Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[Greg Troxel]

I think the real problem is the convention of using MGRS bands without
saying MGRS.   So that leads me to procedure names and comments:

utm_zone_ns (UTM zone numbers north or south)
utm_zone_mgrs_band (UTM zones with MGRS latitude band designators)

I think it's necessary to make both clear, because some readers will be
aware of one convention and not the other.

I think it's important to avoid representing things like "19T" as just
"UTM" because really they are not.


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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[Nicolas Cadieux]

Hi,

I have add a  google drive link to the world MGRS. This should help.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HeTOUCHrOF4dqLXyebO33nUwioYGnGbI/view?usp=sharing

Nicolas

On 2021-02-08 9:34 a.m., C Hamilton wrote:
I should have jumped in on this conversation over the weekend 
especially since I am the author of Lat Lon Tools. but all who 
responded have properly addressed the problems with UTM and 
especially with how MGRS got mixed in with UTM and the confusion with 
N & S. What Lat Lon Tools provides is the standard UTM coordinates 
without the MGRS latitude bands. I have been considering adding 
another function that provides the alternative UTM with MGRS latitude 
bands.


If anyone has any suggestions on the best way to present these two 
different UTM versions that helps to avoid ambiguity, please let me know.


Thanks,

Calvin

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 2:19 PM Eric Sorensen > wrote:


As Greg and others point out, I appear to be using the UTM zone
term inappropriately.  My apologies.

What I am after in my label, is the MGRS flavor that includes the
latitude band, and agrees with the image shown in this link;

https://docs.qgis.org/3.4/en/_images/utm_zones.png


After you folks successfully educated me on this, I came up with
the following;

concat(name, ', ',  mgrs_gzd($Y, $X), ' ', format_number(utm_east(
$Y, $X), 0), ' ',  format_number(utm_north( $Y, $X), 0))

Which gets me a label like this for the point I originally supplied;
Park, 13S 384,258 3,974,547

This is how my Garmin GPS displays coordinates of waypoints (sans
the commas), and how someone would input the point into their gps,
after I hand them a map I have created in QGIS.  Now to eliminate
the commas.

Thank you all for your input,
es



On Feb 6, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Greg Troxel mailto:g...@lexort.com>> wrote:


Eric Sorensen mailto:e@me.com>> writes:


 
   2262.18896499826



The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know
the points are in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.

Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.


That latitude is north, and in New Mexico.  Why do you think it's
zone
13S?



Beware of the confusion between grid zones from MGRS, not technically
part of UTM, and UTM north/south.  See


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Transverse_Mercator_coordinate_system#Notation



So it seems the UTM output uses S and N -- which is what I would
expect
for straight UTM without a MGRS flavor.

If you moved north, you could be in 13T, from 40-48 degrees, and not
have this issue, but then you'd have more snow :-)



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--
Nicolas Cadieux
https://gitlab.com/njacadieux

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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[C Hamilton]

Those are great suggestions. I have put this on my to-do list, but given
that I have a number of tasks already that I need to accomplish, it may be
a few weeks before I will be able to work on it.

On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 12:56 PM chris hermansen 
wrote:

> Calvin and list,
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 6:35 AM C Hamilton  wrote:
>
>> I should have jumped in on this conversation over the weekend especially
>> since I am the author of Lat Lon Tools. but all who responded have properly
>> addressed the problems with UTM and especially with how MGRS got mixed in
>> with UTM and the confusion with N & S. What Lat Lon Tools provides is the
>> standard UTM coordinates without the MGRS latitude bands. I have been
>> considering adding another function that provides the alternative UTM with
>> MGRS latitude bands.
>>
>> If anyone has any suggestions on the best way to present these two
>> different UTM versions that helps to avoid ambiguity, please let me know.
>>
>>
> A suggestion, yes.
>
> This site https://www.maptools.com/tutorials/utm/quick_guide doesn't make
> it completely obvious that they are talking about MGRS.  Moreover it makes
> demonstrably false claims like
>
> The 10S is the Grid Zone Designation you are in. *The Grid Zone is
>> necessary to make the coordinates unique over the entire globe*. (my
>> emphasis here).
>>
> This site https://www.spatialreference.org/ref/epsg/wgs-84-utm-zone-10s/
> makes the use of N and S as zones north of the equator and zones south of
> the equator completely clear, but doesn't mention MGRS.
>
> Not to mention the Wikipedia article quoted awhile back in this
> conversation, which refers to both in an unclear fashion.
>
> So my suggestion to you is that you make it clear that you are referring
> to UTM Zones as described by the spatialreference.org site and not UTM
> Grid Zone Designations (or MGRS if you like) as described by maptools.com.
> You may even want to be explicit in saying that there are only N and S
> designators in UTM Zones and they refer to metres north of the equator vs
> metres north of the -80th parallel.
>
> You could call the version you have right now "UTM Zones" and the version
> you might develop "UTM Grid Zone Designations".  Or maybe the latter as
> "UTM MGRS".
>
>
> --
> Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com
>
> C'est ma façon de parler.
>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[chris hermansen]

