Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Saber Razmjooei]

In addition to what Even mentioned, QGIS might also hit some performance
issues/bugs on the new platform. For example, the rule-based rendering with
expressions that contains LIKE will make QGIS project completely unusable
on iOS:
https://github.com/lutraconsulting/input/issues/433

This could be an inefficient way of how the expression engine handles LIKE
and has not shown up in other platforms. So in addition to making the
binaries available, we should be prepared for some strange new issues
propping up on the new platform!

Kind regards
Saber



On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 14:51, Andreas Neumann  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Yes, I also heard about the better energy efficiency of the arm processor.
> That's probably the main reason why typical mobile devices almost never run
> on Intel processors. What effect the change to arm will have performance
> wise, esp. when libraries aren't yet optimized for that processor, is
> another matter.
>
> Even already confirmed that some gdal algorithms are optimized for Intel
> only, so far.
>
> And it will be significant work for some (Peter?) and will probably need
> additional funding to do this work.
>
> I don't blame Apple on this. It's a good move if hardware will go greener
> because of this. But I expect QGIS to perform worse on MacOS arm because of
> this change initially, until more optimizations towards arm processors are
> in place.
>
> Andreas
> Am 24.06.20 um 15:20 schrieb Tim Sutton:
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> On 24 Jun 2020, at 11:52, Andreas Neumann  wrote:
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> Thanks for this feedback.
>
> I remember when Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel that they had kind of
> compatibility/abstraction layer that allowed old software to work on the
> new intel platform. Are there similar plans with the switch to arm?
>
>
> Yes they will support application bundles that ship both ARM and Intel
> architecture (“Universal Binary”) - see
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_binary
>
> They will continue to support their Intel based machines for years to come
> (no specific end of life indicated yet that I have seen) but they expect
> all new hardware to be sold to be based on ARM within 2 years.
>
> I wouldn’t bash Apple on this - Intel have been slow at rolling out small
> nanometer architectures and the whole world is moving towards ARM - Windows
> is already available for ARM though they kinda fluffed it. Plus they are a
> company who likes to periodically advance their platform with breaking
> changes - just like we did going from QGIS 2 to QGIS 3.
>
> Apple are good at making their developer tools work nicely at compiling
> software for the hardware they support. Since long ago Marco Bernasocchi
> started making QGIS ARM friendly, hence QGIS for Android, QField and INPUT.
>
> For me I welcome this - the ARM chips will use less power when under low
> loads (better green footprint) and the new platform promises being able to
> run iOS apps directly on macOS so e.g. we can run INPUT straight on the
> desktop if we want to use a lightweight QGIS (ok yes I know INPUT could
> already be compiled for macOS but not run using the same package as iOS
> built one).
>
> Regards
>
> Tim
>
>
> Andreas
> Am 24.06.20 um 11:53 schrieb Peter Petrik:
>
> Hi,
>
> As building on iOS already works (
> https://github.com/lutraconsulting/input-sdk/tree/master/ios), I imagine
> it would be possible to  run another architecture build for MacOS with a
> similar approach. It is in Apple's interest to facilitate transition to
> developers. To evaluate how hard it would be, that is more tricky at this
> point. First of all, Qt has to support this new architecture, I haven't
> found a statement from them yet if they plan it and when. So even Qt
> supports it (hopefully from Qt5 releases and not Qt6), we have to build all
> the deps with the new architecture, which takes some time to create
> recipes. And of course find a hardware where it all can be built (probably
> another machine , yes). Not saying that it is very frustrating to do
> development of such a new package if you do not own such hardware
> yourself...
>
> P.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:33 AM Régis Haubourg 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Andreas,
>> I'm also worried about this move.
>>
>> But one way to forward the cost to Apple is now to stop buying macs.
>> Sorry to troll, but the vendor lockin' nightmare they are building is not
>> of the same nature as of the powerpc era.
>> I sold mine because they stopped to support it though it worked very well
>> on the hardware side. And switching to linux on Mac is made hard on
>> purpose.. > never again for me, even if they do really good stuff.
>> I found in LENOVO some durable hardware, easy to repair, hardware that
>> works nicely and avoid me to trash a working computer.
>> Best
>> Régis
>>
>>
>> Le mer. 24 juin 2020 à 11:11, Andreas Neumann  a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> Hi all, esp. Peter,
>>>
>>> So I wonder what the new announcement of Apple switching everything from
>>> Intel to arm architecture will 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Andreas Neumann]

Hi,

Yes, I also heard about the better energy efficiency of the arm 
processor. That's probably the main reason why typical mobile devices 
almost never run on Intel processors. What effect the change to arm will 
have performance wise, esp. when libraries aren't yet optimized for that 
processor, is another matter.


