isn't it time it was finally permitted to
rest in peace?

ChrisA

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[MRAB]

On 2021-03-27 03:44, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:15 PM  wrote:



[snip]

By the way, there is more, Blythooon offers beyond what I already have
written in the last email. Otherwise please name me another comparable
MINIMAL 'distribution', which is compiled specifically for scientific
FRONTend development? In terms of diversity I also cannot see, why
Blythooon MUST have something special to be listed? Is it not enough,
that it is another one?



Nope, not enough for it to be promoted. The page you linked to
originally is a very short list of only those which are notable enough
to be worth promoting. And from what I'm seeing, yours isn't.

Move to Python 3 and leave the old version behind. It has been a year
since Python 2 received any updates at all, and over a decade since
2.7 was originally released. Isn't it time it was finally permitted to
rest in peace?


It's not dead; it's just pining for the fjords. :-)
--
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Re: python documentation

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:15 PM  wrote:
>
> No, I am not encouraging, I am just offering the possibility.
>
> Python and its community once was not dogmatic. At least this was my
> impression when I started - after all Python originally had been
> designed to be multi paradigmatic. This spirit of freedom was one mayor
> reason for Python to grow so fast - from my POV.
>
> But freedom is constituted by freedom of choice.
>
> It might be a good thing to recommend people to switch to Python 3.*, it
> might be a bad idea to FORCE people to do so by taking away the
> possibility to install Python 2.7.*; some people tend to react badly
> when infantilised.

Why do you install 2.7.18? Isn't it a bad idea to FORCE people onto
that particular version, instead of letting them run 2.7.9 or 2.7.1 if
they choose? Does it infringe on their freedoms by offering only one
version?

If people want a specific version, they can get it. There's no reason
to promote the use of outdated versions.

> If I am right, the Python 2.7.* installers still are provided on the
> python.org website. So long as this is done, I cannot see a reason not
> to list a 'distribution' using Python 2.7.* in said list, right?

You have a pre-1.0 distribution of an end-of-life version of Python
that works on a very specific platform. That's fine. But there's no
reason to have it promoted anywhere.

> By the way, there is more, Blythooon offers beyond what I already have
> written in the last email. Otherwise please name me another comparable
> MINIMAL 'distribution', which is compiled specifically for scientific
> FRONTend development? In terms of diversity I also cannot see, why
> Blythooon MUST have something special to be listed? Is it not enough,
> that it is another one?
>

Nope, not enough for it to be promoted. The page you linked to
originally is a very short list of only those which are notable enough
to be worth promoting. And from what I'm seeing, yours isn't.

Move to Python 3 and leave the old version behind. It has been a year
since Python 2 received any updates at all, and over a decade since
2.7 was originally released. Isn't it time it was finally permitted to
rest in peace?

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[python]

No, I am not encouraging, I am just offering the possibility.

Python and its community once was not dogmatic. At least this was my 
impression when I started - after all Python originally had been 
designed to be multi paradigmatic. This spirit of freedom was one mayor 
reason for Python to grow so fast - from my POV.


But freedom is constituted by freedom of choice.

It might be a good thing to recommend people to switch to Python 3.*, it 
might be a bad idea to FORCE people to do so by taking away the 
possibility to install Python 2.7.*; some people tend to react badly 
when infantilised.


If I am right, the Python 2.7.* installers still are provided on the 
python.org website. So long as this is done, I cannot see a reason not 
to list a 'distribution' using Python 2.7.* in said list, right?


By the way, there is more, Blythooon offers beyond what I already have 
written in the last email. Otherwise please name me another comparable 
MINIMAL 'distribution', which is compiled specifically for scientific 
FRONTend development? In terms of diversity I also cannot see, why 
Blythooon MUST have something special to be listed? Is it not enough, 
that it is another one?


But, in the end, this naturally is not my decision.

Cheers, Dominik







On 2021-03-26 22:57, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 7:49 AM  wrote:


Hi Chris,


thank you for your interest and thanks for asking.


