Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Mars Sjoden]

Thank you Alexandre,

Yes, I should mention 10 pixels is default on my system, I have also tried
20px up to 40px testing incase of High DPI issue.
I have tried tossing out my QGIS 3 Profile, and thought that fixed the
issue, but found it creeping back in again.
Clean build of QGIS 3.10.1 w/no extra plugins in my Testing User-land.

I absolutely agree, the Reshape Tool works nicely when dealing with
bisecting edits, and when not, a few node changes.

I am just curious, since it appears I am in a distinct minority with this
issue, all through various MacOS updates, Laptops, desktops, 3.4.x, 3.6.x,
3.8.x, 3.10.x

Mars

On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 at 16:45, Alexandre Neto  wrote:

> Hi Mars,
>
> In Settings > Options > Digitizing, What is your search radius fro vertex
> edits? I use 10 Pixels and it works fine with me.
>
> Besides, in case you don't know, for that kind of task, you can use the
> reshape tool instead, in the advanced digitizing toolbar.
>
> Alexandre Neto
>
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:10 AM Mars Sjoden  wrote:
>
>> I have been using QGIS 3.x for a good solid year, and have come to
>> conclude that the New CLICK + CLICK method is not intuitive, and I have
>> been finding it buggy (at least on Mac).
>> I have been hoping that performance, accuracy and efficiency would
>> improve with the Vertex Tool in 3.x but it has not (at least on Mac)
>> I have used many CAD software over the years (AutoCAD, FreeCad,
>> Vectorworks, Inventor, Sketchup/Layout), and am not familiar with this
>> unconventional Click+Click method for moving nodes/features.  Perhaps this
>> is a Windows UI thing?
>>
>> Besides the issue with having to re-wire the brain to the Click+Click
>> method of the Vertex Tool, the moving of a node is buggy.
>> 33% of the time Left Click is either not registered or is registering as
>> a selection box.
>>
>> I have read the arguments FOR Click+Click, perhaps if it actually worked
>> I would be okay with it.
>>
>> It appears there are two Vertex Tools states being used contextually.
>> The Vertex Selection Tool state and the Vertex Move Tool state.  It seems
>> in my case the Vertex Tool defaults to a selection state much too often no
>> matter how close to the bullseye I click.
>> Link to video illustrating the issue
>>
>>  QGIS 3.x Vertex Tool Bug.mp4
>> 
>>
>>
>> Best wishes and Happy New Year!
>> Mars
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 16:04, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
>>
>>> > It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier:
>>>
>>> I think it's quite fair to say that it is the outlier, and I gave a
>>> bunch of example where click+drag is the norm and aI gave anumber of
>>> exmaples. Click+drag is ubiquitous. Next time you go into a text field of
>>> the feature attributes form to edit that text attribute, let me know how
>>> much text you select by doing click-move-click instead of click+drag. :-)
>>>
>>> > along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing the ability to be
>>> more accurate if you don't have to hold down the button
>>>
>>> I would disagree that having to hold the button down while selecting
>>> makes it less accurate as it doesn't affect how much you are able to flex
>>> your wrist or add to stress on the carpal tunnel. Click or no click, you
>>> wrist would make the same movements. Given the ubiquity of click+track in
>>> the  computer world, choosing that offer the better UX experience to the
>>> users because it doesn't requires them to relearn how they do simple,
>>> common actions for just one application.
>>>
>>> Especially the regular "Select Feature(s)" tool (not polygon, freehand
>>> or radius) does requires you to click and drag. If carpal tunnel issues and
>>> accuracy were actual issues/reasons, then this tool also should have been
>>> change to click, move, left-click to end just like the other selection
>>> tools were changed. That lack of consistency leads to a frustrating
>>> experience for the user, ask any UX designer.
>>>
>>> > was to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click",
>>> rather than click-and-drag.
>>>
>>> How many people who start using QGIS were CAD users beforehand? I
>>> suspect that even minimally experienced CAD users are in the minority. If
>>> there is a decent chunk that could benefit from such a UX/UI change,
>>> perhaps it would have been more appropriate to make that a switch in the
>>> settings that would change the behaviours?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 6:40 AM Tom Chadwin 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Cory

 From memory, there was a lot of discussion about making this change in
 the
 vertex editor. It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier: the
 rationale
 behind the change - along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing
 the
 ability to be more accurate if you don't have to hold down the button -
 was
 to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click", rather
 than 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Alexandre Neto]

Hi Mars,

In Settings > Options > Digitizing, What is your search radius fro vertex
edits? I use 10 Pixels and it works fine with me.

Besides, in case you don't know, for that kind of task, you can use the
reshape tool instead, in the advanced digitizing toolbar.

Alexandre Neto

On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:10 AM Mars Sjoden  wrote:

> I have been using QGIS 3.x for a good solid year, and have come to
> conclude that the New CLICK + CLICK method is not intuitive, and I have
> been finding it buggy (at least on Mac).
> I have been hoping that performance, accuracy and efficiency would improve
> with the Vertex Tool in 3.x but it has not (at least on Mac)
> I have used many CAD software over the years (AutoCAD, FreeCad,
> Vectorworks, Inventor, Sketchup/Layout), and am not familiar with this
> unconventional Click+Click method for moving nodes/features.  Perhaps this
> is a Windows UI thing?
>
> Besides the issue with having to re-wire the brain to the Click+Click
> method of the Vertex Tool, the moving of a node is buggy.
> 33% of the time Left Click is either not registered or is registering as a
> selection box.
>
> I have read the arguments FOR Click+Click, perhaps if it actually worked I
> would be okay with it.
>
> It appears there are two Vertex Tools states being used contextually.  The
> Vertex Selection Tool state and the Vertex Move Tool state.  It seems in my
> case the Vertex Tool defaults to a selection state much too often no matter
> how close to the bullseye I click.
> Link to video illustrating the issue
>
>  QGIS 3.x Vertex Tool Bug.mp4
> 
>
>
> Best wishes and Happy New Year!
> Mars
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 16:04, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
>
>> > It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier:
>>
>> I think it's quite fair to say that it is the outlier, and I gave a bunch
>> of example where click+drag is the norm and aI gave anumber of exmaples.
>> Click+drag is ubiquitous. Next time you go into a text field of the feature
>> attributes form to edit that text attribute, let me know how much text you
>> select by doing click-move-click instead of click+drag. :-)
>>
>> > along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing the ability to be
>> more accurate if you don't have to hold down the button
>>
>> I would disagree that having to hold the button down while selecting
>> makes it less accurate as it doesn't affect how much you are able to flex
>> your wrist or add to stress on the carpal tunnel. Click or no click, you
>> wrist would make the same movements. Given the ubiquity of click+track in
>> the  computer world, choosing that offer the better UX experience to the
>> users because it doesn't requires them to relearn how they do simple,
>> common actions for just one application.
>>
>> Especially the regular "Select Feature(s)" tool (not polygon, freehand or
>> radius) does requires you to click and drag. If carpal tunnel issues and
>> accuracy were actual issues/reasons, then this tool also should have been
>> change to click, move, left-click to end just like the other selection
>> tools were changed. That lack of consistency leads to a frustrating
>> experience for the user, ask any UX designer.
>>
>> > was to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click",
>> rather than click-and-drag.
>>
>> How many people who start using QGIS were CAD users beforehand? I suspect
>> that even minimally experienced CAD users are in the minority. If there is
>> a decent chunk that could benefit from such a UX/UI change, perhaps it
>> would have been more appropriate to make that a switch in the settings that
>> would change the behaviours?
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 6:40 AM Tom Chadwin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Cory
>>>
>>> From memory, there was a lot of discussion about making this change in
>>> the
>>> vertex editor. It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier: the
>>> rationale
>>> behind the change - along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing the
>>> ability to be more accurate if you don't have to hold down the button -
>>> was
>>> to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click", rather
>>> than click-and-drag.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Buy Pie Spy: Adventures in British pastry 2010-11 on Amazon
>>> --
>>> Sent from:
>>> http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/QGIS-Developer-f4099106.html
>>> ___
>>> QGIS-Developer mailing list
>>> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
>>> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>>
>> ___
>> QGIS-Developer mailing list
>> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
>> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
> ___
> 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Mars Sjoden]

I have been using QGIS 3.x for a good solid year, and have come to conclude
that the New CLICK + CLICK method is not intuitive, and I have been finding
it buggy (at least on Mac).
I have been hoping that performance, accuracy and efficiency would improve
with the Vertex Tool in 3.x but it has not (at least on Mac)
I have used many CAD software over the years (AutoCAD, FreeCad,
Vectorworks, Inventor, Sketchup/Layout), and am not familiar with this
unconventional Click+Click method for moving nodes/features.  Perhaps this
is a Windows UI thing?

Besides the issue with having to re-wire the brain to the Click+Click
method of the Vertex Tool, the moving of a node is buggy.
33% of the time Left Click is either not registered or is registering as a
selection box.

I have read the arguments FOR Click+Click, perhaps if it actually worked I
would be okay with it.

It appears there are two Vertex Tools states being used contextually.  The
Vertex Selection Tool state and the Vertex Move Tool state.  It seems in my
case the Vertex Tool defaults to a selection state much too often no matter
how close to the bullseye I click.
Link to video illustrating the issue

 QGIS 3.x Vertex Tool Bug.mp4



Best wishes and Happy New Year!
Mars


On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 16:04, Cory Albrecht  wrote:

> > It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier:
>
> I think it's quite fair to say that it is the outlier, and I gave a bunch
> of example where click+drag is the norm and aI gave anumber of exmaples.
> Click+drag is ubiquitous. Next time you go into a text field of the feature
> attributes form to edit that text attribute, let me know how much text you
> select by doing click-move-click instead of click+drag. :-)
>
> > along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing the ability to be more
> accurate if you don't have to hold down the button
>
> I would disagree that having to hold the button down while selecting makes
> it less accurate as it doesn't affect how much you are able to flex your
> wrist or add to stress on the carpal tunnel. Click or no click, you wrist
> would make the same movements. Given the ubiquity of click+track in the
> computer world, choosing that offer the better UX experience to the users
> because it doesn't requires them to relearn how they do simple, common
> actions for just one application.
>
> Especially the regular "Select Feature(s)" tool (not polygon, freehand or
> radius) does requires you to click and drag. If carpal tunnel issues and
> accuracy were actual issues/reasons, then this tool also should have been
> change to click, move, left-click to end just like the other selection
> tools were changed. That lack of consistency leads to a frustrating
> experience for the user, ask any UX designer.
>
> > was to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click",
> rather than click-and-drag.
>
> How many people who start using QGIS were CAD users beforehand? I suspect
> that even minimally experienced CAD users are in the minority. If there is
> a decent chunk that could benefit from such a UX/UI change, perhaps it
> would have been more appropriate to make that a switch in the settings that
> would change the behaviours?
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 6:40 AM Tom Chadwin 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Cory
>>
>> From memory, there was a lot of discussion about making this change in the
>> vertex editor. It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier: the rationale
>> behind the change - along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing the
>> ability to be more accurate if you don't have to hold down the button -
>> was
>> to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click", rather
>> than click-and-drag.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Buy Pie Spy: Adventures in British pastry 2010-11 on Amazon
>> --
>> Sent from:
>> http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/QGIS-Developer-f4099106.html
>> ___
>> QGIS-Developer mailing list
>> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
>> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
> ___
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
___
QGIS-Developer mailing list
QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Cory Albrecht]