Even already confirmed that some gdal algorithms are optimized for Intel 
only, so far.


And it will be significant work for some (Peter?) and will probably need 
additional funding to do this work.


I don't blame Apple on this. It's a good move if hardware will go 
greener because of this. But I expect QGIS to perform worse on MacOS arm 
because of this change initially, until more optimizations towards arm 
processors are in place.


Andreas

Am 24.06.20 um 15:20 schrieb Tim Sutton:

Hi



On 24 Jun 2020, at 11:52, Andreas Neumann > wrote:


Hi Peter,

Thanks for this feedback.

I remember when Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel that they had 
kind of compatibility/abstraction layer that allowed old software to 
work on the new intel platform. Are there similar plans with the 
switch to arm?





Yes they will support application bundles that ship both ARM and Intel 
architecture (“Universal Binary”) - see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_binary


They will continue to support their Intel based machines for years to 
come (no specific end of life indicated yet that I have seen) but they 
expect all new hardware to be sold to be based on ARM within 2 years.


I wouldn’t bash Apple on this - Intel have been slow at rolling out 
small nanometer architectures and the whole world is moving towards 
ARM - Windows is already available for ARM though they kinda fluffed 
it. Plus they are a company who likes to periodically advance their 
platform with breaking changes - just like we did going from QGIS 2 to 
QGIS 3.


Apple are good at making their developer tools work nicely at 
compiling software for the hardware they support. Since long ago Marco 
Bernasocchi started making QGIS ARM friendly, hence QGIS for Android, 
QField and INPUT.


For me I welcome this - the ARM chips will use less power when under 
low loads (better green footprint) and the new platform promises being 
able to run iOS apps directly on macOS so e.g. we can run INPUT 
straight on the desktop if we want to use a lightweight QGIS (ok yes I 
know INPUT could already be compiled for macOS but not run using the 
same package as iOS built one).


Regards

Tim



Andreas

Am 24.06.20 um 11:53 schrieb Peter Petrik:

Hi,

As building on iOS already works 
(https://github.com/lutraconsulting/input-sdk/tree/master/ios), I 
imagine it would be possible to  run another architecture build for 
MacOS with a similar approach. It is in Apple's interest to 
facilitate transition to developers. To evaluate how hard it would 
be, that is more tricky at this point. First of all, Qt has to 
support this new architecture, I haven't found a statement from them 
yet if they plan it and when. So even Qt supports it (hopefully from 
Qt5 releases and not Qt6), we have to build all the deps with the 
new architecture, which takes some time to create recipes. And of 
course find a hardware where it all can be built (probably another 
machine , yes). Not saying that it is very frustrating to do 
development of such a new package if you do not own such hardware 
yourself...


P.


On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:33 AM Régis Haubourg 
mailto:regis.haubo...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Andreas,
I'm also worried about this move.

But one way to forward the cost to Apple is now to stop buying
macs.
Sorry to troll, but the vendor lockin' nightmare they are
building is not of the same nature as of the powerpc era.
I sold mine because they stopped to support it though it worked
very well on the hardware side. And switching to linux on Mac is
made hard on purpose.. > never again for me, even if they do
really good stuff.
I found in LENOVO some durable hardware, easy to repair,
hardware that works nicely and avoid me to trash a working
computer.
Best
Régis


Le mer. 24 juin 2020 à 11:11, Andreas Neumann
mailto:a.neum...@carto.net>> a écrit :

Hi all, esp. Peter,

So I wonder what the new announcement of Apple switching
everything from Intel to arm architecture will mean for our
project? According to Apple they will switch all of their
devices to arm over the next 2 years.

Will it be a lot of work to adapt the build system to the
new processor architecture? It will probably mean that we
will need an additional Mac build server for arm
architecture in our infrastructure and will have to provide
packages for both systems for many years to come ...

Not so nice for us as a project - can we forward these costs
to Apple for that move?