Blythooon is notable due to several reasons; let's compare it with 
some

of the already listed (and thus obviously notable) 'distributions':

2) winpython seems not to support Python 2.7.* anymore.

Blythooon supports Python 2.7.18.



Ah. That is indeed notable, but not in a good way. You are encouraging
the use of an end-of-life version of Python, and your installer has
very little to boast beyond that.

ChrisA

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 7:49 AM  wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>
> thank you for your interest and thanks for asking.
>
>
> Blythooon is notable due to several reasons; let's compare it with some
> of the already listed (and thus obviously notable) 'distributions':
>
> 2) winpython seems not to support Python 2.7.* anymore.
>
> Blythooon supports Python 2.7.18.
>

Ah. That is indeed notable, but not in a good way. You are encouraging
the use of an end-of-life version of Python, and your installer has
very little to boast beyond that.

ChrisA
-- 
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Re: python documentation - addendum

[python]

Sorry, copy & paste obviously failed, here is the link I wanted to 
include:


https://www.anaconda.com/terms-of-service



On 2021-03-26 17:33, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 3:31 AM  wrote:


Howdy Folks,


I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other
parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:



What makes it notable?

ChrisA

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[python]

Hi Chris,


thank you for your interest and thanks for asking.


Blythooon is notable due to several reasons; let's compare it with some 
of the already listed (and thus obviously notable) 'distributions':


1) pythonxy seems not to be maintained anymore - the last version I 
found is from 2015.


Blythooon is still maintained and the last version is from February 
2021.



2) winpython seems not to support Python 2.7.* anymore.

Blythooon supports Python 2.7.18.


3) When using Anaconda Python you might not only have to respect the 
anaconda/miniconda licenses but also the terms of service of the 
belonging website. For commercial uses that might pose some problems. If 
you have a peek into the text:


https://www.python.org/download/alternatives/

You may find statements alike "we are not granting you permission to use 
the Repository for commercial activities" or "Your use of the Repository 
is at the sole discretion of Anaconda, which may deny you further use of 
the Repository or terminate this license at any time, for any reason, 
with or without cause." there... Companies tend to have problems with 
this :)


Blythooon is a netinstaller which downloads from python.org and 
pypi.org. No comparable limitations are known to me for these sources.



4) Blythooon is not a distribution in the original sense; it is a 
netinstaller, which is able to download, (md5-)check and install a 
'snapshot' of packages/versions:


   - Python 2.7.18
   - Virtualenv 20.2.2
   - PySide 1.2.2
   - NumPy 1.16.6
   - PyQtGraph 0.10.0
   - Matplotlib 2.2.5
   - SciPy 1.1.0
   - PySerial 3.5
   - Pyadaaah 0.90

and some further packages supporting said ones. This compilation has 
been carefully assembled to allow the development of advanced, 
production quality, scientific, Python 2.7 applications with Qt 4.8 
based GUIs and the ability to display nice (live) plots (via PyQtGraph 
and/or Matplotlib). Blythooon obviously comes with some mathematical 
stuff alike NumPy or SciPy too.


Said versions work together well. The developer does not need to find 
out, which versions work together well. Because that is not easy. Try 
e.g. PyQtGraph 0.11.* with PySide 1.2.* - you might be
disappointed then, as well as if you would be trying PyQtGraph 0.10.* 
with PySide 1.2.4.


All Blythooon installations, if not manually modified, are 100% 
compatible, as I said, it is more a 'snapshot' then a permanently 
self-updating distribution... Blythooon does not focus on up-to-dateness 
but on proven stability and compatibility. But, as Blythooon sets up a 
Python Runtime Environment just based on PIP, the developer naturally 
can tailor his installation further (e.g. by installing further packages 
or upgrading the existing).


Blythooon is a (nearly fully) automatic netinstaller for Windows 10 only 
(at least yet, depending on the feedback, porting to Linux / macOS could 
be done easily - the netinstaller is based on the platform independent 
powershell).



