Re: [QGIS-Developer] [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse
Hi Greg, On Wed, 03. Apr 2024 at 18:23:47 -0400, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User wrote: > People like me tend not to be happy about things turning into forums and are > likely to participate less. As an example, openstreetmap moved from > mailinglists to forums and I have not, so I interract far far less and spend > more time on other things. I am probably somewhat unusual (started doing > email in the 70s), and here probably only strk thinks I"m normal :-) Just for the record: I also don't like the move, I also feel the same pain and I also think you're normal. To make it worse the advertised discourse mailing list option apparently doesn't work well - at least for "normal" people (see https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3073). Jürgen -- Jürgen E. Fischer Dipl.-Inf. (FH) norBIT GmbH Tel. +49-4931-918175-31 Software Engineer Rheinstraße 13Fax. +49-4931-918175-50 Geschäftsführer D-26506 Norden https://www.norbit.de signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse
What I meant mostly is two things: People like me tend not to be happy about things turning into forums and are likely to participate less. As an example, openstreetmap moved from mailinglists to forums and I have not, so I interract far far less and spend more time on other things. I am probably somewhat unusual (started doing email in the 70s), and here probably only strk thinks I"m normal :-) My perception, perhaps off base, is that discourse facilitates people showing up, posting a question, and getting replies to the question, without also getting delivered to them everything else on the "mailing list". Thus I expect a lot more help desk type interactions, where new people ask a question and don't really engage, rather than joining the community. Many projects have communities of long-term participants who get to know each other. Partly from on-list, but partly from off-list converstations which are enabled by getting emails with the other person's email address. I don't see this happening in a discourse world. I'm not arguing there are no mechanisms and that people could not make it happen. I am saying that I expect it to happen much less in practice. I don't have any good ideas about the first pointl. The second point could be addressed by allowing web signup, but allowing posting only if one has email delivery of all messages, and having the From: address be the person, and not breaking DKIM signatures. In short, having the email interface be a first-class non-broken mailinglist, while also having a forum view. (I've dropped psc because it doesn't allow non-members to send.) ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse
[kept only on qgis-developer] On Wed, Apr 03, 2024 at 09:14:47PM +0200, Régis Haubourg via QGIS-Developer wrote: > - I just don't see any usage difference once I changed my settings from the > default digest setting to "one mail per interaction" I do: - Lack of real sender email: https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3072 - Bogus text/plain rendering: https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3073 - Loss of GPS signatures: https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3109 - Unconventional quoting: https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/3119 Some of them have been reported upstream but there wasn't much action there. Since then, I admit, I stopped testing it, so don't know if anything was fixed. --strk; signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
[QGIS-Developer] Using debugvs in QGIS 3.34.4
I recently installed QGIS 3.34.4, but when I run the debugger I received the error below. DebugVS: Need install ptvsd: pip3 install ptvsd I checked using pip list and see I have installed ptvsd 4.3.2 installed. I checked the DebugVS plugin install and noted it stated: For use, run this plugin and enable the Debug (Python:Attach) in Visual Studio. Need install the debugpy's module(pip3 install debugpy). I installed debugpy and now when I run Enable Debug for Visual Studio, it launches a completely new instance of QGIS and then the first instance of QGIS gives the error: RuntimeError: timed out waiting for adapter to connect In 3.16.16, I just ran the debugger in QGIS and hit F5 in VS Code and things just worked. ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse
Hi Greg, Of course you are free to react ! I'm interested in understanding why you feel this would reduce engagement. I've been testing Discourse a lot in the past years. From french spaces around open data and numeric commons, to a first test with QGIS french user lists. What I have observed is : - new users jump in more easily than with our obscure mailing list habits. - I just don't see any usage difference once I changed my settings from the default digest setting to "one mail per interaction" - it is a lot easier to subscribe to a category than to subscribe in mailman to a new mailing list. - finding topics via search engine is so much more normal. Remember we needed Nabble to offer this and it was not an easy experience. And Nabble died. - as a list administror, mailman backoffice interface does not make it easy. It has been designed in the early stages of the web. This is so hard to understand, read and maintain. And don't try on a phone. On the downsides, I just had to explore notification settings and understand how categories work a bit more than I would have expected. But a lot less time than the numerous hours struggling with mailman admin interfaces. So if you have tangible ideas or facts we are really interested. Discourse is open source and really full of features, settings or plugins to tune it to our needs. Cheers Régis Le mer. 3 avr. 2024, 17:34, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User < qgis-u...