Greetings,
Andreas

 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Even Rouault]

On mercredi 24 juin 2020 11:53:37 CEST Peter Petrik wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As building on iOS already works (
> https://github.com/lutraconsulting/input-sdk/tree/master/ios), I imagine it
> would be possible to  run another architecture build for MacOS with a
> similar approach. It is in Apple's interest to facilitate transition to
> developers. To evaluate how hard it would be, that is more tricky at this
> point. First of all, Qt has to support this new architecture, I haven't
> found a statement from them yet if they plan it and when. So even Qt
> supports it (hopefully from Qt5 releases and not Qt6), we have to build all
> the deps with the new architecture, which takes some time to create
> recipes. And of course find a hardware where it all can be built (probably
> another machine , yes). Not saying that it is very frustrating to do
> development of such a new package if you do not own such hardware
> yourself...

One point I've in mind with my GDAL hat on is that GDAL has a number of x86 
specific speed 
optimizations using SIMD intrinsincs in warping/reprojection resampling, 
overview/rasterio 
resampling, statistics computation, hillshading, gdalgrid. Currently we have no 
accelaration 
for other architectures.

Even

-- 
Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
http://www.spatialys.com
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Stefan Steiger]

Hi,

Well, Linux systems for ARM have existed for ages NOW.
Simply put, the energy consumption of ARM devices is far lower than intel’s 
crap.
That’s why Apple is doing it, they have announced that intention years ago.
Microsoft has started shipping tables for ARM, too, btw.
Though, MS is not quite there, yet, and they probably never will be, not within 
the next few years at least.

You can do cross-compile builds with CLANG/LLVM on a 250$ Chromebook using 
OSXcross.
https://github.com/tpoechtrager/osxcross
Chromebooks are the easiest commercially obtainable ARM-computers nowadays.
Switch to developer mode, install Crouton with ARM-Ubuntu in a chroot, and 
there you go.
Or install Chrubuntu if you don’t want to use the kernel of the underlying 
ChromeOS.
Using Chrubuntu, you might have trouble with drivers, though.

That worked for me; mono (.NET) and Java work on ARM, too.

PS:
Why not simply ship a Linux-Docker-Image for ARM processors ?
It is my understanding Linux Docker images work on OSX.
Certainly would work for server components.
GUI might be a different chapter, but since OSX can do X11 ...
Not sure how Wayland would play into that, though.

The most intelligent way would be dropping the proprietary Desktop-GUIs anyway.
Switching to a web-based editor.
Then you can drop everything but Linux, and just ship docker containers.
Users connect via browser.
Saves a lot of work.
Also a lot more secure.

All you need to ship per platform then is an icon and a startup 
link/shell-script.



Von: QGIS-Developer  Im Auftrag von 
Andreas Neumann
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020 11:11
An: QGIS Developers List 
Betreff: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm


Hi all, esp. Peter,

So I wonder what the new announcement of Apple switching everything from Intel 
to arm architecture will mean for our project? According to Apple they will 
switch all of their devices to arm over the next 2 years.

Will it be a lot of work to adapt the build system to the new processor 
architecture? It will probably mean that we will need an additional Mac build 
server for arm architecture in our infrastructure and will have to provide 
packages for both systems for many years to come ...

Not so nice for us as a project - can we forward these costs to Apple for that 
move?

Greetings,
Andreas
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Tim Sutton]

Hi



> On 24 Jun 2020, at 11:52, Andreas Neumann  wrote:
> 
> Hi Peter,
> 
> Thanks for this feedback.
> 
> I remember when Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel that they had kind of 
> compatibility/abstraction layer that allowed old software to work on the new 
> intel platform. Are there similar plans with the switch to arm?
> 
> 

Yes they will support application bundles that ship both ARM and Intel 
architecture (“Universal Binary”) - see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_binary

They will continue to support their Intel based machines for years to come (no 
specific end of life indicated yet that I have seen) but they expect all new 
hardware to be sold to be based on ARM within 2 years.

I wouldn’t bash Apple on this - Intel have been slow at rolling out small 
nanometer architectures and the whole world is moving towards ARM - Windows is 
already available for ARM though they kinda fluffed it. Plus they are a company 
who likes to periodically advance their platform with breaking changes - just 
like we did going from QGIS 2 to QGIS 3.

Apple are good at making their developer tools work nicely at compiling 
software for the hardware they support. Since long ago Marco Bernasocchi 
started making QGIS ARM friendly, hence QGIS for Android, QField and INPUT.

