Re: [Qgis-user] International/Local Labeled World Basemap in QGIS. Protomaps?
Richard Duivenvoorde writes: > On 10/24/23 13:40, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User wrote: >> I am not sure how I feel about "range requests are the right answer" vs >> tiles, as from a CS viewpoint it seems to be the same thing and it feels >> a little like "you have to do it our way now", and it's not clear to me >> that there is a layer that basically extracts tiles from the big file, >> separating the tiles/range issue from the rest. I hope it is that way. >> I can see that currently people can host a big file with ranges more >> easily than a hierarchy of files. > > I'm not a specialist in this, but my point in this, is that it is easy to > fetch this big file from the build page (or use the tools to create it > theirself). > > And as it looks like all this is very good cache-able I think it is better > then having a more heavy solution like mapservers or mapproxy servers? > I'm ok both with a Object storage solution (with range requests if > I'm right) OR with some small proxy in front to handle xyz/pbf > requests. I see it as just a different file storage layout, either a bunch of files, or one file with a built-in filesystem layer and a library that gets the sub-files (tiles) out. It seems pretty equivalent, and the issue is really about which software and provider setups are easier or cheaper to deal with. I suspect this is really about "big provider X will let you host a 110GB file and do range requests, but they won't let you host a hierarchy of smaller files adding up to 110GB, at least not for the same price". Which is a good reason. That's basically what protomaps says, as I read it. >> My impression is that there is js for browsers to obtain the bits via >> range requests and then render. Is there a plugin that will effectively >> fetch the tiles from this alternate (non-TMS, non-OGC) representation? >> And then render? Or is your idea to obtain vector data, and have a >> separate qgis-specific rendering pipeline? > > We could start (with the xyz version which is already available (after > getting a key): > https://api.protomaps.com/tiles/v2/{z}/{x}/{y}.pbf?key= So that's exactly the per-file layout I contrasted. Sounds like the code can use either then, which is good. > crux here is to get styles which work in QGIS. Indeed, and the question is if it's rendering to raster in the plugin using the same kind of code that would happen in a browser, or if it's providing vector data and letting qgis use it, sort of a like a database connection to a bunch of layers. One of the big issues is going to be the mismatch between the layer world, where each has a table with a schema, and the OSM tagging world. I've dealt with that a bit using highway=path as source data for displaying trails in a qgis map. >> But this is vector. Are you suggesting that this be geodetic in >> ITF2014, instead of projected? > > No, just that people maybe prefer (national) vector tile sets in their own > local crs's. > Maybe I'm the only one looking for World-maps :-) I see. Well yes, people might, and I suppose they can set it up, but in theory using ITRF2014 or WGS84 (and ignoring the ensemble problem) should be equivalent after transforms. As a user in the US, all the tiled maps I get are in 3857, even the MassGIS basemap -- even though MassGIS is very firmly in NAD83. >> I wonder how this compares to loading OSM in postgis and styling it. >> It would be nice to have consistent methods so that one can mix and >> match the various architectural (vs GIS) layers in the stack without >> them being siloed. > > I've been trying that, but styling is too much work for me, the > labeling alone (have all the proper fonts available) is already a lot > of work. I found it hard, too. Well, all in all I think this is worth working on. I just don't have a good handle yet. ___ QGIS-User mailing list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] International/Local Labeled World Basemap in QGIS. Protomaps?
Richard Duivenvoorde writes: >>I am unclear on how we are dealing with the required OSM attribution >>in qgis. I have added OSM tiles with quickosm, and the main map view >>lacks attribution. I did publish a pdf map of local conservation, and >>I was careful in the map composer to attribute OSM (required) and >>MassGIS (polite). I suspect at least some are not so careful. >>Leaflet has a default or at least more in-the-groove attribution path, >>and I think adding OSM to qgis should too. This is not specifically >>about this vs TMS, but if starting from scratch I think we should >>significantly try. > > Agreed, but I do not have a solution for that either. Not sure if QGIS > should enforce this or it is actually the responsibility of the > producer of a map. It is certainly the responsibility of anyone who uses OSM data and shares it. There are multiple options for qgis/plugins, at least: 1) add OSM data, don't tell the user that there is a license, and don't add any attribution by default 2) when adding the data, automatically add an attribution object so the canvas shows it, like the editor layer index support in JOSM. Do something perhaps similar in print composer. This might be creating an attribution decoration in a map view. Another example is leaflet, where example code tends to look like the following, which shows the tooling support for attribution. var osmUrl = 'https://{s}.tile.openstreetmap.org/{z}/{x}/{y}.png', osmAttrib = ' https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright;>OpenStreetMap contributors', osm = L.tileLayer(osmUrl, {maxZoom: 19, attribution: osmAttrib}); 3) Like 2, but (unless you change source and rebuild), don't allow deleting the attribution. As I see it, option 3 is "enforce" and agreed we don't want that. But I ee option 1 as deliberate indifference to OSM's license, and I could see an argument that it's contributory infringement, although I think legally it's a stretch. Socially however, it's valid. I meant option 2, to have the normal/default path be to get minimal compliant attribution, and of course people can make the software do what they want, even if it's something that isn't legally permitted (if distributed). I acknowledge that this is not a problem newly raised by protomaps. I have just been semi-surprised at the state of OSM/non-attribution in plugins. ___ QGIS-User mailing list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] International/Local Labeled World Basemap in QGIS. Protomaps?