Calvin and list,

On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 6:35 AM C Hamilton  wrote:

> I should have jumped in on this conversation over the weekend especially
> since I am the author of Lat Lon Tools. but all who responded have properly
> addressed the problems with UTM and especially with how MGRS got mixed in
> with UTM and the confusion with N & S. What Lat Lon Tools provides is the
> standard UTM coordinates without the MGRS latitude bands. I have been
> considering adding another function that provides the alternative UTM with
> MGRS latitude bands.
>
> If anyone has any suggestions on the best way to present these two
> different UTM versions that helps to avoid ambiguity, please let me know.
>
>
A suggestion, yes.

This site https://www.maptools.com/tutorials/utm/quick_guide doesn't make
it completely obvious that they are talking about MGRS.  Moreover it makes
demonstrably false claims like

The 10S is the Grid Zone Designation you are in. *The Grid Zone is
> necessary to make the coordinates unique over the entire globe*. (my
> emphasis here).
>
This site https://www.spatialreference.org/ref/epsg/wgs-84-utm-zone-10s/
makes the use of N and S as zones north of the equator and zones south of
the equator completely clear, but doesn't mention MGRS.

Not to mention the Wikipedia article quoted awhile back in this
conversation, which refers to both in an unclear fashion.

So my suggestion to you is that you make it clear that you are referring to
UTM Zones as described by the spatialreference.org site and not UTM Grid
Zone Designations (or MGRS if you like) as described by maptools.com.  You
may even want to be explicit in saying that there are only N and S
designators in UTM Zones and they refer to metres north of the equator vs
metres north of the -80th parallel.

You could call the version you have right now "UTM Zones" and the version
you might develop "UTM Grid Zone Designations".  Or maybe the latter as
"UTM MGRS".


-- 
Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com

C'est ma façon de parler.
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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[C Hamilton]

I should have jumped in on this conversation over the weekend especially
since I am the author of Lat Lon Tools. but all who responded have properly
addressed the problems with UTM and especially with how MGRS got mixed in
with UTM and the confusion with N & S. What Lat Lon Tools provides is the
standard UTM coordinates without the MGRS latitude bands. I have been
considering adding another function that provides the alternative UTM with
MGRS latitude bands.

If anyone has any suggestions on the best way to present these two
different UTM versions that helps to avoid ambiguity, please let me know.

Thanks,

Calvin

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 2:19 PM Eric Sorensen  wrote:

> As Greg and others point out, I appear to be using the UTM zone term
> inappropriately.  My apologies.
>
> What I am after in my label, is the MGRS flavor that includes the latitude
> band, and agrees with the image shown in this link;
>
> https://docs.qgis.org/3.4/en/_images/utm_zones.png
>
> After you folks successfully educated me on this, I came up with the
> following;
>
> concat(name, ', ',  mgrs_gzd($Y, $X), ' ',   format_number(utm_east( $Y,
> $X), 0), ' ',  format_number(utm_north( $Y, $X), 0))
>
> Which gets me a label like this for the point I originally supplied;
> Park, 13S 384,258 3,974,547
>
> This is how my Garmin GPS displays coordinates of waypoints (sans the
> commas), and how someone would input the point into their gps, after I hand
> them a map I have created in QGIS.  Now to eliminate the commas.
>
> Thank you all for your input,
> es
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>
> Eric Sorensen  writes:
>
>  
>2262.18896499826
>
>
> The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know the
> points are in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.
>
> Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.
>
>
> That latitude is north, and in New Mexico.  Why do you think it's zone
> 13S?
>
> 
>
> Beware of the confusion between grid zones from MGRS, not technically
> part of UTM, and UTM north/south.  See
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Transverse_Mercator_coordinate_system#Notation
>
> So it seems the UTM output uses S and N -- which is what I would expect
> for straight UTM without a MGRS flavor.
>
> If you moved north, you could be in 13T, from 40-48 degrees, and not
> have this issue, but then you'd have more snow :-)
>
>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[Eric Sorensen]