For me I welcome this - the ARM chips will use less power when under low loads 
(better green footprint) and the new platform promises being able to run iOS 
apps directly on macOS so e.g. we can run INPUT straight on the desktop if we 
want to use a lightweight QGIS (ok yes I know INPUT could already be compiled 
for macOS but not run using the same package as iOS built one).

Regards

Tim


> Andreas
> 
> Am 24.06.20 um 11:53 schrieb Peter Petrik:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> As building on iOS already works 
>> (https://github.com/lutraconsulting/input-sdk/tree/master/ios 
>> ), I imagine 
>> it would be possible to  run another architecture build for MacOS with a 
>> similar approach. It is in Apple's interest to facilitate transition to 
>> developers. To evaluate how hard it would be, that is more tricky at this 
>> point. First of all, Qt has to support this new architecture, I haven't 
>> found a statement from them yet if they plan it and when. So even Qt 
>> supports it (hopefully from Qt5 releases and not Qt6), we have to build all 
>> the deps with the new architecture, which takes some time to create recipes. 
>> And of course find a hardware where it all can be built (probably another 
>> machine , yes). Not saying that it is very frustrating to do development of 
>> such a new package if you do not own such hardware yourself...
>> 
>> P. 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:33 AM Régis Haubourg > > wrote:
>> Hi Andreas, 
>> I'm also worried about this move.
>> 
>> But one way to forward the cost to Apple is now to stop buying macs. 
>> Sorry to troll, but the vendor lockin' nightmare they are building is not of 
>> the same nature as of the powerpc era. 
>> I sold mine because they stopped to support it though it worked very well on 
>> the hardware side. And switching to linux on Mac is made hard on purpose.. > 
>> never again for me, even if they do really good stuff. 
>> I found in LENOVO some durable hardware, easy to repair, hardware that works 
>> nicely and avoid me to trash a working computer.  
>> Best
>> Régis
>> 
>> 
>> Le mer. 24 juin 2020 à 11:11, Andreas Neumann > > a écrit :
>> Hi all, esp. Peter,
>> 
>> So I wonder what the new announcement of Apple switching everything from 
>> Intel to arm architecture will mean for our project? According to Apple they 
>> will switch all of their devices to arm over the next 2 years.
>> 
>> Will it be a lot of work to adapt the build system to the new processor 
>> architecture? It will probably mean that we will need an additional Mac 
>> build server for arm architecture in our infrastructure and will have to 
>> provide packages for both systems for many years to come ...
>> 
>> Not so nice for us as a project - can we forward these costs to Apple for 
>> that move?
>> 
>> Greetings,
>> Andreas
>> 
>> ___
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>> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer 
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>> 
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Greg Troxel]

Surely the code ought to all build on arm64 (and earmv7, sparc, sparc64,
RISC-V, and many others).  If not it needs fixing anyway.

(No disagreement with your points about CI and build servers.)

I suspect there will be a lot of aarch64 and RISC-V hardare in the open
source world over the next few years.
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Andreas Neumann]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for this feedback.

I remember when Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel that they had kind 
of compatibility/abstraction layer that allowed old software to work on 
the new intel platform. Are there similar plans with the switch to arm?


Andreas

Am 24.06.20 um 11:53 schrieb Peter Petrik:

Hi,

As building on iOS already works 
(https://github.com/lutraconsulting/input-sdk/tree/master/ios), I 
imagine it would be possible to  run another architecture build for 
MacOS with a similar approach. It is in Apple's interest to facilitate 
transition to developers. To evaluate how hard it would be, that is 
more tricky at this point. First of all, Qt has to support this new 
architecture, I haven't found a statement from them yet if they plan 
it and when. So even Qt supports it (hopefully from Qt5 releases and 
not Qt6), we have to build all the deps with the new architecture, 
which takes some time to create recipes. And of course find a hardware 
where it all can be built (probably another machine , yes). Not saying 
that it is very frustrating to do development of such a new package if 
you do not own such hardware yourself...


P.


On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:33 AM Régis Haubourg 
mailto:regis.haubo...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Andreas,
I'm also worried about this move.

But one way to forward the cost to Apple is now to stop buying macs.
Sorry to troll, but the vendor lockin' nightmare they are building
is not of the same nature as of the powerpc era.
I sold mine because they stopped to support it though it worked
very well on the hardware side. And switching to linux on Mac is
made hard on purpose.. > never again for me, even if they do
really good stuff.
I found in LENOVO some durable hardware, easy to repair, hardware
that works nicely and avoid me to trash a working computer.
Best
Régis


Le mer. 24 juin 2020 à 11:11, Andreas Neumann mailto:a.neum...@carto.net>> a écrit :

Hi all, esp. Peter,

So I wonder what the new announcement of Apple switching
everything from Intel to arm architecture will mean for our
project? According to Apple they will switch all of their
devices to arm over the next 2 years.