On 10/24/23 14:38, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User wrote: I, and I suspect many others, often want basemaps for a much more limited area. For 95% of what I do, a basemap that only covers Massachusetts, US, is just fine. It would be great if I could take a regional extract and produce by own file that is only 200 or so MB. I realize that's more of a comment about protomaps, and likely supported, unless there's some doctrine against it, but I wanted to inject the thought into qgis planning. I think this is mostly just "be able to point to file or URL of your choice" and everything else is bug fixes. This is provided by Protomaps itself, so people could do that if they want. And: no planning yet, I was just wondering wat other felt/thought. I've been playing with it, and at this moment it lacks (in QGIS) proper style handling, I think. I am unclear on how we are dealing with the required OSM attribution in qgis. I have added OSM tiles with quickosm, and the main map view lacks attribution. I did publish a pdf map of local conservation, and I was careful in the map composer to attribute OSM (required) and MassGIS (polite). I suspect at least some are not so careful. Leaflet has a default or at least more in-the-groove attribution path, and I think adding OSM to qgis should too. This is not specifically about this vs TMS, but if starting from scratch I think we should significantly try. Agreed, but I do not have a solution for that either. Not sure if QGIS should enforce this or it is actually the responsibility of the producer of a map. Regards, Richard ___ QGIS-User mailing list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] International/Local Labeled World Basemap in QGIS. Protomaps?
On 10/24/23 13:40, Greg Troxel via QGIS-User wrote: I am not sure how I feel about "range requests are the right answer" vs tiles, as from a CS viewpoint it seems to be the same thing and it feels a little like "you have to do it our way now", and it's not clear to me that there is a layer that basically extracts tiles from the big file, separating the tiles/range issue from the rest. I hope it is that way. I can see that currently people can host a big file with ranges more easily than a hierarchy of files. I'm not a specialist in this, but my point in this, is that it is easy to fetch this big file from the build page (or use the tools to create it theirself). And as it looks like all this is very good cache-able I think it is better then having a more heavy solution like mapservers or mapproxy servers? I'm ok both with a Object storage solution (with range requests if I'm right) OR with some small proxy in front to handle xyz/pbf requests. My impression is that there is js for browsers to obtain the bits via range requests and then render. Is there a plugin that will effectively fetch the tiles from this alternate (non-TMS, non-OGC) representation? And then render? Or is your idea to obtain vector data, and have a separate qgis-specific rendering pipeline? We could start (with the xyz version which is already available (after getting a key): https://api.protomaps.com/tiles/v2/{z}/{x}/{y}.pbf?key= crux here is to get styles which work in QGIS. I also do like the work of Jochen Topf (see an earlier mail of me): https://dev.jochentopf.com/osm/{z}/{x}/{y}.pbf with style https://dev.jochentopf.com/projects/map/colorful.json Crux there is to setup the infrastructure (including postgis/osm) and creation of tiles. Saying "host a 110 Gb" file leads to the obvious question of update rate, but monthly updates would be decent for many uses. Not sure, but as a basemap lacks a lot of details, once per 1,2 or 3 months seems reasonable to me? But this is vector. Are you suggesting that this be geodetic in ITF2014, instead of projected? No, just that people maybe prefer (national) vector tile sets in their own local crs's. Maybe I'm the only one looking for World-maps :-) I wonder how this compares to loading OSM in postgis and styling it. It would be nice to have consistent methods so that one can mix and match the various architectural (vs GIS) layers in the stack without them being siloed. I've been trying that, but styling is too much work for me, the labeling alone (have all the proper fonts available) is already a lot of work. Regards, Richard ___ QGIS-User mailing list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] International/Local Labeled World Basemap in QGIS. Protomaps?