As Greg and others point out, I appear to be using the UTM zone term 
inappropriately.  My apologies.

What I am after in my label, is the MGRS flavor that includes the latitude 
band, and agrees with the image shown in this link;

https://docs.qgis.org/3.4/en/_images/utm_zones.png 


After you folks successfully educated me on this, I came up with the following;

concat(name, ', ',  mgrs_gzd($Y, $X), ' ',   format_number(utm_east( $Y, $X), 
0), ' ',  format_number(utm_north( $Y, $X), 0))

Which gets me a label like this for the point I originally supplied;
Park, 13S 384,258 3,974,547

This is how my Garmin GPS displays coordinates of waypoints (sans the commas), 
and how someone would input the point into their gps, after I hand them a map I 
have created in QGIS.  Now to eliminate the commas.

Thank you all for your input,
es


> On Feb 6, 2021, at 11:41 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> 
> Eric Sorensen  writes:
> 
>>  
>>2262.18896499826
> 
>> The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know the points 
>> are in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.
>> 
>> Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.
> 
> That latitude is north, and in New Mexico.  Why do you think it's zone
> 13S?
> 
> 
> 
> Beware of the confusion between grid zones from MGRS, not technically
> part of UTM, and UTM north/south.  See
> 
>  
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Transverse_Mercator_coordinate_system#Notation
> 
> So it seems the UTM output uses S and N -- which is what I would expect
> for straight UTM without a MGRS flavor.
> 
> If you moved north, you could be in 13T, from 40-48 degrees, and not
> have this issue, but then you'd have more snow :-)
> 

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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[Eric Sorensen]

I’ll have to disagree with you Chris.  Zone 13N has a southern boarder that 
lies on the equator.


> On Feb 6, 2021, at 11:33 AM, chris hermansen  wrote:
> 
> Eric and list,
> 
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 10:18 Eric Sorensen mailto:e@me.com>> 
> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have waypoints from a Garmin GPS that I import from a gpx file into a 
> vector layer.
> 
> In the gpx file, they are of the form;
> 
>   
> 2262.18896499826
> 2021-02-05T18:03:05Z
> Park
> Flag, Blue
> user
> 
>   
> SymbolAndName
>   
>   
> SymbolAndName
>   
>   
> 2021-02-05T18:03:05Z
>   
> 
>   
> 
> 
> They appear in the correct location in my project.  Now, I am trying to 
> display a label at each point using rule-based labeling with the following 
> expression;
> 
> concat(name, ', ', utm($Y, $X))
> 
> The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know the points 
> are in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.
> 
> Your lat long 35,-106 are far west in the northern hemisphere. Therefore the 
> UTM zone is 13N not 13S.
> 
> This is somewhere near Memphis Tennessee if I am not wrong.
> 
> 
> If you're expecting -35,-106 that's somewhere out in the Pacific far west of 
> Santiago Chile
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.
> 
> Maybe you want -35,+106?

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[Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[Eric Sorensen]

Hi,

I have waypoints from a Garmin GPS that I import from a gpx file into a vector 
layer.

In the gpx file, they are of the form;

  
2262.18896499826
2021-02-05T18:03:05Z
Park
Flag, Blue
user

  
SymbolAndName
  
  
SymbolAndName
  
  
2021-02-05T18:03:05Z
  

  


They appear in the correct location in my project.  Now, I am trying to display 
a label at each point using rule-based labeling with the following expression;

concat(name, ', ', utm($Y, $X))

The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know the points are 
in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.

Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.

Mac OS 10.14.6
QGIS 3.14.15-Pi
Lat Lon Tools 3.5.0

Thanks,
Eric
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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[chris hermansen]

Sorry, correction: between 80° S and the equator.

https://epsg.io/32713

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 10:55 chris hermansen  wrote:

> David and list
>
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 10:50 David Strip  wrote:
>
>> On 2/6/2021 11:33 AM, chris hermansen wrote:
>>
>>
>> Your lat long 35,-106 are far west in the northern hemisphere. Therefore
>> the UTM zone is 13N not 13S.
>>
>> This is somewhere near Memphis Tennessee if I am not wrong.
>>
>> Actually, that's pretty close to me. It's in Los Alamos, NM. (I'm about
>> 75 miles WNW).
>>
>> There is some confusion about the naming of UTM zones. According to
>> Wikipedia
>> ,
>> the latitude bands are not part of the UTM description, but rather from the
>> MGRS. Nonetheless, UTM grid references are sometimes given, creating the
>> ambiguity between 13S meaning latitude band S vs. meaning a UTM coordinate
>> south of the equator. In the case of the coordinates given here, 13N means
>> zone 13 north, and is not a latitude band reference.
>>
>
> The latitude band thing is different than the N or S convention, I believe.
>
> 13N gives metres north of the equator.
>
> 13S gives metres north of the south pole.
>
>>
>>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[chris hermansen]

David and list

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 10:50 David Strip  wrote:

> On 2/6/2021 11:33 AM, chris hermansen wrote:
>
>
> Your lat long 35,-106 are far west in the northern hemisphere. Therefore
> the UTM zone is 13N not 13S.
>
> This is somewhere near Memphis Tennessee if I am not wrong.
>
> Actually, that's pretty close to me. It's in Los Alamos, NM. (I'm about 75
> miles WNW).
>
> There is some confusion about the naming of UTM zones. According to
> Wikipedia
> ,
> the latitude bands are not part of the UTM description, but rather from the
> MGRS. Nonetheless, UTM grid references are sometimes given, creating the
> ambiguity between 13S meaning latitude band S vs. meaning a UTM coordinate
> south of the equator. In the case of the coordinates given here, 13N means
> zone 13 north, and is not a latitude band reference.
>

The latitude band thing is different than the N or S convention, I believe.

13N gives metres north of the equator.

13S gives metres north of the south pole.

>
>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[Hernán De Angelis]

On 2021-02-06 19:50, David Strip wrote:

On 2/6/2021 11:33 AM, chris hermansen wrote:


Your lat long 35,-106 are far west in the northern hemisphere. 
Therefore the UTM zone is 13N not 13S.


This is somewhere near Memphis Tennessee if I am not wrong.

Actually, that's pretty close to me. It's in Los Alamos, NM. (I'm 
about 75 miles WNW).


There is some confusion about the naming of UTM zones. According to 
Wikipedia 
, 
the latitude bands are not part of the UTM description, but rather 
from the MGRS. Nonetheless, UTM grid references are sometimes given, 
creating the ambiguity between 13S meaning latitude band S vs. meaning 
a UTM coordinate south of the equator. In the case of the coordinates 
given here, 13N means zone 13 north, and is not a latitude band 
reference. 


I was writing an answer about this but David did it faster.

There is more than one confusion here. As David writes, the OP was 
referring to latitude bands, N vs S, that have no relation to the 
hemispheres. Just an unfortunate coincidence.


Zone 13N (not 13 North, but band N) has a limit on the Equator (0° - 
8°N). The coordinates shown are on 13S (32°N - 40°N).


Thos who have access to it, check the map in page 62 of Snyder (Map 
projections - a working manual)



/H.

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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[David Strip]

  
  
On 2/6/2021 11:33 AM, chris hermansen wrote:

  
  
Your lat long 35,-106 are far west in the
  northern hemisphere. Therefore the UTM zone is 13N not 13S.


This is somewhere near Memphis Tennessee if I am
  not wrong.


  

Actually, that's pretty close to me. It's in Los Alamos, NM. (I'm
about 75 miles WNW).