@lists.osgeo.org> a écrit : > Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User writes: > > > With this move, we hope that we can counter the current fragmentation > > and streamline our discussions. Please fell free to react. > > I'm unhappy about this, as I suspect are others who have been in the > Free Software world a long time. I expect that this will lead to > reduced engagement by the longer-term-FS people. Part of this is that > tools that encourage post-and-only-see-answers lead to a help desk > feeling that than a community. > > I don't expect to be listened to in any serious way, but you said "feel > free to react" :-) > ___ > QGIS-User mailing list > qgis-u...@lists.osgeo.org > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user > ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] [Qgis-user] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse
Régis Haubourg via QGIS-User writes: > With this move, we hope that we can counter the current fragmentation > and streamline our discussions. Please fell free to react. I'm unhappy about this, as I suspect are others who have been in the Free Software world a long time. I expect that this will lead to reduced engagement by the longer-term-FS people. Part of this is that tools that encourage post-and-only-see-answers lead to a help desk feeling that than a community. I don't expect to be listened to in any serious way, but you said "feel free to react" :-) ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
[QGIS-Developer] Announce - migrate our mailing lists to Discourse
[Message sent to all QGIS's lists. Sorry for crossposting - **please reply only in PSC list** ] Hi all, as you may know, we traditionally use mailing lists a lot in QGIS project as well as for other OSGEO projects. All those mailing lists are server by mailman, a venerable piece of code written by Richard Stallman. Those mailing lists are hosted by OSGEO team (System Administration Committee known as SAC). Mailman is end of life and all FOSS project are looking to its successor , like GNOME project for instance [0] . Additionally, mailing lists are not used anymore by younger folks. Reason for this are numerous, from competition with instant messenger tools, the lack of a nice responsive interface, difficulty to search and explore mails on the web, or simply because the monopolistic Outlook client does not make it easy to use mailing list correctly. OSGEO team has deployed a Discourse instance, and after 4 months of tests with some early adopter -like QGIS-FR list - we think the project is mature enough to start discussing about migrating QGIS's main lists. With this move, we hope that we can counter the current fragmentation and streamline our discussions. Please fell free to react. Any help in this migration move will be more than welcome, from testing and spreading the word, to buying a beer after this move ;-) ## What is Discourse ? Discourse [1] is an open source only project built to support community discussions, started in 2013 and thought to address the gap between dying mailing list, forums and the rising instant messenger tools dragging all discussions into private and locked-in spaces. It allows advanced moderation, advanced notification settings, and is thought to streamline discussions. It is already used by tons of community projects, you probably already know it, from Gnome to Mozilla. Want to have a look ? The already migrated lists are there : https://discourse.osgeo.org/ ## What are the benefits of using Discourse ? It is searchable on the web, and can be explored lot better than our mailman archives. It is extremely easy to subscribe to a category. No more need to have one subscription per list. Receiving mails and answering from your mail client is fully supported. You can copy paste images, videos, code and can react via emojis. There is a basic instant chat, based on matrix. We prefer at this stage to use a dedicated channel to avoid confusion. (We are already present on IRC and Matrix - see [3] ) ## What if I prefer mailing lists ? Discourse offers options that are very close to mailing lists. See Mozilla's tutorial : https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/how-do-i-use-discourse-via-email/15279 ## What calendar and steps for this migration ? With the System Administration Committee we agreed to : - Prepare archive import for a zero downtime migration in June. - Start with PSC list first, which is smaller - Announce the several times for a month we are going to switch, and ask everyone to create an account on Discourse via OSGEO LDAP connector. Channels will be lists themselves, blog, QGIS desktop feed, and asks for communities and user groups to relay in their dedicated channels. - Do some tutorials about how to handle notifications and advanced options - Do the switch list per list during june - Put old mailing list in archive mode with disclaimers. ## What about private lists ? We currently have private lists like QGIS-voting-members or PSC-Private. We did not tested this yet, but Discourse has options for this [2] Any thought from you is more than welcome, from ranting against modernity to thanking SAC for their hard work. Best regards , Régis on behalf of your beloved PSC [0]https://discourse.gnome.org/t/common-questions-re-mailman-to-discourse/11841 [1] https://www.discourse.org/ [2] https://meta.discourse.org/t/understanding-groups-and-category-permissions-security-settings/87678 ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