> It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier:

I think it's quite fair to say that it is the outlier, and I gave a bunch
of example where click+drag is the norm and aI gave anumber of exmaples.
Click+drag is ubiquitous. Next time you go into a text field of the feature
attributes form to edit that text attribute, let me know how much text you
select by doing click-move-click instead of click+drag. :-)

> along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing the ability to be more
accurate if you don't have to hold down the button

I would disagree that having to hold the button down while selecting makes
it less accurate as it doesn't affect how much you are able to flex your
wrist or add to stress on the carpal tunnel. Click or no click, you wrist
would make the same movements. Given the ubiquity of click+track in the
computer world, choosing that offer the better UX experience to the users
because it doesn't requires them to relearn how they do simple, common
actions for just one application.

Especially the regular "Select Feature(s)" tool (not polygon, freehand or
radius) does requires you to click and drag. If carpal tunnel issues and
accuracy were actual issues/reasons, then this tool also should have been
change to click, move, left-click to end just like the other selection
tools were changed. That lack of consistency leads to a frustrating
experience for the user, ask any UX designer.

> was to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click",
rather than click-and-drag.

How many people who start using QGIS were CAD users beforehand? I suspect
that even minimally experienced CAD users are in the minority. If there is
a decent chunk that could benefit from such a UX/UI change, perhaps it
would have been more appropriate to make that a switch in the settings that
would change the behaviours?

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 6:40 AM Tom Chadwin  wrote:

> Hi Cory
>
> From memory, there was a lot of discussion about making this change in the
> vertex editor. It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier: the rationale
> behind the change - along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing the
> ability to be more accurate if you don't have to hold down the button - was
> to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click", rather
> than click-and-drag.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> -
> Buy Pie Spy: Adventures in British pastry 2010-11 on Amazon
> --
> Sent from:
> http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/QGIS-Developer-f4099106.html
> ___
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
___
QGIS-Developer mailing list
QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Cory Albrecht]

> I would like to see a mode where the node that will be moved is
autoselected based on proximity to the mouse pointer.

That would be a UX prone to mistakes unless it had to be explicitly turned
on and very visible when on. :-)

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 11:23 PM Jo  wrote:

> I guess the rationale was making it easier on the tendons in the carpal
> tunnel. Click, hold/move, click became click, move, click.
>
> I would like to see a mode where the node that will be moved is
> autoselected based on proximity to the mouse pointer. Then it would become
> move, click, move, click. Obviously this needs to be guided by a
> rubberband, whowing which node will be moved.
>
> In JOSM this "improve way accuracy" also allows Ctrl-Click for adding
> nodes, I mean vertices.
>
> Polyglot
>
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 2:54 AM Cory Albrecht  wrote:
>
>>
>> Cory Albrecht 
>> 8:14 PM (37 minutes ago)
>> to Régis
>> Hello Régis,
>>
>> Sorry for not being clear - I mean when using the selection tool in
>> freehand mode. I am definitely not talking about the identification tool,
>> assuming you're referring to the same thing that I am thinking of?
>> Ctrl+Shift+I, or the icon that is the cursor with a the letter "i" in a
>> sold blue circle. I'm not sure I would call that new as it's been part of
>> QGIS since I started using it in about 2015. Perhaps you're an old salt
>> from the 1.x days? ;-)
>>
>> As a principle of UX design, ideally, the user should do the same action
>> - click and drag - for any type of selection, both to maintain internal
>> consistency in the application and with common ways of doing things in the
>> broader computer universe. This lets people learn new software quickly by
>> having a set of transferable actions that can get them up and running and
>> doing rudimentary things quickly. It also helps reduce unintended errors
>> caused by using common actions that get unexpectedly interpreted different
>> than the user is used to. Things like this contribute to how easy or
>> frustrating an application is to use, both for new and long time users.
>>
>> 1. For the "Select Feature(s)", click and drag to indicate the diagonally
>> opposite corners of a selection rectangle.
>> 2. For the "Select Features by Freehand", click and drag to create an
>> irregular blob of selection area.
>> 3. For the "Select Features by Radius", click and drag to indicate the
>> centre of a selection circle and it's radius.
>>
>> In 2.x the answer to all of those was yes, but in 3.x it's yes, no, no.
>>
>> In vector and raster drawing applications, drawing rectangles, circles
>> and blobs is done by click and drag, as is selecting rectangular, circular
>> or irregular blobby areas. If you release and click elsewhere then drag,
>> you start drawing a new object, or you discard the first selection and
>> start outlining a new one. Word processing and text section, video editors
>> and frame selection, sound editors and lengths of time in a track, they all
>> have the user do these conceptually similar tasks in the same way - click
>> and drag to create a selection , new click discards old selection.
>>
>> Another principle of UX design is that you don't change how a user does
>> something unless there is clear benefit that outweighs the trouble of
>> relearning, especially for action concepts that are common in the broader
>> sphere. When you make changes without benefits you cause friction in your
>> user flows (some call those "point points"), and that means people find
>> that task (and potentially the application as a whole) difficult and
>> frustrating to use.
>>
>> For those three methods of selection there's nothing to be gained by
>> making QGIS 3.x the odd one out in how this is done. There's no benefit
>> added by extra functionality in these selection methods. All it does is
>> create pain points, both by being different from everybody else and by
>> being inconsistent internally.
>>
>> The exception to this is the poly gone selection tool. I've never
>> encountered it outside of QGIS and ArcGIS. Drawing applications have
>> polygon drawing tools in which you sequentially click the polygon's points,
>> just like how you create features on polygon or line layers in QGIS, but
>> there's no polygon selection analogue. As such it makes sense to take the
>> feature creation method of sequential clicks over for use in a polygon
>> selection tool rather than coming up with a whole new user flow like click
>> and drag and tapping the space bar for the points.
>>
>> And so I wonder - what was the rationale behind making this change?
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 6:00 AM Régis Haubourg 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Cory,
>>> I must say I didn't notice any difference on the selection tool behavior
>>> on my side.
>>> I don't think there was any explicit attempt to homogenize the selection
>>> behavior with the node tool new ergonomy.
>>>
>>> Just a check, in the maptool dropdown list for selection tool, are your
>>> using the freehand selection 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Saber Razmjooei]

