Re: up to date books?
Glad to hear that my efforts to cover some of 2.3's release features in a mostly-2.2 book were appreciated. I'm probably going to do the same thing for the 2nd edition of the Nutshell: wait until 2.5 alpha's out so I can mention _its_ feechurz in a mostly-2.4 book... meaning the 2nd ed of the Nutshell may be almost a year away... Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
One of my most popular talks is re-learning Python -- can be anywhere between 1 and 4 hours, depending on level of detail -- it's all about the changes 1.5.2 - today's Python, why they came about and why you would want to use them... Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my most popular talks is re-learning Python -- can be anywhere between 1 and 4 hours, depending on level of detail -- it's all about the changes 1.5.2 - today's Python, why they came about and why you would want to use them... Alex PyCon TX 2006? regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
Would you consider releasing an ebook in the mean time? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glad to hear that my efforts to cover some of 2.3's release features in a mostly-2.2 book were appreciated. I'm probably going to do the same thing for the 2nd edition of the Nutshell: wait until 2.5 alpha's out so I can mention _its_ feechurz in a mostly-2.4 book... meaning the 2nd ed of the Nutshell may be almost a year away... Alex -- Regards, Casey -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:58:23 +0200, Magnus Lycka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? It depends on what kind of books you like, and of course on your previous experience. ... If you like a high density book, Alex Martelli's Python in a Nutshell is great, That one is my first choice. FYI, it is based on Python 2.2, but discusses most (all?) interesting 2.3 features too. That has been very acceptable to me. I wouldn't buy a book that didn't discuss 'yield' or list comprehensions. Probably not. Most recent changes to Python, such as decorators, are things that beginners might want to leave until later... New standard modules, such as datetime, are covered in the standard library manual. Exactly. /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn jgrahn@ Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu \X/algonet.se R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:25:36 +0200, Magnus Lycka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Salerno wrote: Just one more quick question: I'm basically learning programming for fun, and I'm concentrating on C# right now. Python seems interesting, but I was wondering if I should even bother. Would it supplement C# in any way, or can C# do everything Python can? Python is an excellent tool in any programmers toolbox. [...] ... If I was a professional C# developer, I'm pretty sure I'd use Python quite a bit. As a professional C++ programmer and database developer, I've used Python to manage tests, find and repair broken data in mission critical production systems, [...] Actually, during seven years as an independent consultant, I found good use for Python with every client. Same here. Python is also a language that organizations and bosses tend to, increasingly, accept as a real language in which real programs can be written. Sometimes perceptions matter. One more positive thing about Python, as compared to C#, is that it isn't tied to a specific manufacturer or environment. That may not matter short-term, but in the long run, it may be crucial for the program -- and for the programmer. /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn jgrahn@ Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu \X/algonet.se R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
John Salerno wrote: These all seem to be focused on Java though. I think C# is close enough to Java when it comes to the issues discussed here, that you can read the texts and more or less think C# when you read Java... gene tani wrote: Start here: http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/2004/12/15/the-static-method-thing http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/java-is-not-python-either.html http://ischenko.blogspot.com/2005/02/java-may-not-be-that-bad-after-all.html and maybe poke around ehre to learn about language design, how people define typing, etc http://www.artima.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
John Salerno wrote: Just one more quick question: I'm basically learning programming for fun, and I'm concentrating on C# right now. Python seems interesting, but I was wondering if I should even bother. Would it supplement C# in any way, or can C# do everything Python can? Python is an excellent tool in any programmers toolbox. No one language is ideal for every task, but Python very often provides a more rapid solution to your problem than other languages do. Particularly for small problems. It's common to use Python to solve a problem in 3 minutes that would take 10 or 30 minutes to solve in some other way. It's also great for building something in 3 man-months instead of 3 man-years, but you need more time to verify that claim! ;^) If you need a GUI for some simple task, it might often be more