I hope, some aspects are notable enough...


Best Regards
Dominik










On 2021-03-26 17:33, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 3:31 AM  wrote:


Howdy Folks,


I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other
parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:



What makes it notable?

ChrisA

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: python documentation

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 3:31 AM  wrote:
>
> Howdy Folks,
>
>
> I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other
> parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:
>

What makes it notable?

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

python documentation

[python]

Howdy Folks,


I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other 
parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:



https://www.python.org/download/alternatives/



Blythooon can be found here:

https://pypi.org/project/blythooon/

and the belonging installation step-by-step-guide video here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOE8xqYS_2azFsFjBVEwVMg



May I ask - how can I do that best? Thanks in advance and


Best Regards
Dominik
--
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[issue42489] Wrong method signature in python Documentation

[Andrew Svetlov]

Change by Andrew Svetlov :


--
assignee:  -> docs@python
components: +Documentation -macOS
nosy: +docs@python
resolution:  -> fixed
stage: patch review -> resolved
status: open -> closed
versions: +Python 3.10, Python 3.8

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[issue42489] Wrong method signature in python Documentation

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset cc5eb935c79bae13def91965e5fb7e8346d9dea1 by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.9':
bpo-42489: Fix the signature for list.sort() in the tutorial (GH-23538)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/cc5eb935c79bae13def91965e5fb7e8346d9dea1


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[issue42489] Wrong method signature in python Documentation

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset e1c669b7ed18a81bfaa349726424ff5de9485f0a by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.8':
bpo-42489: Fix the signature for list.sort() in the tutorial (GH-23538)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/e1c669b7ed18a81bfaa349726424ff5de9485f0a


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[issue42489] Wrong method signature in python Documentation

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


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pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23542

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[issue42489] Wrong method signature in python Documentation

[Andrew Svetlov]

Andrew Svetlov  added the comment:


New changeset d41ec65ab7411e877ca33d05e8c900feca530635 by Zackery Spytz in 
branch 'master':
bpo-42489: Fix the signature for list.sort() in the tutorial (GH-23538)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/d41ec65ab7411e877ca33d05e8c900feca530635


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nosy: +asvetlov

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[issue42489] Wrong method signature in python Documentation

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


--
nosy: +miss-islington
nosy_count: 5.0 -> 6.0
pull_requests: +22423
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23541

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[issue42489] Wrong method signature in python Documentation

[Zackery Spytz]

Change by Zackery Spytz :


--
keywords: +patch
nosy: +ZackerySpytz
nosy_count: 3.0 -> 4.0
pull_requests: +22420
stage:  -> patch review
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/23538

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[issue42489] Wrong method signature in python Documentation

[Chuan Lotus]

New submission from Chuan Lotus :

In python 3.9.1 documentation tutorial 5.1,the method list.sort(key=None, 
reverse=False) lacks '*' before 'key=None', which may be confused.

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messages: 381984
nosy: lotus_chuan, ned.deily, ronaldoussoren
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Wrong method signature in python Documentation
versions: Python 3.9

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[issue11831] "pydoc -w" causes "no Python documentation found" error when the path is not current directory

[Éric Araujo]

Éric Araujo  added the comment:

pydoc help:

  pydoc -w  ...
Write out the HTML documentation for a module to a file in the current
directory. […]

So there is no support for not using the current directory, probably on purpose 
in order to use the current-dir-in-sys.path trick, so I’m not sure if this 
should be addressed.

(These days I would be more worried about src directories, which I’ve just 
tested are not handled well by pydoc, but that would be a different ticket.)

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[issue37575] Python Documentation on strings (tutorial section 3.1.2.)

[Zachary Ware]

Change by Zachary Ware :


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status: open -> closed

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[issue37575] Python Documentation on strings (tutorial section 3.1.2.)

[Irit Katriel]

Irit Katriel  added the comment:

I think this issue can be closed (not a bug).