Hi
> 2) select by polygon: behaves the same

For select by polygon, there is an additional option: right-clicking allows
you to select features intersecting with existing polygon shapes (so that
you do not need to capture the same geometry):
https://twitter.com/lutraconsulting/status/1040328624002527232

Regards
Saber

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 08:30, Bernhard Ströbl 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> @Marco I can second Cory that the selection tools' behaviour is
> different between 2.18 (tested on Win) and 3.* (tested on Win and Ubuntu)
> 1) select by rectangle: behaves the same (click + drag)
> 2) select by polygon: behaves the same
> 3) select by freehand: behaves differently: 2.18 click + drag 3.* click
> + click
> 4) select by circle: behaves differently: 2.18 click + drag 3.* click +
> click
> I have no strong feeling for either behaviour (hardly use options 2 to
> 4) but I would think that the behaviour should be consistent within QGIS
> (either all click + drag or all click + click). Click + drag is well
> established (e.g. Inkscape, Bentley Microstation) at least for the
> rectangular selection, so maybe it would be better to use this approach.
> Furthermore this is how the rectangular selection works in the layout, too.
>
> @Cory concerning the vertex-editing tool there has been a lot of
> discussion and there were good reasons to change its behaviour. A lot
> has been improved recently: most prominent IMHO: feature can be locked
> for exclusive editing with a right click (similar to selecting a feature
> for editing in 2.*) but can be edited directly without locking e.g. by
> simply picking and moving vertices. May I therefore ask you to try again
> with current master (or a nightly build)? And may I further ask you to
> forget how it was in QGIS 2 and simply try how it works in 3?
> AFAIK there is no "standard" in mouse behaviour for vertex editing. CAD
> uses click + click (I can at least say for Microstation), Inkscape uses
> click + drag, so if one or the other seems familiar might depend on
> one's background.
>
> just my 2ct
>
> Bernhard
>
> Am 10.04.2019 um 17:38 schrieb Marco Bernasocchi:
> > Hi
> >
> > On 09.04.19 02:53, Cory Albrecht wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>   Cory Albrecht mailto:m...@hanfastolfe.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 8:14 PM (37 minutes ago)
> >>
> >>
> >> to Régis
> >>
> >> Hello Régis,
> >>
> >> Sorry for not being clear - I mean when using the selection tool in
> >> freehand mode. I am definitely not talking about the identification
> >> tool, assuming you're referring to the same thing that I am thinking
> >> of? Ctrl+Shift+I, or the icon that is the cursor with a the letter "i"
> >> in a sold blue circle. I'm not sure I would call that new as it's been
> >> part of QGIS since I started using it in about 2015. Perhaps you're an
> >> old salt from the 1.x days? ;-)
> >>
> >> As a principle of UX design, ideally, the user should do the same
> >> action - click and drag - for any type of selection, both to maintain
> >> internal consistency in the application and with common ways of doing
> >> things in the broader computer universe. This lets people learn new
> >> software quickly by having a set of transferable actions that can get
> >> them up and running and doing rudimentary things quickly. It also
> >> helps reduce unintended errors caused by using common actions that get
> >> unexpectedly interpreted different than the user is used to. Things
> >> like this contribute to how easy or frustrating an application is to
> >> use, both for new and long time users.
> >>
> >> 1. For the "Select Feature(s)", click and drag to indicate the
> >> diagonally opposite corners of a selection rectangle.
> >> 2. For the "Select Features by Freehand", click and drag to create an
> >> irregular blob of selection area.
> >> 3. For the "Select Features by Radius", click and drag to indicate the
> >> centre of a selection circle and it's radius.
> >>
> >> In 2.x the answer to all of those was yes, but in 3.x it's yes, no, no.
> > I just tested and the answer are, as Régis mentioned, the same as in
> > 2.18 ( tested using 3.4.4). the behavior you describe is only true when
> > you activate "select by polygon".
> >>
> >> In vector and raster drawing applications, drawing rectangles, circles
> >> and blobs is done by click and drag, as is selecting rectangular,
> >> circular or irregular blobby areas. If you release and click elsewhere
> >> then drag, you start drawing a new object, or you discard the first
> >> selection and start outlining a new one. Word processing and text
> >> section, video editors and frame selection, sound editors and lengths
> >> of time in a track, they all have the user do these conceptually
> >> similar tasks in the same way - click and drag to create a selection ,
> >> new click discards old selection.
> >>
> >> Another principle of UX design is that you don't change how a user
> >> does something unless there is clear benefit that outweighs the
> >> trouble of relearning, especially 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Bernhard Ströbl]

