Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Nehemiah Dacres]

 Python is implemented on OSX as a framework, go to
/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework and command click and choose show
package contents under the contextual menu and you will see the python
framework's insides.
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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Ian Baird]

Shared libraries and environments (such as python) that are used  
system wide are good candidates for "frameworkization". Wil was saying  
that private frameworks should probably be avoided.

Ian

On Nov 5, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Nehemiah Dacres wrote:

> I am not sure how Virtualenv works or why it's not working but you  
> make the statement
>
>
> >> Frameworks are IMHO a great idea.
>
> lets not be idiosyncratic here. Frameworks (if you mean *.framework  
> packages) are only used by apple because they are cumbersome to use  
> unless you are developing multiple applications that will share  
> libraries and code which will reduce memory usage if the programs  
> are used at the same time. (ei MS word)  (cite 
> http://wilshipley.com/blog/2005/11/frameworks-are-teh-suck-err.html) 
> . he also explains their downfalls and how to get around them as  
> well. Please don't skip any sections until you are fully convinced  
> otherwise (convinced that frameworks aren't a great idea
>
> On Nov 5, 2007 12:18 PM, Dethe Elza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Nov 5, 2007 10:10 AM, Ronald Oussoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> wrote:
> > That's partially because there's a large set of developers that only
> > test on Linux and then assume code will work everywhere :-/
>
> I'm guilty of that in reverse.  I only test on OS X and let Linux
> users fend for themselves until they get a sane packaging system like
> frameworks and bundles. ;-)
>
> --Dethe
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>
>
> -- 
>
> "lalalalala! it's not broken because I can use it"
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> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=194281&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=15927703
>  
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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Nehemiah Dacres]

I am not sure how Virtualenv works or why it's not working but you make the
statement

>> Frameworks are IMHO a great idea.

lets not be idiosyncratic here. Frameworks (if you mean *.framework
packages) are only used by apple because they are cumbersome to use unless
you are developing multiple applications that will share libraries and code
which will reduce memory usage if the programs are used at the same time.
(ei MS word)  (cite
http://wilshipley.com/blog/2005/11/frameworks-are-teh-suck-err.html). he
also explains their downfalls and how to get around them as well. Please
don't skip any sections until you are fully convinced otherwise (convinced
that frameworks aren't a great idea

On Nov 5, 2007 12:18 PM, Dethe Elza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Nov 5, 2007 10:10 AM, Ronald Oussoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That's partially because there's a large set of developers that only
> > test on Linux and then assume code will work everywhere :-/
>
> I'm guilty of that in reverse.  I only test on OS X and let Linux
> users fend for themselves until they get a sane packaging system like
> frameworks and bundles. ;-)
>
> --Dethe
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>



-- 

"lalalalala! it's not broken because I can use it"

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Dethe Elza]

On Nov 5, 2007 10:10 AM, Ronald Oussoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's partially because there's a large set of developers that only
> test on Linux and then assume code will work everywhere :-/

I'm guilty of that in reverse.  I only test on OS X and let Linux
users fend for themselves until they get a sane packaging system like
frameworks and bundles. ;-)

--Dethe
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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Ronald Oussoren]

On 5 Nov, 2007, at 19:09, Christopher Barker wrote:


Ronald Oussoren wrote:


Frameworks are IMHO a great idea.


I agree, it's just that we need to port everything else to work with  
them - it gets tedious.


That's partially because there's a large set of developers that only  
test on Linux and then assume code will work everywhere :-/


Ronald



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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Christopher Barker]

Ronald Oussoren wrote:

> Frameworks are IMHO a great idea.

I agree, it's just that we need to port everything else to work with 
them - it gets tedious.

> The problems with virtualenv are probably shallow,

Let's hope so.

That comment was born of frustration from another project (GDAL) -- 
apparently libtool doesn't do Frameworks right.

-Chris


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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Ronald Oussoren]

On 5 Nov, 2007, at 18:08, Christopher Barker wrote:


Ronald Oussoren wrote:

Virtualenv almost but not quite works on OSX.


Well, darn.

I think Frameworks are a great idea, but as no one but Apple uses  
them,

I"m really starting to think that they are not worth the effort.

Sometimes, "thinking different" isn't such a great idea.


