Re: [Qgis-user] Looking for assistance with fixing RTL label bugs

[Micha Silver via QGIS-User]

  
  
Again thanks for your efforts. I'm sure we'll land
on the source of the prob, and find a solution. As I said, I
don't think this is a QGIS issue. The underlying bidi library
should handle this, AFAIK.

  
On 29/05/2024 4:34, Nyall Dawson wrote:


  Thanks for your insights Micha!

Unfortunately I can't solve this one given my lack of language
knowledge. I'll step aside and let a native RTL language developer
take over. I've introduced some tests in
https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/57586 which could be a starting
point for someone.

Nyall

On Tue, 28 May 2024 at 19:13, Micha Silver  wrote:

  


On 28/05/2024 11:34, Nyall Dawson wrote:

Hi Micha,


On Tue, 28 May 2024, 6:28 pm Micha Silver,  wrote


  
Thanks for following up on this.

The few details (that are mentioned in the issue tracker) that might help track down the root of the problem:


1- There was no issue up to 3.28. The reports appeared only on 3.30 and above.

2- I'm pretty sure that it occurs only on Windows, and only Win 11. Just now checked again on my Debian machine, with 3.36, and the problem does not appear, and never has.

3- Somehow I think this might be a Qt problem. Do you know if there were any Qt changes in Win installs between 3.28 and 3.30.x?




Actually, if it works on a given platform, it's by accident and not design . There's no tests covering this and I don't think it's been actually thought out by design.

So my questions related to high level design decisions, like:

- should the switch to rtl layout determined by the content of a label alone? Or is it determined by the font choice? Or the users locale? Or should it be an explicit choice set per layer, so that the project will appear

In my opinion, by the content alone. Not font choice since many fonts have glyphs in both RTL and LTR languages. Not user's locale, since a map can contain text in different RTL languages even if the locale LANG setting is Western LTR. Not by layer, since user's can have multiple text attributes with text in different languages in each.  In full featured word processors there is, of course, a button to choose text directionality on a per-paragraph level. But I don't think implementing that is required for map labels.


identical when shared with a user using a different locale for their qgis?
- how should mixed ltr and rtl string work? Should users be required to manually insert rtl / ltr unicode markers?

Traditionally that has been handled by the underlying bidi library. All the problematic edge cases of (i.e. a period within a string of numbers should be LTR but a period at the end of RTL language string should be assumed to be at the end of the RTL string), are taken care of by that library. I'm pretty sure this was the case with <=3.28.x. I wouldn't expect users to know how to insert RTL unicode. We just switch the keyboard language.


- how should rtl be handled with respect to multiline text alignment?

Ideally, alignment (as opposed to RTL directionality) should be user configurable. I believe you have already done this with the legend that allows aligning legend items to the right or left.

But, regarding map labels, a minimalist approach would be to always align RTL text to the right, and LTR text to the left. (Don't let "perfect be the enemy of good")


- is rtl placement of characters determined by graphemes? Ie do we split the string to graphemes and then lay these out right to left? Or is it done on individual characters?

Not sure I understand. But as above, the underlying bidi library should be handling the cases of individual characters that might be RTL in some cases, and LTR in others.


Cheers



Nyall


  

If I can be of any further help testing, let me know. i.e. I can update a colleague's machine, and prepare a very simple test project...


Best, Micha


On 28/05/2024 5:56, Nyall Dawson via QGIS-User wrote:

Hi lists,

I'm looking for some assistance in fixing the right-to-left labeling
issues described in https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/54098 . While
I can fix the code issues, I don't have the linguistic understanding
to know how right-to-left text SHOULD behave in QGIS labels!

Is there anyone out there from a RTL language background who can add
the missing information to the above ticket and help get this bug
fixed?

Nyall
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--
Micha Silver
Ben Gurion Univ.
Sde Boker, Remote Sensing Lab
cell: +972-523-665918



--
Micha Silver
Ben Gurion Univ.
Sde Boker, Remote Sensing Lab
cell: +972-523-665918

  

-- 
Micha Silver
Ben Gurion Univ.
Sde Boker, Remote Sensing Lab
cell: +972-523-665918
  

___
QGIS-User 

Re: [Qgis-user] Looking for assistance with fixing RTL label bugs

[Nyall Dawson via QGIS-User]

Thanks for your insights Micha!