Hi,

@Marco I can second Cory that the selection tools' behaviour is 
different between 2.18 (tested on Win) and 3.* (tested on Win and Ubuntu)

1) select by rectangle: behaves the same (click + drag)
2) select by polygon: behaves the same
3) select by freehand: behaves differently: 2.18 click + drag 3.* click 
+ click
4) select by circle: behaves differently: 2.18 click + drag 3.* click + 
click
I have no strong feeling for either behaviour (hardly use options 2 to 
4) but I would think that the behaviour should be consistent within QGIS 
(either all click + drag or all click + click). Click + drag is well 
established (e.g. Inkscape, Bentley Microstation) at least for the 
rectangular selection, so maybe it would be better to use this approach. 
Furthermore this is how the rectangular selection works in the layout, too.


@Cory concerning the vertex-editing tool there has been a lot of 
discussion and there were good reasons to change its behaviour. A lot 
has been improved recently: most prominent IMHO: feature can be locked 
for exclusive editing with a right click (similar to selecting a feature 
for editing in 2.*) but can be edited directly without locking e.g. by 
simply picking and moving vertices. May I therefore ask you to try again 
with current master (or a nightly build)? And may I further ask you to 
forget how it was in QGIS 2 and simply try how it works in 3?
AFAIK there is no "standard" in mouse behaviour for vertex editing. CAD 
uses click + click (I can at least say for Microstation), Inkscape uses 
click + drag, so if one or the other seems familiar might depend on 
one's background.


just my 2ct

Bernhard

Am 10.04.2019 um 17:38 schrieb Marco Bernasocchi:

Hi

On 09.04.19 02:53, Cory Albrecht wrote:



  Cory Albrecht mailto:m...@hanfastolfe.com>>


8:14 PM (37 minutes ago)


to Régis

Hello Régis,

Sorry for not being clear - I mean when using the selection tool in 
freehand mode. I am definitely not talking about the identification 
tool, assuming you're referring to the same thing that I am thinking 
of? Ctrl+Shift+I, or the icon that is the cursor with a the letter "i" 
in a sold blue circle. I'm not sure I would call that new as it's been 
part of QGIS since I started using it in about 2015. Perhaps you're an 
old salt from the 1.x days? ;-)


As a principle of UX design, ideally, the user should do the same 
action - click and drag - for any type of selection, both to maintain 
internal consistency in the application and with common ways of doing 
things in the broader computer universe. This lets people learn new 
software quickly by having a set of transferable actions that can get 
them up and running and doing rudimentary things quickly. It also 
helps reduce unintended errors caused by using common actions that get 
unexpectedly interpreted different than the user is used to. Things 
like this contribute to how easy or frustrating an application is to 
use, both for new and long time users.


1. For the "Select Feature(s)", click and drag to indicate the 
diagonally opposite corners of a selection rectangle.
2. For the "Select Features by Freehand", click and drag to create an 
irregular blob of selection area.
3. For the "Select Features by Radius", click and drag to indicate the 
centre of a selection circle and it's radius.


In 2.x the answer to all of those was yes, but in 3.x it's yes, no, no.
I just tested and the answer are, as Régis mentioned, the same as in 
2.18 ( tested using 3.4.4). the behavior you describe is only true when 
you activate "select by polygon".


In vector and raster drawing applications, drawing rectangles, circles 
and blobs is done by click and drag, as is selecting rectangular, 
circular or irregular blobby areas. If you release and click elsewhere 
then drag, you start drawing a new object, or you discard the first 
selection and start outlining a new one. Word processing and text 
section, video editors and frame selection, sound editors and lengths 
of time in a track, they all have the user do these conceptually 
similar tasks in the same way - click and drag to create a selection , 
new click discards old selection.


Another principle of UX design is that you don't change how a user 
does something unless there is clear benefit that outweighs the 
trouble of relearning, especially for action concepts that are common 
in the broader sphere. When you make changes without benefits you 
cause friction in your user flows (some call those "point points"), 
and that means people find that task (and potentially the application 
as a whole) difficult and frustrating to use.


For those three methods of selection there's nothing to be gained by 
making QGIS 3.x the odd one out in how this is done. There's no 
benefit added by extra functionality in these selection methods. All 
it does is create pain points, both by being different from everybody 
else and by being inconsistent internally.

That is exactly why QGIS 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Marco Bernasocchi]