Frameworks are IMHO a great idea. Furthermore, I like the way a  
framework builds finds sys.prefix nicer than how a normal unix build  
does this because it will find the right sys.prefix even when you copy  
the interpreter executable to a different location. That makes live  
harder for something like virtual-env, but not too much and you only  
have to engeneer this once.


The problems with virtualenv are probably shallow, I just haven't had  
time to look at them yet.


Ronald




Oh well,

-Chris




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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Christopher Barker]

Ronald Oussoren wrote:
> Virtualenv almost but not quite works on OSX.

Well, darn.

I think Frameworks are a great idea, but as no one but Apple uses them, 
I"m really starting to think that they are not worth the effort.

Sometimes, "thinking different" isn't such a great idea.

Oh well,

-Chris




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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Ronald Oussoren]

On 2 Nov, 2007, at 12:32, Kent Johnson wrote:


Christopher Barker wrote:
I suppose this may be a time to take a good look at workingenv  
again...


Or virtualenv which has replaced workingenv:
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv


Virtualenv almost but not quite works on OSX. I've donated the code  
that deals with framework installs, but it turns out that activating  
those environments only works in some situations. Either calling the  
activate using a relative path worksor it works using an absolute  
path, but not both.


Yet another challenge :-)

Ronald



Kent
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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Nicholas Riley]

On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 01:06:08PM -0700, Christopher Barker wrote:
> Ned Deily wrote:
> > The easiest way is to use the install_requires keyword in setup.py.  See 
> > the setuptools documentation here:
> > 
> >  
> 
> That appears to handle dependencies:
> 
> install_requires
> A string or list of strings specifying what other distributions need to 
> be installed when this one is. See the section below on Declaring 
> Dependencies for details and examples of the format of this argument.
> 
> Which looks quite dangerous, as a matter of fact. For example, I do
> 
> easy_install foo
> 
> foo has install_requires("numpy==1.0.3")
> 
> now setuptools will download and install numpy1.0.3, but it won't get 
> used, 'cause there is an older numpy earlier on the pythonpath.

From
:

> Any scripts in your project will be installed with wrappers that
> verify the availability of the specified dependencies at runtime, and
> ensure that the correct versions are added to sys.path (e.g. if
> multiple versions have been installed).

setuptools definitely supports multiple versions of packages being
installed at once, and the ability to select them.  It rewrites your
scripts for you at installation time to resolve the depdendencies.  If
you want to use the versioned dependencies during development, that's
what 'setup.py develop' is for.

-- 
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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Robert Kern]

Christopher Barker wrote:
> Ned Deily wrote:
>> The easiest way is to use the install_requires keyword in setup.py.  See 
>> the setuptools documentation here:
>>
>>  
> 
> That appears to handle dependencies:
> 
> install_requires
> A string or list of strings specifying what other distributions need to 
> be installed when this one is. See the section below on Declaring 
> Dependencies for details and examples of the format of this argument.
> 
> Which looks quite dangerous, as a matter of fact. For example, I do
> 
> easy_install foo
> 
> foo has install_requires("numpy==1.0.3")
> 
> now setuptools will download and install numpy1.0.3, but it won't get 
> used, 'cause there is an older numpy earlier on the pythonpath.

This is incorrect. sys.path gets modified appropriately.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Christopher Barker]

Ned Deily wrote:
> The easiest way is to use the install_requires keyword in setup.py.  See 
> the setuptools documentation here:
> 
>  

That appears to handle dependencies:

install_requires
A string or list of strings specifying what other distributions need to 
be installed when this one is. See the section below on Declaring 
Dependencies for details and examples of the format of this argument.

Which looks quite dangerous, as a matter of fact. For example, I do

easy_install foo

foo has install_requires("numpy==1.0.3")

now setuptools will download and install numpy1.0.3, but it won't get 
used, 'cause there is an older numpy earlier on the pythonpath.


Anyway, I won't looking for dependency management, I was looking for 
runtime version management: i.e have numpy1.0.2 and numpy1.0.3 both 
installed, and specify in a given script which one I want to use. If 
there's a way to do that, then when you develop and test, you specify 
which numpy to use, if you, or another user has multiple versions 
installed, the correct one is use. wxPython handles this with a custom 
system:

import wxversion
wxversion.select('2.4')

or, if you've tested against more than one version:

wxversion.select(['2.5.4', '2.5.5', '2.6'])

I think PyGtk has a similar system

If this was a universal python package feature, and people used it, a 
lot of these problems would go away.

oh well, I got little support for this a few years ago, I doubt it will 
change now. I think virtualenv may be the answer -- and maybe it's a 
better one anyway -- I'll have to give it a shot.