Unfortunately I can't solve this one given my lack of language
knowledge. I'll step aside and let a native RTL language developer
take over. I've introduced some tests in
https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/57586 which could be a starting
point for someone.

Nyall

On Tue, 28 May 2024 at 19:13, Micha Silver  wrote:
>
>
> On 28/05/2024 11:34, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>
> Hi Micha,
>
>
> On Tue, 28 May 2024, 6:28 pm Micha Silver,  wrote
>>
>> Thanks for following up on this.
>>
>> The few details (that are mentioned in the issue tracker) that might help 
>> track down the root of the problem:
>>
>>
>> 1- There was no issue up to 3.28. The reports appeared only on 3.30 and 
>> above.
>>
>> 2- I'm pretty sure that it occurs only on Windows, and only Win 11. Just now 
>> checked again on my Debian machine, with 3.36, and the problem does not 
>> appear, and never has.
>>
>> 3- Somehow I think this might be a Qt problem. Do you know if there were any 
>> Qt changes in Win installs between 3.28 and 3.30.x?
>
>
> Actually, if it works on a given platform, it's by accident and not design . 
> There's no tests covering this and I don't think it's been actually thought 
> out by design.
>
> So my questions related to high level design decisions, like:
>
> - should the switch to rtl layout determined by the content of a label alone? 
> Or is it determined by the font choice? Or the users locale? Or should it be 
> an explicit choice set per layer, so that the project will appear
>
> In my opinion, by the content alone. Not font choice since many fonts have 
> glyphs in both RTL and LTR languages. Not user's locale, since a map can 
> contain text in different RTL languages even if the locale LANG setting is 
> Western LTR. Not by layer, since user's can have multiple text attributes 
> with text in different languages in each.  In full featured word processors 
> there is, of course, a button to choose text directionality on a 
> per-paragraph level. But I don't think implementing that is required for map 
> labels.
>
>
> identical when shared with a user using a different locale for their qgis?
> - how should mixed ltr and rtl string work? Should users be required to 
> manually insert rtl / ltr unicode markers?
>
> Traditionally that has been handled by the underlying bidi library. All the 
> problematic edge cases of (i.e. a period within a string of numbers should be 
> LTR but a period at the end of RTL language string should be assumed to be at 
> the end of the RTL string), are taken care of by that library. I'm pretty 
> sure this was the case with <=3.28.x. I wouldn't expect users to know how to 
> insert RTL unicode. We just switch the keyboard language.
>
>
> - how should rtl be handled with respect to multiline text alignment?
>
> Ideally, alignment (as opposed to RTL directionality) should be user 
> configurable. I believe you have already done this with the legend that 
> allows aligning legend items to the right or left.
>
> But, regarding map labels, a minimalist approach would be to always align RTL 
> text to the right, and LTR text to the left. (Don't let "perfect be the enemy 
> of good")
>
>
> - is rtl placement of characters determined by graphemes? Ie do we split the 
> string to graphemes and then lay these out right to left? Or is it done on 
> individual characters?
>
> Not sure I understand. But as above, the underlying bidi library should be 
> handling the cases of individual characters that might be RTL in some cases, 
> and LTR in others.
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Nyall
>>
>>
>> If I can be of any further help testing, let me know. i.e. I can update a 
>> colleague's machine, and prepare a very simple test project...
>>
>>
>> Best, Micha
>>
>>
>> On 28/05/2024 5:56, Nyall Dawson via QGIS-User wrote:
>>
>> Hi lists,
>>
>> I'm looking for some assistance in fixing the right-to-left labeling
>> issues described in https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/54098 . While
>> I can fix the code issues, I don't have the linguistic understanding
>> to know how right-to-left text SHOULD behave in QGIS labels!
>>
>> Is there anyone out there from a RTL language background who can add
>> the missing information to the above ticket and help get this bug
>> fixed?
>>
>> Nyall
>> ___
>> QGIS-User mailing list
>> QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org
>> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>>
>> --
>> Micha Silver
>> Ben Gurion Univ.
>> Sde Boker, Remote Sensing Lab
>> cell: +972-523-665918
>
> --
> Micha Silver
> Ben Gurion Univ.
> Sde Boker, Remote Sensing Lab
> cell: +972-523-665918
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Re: [Qgis-user] Looking for assistance with fixing RTL label bugs

[Micha Silver via QGIS-User]

  
  


On 28/05/2024 11:34, Nyall Dawson
  wrote:


  
  
Hi Micha,

  
  
On Tue, 28 May 2024,
  6:28 pm Micha Silver, 
  wrote

  
Thanks for following up on this. 
  