There is some confusion about the naming of UTM zones. According to
Wikipedia,
the latitude bands are not part of the UTM description, but rather
from the MGRS. Nonetheless, UTM grid references are sometimes given,
creating the ambiguity between 13S meaning latitude band S vs.
meaning a UTM coordinate south of the equator. In the case of the
coordinates given here, 13N means zone 13 north, and is not a
latitude band reference. 

  

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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[chris hermansen]

Greg and list,

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 10:41 Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> Eric Sorensen  writes:
>
> >   
> > 2262.18896499826
>
> > The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know the
> points are in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.
> >
> > Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.
>
> That latitude is north, and in New Mexico.  Why do you think it's zone
> 13S?
>

Sorry all, I googled 35,-106 and it came up in Memphis. Checked again in
Google Maps and I agree with Greg, definitely New Mexico and not Tennessee.

>
>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[chris hermansen]

Eric and list,

Eric, not sure what you're disagreeing with.

35 latitude is 35 north, sort of Denver-ish.

Not south of equator.

-35 latitude is 35 south of equator.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 10:42 Eric Sorensen  wrote:

> I’ll have to disagree with you Chris.  Zone 13N has a southern boarder
> that lies on the equator.
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2021, at 11:33 AM, chris hermansen 
> wrote:
>
> Eric and list,
>
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 10:18 Eric Sorensen  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have waypoints from a Garmin GPS that I import from a gpx file into a
>> vector layer.
>>
>> In the gpx file, they are of the form;
>>
>>   
>> 2262.18896499826
>> 2021-02-05T18:03:05Z
>> Park
>> Flag, Blue
>> user
>> 
>>   
>> SymbolAndName
>>   
>>   
>> SymbolAndName
>>   
>>   
>> 2021-02-05T18:03:05Z
>>   
>> 
>>   
>>
>>
>> They appear in the correct location in my project.  Now, I am trying to
>> display a label at each point using rule-based labeling with the following
>> expression;
>>
>> concat(name, ', ', utm($Y, $X))
>>
>> The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know the
>> points are in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.
>>
>
> Your lat long 35,-106 are far west in the northern hemisphere. Therefore
> the UTM zone is 13N not 13S.
>
> This is somewhere near Memphis Tennessee if I am not wrong.
>
>
> If you're expecting -35,-106 that's somewhere out in the Pacific far west
> of Santiago Chile
>
>
>> Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.
>>
>
> Maybe you want -35,+106?
>
>>
>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[Greg Troxel]

Eric Sorensen  writes:

>   
> 2262.18896499826

> The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know the points 
> are in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.
>
> Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.

That latitude is north, and in New Mexico.  Why do you think it's zone
13S?



Beware of the confusion between grid zones from MGRS, not technically
part of UTM, and UTM north/south.  See

  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Transverse_Mercator_coordinate_system#Notation

So it seems the UTM output uses S and N -- which is what I would expect
for straight UTM without a MGRS flavor.

If you moved north, you could be in 13T, from 40-48 degrees, and not
have this issue, but then you'd have more snow :-)



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Re: [Qgis-user] Lat Lon Tools question

[chris hermansen]

Eric and list,

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021, 10:18 Eric Sorensen  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have waypoints from a Garmin GPS that I import from a gpx file into a
> vector layer.
>
> In the gpx file, they are of the form;
>
>   
> 2262.18896499826
> 2021-02-05T18:03:05Z
> Park
> Flag, Blue
> user
> 
>   
> SymbolAndName
>   
>   
> SymbolAndName
>   
>   
> 2021-02-05T18:03:05Z
>   
> 
>   
>
>
> They appear in the correct location in my project.  Now, I am trying to
> display a label at each point using rule-based labeling with the following
> expression;
>
> concat(name, ', ', utm($Y, $X))
>
> The labels appear as expected, except one small problem.  I know the
> points are in UTM zone 13S, yet the label shows zone 13N.
>

Your lat long 35,-106 are far west in the northern hemisphere. Therefore
the UTM zone is 13N not 13S.

This is somewhere near Memphis Tennessee if I am not wrong.


If you're expecting -35,-106 that's somewhere out in the Pacific far west
of Santiago Chile


> Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong.
>

Maybe you want -35,+106?

>
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