convenient to use something like Excel or VB. I haven't used MS's C# environment, so I can't compare with that, but it's often just a bad habit to build captive user interfaces for every task we want to solve. It certainly makes it much more difficult to make modular and reusable software. Most Python programs I write work both as standalone programs and as modules that other programs can use. This versatility basically costs one line of code. If I was a professional C# developer, I'm pretty sure I'd use Python quite a bit. As a professional C++ programmer and database developer, I've used Python to manage tests, find and repair broken data in mission critical production systems, automate database administration tasks such as upgrading multiple databases, extracting, converting and copying data, create database reports, post-process generated source code, analyze large software systems and databases etc etc. Actually, during seven years as an independent consultant, I found good use for Python with every client. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? I do not know how much up-to-date they are but I have to suggest you these books: - Learning Python By Mark Lutz and David Ascher published by O'Reilly Most likely the best introductory book on Python - Python Cookbook By Alex Martelli and David Ascher published by O'Reilly By far the most useful book on Python after your first week of real use of this language Also, the fundamental - Programming Python (the 2nd edition ONLY) By Mark Lutz published by O'Reilly Is very useful for understanding the most inner details of Python would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? No. Python did not changed too much since rel. 1.5. You can still use a book published in 2001 as a introductory book (as I do). The changes are exhaustively described both in the official documentation and in the very fine what's new in... articles written by Andrew Kuchlin for every new release (see www.python.org). CU --- Alessandro Bottoni -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
I learned Python from the Learning Python book that's first on Alessandros list. If you have the Second Edition, that includes coverage for Python 2.3, I think you have quite a nice introductory book. As a reference book Python in a Nutshell and of course the Python documentation itself are quite good. Adriaan Alessandro Bottoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/18/05 9:02 am John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? I do not know how much up-to-date they are but I have to suggest you these books: - Learning Python By Mark Lutz and David Ascher published by O'Reilly Most likely the best introductory book on Python - Python Cookbook By Alex Martelli and David Ascher published by O'Reilly By far the most useful book on Python after your first week of real use of this language Also, the fundamental - Programming Python (the 2nd edition ONLY) By Mark Lutz published by O'Reilly Is very useful for understanding the most inner details of Python would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? No. Python did not changed too much since rel. 1.5. You can still use a book published in 2001 as a introductory book (as I do). The changes are exhaustively described both in the official documentation and in the very fine what's new in... articles written by Andrew Kuchlin for every new release (see www.python.org). CU --- Alessandro Bottoni -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
I highly recommend the Safari library service from Oreilly ( http://safari.oreilly.com ) you can check out all of the books listed below and about 10,000 more. The library contains much more than just Oreilly's books, but they are, of course, all in there. The first 2 weeks is free after that it's $20/month. You can check out 10 books at a time and you have to keep them for a month. You can download chapters, print pages, and search all the books in the library, as well as search across books you've checked out. It's a great way to get access to a broad range of technical books. One thing to be careful of. As the old books are there too it's possible to grab a first version when you might want a second or third version. Always list by date and make sure you're looking at the new stuff. Cheers, Paul Adriaan Renting wrote: I learned Python from the Learning Python book that's first on Alessandros list. If you have the Second Edition, that includes coverage for Python 2.3, I think you have quite a nice introductory book. As a reference book Python in a Nutshell and of course the Python documentation itself are quite good. Adriaan Alessandro Bottoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/18/05 9:02 am John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? I do not know how much up-to-date they are but I have to suggest you these books: - Learning Python By Mark Lutz and David Ascher published by O'Reilly Most likely the best introductory book on Python - Python Cookbook By Alex Martelli and David Ascher published by O'Reilly By far the most useful book on Python after your first week of real use of this language Also, the fundamental - Programming Python (the 2nd edition ONLY) By Mark Lutz published by O'Reilly Is very useful for understanding the most inner details of Python would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? No. Python did not changed too much since rel. 1.5. You can still use a book published in 2001 as a introductory book (as I do). The changes are exhaustively described both in the official documentation and in the very fine what's new in... articles written by Andrew Kuchlin for every new release (see www.python.org). CU --- Alessandro Bottoni -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
mark pilgrim's dive into python is a good book if you're new to python i also have python cookbook, and foundations of python network programming - i haven't really had a chance to look at these in detail yet but both of these look good On 8/18/05, Paul Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I highly recommend the Safari library service from Oreilly ( http://safari.oreilly.com ) you can check out all of the books listed below and about 10,000 more. The library contains much more than just Oreilly's books, but they are, of course, all in there. The first 2 weeks is free after that it's $20/month. You can check out 10 books at a time and you have to keep them for a month. You can download chapters, print pages, and search all the books in the library, as well as search across books you've checked out. It's a great way to get access to a broad range of technical books. One thing to be careful of. As the old books are there too it's possible to grab a first version when you might want a second or third version. Always list by date and make sure you're looking at the new stuff. Cheers, Paul Adriaan Renting wrote: I learned Python from the Learning Python book that's first on Alessandros list. If you have the Second Edition, that includes coverage for Python 2.3, I think you have quite a nice introductory book. As a reference book Python in a Nutshell and of course the Python documentation itself are quite good. Adriaan Alessandro Bottoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/18/05 9:02 am John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? I do not know how much up-to-date they are but I have to suggest you these books: - Learning Python By Mark Lutz and David Ascher published by O'Reilly Most likely the best introductory book on Python - Python Cookbook By Alex Martelli and David Ascher published by O'Reilly By far the most useful book on Python after your first week of real use of this language Also, the fundamental - Programming Python (the 2nd edition ONLY) By Mark Lutz published by O'Reilly Is very useful for understanding the most inner details of Python would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? No. Python did not changed too much since rel. 1.5. You can still use a book published in 2001 as a introductory book (as I do). The changes are exhaustively described both in the official documentation and in the very fine what's new in... articles written by Andrew Kuchlin for every new release (see www.python.org). CU --- Alessandro Bottoni -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
On 8/18/05, Jon Hewer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mark pilgrim's dive into python is a good book if you're new to python I agree that dive into python is a *very* good python book, but as it is says on http://diveintopython.org/ it is for experienced programmers. So if you are new to Python and to programming in general it might NOT be the best book to get started. bye, dimitri -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? It depends on what kind of books you like, and of course on your previous experience. I think Python: Visual QuickStart Guide by Chris Fehily is a rather nice beginner's book, even if it's from 2001. It's also pretty cheap. I don't have it at hand now, but I suspect that it doesn't cover new style classes, generators, or list (or generator) comprehensions, but it's still a good intro. If you like a high density book, Alex Martelli's Python in a Nutshell is great, and if you like to see a bunch of recipes, Python Cookbook, 2nd ed is good. The cookbook recipes are also on the net, but the book does add value to them. would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? Probably not. Most recent changes to Python, such as decorators, are things that beginners might want to leave until later... New standard modules, such as datetime, are covered in the standard library manual. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
I would suggest Alex Martelli's Python in a Nutshell or the Python Cookbook as the best Python books from Oreilly. I also like M. Pilgrim's Dive into Python. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
Thanks for the great replies everyone! Learning Python was my first choice, but it was also the reason I asked about older books, since it's from 2003. But it seems that isn't an issue, and I think that would be a nice place to start. Just one more quick question: I'm basically learning programming for fun, and I'm concentrating on C# right now. Python seems interesting, but I was wondering if I should even bother. Would it supplement C# in any way, or can C# do everything Python can? Thanks, John John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? thanks! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
Start here: http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/2004/12/15/the-static-method-thing http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/java-is-not-python-either.html http://ischenko.blogspot.com/2005/02/java-may-not-be-that-bad-after-all.html and maybe poke around ehre to learn about language design, how people define typing, etc http://www.artima.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
These all seem to be focused on Java though. gene tani wrote: Start here: http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/2004/12/15/the-static-method-thing http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/java-is-not-python-either.html http://ischenko.blogspot.com/2005/02/java-may-not-be-that-bad-after-all.html and maybe poke around ehre to learn about language design, how people define typing, etc http://www.artima.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
Also, are Python and Ruby similar languages? Which would be better to learn? John Salerno wrote: Thanks for the great replies everyone! Learning Python was my first choice, but it was also the reason I asked about older books, since it's from 2003. But it seems that isn't an issue, and I think that would be a nice place to start. Just one more quick question: I'm basically learning programming for fun, and I'm concentrating on C# right now. Python seems interesting, but I was wondering if I should even bother. Would it supplement C# in any way, or can C# do everything Python can? Thanks, John John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? thanks! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
well, it's not easy to find neutral comparisons of ruby and python, but http://www.ruby-doc.org/RubyEyeForThePythonGuy.html http://onestepback.org/index.cgi/Tech/Ruby/PythonAndRuby.rdoc http://www.approximity.com/ruby/Comparison_rb_st_m_java.html http://reflectivesurface.com/weblog/2004/12/19/why-rails http://martinfowler.com/bliki/CollectionClosureMethod.html Also, Hal Fulton's Ruby Way book has a good Python vs. ruby syntax appendix, if it's still in print -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
Thanks. I understand that my question probably causes a lot of grief for some people. :) gene tani wrote: well, it's not easy to find neutral comparisons of ruby and python, but http://www.ruby-doc.org/RubyEyeForThePythonGuy.html http://onestepback.org/index.cgi/Tech/Ruby/PythonAndRuby.rdoc http://www.approximity.com/ruby/Comparison_rb_st_m_java.html http://reflectivesurface.com/weblog/2004/12/19/why-rails http://martinfowler.com/bliki/CollectionClosureMethod.html Also, Hal Fulton's Ruby Way book has a good Python vs. ruby syntax appendix, if it's still in print -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
John Salerno wrote: ... Just one more quick question: I'm basically learning programming for fun, and I'm concentrating on C# right now. Python seems interesting, but I was wondering if I should even bother. Would it supplement C# in any way, or can C# do everything Python can? C# and Python are both Turing-complete (net of limitations to finite amounts of storage, in the real world), so of course they can do exactly the same things as each other in some pretty strong sense -- so can machine language, Fortran, ... Exactly because of this, this is hardly ever a sensible question to ask. It clearly can be more _convenient and practical_ to do some thing in C# than machine language, because C# is a higher-level language than machine language, which increases your productivity (this applies to most tasks, but for a few things, such as some interrupt-response routines in embedded systems, machine language can instead be vastly more practical and productive). Similarly, Python is a higher-level language than C#, which further increases your productivity (and again this applies to most tasks, but for a few lower-level things C# may in fact be more practical and productive). Besides considerations connected to the language themselves, similar issues (pushing the same way) apply to their implementations -- Python vs C# as well as C# vs machine language. As far as I know, to deploy C# applications you need a dotNet runtime (or perhaps a Mono runtime, if you find it robust enough for your purposes); with machine language you'd be restricted to a particular family of CPUs (or emulators thereof, such as VirtualPC to emulate intel CPUs under MacOSX with PowerPC CPUs). Similarly, with Python you can deploy on the same runtimes as you can with C# (using the IronPython implementation, which compiles Python to Microsoft CLR intermediate-code) -- but alternatively you can deploy to JVMs (with the Jython implementation), to a variety of architectures and OSs using a Python-dedicated runtime/VM (with the classic, CPython implementation), to some Nokia cellphones (Series 60 ones, I believe) using the Python runtime which Nokia has developed and released, one day to the Parrot VM, etc, etc... in practice, therefore, Python pervades more niches than C#, and thus offers more practical deployment options, just like C# is more pervasive and deployable than machine language. However, I believe the language-level (and therefore programmer-productivity) issue will be even more important in most cases. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
Thank you very much for that response! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Salerno wrote: ... Just one more quick question: I'm basically learning programming for fun, and I'm concentrating on C# right now. Python seems interesting, but I was wondering if I should even bother. Would it supplement C# in any way, or can C# do everything Python can? C# and Python are both Turing-complete (net of limitations to finite amounts of storage, in the real world), so of course they can do exactly the same things as each other in some pretty strong sense -- so can machine language, Fortran, ... Exactly because of this, this is hardly ever a sensible question to ask. It clearly can be more _convenient and practical_ to do some thing in C# than machine language, because C# is a higher-level language than machine language, which increases your productivity (this applies to most tasks, but for a few things, such as some interrupt-response routines in embedded systems, machine language can instead be vastly more practical and productive). Similarly, Python is a higher-level language than C#, which further increases your productivity (and again this applies to most tasks, but for a few lower-level things C# may in fact be more practical and productive). Besides considerations connected to the language themselves, similar issues (pushing the same way) apply to their implementations -- Python vs C# as well as C# vs machine language. As far as I know, to deploy C# applications you need a dotNet runtime (or perhaps a Mono runtime, if you find it robust enough for your purposes); with machine language you'd be restricted to a particular family of CPUs (or emulators thereof, such as VirtualPC to emulate intel CPUs under MacOSX with PowerPC CPUs). Similarly, with Python you can deploy on the same runtimes as you can with C# (using the IronPython implementation, which compiles Python to Microsoft CLR intermediate-code) -- but alternatively you can deploy to JVMs (with the Jython implementation), to a variety of architectures and OSs using a Python-dedicated runtime/VM (with the classic, CPython implementation), to some Nokia cellphones (Series 60 ones, I believe) using the Python runtime which Nokia has developed and released, one day to the Parrot VM, etc, etc... in practice, therefore, Python pervades more niches than C#, and thus offers more practical deployment options, just like C# is more pervasive and deployable than machine language. However, I believe the language-level (and therefore programmer-productivity) issue will be even more important in most cases. Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
Alessandro Bottoni wrote: Python did not changed too much since rel. 1.5. I presume by too much you mean very much rather than inordinately or excessively. IMHO the addition of [list off the top of my head] string methods, Unicode, new-style classes, generators, list comprehensions, etc etc since 1.5 would indicate that pointing a newbie at an old book would not be such a good idea. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
John Salerno wrote: Also, are Python and Ruby similar languages? Which would be better to learn? IMHO Knowing both, they are very similar. Python seems to be more mature and has better support. Threading is easier in Ruby, while Python is more intuitive across the board. I really like both, but it seems that you really can do more, easily, with Python. Very recently I was all about Ruby, then I rediscovered Python. It's really quite brilliant. /IMHO -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: up to date books?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, John Salerno wrote: hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? Well, well - and nobody mentioned an online tutorial (if I'm not wrong). What a shame :-). If you feel new to all this, then first go to this page: http://www.python.org/doc/2.4.1/ then locate the Tutorial and give it a try. Maybe it is not very complete and leaves some subjects in the dark, but after reading it you should improve your ability to choose the right printed book from your local store (or wherever you look for new books). After reading the Tutorial, I would start a decent text editor, and pointed it to my local Python install files, like /usr/local/lib/python2.4/ and checked if any *.py file made any sense to me. This would give me some hints about how much I need to learn and on what level. Regards, Tomasz Rola - -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did rm -rif on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBQwUtaxETUsyL9vbiEQIoEwCfZQm9IHu5wUFrdu7vUqbDAi6APkQAoOOc b7v4+ZFWEyh9nnOfDbJ/BbX0 =Fs7D -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
up to date books?
hi all. are there any recommendations for an intro book to python that is up-to-date for the latest version? would reading a book from a year or two ago cause me to miss much? thanks! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