Will it be a lot of work to adapt the build system to the new
processor architecture? It will probably mean that we will
need an additional Mac build server for arm architecture in
our infrastructure and will have to provide packages for both
systems for many years to come ...

Not so nice for us as a project - can we forward these costs
to Apple for that move?

Greetings,
Andreas

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Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Peter Petrik]

Hi,

As building on iOS already works (
https://github.com/lutraconsulting/input-sdk/tree/master/ios), I imagine it
would be possible to  run another architecture build for MacOS with a
similar approach. It is in Apple's interest to facilitate transition to
developers. To evaluate how hard it would be, that is more tricky at this
point. First of all, Qt has to support this new architecture, I haven't
found a statement from them yet if they plan it and when. So even Qt
supports it (hopefully from Qt5 releases and not Qt6), we have to build all
the deps with the new architecture, which takes some time to create
recipes. And of course find a hardware where it all can be built (probably
another machine , yes). Not saying that it is very frustrating to do
development of such a new package if you do not own such hardware
yourself...

P.


On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:33 AM Régis Haubourg 
wrote:

> Hi Andreas,
> I'm also worried about this move.
>
> But one way to forward the cost to Apple is now to stop buying macs.
> Sorry to troll, but the vendor lockin' nightmare they are building is not
> of the same nature as of the powerpc era.
> I sold mine because they stopped to support it though it worked very well
> on the hardware side. And switching to linux on Mac is made hard on
> purpose.. > never again for me, even if they do really good stuff.
> I found in LENOVO some durable hardware, easy to repair, hardware that
> works nicely and avoid me to trash a working computer.
> Best
> Régis
>
>
> Le mer. 24 juin 2020 à 11:11, Andreas Neumann  a
> écrit :
>
>> Hi all, esp. Peter,
>>
>> So I wonder what the new announcement of Apple switching everything from
>> Intel to arm architecture will mean for our project? According to Apple
>> they will switch all of their devices to arm over the next 2 years.
>>
>> Will it be a lot of work to adapt the build system to the new processor
>> architecture? It will probably mean that we will need an additional Mac
>> build server for arm architecture in our infrastructure and will have to
>> provide packages for both systems for many years to come ...
>>
>> Not so nice for us as a project - can we forward these costs to Apple for
>> that move?
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Andreas
>> ___
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Régis Haubourg]

Hi Andreas,
I'm also worried about this move.

But one way to forward the cost to Apple is now to stop buying macs.
Sorry to troll, but the vendor lockin' nightmare they are building is not
of the same nature as of the powerpc era.
I sold mine because they stopped to support it though it worked very well
on the hardware side. And switching to linux on Mac is made hard on
purpose.. > never again for me, even if they do really good stuff.
I found in LENOVO some durable hardware, easy to repair, hardware that
works nicely and avoid me to trash a working computer.
Best
Régis


Le mer. 24 juin 2020 à 11:11, Andreas Neumann  a
écrit :

> Hi all, esp. Peter,
>
> So I wonder what the new announcement of Apple switching everything from
> Intel to arm architecture will mean for our project? According to Apple
> they will switch all of their devices to arm over the next 2 years.
>
> Will it be a lot of work to adapt the build system to the new processor
> architecture? It will probably mean that we will need an additional Mac
> build server for arm architecture in our infrastructure and will have to
> provide packages for both systems for many years to come ...
>
> Not so nice for us as a project - can we forward these costs to Apple for
> that move?
>
> Greetings,
> Andreas
> ___
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[QGIS-Developer] QGIS for Apple: Intel vs. arm

[Andreas Neumann]

Hi all, esp. Peter, 


So I wonder what the new announcement of Apple switching everything from
Intel to arm architecture will mean for our project? According to Apple
they will switch all of their devices to arm over the next 2 years. 


Will it be a lot of work to adapt the build system to the new processor
architecture? It will probably mean that we will need an additional Mac
build server for arm architecture in our infrastructure and will have to
provide packages for both systems for many years to come ... 


Not so nice for us as a project - can we forward these costs to Apple
for that move? 


Greetings,
Andreas___
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