The few details (that are mentioned in
the issue tracker) that might help track down the
root of the problem:

  
1- There was no issue up to 3.28. The
reports appeared only on 3.30 and above.
2- I'm pretty sure that it occurs only
on Windows, and only Win 11. Just now checked again
on my Debian machine, with 3.36, and the problem
does not appear, and never has.
  
3- Somehow I think this might be a Qt
problem. Do you know if there were any Qt changes in
Win installs between 3.28 and 3.30.x?
  

  



Actually, if it works on a given platform, it's
  by accident and not design . There's no tests covering this
  and I don't think it's been actually thought out by design.


So my questions related to high level design
  decisions, like:


- should the switch to rtl layout determined by
  the content of a label alone? Or is it determined by the font
  choice? Or the users locale? Or should it be an explicit
  choice set per layer, so that the project will appear 
  

In my opinion, by the content alone. Not font choice since
  many fonts have glyphs in both RTL and LTR languages. Not user's
  locale, since a map can contain text in different RTL languages
  even if the locale LANG setting is Western LTR. Not by layer,
  since user's can have multiple text attributes with text in
  different languages in each.  In full featured word processors
  there is, of course, a button to choose text directionality on a
  per-paragraph level. But I don't think implementing that is
  required for map labels.



  
identical when shared with a user using a
  different locale for their qgis?
- how should mixed ltr and rtl string work?
  Should users be required to manually insert rtl / ltr unicode
  markers?
  

Traditionally that has been handled by the underlying bidi
  library. All the problematic edge cases of (i.e. a period within a
  string of numbers should be LTR but a period at the end of RTL
  language string should be assumed to be at the end of the RTL
  string), are taken care of by that library. I'm pretty sure this
  was the case with <=3.28.x. I wouldn't expect users to know how
  to insert RTL unicode. We just switch the keyboard language. 




  
- how should rtl be handled with respect to
  multiline text alignment?
  

Ideally, alignment (as opposed to RTL directionality) should be
  user configurable. I believe you have already done this with the
  legend that allows aligning legend items to the right or left.
But, regarding map labels, a minimalist approach would be to
  always align RTL text to the right, and LTR text to the left.
  (Don't let "perfect be the enemy of good")




  
- is rtl placement of characters determined by
  graphemes? Ie do we split the string to graphemes and then lay
  these out right to left? Or is it done on individual
  characters?
  

Not sure I understand. But as above, the underlying bidi library
  should be handling the cases of individual characters that might
  be RTL in some cases, and LTR in others.


Cheers



  


Nyall

  

  

  
If I can be of any further help
testing, let me know. i.e. I can update a
colleague's machine, and prepare a very simple test
project...

  
Best, Micha
  

  
On 28/05/2024 5:56, Nyall Dawson via QGIS-User
  wrote:


  Hi lists,

I'm looking for some assistance in fixing the right-to-left labeling
issues described in https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/54098 . While
I can fix the code issues, I don't have the linguistic understanding
to know how right-to-left text SHOULD behave in QGIS labels!

Is there anyone out there from a 

Re: [Qgis-user] Looking for assistance with fixing RTL label bugs

[Nyall Dawson via QGIS-User]

Hi Micha,


On Tue, 28 May 2024, 6:28 pm Micha Silver,  wrote

> Thanks for following up on this.
>
> The few details (that are mentioned in the issue tracker) that might help
> track down the root of the problem:
>
>
> 1- There was no issue up to 3.28. The reports appeared only on 3.30 and
> above.
>
> 2- I'm pretty sure that it occurs only on Windows, and only Win 11. Just
> now checked again on my Debian machine, with 3.36, and the problem does not
> appear, and never has.
>
> 3- Somehow I think this might be a Qt problem. Do you know if there were
> any Qt changes in Win installs between 3.28 and 3.30.x?
>

Actually, if it works on a given platform, it's by accident and not design
. There's no tests covering this and I don't think it's been actually
thought out by design.