-Chris



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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Brian Granger]

This is definitely worth looking at for this type of thing.  Thanks
for the pointer.

Brian

On 11/2/07, Kent Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Christopher Barker wrote:
> > I suppose this may be a time to take a good look at workingenv again...
>
> Or virtualenv which has replaced workingenv:
> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv
>
> Kent
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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Kent Johnson]

Christopher Barker wrote:
> I suppose this may be a time to take a good look at workingenv again...

Or virtualenv which has replaced workingenv:
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv

Kent
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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Ned Deily]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 Christopher Barker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ned Deily wrote:
> > Ah, but there is a de-facto standard multi-platform Python versioning 
> > system out there in ever increasing use:  setuptools (a.k.a 
> > easy_install).
> OK I've heard eggs support versioning, but I've never actually seen it 
> used --how do you specify which version of a package you want to use 
> with setuptools?

The easiest way is to use the install_requires keyword in setup.py.  See 
the setuptools documentation here:

 

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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Christopher Barker]

Ned Deily wrote:
> Ah, but there is a de-facto standard multi-platform Python versioning 
> system out there in ever increasing use:  setuptools (a.k.a 
> easy_install).

OK I've heard eggs support versioning, but I've never actually seen it 
used --how do you specify which version of a package you want to use 
with setuptools?


> Apple strongly encourages the use of application packages and the tools 
> provided for Python on OSX, i.e. py2app, make it easy for developers to 
> provide robust, stand-alone applications without dependencies on shared 
> libraries.

py2app is fabulous, and I do use it. It makes lots of sense when 
delivering a substantial application, but not so much sense when you 
have a bunch of small utilities -- it just "feels wrong" to build a 25MB 
package to a 200 line utility. (and a lot of folks don't appreciate 
getting a 25MB email enclosure!)

It's also a pain in the patootie when you're developing.

I suppose this may be a time to take a good look at workingenv again...

-Chris


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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Problem with numpy on Leopard

[Ned Deily]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 Christopher Barker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...] AARRGG!
> [...]
> Hence Roberts solution: treat the Apple Python as a system only tool, 
> only to be added to by Apple themselves. I guess that's OK, but it's 
> really silly that it has to be that way.
> 
> The solution: support versioning of packages in python! This came up 
> some years ago, when wxPython developed a versioning system -- it would 
> have made much more sense for their to be a standard way to do it, but 
> the core folks on python-dev didn't see the point. oh well.

Ah, but there is a de-facto standard multi-platform Python versioning 
system out there in ever increasing use:  setuptools (a.k.a 
easy_install).  It's just *not* *quite* there yet, as in not yet being 
in the standard library.  Still, it is designed to be easily 
bootstrapped into vanilla systems, it has the best chance of making it 
there of anything else out there, and the fact that it is 
plug-compatible with distutils for most applications is a huge plus.

> The way I see it, python is a very good, robust, general purpose tool. 
> It's a great thing for OS suppliers to provide python for system and 
> users use -- I'd love to see it treated as other system libraries and 
> utilities are, but to do that, there must be a versioning system for 
> packages -- so Apple can use the version they installed, and a user can 
> install and upgrade along side it, and not break anything.
> 
> It's analygous to shared libraries -- it's insane to use shared libs 
> without versions - we'd have to statically link everything. Having to 
> install all of Python, and all those packages because you want to 
> upgrade numpy just seems crazy.

There's another way to look at the issue in the OSX world, though.  
Apple strongly encourages the use of application packages and the tools 
provided for Python on OSX, i.e. py2app, make it easy for developers to 
provide robust, stand-alone applications without dependencies on shared 
libraries.  Yes, that may lead to some wasted disk space, with multiple 
copies of otherwise potentially sharable libraries hidden under the 
covers of the application, but delivering a stand-alone application via 
a single drag-and-drop disk image rather than with an installer that has 
to manage library dependencies makes the extra disk space a small price 
to pay.  Or, at least, that's what we're encouraged to believe.  I do 
after seeing problems like the one you're wrestling with now.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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