Hi

On 09.04.19 02:53, Cory Albrecht wrote:
>
>
>   Cory Albrecht mailto:m...@hanfastolfe.com>>
>
>   
> 8:14 PM (37 minutes ago)
>   
>   
> to Régis
>
> Hello Régis,
>
> Sorry for not being clear - I mean when using the selection tool in
> freehand mode. I am definitely not talking about the identification
> tool, assuming you're referring to the same thing that I am thinking
> of? Ctrl+Shift+I, or the icon that is the cursor with a the letter "i"
> in a sold blue circle. I'm not sure I would call that new as it's been
> part of QGIS since I started using it in about 2015. Perhaps you're an
> old salt from the 1.x days? ;-)
>
> As a principle of UX design, ideally, the user should do the same
> action - click and drag - for any type of selection, both to maintain
> internal consistency in the application and with common ways of doing
> things in the broader computer universe. This lets people learn new
> software quickly by having a set of transferable actions that can get
> them up and running and doing rudimentary things quickly. It also
> helps reduce unintended errors caused by using common actions that get
> unexpectedly interpreted different than the user is used to. Things
> like this contribute to how easy or frustrating an application is to
> use, both for new and long time users.
>
> 1. For the "Select Feature(s)", click and drag to indicate the
> diagonally opposite corners of a selection rectangle.
> 2. For the "Select Features by Freehand", click and drag to create an
> irregular blob of selection area.
> 3. For the "Select Features by Radius", click and drag to indicate the
> centre of a selection circle and it's radius.
>
> In 2.x the answer to all of those was yes, but in 3.x it's yes, no, no.
I just tested and the answer are, as Régis mentioned, the same as in
2.18 ( tested using 3.4.4). the behavior you describe is only true when
you activate "select by polygon".
>
> In vector and raster drawing applications, drawing rectangles, circles
> and blobs is done by click and drag, as is selecting rectangular,
> circular or irregular blobby areas. If you release and click elsewhere
> then drag, you start drawing a new object, or you discard the first
> selection and start outlining a new one. Word processing and text
> section, video editors and frame selection, sound editors and lengths
> of time in a track, they all have the user do these conceptually
> similar tasks in the same way - click and drag to create a selection ,
> new click discards old selection.
>
> Another principle of UX design is that you don't change how a user
> does something unless there is clear benefit that outweighs the
> trouble of relearning, especially for action concepts that are common
> in the broader sphere. When you make changes without benefits you
> cause friction in your user flows (some call those "point points"),
> and that means people find that task (and potentially the application
> as a whole) difficult and frustrating to use.
>
> For those three methods of selection there's nothing to be gained by
> making QGIS 3.x the odd one out in how this is done. There's no
> benefit added by extra functionality in these selection methods. All
> it does is create pain points, both by being different from everybody
> else and by being inconsistent internally.
That is exactly why QGIS does it the same why as other tools.
>
> The exception to this is the poly gone selection tool. I've never
> encountered it outside of QGIS and ArcGIS. Drawing applications have
> polygon drawing tools in which you sequentially click the polygon's
> points, just like how you create features on polygon or line layers in
> QGIS, but there's no polygon selection analogue. As such it makes
> sense to take the feature creation method of sequential clicks over
> for use in a polygon selection tool rather than coming up with a whole
> new user flow like click and drag and tapping the space bar for the
> points.
>
> And so I wonder - what was the rationale behind making this change?

a very quick google search returned the whole rationale to changing the
behavior of the Node tool [0] but none for the behavior you describe,
which I could not reproduce. Could you show us a screencast?

[0] https://github.com/qgis/QGIS-Enhancement-Proposals/issues/69

oh, and cheers

Marco

>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 6:00 AM Régis Haubourg
> mailto:regis.haubo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Cory,
> I must say I didn't notice any difference on the selection tool
> behavior on my side.
> I don't think there was any explicit attempt to homogenize the
> selection behavior with the node tool new ergonomy.
>
> Just a check, in the maptool dropdown list for selection tool, are
> your using the freehand selection tool or the classical clic and
> drag selection tool?
>
> I've seen similar surprising issues with the new "identify" tool
> that now can interrogate features in a polygon. Users got confused
> when 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Tom Chadwin]

Hi Cory

From memory, there was a lot of discussion about making this change in the
vertex editor. It's not true to say that QGIS is an outlier: the rationale
behind the change - along with the reasons Jo mentions and increasing the
ability to be more accurate if you don't have to hold down the button - was
to align with the behaviour of CAD, which does use "click-click", rather
than click-and-drag.

Tom



-
Buy Pie Spy: Adventures in British pastry 2010-11 on Amazon 
--
Sent from: http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/QGIS-Developer-f4099106.html
___
QGIS-Developer mailing list
QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Jo]

I guess the rationale was making it easier on the tendons in the carpal
tunnel. Click, hold/move, click became click, move, click.

I would like to see a mode where the node that will be moved is
autoselected based on proximity to the mouse pointer. Then it would become
move, click, move, click. Obviously this needs to be guided by a
rubberband, whowing which node will be moved.

In JOSM this "improve way accuracy" also allows Ctrl-Click for adding
nodes, I mean vertices.

Polyglot

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 2:54 AM Cory Albrecht  wrote:

>
> Cory Albrecht 
> 8:14 PM (37 minutes ago)
> to Régis
> Hello Régis,
>
> Sorry for not being clear - I mean when using the selection tool in
> freehand mode. I am definitely not talking about the identification tool,
> assuming you're referring to the same thing that I am thinking of?
> Ctrl+Shift+I, or the icon that is the cursor with a the letter "i" in a
> sold blue circle. I'm not sure I would call that new as it's been part of
> QGIS since I started using it in about 2015. Perhaps you're an old salt
> from the 1.x days? ;-)
>
> As a principle of UX design, ideally, the user should do the same action -
> click and drag - for any type of selection, both to maintain internal
> consistency in the application and with common ways of doing things in the
> broader computer universe. This lets people learn new software quickly by
> having a set of transferable actions that can get them up and running and
> doing rudimentary things quickly. It also helps reduce unintended errors
> caused by using common actions that get unexpectedly interpreted different
> than the user is used to. Things like this contribute to how easy or
> frustrating an application is to use, both for new and long time users.
>
> 1. For the "Select Feature(s)", click and drag to indicate the diagonally
> opposite corners of a selection rectangle.
> 2. For the "Select Features by Freehand", click and drag to create an
> irregular blob of selection area.
> 3. For the "Select Features by Radius", click and drag to indicate the
> centre of a selection circle and it's radius.
>
> In 2.x the answer to all of those was yes, but in 3.x it's yes, no, no.
>
> In vector and raster drawing applications, drawing rectangles, circles and
> blobs is done by click and drag, as is selecting rectangular, circular or
> irregular blobby areas. If you release and click elsewhere then drag, you
> start drawing a new object, or you discard the first selection and start
> outlining a new one. Word processing and text section, video editors and
> frame selection, sound editors and lengths of time in a track, they all
> have the user do these conceptually similar tasks in the same way - click
> and drag to create a selection , new click discards old selection.
>
> Another principle of UX design is that you don't change how a user does
> something unless there is clear benefit that outweighs the trouble of
> relearning, especially for action concepts that are common in the broader
> sphere. When you make changes without benefits you cause friction in your
> user flows (some call those "point points"), and that means people find
> that task (and potentially the application as a whole) difficult and
> frustrating to use.
>
> For those three methods of selection there's nothing to be gained by
> making QGIS 3.x the odd one out in how this is done. There's no benefit
> added by extra functionality in these selection methods. All it does is
> create pain points, both by being different from everybody else and by
> being inconsistent internally.
>
> The exception to this is the poly gone selection tool. I've never
> encountered it outside of QGIS and ArcGIS. Drawing applications have
> polygon drawing tools in which you sequentially click the polygon's points,
> just like how you create features on polygon or line layers in QGIS, but
> there's no polygon selection analogue. As such it makes sense to take the
> feature creation method of sequential clicks over for use in a polygon
> selection tool rather than coming up with a whole new user flow like click
> and drag and tapping the space bar for the points.
>
> And so I wonder - what was the rationale behind making this change?
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 6:00 AM Régis Haubourg 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Cory,
>> I must say I didn't notice any difference on the selection tool behavior
>> on my side.
>> I don't think there was any explicit attempt to homogenize the selection
>> behavior with the node tool new ergonomy.
>>
>> Just a check, in the maptool dropdown list for selection tool, are your
>> using the freehand selection tool or the classical clic and drag selection
>> tool?
>>
>> I've seen similar surprising issues with the new "identify" tool that now
>> can interrogate features in a polygon. Users got confused when they changed
>> this behavior by mistake. Could that be your case?
>> Cheers
>> Régis
>>
>> Le lun. 8 avr. 2019 à 01:09, Cory Albrecht  a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> I was wondering why 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Cory Albrecht]

Cory Albrecht 
8:14 PM (37 minutes ago)
to Régis
Hello Régis,

Sorry for not being clear - I mean when using the selection tool in
freehand mode. I am definitely not talking about the identification tool,
assuming you're referring to the same thing that I am thinking of?
Ctrl+Shift+I, or the icon that is the cursor with a the letter "i" in a
sold blue circle. I'm not sure I would call that new as it's been part of
QGIS since I started using it in about 2015. Perhaps you're an old salt
from the 1.x days? ;-)

As a principle of UX design, ideally, the user should do the same action -
click and drag - for any type of selection, both to maintain internal
consistency in the application and with common ways of doing things in the
broader computer universe. This lets people learn new software quickly by
having a set of transferable actions that can get them up and running and
doing rudimentary things quickly. It also helps reduce unintended errors
caused by using common actions that get unexpectedly interpreted different
than the user is used to. Things like this contribute to how easy or
frustrating an application is to use, both for new and long time users.

1. For the "Select Feature(s)", click and drag to indicate the diagonally
opposite corners of a selection rectangle.
2. For the "Select Features by Freehand", click and drag to create an
irregular blob of selection area.
3. For the "Select Features by Radius", click and drag to indicate the
centre of a selection circle and it's radius.

In 2.x the answer to all of those was yes, but in 3.x it's yes, no, no.

In vector and raster drawing applications, drawing rectangles, circles and
blobs is done by click and drag, as is selecting rectangular, circular or
irregular blobby areas. If you release and click elsewhere then drag, you
start drawing a new object, or you discard the first selection and start
outlining a new one. Word processing and text section, video editors and
frame selection, sound editors and lengths of time in a track, they all
have the user do these conceptually similar tasks in the same way - click
and drag to create a selection , new click discards old selection.

Another principle of UX design is that you don't change how a user does
something unless there is clear benefit that outweighs the trouble of
relearning, especially for action concepts that are common in the broader
sphere. When you make changes without benefits you cause friction in your
user flows (some call those "point points"), and that means people find
that task (and potentially the application as a whole) difficult and
frustrating to use.

For those three methods of selection there's nothing to be gained by making
QGIS 3.x the odd one out in how this is done. There's no benefit added by
extra functionality in these selection methods. All it does is create pain
points, both by being different from everybody else and by being
inconsistent internally.

The exception to this is the poly gone selection tool. I've never
encountered it outside of QGIS and ArcGIS. Drawing applications have
polygon drawing tools in which you sequentially click the polygon's points,
just like how you create features on polygon or line layers in QGIS, but
there's no polygon selection analogue. As such it makes sense to take the
feature creation method of sequential clicks over for use in a polygon
selection tool rather than coming up with a whole new user flow like click
and drag and tapping the space bar for the points.

And so I wonder - what was the rationale behind making this change?