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nosy: +iritkatriel
status: pending -> open

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[issue31305] 'pydoc -w import' report "no Python documentation found for 'import'"

[Serhiy Storchaka]

Change by Serhiy Storchaka :


--
components: +Library (Lib)
type: behavior -> enhancement
versions: +Python 3.10 -Python 2.7, Python 3.5

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[issue31305] 'pydoc -w import' report "no Python documentation found for 'import'"

[Joannah Nanjekye]

Joannah Nanjekye  added the comment:

Given EOL is this still relevant? as it is marked 2.7

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nosy: +nanjekyejoannah

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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Brett Cannon]

Brett Cannon  added the comment:

I think "Python learners deserve to know about "site-packages" and (optionally) 
"dist-packages" " is a bit strong of a statement. I don't think the tutorial 
covers how to install third-party package which is what goes into 
site-packages, so I don't know what benefit they will garner from having that 
covered in the tutorial to teach the basics of Python. In an intermediate 
tutorial I can totally understand the explanation along with using e.g. pip, 
but for a tutorial like this I still think it's unnecessary.

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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Inada Naoki]

Inada Naoki  added the comment:

> The tutorial currently mentions its special role only briefly [7], saying:
>
>> * The installation-dependent default.
>
> We should explain that part. I'll give it a shot replacing my earlier 
> proposal.

I don't think so.  At there, the tutorial doesn't explain about even standard 
library.  We shouldn't explain about it there.

It should be explained much later in the tutorial, or document other than the 
tutorial.

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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Peter Bittner]

Peter Bittner  added the comment:

Python learners deserve to know about "site-packages" and (optionally) 
"dist-packages". This is a "random note", it's an explanation that is missing 
in the tutorial.

- Site-packages "is the target directory of manually built Python packages", 
does someone explain.[4]

- It is the "expected convention for locally installed packages", explains Greg 
Ward in "Installing Python Modules".[5]

- Their location is only a subset of `sys.path`, as visible from the Python 
code in the `site` module.[6]

The tutorial currently mentions its special role only briefly [7], saying:

> * The installation-dependent default.

We should explain that part. I'll give it a shot replacing my earlier proposal.


[4] 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31384639/what-is-pythons-site-packages-directory
[5] https://docs.python.org/3.8/install/#modifying-python-s-search-path
[6] https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/Lib/site.py#L319-L344
[7] 
https://docs.python.org/3.8/tutorial/modules.html?highlight=installation-dependent%20default#the-module-search-path

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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[Inada Naoki]

Inada Naoki  added the comment:

It is tempting that putting some paragraphs to the tutorial when you think 
"this should be documented!" but there is no good place in the library 
reference.

HOWTOs is the document for advanced topics.  But it doesn't cover wide area 
yet.  There is no topic about module search path or site-packages.

Since the tutorial covers a wide area, including module, it is very tempting to 
add many random notes about module.

But please remember that the primary reader is people new to Python.  (I 
learned Python 2.4 by the tutorial!)

The reader has learned Python syntax and basic types in chapters 1~5 and now 
learning how to split a Python program into multiple files.

So please don't try to answer the question in Stackoverflow in the tutorial, 
unless it is worth enough for the reader.

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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset a6b37589a05c63abec122d3a00785641a3bcd85a by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.8':
bpo-38623: Doc: Add section for site module CLI. (GH-17858)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/a6b37589a05c63abec122d3a00785641a3bcd85a


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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[miss-islington]

miss-islington  added the comment:


New changeset 72995c5cdd7ad4af6252bbe129e8fc63f5006130 by Miss Islington (bot) 
in branch '3.7':
bpo-38623: Doc: Add section for site module CLI. (GH-17858)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/72995c5cdd7ad4af6252bbe129e8fc63f5006130


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[issue38623] Python documentation should mention how to find site-packages

[miss-islington]

Change by miss-islington :


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pull_requests: +17301
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/17891

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