Richard Duivenvoorde via QGIS-User writes: > Looking at Protomaps [0], and see that it's tools are OpenSource, data > from OSM data, and you should be able to host a 110Gb file via CDN as > basemap. Two more thoughts: I, and I suspect many others, often want basemaps for a much more limited area. For 95% of what I do, a basemap that only covers Massachusetts, US, is just fine. It would be great if I could take a regional extract and produce by own file that is only 200 or so MB. I realize that's more of a comment about protomaps, and likely supported, unless there's some doctrine against it, but I wanted to inject the thought into qgis planning. I think this is mostly just "be able to point to file or URL of your choice" and everything else is bug fixes. I am unclear on how we are dealing with the required OSM attribution in qgis. I have added OSM tiles with quickosm, and the main map view lacks attribution. I did publish a pdf map of local conservation, and I was careful in the map composer to attribute OSM (required) and MassGIS (polite). I suspect at least some are not so careful. Leaflet has a default or at least more in-the-groove attribution path, and I think adding OSM to qgis should too. This is not specifically about this vs TMS, but if starting from scratch I think we should significantly try. ___ QGIS-User mailing list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
Re: [Qgis-user] International/Local Labeled World Basemap in QGIS. Protomaps?
Richard Duivenvoorde via QGIS-User writes: > Looking at Protomaps [0], and see that it's tools are OpenSource, data > from OSM data, and you should be able to host a 110Gb file via CDN as > basemap. I have been hearing about this and due to excitement inertia I am still in the stage of finding it sort of interesting. I am not sure how I feel about "range requests are the right answer" vs tiles, as from a CS viewpoint it seems to be the same thing and it feels a little like "you have to do it our way now", and it's not clear to me that there is a layer that basically extracts tiles from the big file, separating the tiles/range issue from the rest. I hope it is that way. I can see that currently people can host a big file with ranges more easily than a hierarchy of files. My impression is that there is js for browsers to obtain the bits via range requests and then render. Is there a plugin that will effectively fetch the tiles from this alternate (non-TMS, non-OGC) representation? And then render? Or is your idea to obtain vector data, and have a separate qgis-specific rendering pipeline? Saying "host a 110 Gb" file leads to the obvious question of update rate, but monthly updates would be decent for many uses. > Would it be an idea (doable) for us as QGIS Community to host/CDN > this, make sure we can handle a couple of styles/themes very well and > then add it to QGIS as base map ( EPSG:3857 only sorry :-) )? > > OR would 'we' prefer to have vector tiles in 'proper' crs's? Generally tiles are available in 3857, so that seems ok. But this is vector. Are you suggesting that this be geodetic in ITF2014, instead of projected? If so, are you trying to resolve: 3857 is icky from a theoretical perspective, the earth not being spherical? you don't want projected coordinates? WGS84 as referenced by 3857 is an ensemble, and some members are 2m different, and therefore anything in 3857 is low accuracy unless you have a secret side agreement? > Myself I'm looking for a proper WORLD-map with both English and Local > labels/placenames (or easy switchable between those). > And even downloading a 100Gb file and installing locally would be OK > for me. > > Others maybe had a look or better idea's? It seems like nice functionality to have, even if the hosting doesn't happen. I wonder how this compares to loading OSM in postgis and styling it. It would be nice to have consistent methods so that one can mix and match the various architectural (vs GIS) layers in the stack without them being siloed. ___ QGIS-User mailing list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
[Qgis-user] International/Local Labeled World Basemap in QGIS. Protomaps?
Hi All, Looking at Protomaps [0], and see that it's tools are OpenSource, data from OSM data, and you should be able to host a 110Gb file via CDN as basemap. Would it be an idea (doable) for us as QGIS Community to host/CDN this, make sure we can handle a couple of styles/themes very well and then add it to QGIS as base map ( EPSG:3857 only sorry :-) )? OR would 'we' prefer to have vector tiles in 'proper' crs's? Myself I'm looking for a proper WORLD-map with both English and Local labels/placenames (or easy switchable between those). And even downloading a 100Gb file and installing locally would be OK for me. Others maybe had a look or better idea's? Regards, Richard Duivenvoorde [0] https://github.com/protomaps ___ QGIS-User mailing list QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user