[Pythonmac-SIG] XCode for OS X 10.5?

[Skip Montanaro]

Sorry to ask a non-Python question here, but I need this to get my laptop 
rebuilt
so I can do stuff again.  I lost the disk on my Macbook Pro which Apple kindly
replaced, however my backups were partially toast, so I had to reinstall OS X
from scratch.  (Luckily /Users was viable.  Whew!)  

I can't find a version of XCode which works with Mac OS X  10.5.  All Apple will
show me on their dev site is XCode 3.2 which requires Snow Leopard.  I can't
build a dang thing - no make or gcc for instance.

Any pointers appreciated.

Thanks,

Skip Montanaro


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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Can't convert simple Python script to bundle with py2app

[Skip Montanaro]

>  You're building a 2.7? what is that? I thought Python was going from 2.6 to
> 3.0.

Building from Subversion trunk identifies itself as 2.7a0.  There will
be a number of
other 2.x versions released more-or-less in parallel with 3.y versions.

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] what's the plural of "Emacs"?

[Skip Montanaro]

Bob> I've heard that some people are happy with the Carbonized GNU Emacs
Bob> (I think it can be compiled from CVS, but there are various
Bob> binaries available), and Kevin Walzer is working on an AquaMacs
Bob>  distribution,
Bob> which I've heard mixed things about.

My understanding (completely second-hand, and from the XEmacs gang, no less)
is that the guy that Carbonized (Carbonified?) GNU Emacs got disillusioned
with the GNU folk.  There are enough Mac/GNU Emacs people to keep that
running though, so it should be a reasonable option.  There is a Carbon
patch for XEmacs (contributed by the same guy) that's available as a a
branch on the XEmacs CVS repository.

Skip

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] On posting long urls

[Skip Montanaro]

Jack> I've got the following javascript snippet in a bookmark in
Jack> Safari's bookmark bar:

Jack> 
javascript:void(location.href='http://tinyurl.com/create.php?url='+location.href)

Cool.  Seems to work with Firefox as well (1.0.3 on Solaris/Intell in my
case).

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[Pythonmac-SIG] Silly question perhaps, but how do I use py2app?

[Skip Montanaro]

I downloaded and installed py2app this evening.  I didn't find an app named
"py2app", but did find /usr/local/bin/py2applet.  Is that py2app?  If not,
where is it?  I tried running py2applet with no args or with --help.  Both
times it emitted lines like:

running py2app
creating /private/tmp/tmpN4iyW5/build
creating /private/tmp/tmpN4iyW5/build/bdist.darwin-7.9.0-Power_Macintosh
creating 
/private/tmp/tmpN4iyW5/build/bdist.darwin-7.9.0-Power_Macintosh/python2.4-standalone
creating 
/private/tmp/tmpN4iyW5/build/bdist.darwin-7.9.0-Power_Macintosh/python2.4-standalone/app
creating 
/private/tmp/tmpN4iyW5/build/bdist.darwin-7.9.0-Power_Macintosh/python2.4-standalone/app/collect
creating 
/private/tmp/tmpN4iyW5/build/bdist.darwin-7.9.0-Power_Macintosh/python2.4-standalone/app/temp
creating /private/tmp/tmpN4iyW5/dist
creating 
build/bdist.darwin-7.9.0-Power_Macintosh/python2.4-standalone/app/lib-dynload
creating 
build/bdist.darwin-7.9.0-Power_Macintosh/python2.4-standalone/app/Frameworks
error: You must specify either app or plugin

I'd appreciate some tips on how to use it.

Thanks,

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Recursion limit in OS X?

[Skip Montanaro]

Kevin> I ran across this thread:

Kevin> 
http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/commits/2005-February/003813.html

Kevin> which indicates to me that conflicts between recursion limits in
Kevin> Python and OS X are a known, documented issue.

% grep ulimit ~/.bash_profile
ulimit -s 8192

Works for me at least.

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] [OT] To upgrade Mac OSX or not?

[Skip Montanaro]

>> Thanks.  I'll have to check to see if that will work for my laptop.
>> I have plenty of other stuff on my plate though, so this particular
>> issue has sort of moved to the back burner...

Bob> If it runs 10.2, it'll run 10.3.  You'll probably notice better
Bob> performance, too.

Thanks.  The check is in the mail...

S

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] [OT] To upgrade Mac OSX or not?

[Skip Montanaro]

Thomas> I don't know where to find the release dates for different Mac
Thomas> OS X revs, but Other World Computing is offering Panther for
Thomas> $49:

Thomas> http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/specials/

Thanks.  I'll have to check to see if that will work for my laptop.  I have
plenty of other stuff on my plate though, so this particular issue has sort
of moved to the back burner...

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.

[Skip Montanaro]

>> There are several of us that keep a fairly close eye on the
>> python.org wiki.  If you want, I'm sure the option to move would be
>> available.

Bob> That works fine for me.. what are the next steps?  It would be nice
Bob> to have our own "namespace" so that pythonmac.org/wiki/FAQ can
Bob> still url rewrite to the right place.

Let me check on the python.org maintainers list and get back to you
(off-list unless there are others that care about these minutiae).

Skip

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.

[Skip Montanaro]

has> How about merging it into the python.org wiki? Let someone else do
has> all the hard work for a change.

That thought occurred to me right after I posted my earlier reply.  There
are several of us that keep a fairly close eye on the python.org wiki.  If
you want, I'm sure the option to move would be available.

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.

[Skip Montanaro]

>> http://pythonmac.org/wiki/TkAqua

Bob> Unfortunately I do.. but I don't really have time to deal with the
Bob> spam.  It has a defense in that existing pages can't be edited with
Bob> too many URLs, but creating new pages lets you use as many URLs as
Bob> you want.  I think I'd rather replace the installation with
Bob> something else or a newer version of MoinMoin before I go hacking
Bob> at it any more.

Bob,

I assume you're using MoinMoin 1.2.something.  There is a global Moin
anti-spam facility you can enable without too much trouble.  Take a look at
how that's managed for the python.org wiki:

http://www.python.org/moin/WikiSpam

That also includes a link to the main wiki page for that facility.

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] fink vs DarwinPorts?

[Skip Montanaro]

mwh> I think bash appeared with 10.3.  Or maybe 10.2.  

It was clearly there in 10.2.  That's my shell on my laptop.

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] fink vs DarwinPorts?

[Skip Montanaro]

>> Not to mention gcc...

Bob> I said "... until you install Developer Tools".  Mac OS X doesn't
Bob> ship stock with gcc.

Sorry, I missed that.  In any case, even if gcc isn't distributed by
default, it's certainly used to build everything, isn't it?

Skip

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] fink vs DarwinPorts?

[Skip Montanaro]

mwh> I think there's a fair bit actually -- gnutar, bash, gnumake...

Not to mention gcc...

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] [OT] To upgrade Mac OSX or not?

[Skip Montanaro]

Bob> It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to buy 10.3 now,
Bob> because 10.4 is definitely more than a few weeks away, but you
Bob> certainly wouldn't be getting "full value" from it because it's 15
Bob> months old (Oct 24 2003) already.

Where would an interested person find a log of release dates?

Skip

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] [OT] To upgrade Mac OSX or not?

[Skip Montanaro]

Thanks for all the responses w.r.t. upgrading Mac OSX.  My bad experience
was when migrating from 9->X on an older iMac.  It couldn't have been more
than a few weeks after buying 10.1 that 10.2 came out.  It just never dawned
on me at the time to do any sort of investigation of OSX release schedules.

It is heartening to know that the release interval is lengthening as the
system stabilizes and that there should be better 10.3->10.4 compatibility.
I haven't paid any attention to the temporal timing of OSX releases and
wouldn't have any idea how to find info if I was so inclined to do so.

Someone suggested I was complaining about having to pay for upgrades.
That's not really it at all.  I'm happy to pay Apple their due.  They have
an excellent product.  I was miffed that I paid my $99 (or whatever it was)
literally weeks before 10.2 came out.  I think it would have been wise for
Apple to include a coupon for a free or discounted upgrade to 10.2.  They
clearly knew its release was imminent.

Bob mentioned:

For Apple's own software (iTunes, Safari, etc.), they often support the
current release version minus one.  Apple supports older operating
systems by providing security updates, etc.

In fact I just upgraded to iTunes 4.7.1 on my 10.2 system this evening, so I
know it's possible for Apple to continue support of applications on "old"
versions of the OS.  I haven't seen a functional upgrade of Safari on that
OS in quite awhile though.  I suspect it has something to do with the fact
that iTunes represents a very lucrative revenue stream for Apple, while
Safari doesn't.

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] [OT] To upgrade Mac OSX or not?

[Skip Montanaro]

>> Am I missing something?

Charles> Umm . . . Software Update?

Software Update won't take me from 10.2 to 10.3.  I'm as Software Updated as
I can be on my laptop, but it's still 10.2.

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[Pythonmac-SIG] [OT] To upgrade Mac OSX or not?

[Skip Montanaro]

This is probably a bit off-topic for this list, but is the only Mac-specific
mailing list I subscribe to, and Mac OSX versioning seems to affect
MacPython and many apps built with it.  I was prompted to write after seeing
Brian Lenihan's post about PySol for Mac OSX.  Visiting the page I saw "10.3
only".  *sigh* Yet another app I can't run on my laptop.

Here's the rub.  Apple seems to rather quickly drop support for what appear
(numerically) to be minor releases.  10.1 is long gone.  I have 10.3 on my
G5 and 10.2 on my laptop.  I'm loathe to buy 10.3 at this point for my
laptop because 10.4 is in beta (right?  Apple offered a preview version of
10.4 to me for $500 recently).  I figure as soon as I buy 10.3, 10.4 final
will be released.  10.3 will start to corrode and I'll be stuck again with
"old" software once again.  Only now I have two Macs, so the costs are
double.

It seems that Apple's upgrade policy almost forces me to buy new versions as
soon as they are released.  If I snooze when new releases come out I quickly
get left in the dust and wind up either skipping a version or upgrading
right before the next release.  (This has happened to me in the past.)  I
really hate to say this, but in this respect backward compatibility in
Windows seems to be much better.  Am I missing something?

Thx,

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] The versioning question...

[Skip Montanaro]

Martin> If you really want side-by-side installation of different
Martin> versions, and a mechanism to select between them, the package
Martin> could support

Martin> import xml_0_8_2 as xml

Martin> IOW, "import-as" should be sufficient for what you want to achieve.

That's more-or-less the scheme adopted where I work.  If we have two
versions of a sybase module installed side-by-side, the imports might look
like:

import local.db.sybase.v1 as sybase

or

import local.db.sybase.v2 as sybase

It's a bit cumbersome, but it's worked okay for us so far.

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] The versioning question...

[Skip Montanaro]

>>> That doesn't fix the multiple versions problem.
>> 
>> This is a big issue that the core Pythonistas don't seem to be
>> interested in addressing. It's odd, because I think it's a no-brainer
>> that python modules need to be versioned, and there needs to be a way
>> to have multiple versions co-existing and user (that is code)
>> selectable.

has> Agree completely. I think the reason folk are reluctant to address
has> it isn't that it's an inherently hard problem, but that to solve it
has> now requires either 1. hard political decisions to achieve an easy
has> technical solution (i.e. a solution that's not backwards-compatible
has> with previous versions of Python and would require big changes to
has> the way that module-related tools and community operate), or
has> 2. difficult and costly technical solutions to obtain a politically
has> expedient answer.

There's more to it than that:

1. Most people simply don't need it.  My first brush with versioning
   Python modules occurred in the past few months at my current job, and
   that was mostly so our SWIG'd modules could be released in step with
   our locally written C++ libraries.  I used Python for ten years
   before that without ever feeling the need for versioning.

2. I think it will be challenging to come up with a versioning scheme
   that works for everyone.  To do versioning at work we had to solve
   issues related to module naming, directory structure, source code
   control and local build environment tools to make it work.

has> Alas, that's weird and wobbly and completely paradoxical world of
has> software for you  Oh well, maybe in Python 3000... ;)

Write a PEP and put it out for review.  I don't recall seeing this raised in
the Python community before.  I certainly don't think it's something the
core developers worry about, so maybe more "real world" input is necessary
to get it to fly.

Skip
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