So my questions related to high level design decisions, like:

- should the switch to rtl layout determined by the content of a label
alone? Or is it determined by the font choice? Or the users locale? Or
should it be an explicit choice set per layer, so that the project will
appear identical when shared with a user using a different locale for their
qgis?
- how should mixed ltr and rtl string work? Should users be required to
manually insert rtl / ltr unicode markers?
- how should rtl be handled with respect to multiline text alignment?
- is rtl placement of characters determined by graphemes? Ie do we split
the string to graphemes and then lay these out right to left? Or is it done
on individual characters?

Nyall

>
> If I can be of any further help testing, let me know. i.e. I can update a
> colleague's machine, and prepare a very simple test project...
>
>
> Best, Micha
>
>
> On 28/05/2024 5:56, Nyall Dawson via QGIS-User wrote:
>
> Hi lists,
>
> I'm looking for some assistance in fixing the right-to-left labeling
> issues described in https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/54098 . While
> I can fix the code issues, I don't have the linguistic understanding
> to know how right-to-left text SHOULD behave in QGIS labels!
>
> Is there anyone out there from a RTL language background who can add
> the missing information to the above ticket and help get this bug
> fixed?
>
> Nyall
> ___
> QGIS-User mailing listqgis-u...@lists.osgeo.org
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user
>
> --
> Micha Silver
> Ben Gurion Univ.
> Sde Boker, Remote Sensing Lab
> cell: +972-523-665918
>
>
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Re: [Qgis-user] Looking for assistance with fixing RTL label bugs

[Micha Silver via QGIS-User]

  
  
Hi Nyall:
Thanks for following up on this. 
  
The few details (that are mentioned in the issue
tracker) that might help track down the root of the problem:

  
1- There was no issue up to 3.28. The reports
appeared only on 3.30 and above.
2- I'm pretty sure that it occurs only on Windows,
and only Win 11. Just now checked again on my Debian machine,
with 3.36, and the problem does not appear, and never has.
  
3- Somehow I think this might be a Qt problem. Do
you know if there were any Qt changes in Win installs between
3.28 and 3.30.x?

  
If I can be of any further help testing, let me
know. i.e. I can update a colleague's machine, and prepare a
very simple test project...

  
Best, Micha
  

  
On 28/05/2024 5:56, Nyall Dawson via
  QGIS-User wrote:


  Hi lists,

I'm looking for some assistance in fixing the right-to-left labeling
issues described in https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/54098 . While
I can fix the code issues, I don't have the linguistic understanding
to know how right-to-left text SHOULD behave in QGIS labels!

Is there anyone out there from a RTL language background who can add
the missing information to the above ticket and help get this bug
fixed?

Nyall
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-- 
Micha Silver
Ben Gurion Univ.
Sde Boker, Remote Sensing Lab
cell: +972-523-665918
  

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Re: [Qgis-user] Looking for assistance with fixing RTL label bugs

[Richard Duivenvoorde via QGIS-User]

Nyall,

I cannot read a RTL language myself, but we do have some RTL languages as 
site/documentation translations.

If I remember correct it was actually pretty easy and worked remarkebly good 
for the site:

See for example: https://qgis.org/fa/site/

All rtl language inclused this css:

https://qgis.org/fa/_static/qgis-style-rtl.css

with only:

body {
direction: rtl !important;
}


in it.

Not sure if that is possible on other elements though.

Regards, hoping this is helpful :-)

Richard Duivenvoorde



On 5/28/24 04:56, Nyall Dawson via QGIS-User wrote:

Hi lists,

I'm looking for some assistance in fixing the right-to-left labeling
issues described in https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/54098 . While
I can fix the code issues, I don't have the linguistic understanding
to know how right-to-left text SHOULD behave in QGIS labels!

Is there anyone out there from a RTL language background who can add
the missing information to the above ticket and help get this bug
fixed?

Nyall
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[Qgis-user] Looking for assistance with fixing RTL label bugs

[Nyall Dawson via QGIS-User]

Hi lists,

I'm looking for some assistance in fixing the right-to-left labeling
issues described in https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/issues/54098 . While
I can fix the code issues, I don't have the linguistic understanding
to know how right-to-left text SHOULD behave in QGIS labels!

Is there anyone out there from a RTL language background who can add
the missing information to the above ticket and help get this bug
fixed?

Nyall
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