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 6:00 AM Régis Haubourg 
wrote:

> Hi Cory,
> I must say I didn't notice any difference on the selection tool behavior
> on my side.
> I don't think there was any explicit attempt to homogenize the selection
> behavior with the node tool new ergonomy.
>
> Just a check, in the maptool dropdown list for selection tool, are your
> using the freehand selection tool or the classical clic and drag selection
> tool?
>
> I've seen similar surprising issues with the new "identify" tool that now
> can interrogate features in a polygon. Users got confused when they changed
> this behavior by mistake. Could that be your case?
> Cheers
> Régis
>
> Le lun. 8 avr. 2019 à 01:09, Cory Albrecht  a
> écrit :
>
>> I was wondering why the selection tool behaviour in 3.x was changed from
>> the implementation in 2.18?
>>
>> In 2.18.x when you wanted to select features in a layer, you clicked the
>> primary mouse button, held it, and moves the mouse cursor over the items
>> you wanted to select - known as "click and drag". To help, a shape was
>> drawn on screen for the user to know what they had already dragged the
>> mouse over top of. To add to the selection you used shift plus click and
>> drag, to remove, Ctrl plus click and drag. It the way select tools work
>> broadly across computer world and is intuitive because of it's ubiquity -
>> learn it once, use it everywhere.
>>
>> In 3.x, however, instead of using 

Re: [QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Régis Haubourg]

Hi Cory,
I must say I didn't notice any difference on the selection tool behavior on
my side.
I don't think there was any explicit attempt to homogenize the selection
behavior with the node tool new ergonomy.

Just a check, in the maptool dropdown list for selection tool, are your
using the freehand selection tool or the classical clic and drag selection
tool?

I've seen similar surprising issues with the new "identify" tool that now
can interrogate features in a polygon. Users got confused when they changed
this behavior by mistake. Could that be your case?
Cheers
Régis

Le lun. 8 avr. 2019 à 01:09, Cory Albrecht  a écrit :

> I was wondering why the selection tool behaviour in 3.x was changed from
> the implementation in 2.18?
>
> In 2.18.x when you wanted to select features in a layer, you clicked the
> primary mouse button, held it, and moves the mouse cursor over the items
> you wanted to select - known as "click and drag". To help, a shape was
> drawn on screen for the user to know what they had already dragged the
> mouse over top of. To add to the selection you used shift plus click and
> drag, to remove, Ctrl plus click and drag. It the way select tools work
> broadly across computer world and is intuitive because of it's ubiquity -
> learn it once, use it everywhere.
>
> In 3.x, however, instead of using that common method, it has changed to
> click and release and move the mouse around. This is a common UI method to
> set focus to an item for subsequent actions but still be able to move the
> mouse around without selecting or affecting any other items. I know things
> would work slightly different in QGIS because of having a distinct
> selection tool that one must activate, but this removes intuitiveness from
> the application and makes it more difficult to use without any
> corresponding gain in functionality.
>
> A similar change has also happened in the vertex editor where in 2.18.x
> single clicking on a vertex used to mean select, and you had to drag (click
> and hold) to move it. Now, if you click and release, it unexpectedly drags
> the vertex around as you move the mouse.
>
> QGIS having it's own, non-standard mouse actions for tasks that are common
> (select, copy, delete, etc…) across all types of data (text in a
> wordprocessor, frames in a movie editor, features in a map editor, etc…) is
> counter-intuitive and confusing, especially if those non-standard actions
> are already commonly used for other common user interface actions.
>
> It's almost like the QGIS development team has decided that Ctrl+V will
> now mean "Cut", Ctrl+X will mean "Copy", and to copy have to use Alt+F1 for
> "Paste". Extending common user interface actions for something in QGIS that
> has no exact parallel but is still conceptually similar to that common
> action, like how Ctrl+Alt+V means paste what was copied into the buffer
> into a brand new layer, that makes sense. But ignoring decades of common UI
> actions that are in the muscle memory of probably all users makes the
> programme frustrating and tedious to use as one has to constantly remind
> themselves that QGIS is different.
>
> ___
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
___
QGIS-Developer mailing list
QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer

[QGIS-Developer] Why was selection tool behaviour changed in 3.x?

[Cory Albrecht]

I was wondering why the selection tool behaviour in 3.x was changed from
the implementation in 2.18?

In 2.18.x when you wanted to select features in a layer, you clicked the
primary mouse button, held it, and moves the mouse cursor over the items
you wanted to select - known as "click and drag". To help, a shape was
drawn on screen for the user to know what they had already dragged the
mouse over top of. To add to the selection you used shift plus click and
drag, to remove, Ctrl plus click and drag. It the way select tools work
broadly across computer world and is intuitive because of it's ubiquity -
learn it once, use it everywhere.

In 3.x, however, instead of using that common method, it has changed to
click and release and move the mouse around. This is a common UI method to
set focus to an item for subsequent actions but still be able to move the
mouse around without selecting or affecting any other items. I know things
would work slightly different in QGIS because of having a distinct
selection tool that one must activate, but this removes intuitiveness from
the application and makes it more difficult to use without any
corresponding gain in functionality.

A similar change has also happened in the vertex editor where in 2.18.x
single clicking on a vertex used to mean select, and you had to drag (click
and hold) to move it. Now, if you click and release, it unexpectedly drags
the vertex around as you move the mouse.

QGIS having it's own, non-standard mouse actions for tasks that are common
(select, copy, delete, etc…) across all types of data (text in a
wordprocessor, frames in a movie editor, features in a map editor, etc…) is
counter-intuitive and confusing, especially if those non-standard actions
are already commonly used for other common user interface actions.

It's almost like the QGIS development team has decided that Ctrl+V will now
mean "Cut", Ctrl+X will mean "Copy", and to copy have to use Alt+F1 for
"Paste". Extending common user interface actions for something in QGIS that
has no exact parallel but is still conceptually similar to that common
action, like how Ctrl+Alt+V means paste what was copied into the buffer
into a brand new layer, that makes sense. But ignoring decades of common UI
actions that are in the muscle memory of probably all users makes the
programme frustrating and tedious to use as one has to constantly remind
themselves that QGIS is different.
___
QGIS-Developer mailing list
QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer