RE: Bounce Loops?

[Stephen Bosch]

> (Note: This story is only to-the-best-of-my-recollection; if you want to 
> repost it elsewhere or otherwise distribute it, please let me 
> know and I'll 
> see if I can get my friend to write it up with the details in place and 
> corrected so you can send out the true and accurate version 
> rather than my 
> messed-up retelling. Thanks.)

Oh, you MUST get him to give a detailed recollection -- that story is gold!

-Stephen-

PS: Please tell Mr. Mahler to stop sending me spam, too.

Re: Bounce Loops?

[Kai MacTane]

At 3/18/2000 12:56 PM -0500, Bob Rogers wrote or quoted:

>Users reply to the damnedest things.  If an MTA is configured to
>generate mail from "rumpelstiltskin", then it ought to be configured to
>accept mail for "rumpelstiltskin" as well.

I would have to agree with this first sentence. I have a friend who works 
in Hotmail's customer support center, and he had to deal with a woman who 
claimed that she couldn't send mail to anyone, and she was getting spammed 
by someone named "Damon Mahler".

After much useless question-asking, my friend got her to forward him these 
spams, and they of course turned out to be messages from Mailer-Daemon, 
trying to inform her that her mail couldn't get anywhere because she needed 
to include host names (or something similarly bogus).

There were also a bunch of replies from the woman to "Mr. Mahler" asking 
him not to send her any more mail.

My friend informed this lady at great length that there was no Mr. Mahler 
out there on the Internet sending her spam; that Mailer-Daemon was a 
program, not a human being; and that she needed to do whatever in order to 
send out her mail.

She did not believe him. Apparently some friend of hers told her that the 
idea was ridiculous, and that of course mere pieces of software couldn't 
send people emails, and she decided to take that person's word for it over 
that of a (very correct) Hotmail technician.

For all I know, the woman is still persisting in sending mail to "Mr. Damon 
Mahler", or has cancelled her Hotmail service because they can't get Mr. 
Mahler to stop spamming her.

(Note: This story is only to-the-best-of-my-recollection; if you want to 
repost it elsewhere or otherwise distribute it, please let me know and I'll 
see if I can get my friend to write it up with the details in place and 
corrected so you can send out the true and accurate version rather than my 
messed-up retelling. Thanks.)

-
  Kai MacTane
  System Administrator
   Online Partners.com, Inc.
-
 From the Jargon File: (v4.0.0, 25 Jul 1996)

house wizard /n./

A hacker occupying a technical-specialist, R&D, or systems position
at a commercial shop. A really effective house wizard can have influ-
ence out of all proportion to his/her ostensible rank and still not
have to wear a suit.

Re: Bounce Loops?

[Bob Rogers]

   From: Bruno Wolff III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:16:57 -0600

   . . . It is debatable whether or not adding an alias for
   MAILER-DAEMON is useful. Double bounce replies shouldn't be sent back
   to MAILER-DAEMON and humans should send requests to the postmaster if
   the problem is something a postmaster can help with.

Users reply to the damnedest things.  If an MTA is configured to
generate mail from "rumpelstiltskin", then it ought to be configured to
accept mail for "rumpelstiltskin" as well.

-- Bob Rogers

Re: Bounce Loops?

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 08:56:41PM +0100,
  Magnus Bodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Yes, according to RFC 2142. 
> 
> But as qmail is bouncing in the name of mailer-daemon, it would be nice to
> implement that too.

The envelope sender address is set to the empty address even though
MAILER-DAEMON is used in the from header. It is debateable whether or
not adding an alias for MAILER-DAEMON is useful. Double bounce replies shouldn't
be sent back to MAILER-DAEMON and humans should send requests to the postmaster
if the problem is something a postmaster can help with.

Also note that best practices require an 'abuse' address as well as a
postmaster address.

Re: Bounce Loops?

[Magnus Bodin]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 11:37:08AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Adam McKenna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > No.  If you installed qmail correctly, you would have created an account
> > called mailer-daemon, which is required to be RFC compliant.
> 
> I believe the only required e-mail account is postmaster.

Yes, according to RFC 2142. 

But as qmail is bouncing in the name of mailer-daemon, it would be nice to
implement that too.

/magnus

-- 
http://x42.com/

Re: Bounce Loops?

[Adam McKenna]

Really?  I thought root and mailer-daemon were requirements.

OK, how about "If you installed qmail according to the instructions in
my HOWTO, LWQ or README.alias" :)

--Adam

On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 11:37:08AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Adam McKenna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > No.  If you installed qmail correctly, you would have created an account
> > called mailer-daemon, which is required to be RFC compliant.
> 
> I believe the only required e-mail account is postmaster.
> 
> -- 
> Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
> 

Re: Bounce Loops?

[Russ Allbery]

Adam McKenna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> No.  If you installed qmail correctly, you would have created an account
> called mailer-daemon, which is required to be RFC compliant.

I believe the only required e-mail account is postmaster.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 

Re: Bounce Loops?

[Adam McKenna]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:41:45AM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hmmm, I guess I wasn't asking exactly what I want. I need to know how QMail
> detects a message as being a bounced bounce.
>  
> Example:
>  
> Mr.Spammer sends email to my QMail server. The envelope has a non-existent
> return address. The msg is sent to a non-existent user on my system. So,
> QMail bounces the message, but that bounce is bounced back to QMail.
>  
> The problem was that the bounced bounce was sent to "MAILER-DAEMON" at my
> localhost. Unfortunately that account did not exist, so this msg was
> bounced. Loop.

No.  If you installed qmail correctly, you would have created an account
called mailer-daemon, which is required to be RFC compliant.

--Adam

RE: Bounce Loops?

[smanjourides]

Title: RE: Bounce Loops?



Hmmm, I guess I wasn't asking exactly what I want. I 
need to know how QMail detects a message as being a bounced 
bounce.
 
Example:
 
Mr.Spammer sends email to my QMail server. The envelope 
has a non-existent return address. The msg is sent to a non-existent user on my 
system. So, QMail bounces the message, but that bounce is bounced back to 
QMail.
 
The problem was that the bounced bounce was sent to 
"MAILER-DAEMON" at my localhost. Unfortunately that account did not exist, so 
this msg was bounced. Loop.
 
I'm now dropping all mail to "MAILER-DAEMON" (see my 
previous question on this list), but I wanted to make sure this is the correct 
procedure.
 
Thanks again,
 
- Scott

  -Original Message-From: Stephen Mills 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 6:26 
  PMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; 
  '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: Bounce 
Loops?
  man qmail-send reveals all 
  Cheers --Stephen 
  -Original Message- From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 12:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Bounce 
  Loops? 
  How does QMail handle bounced bounces? 
  - Scott 

RE: Bounce Loops?

[Stephen Mills]

Title: RE: Bounce Loops?





man qmail-send reveals all 


Cheers
--Stephen


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 12:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Bounce Loops?



How does QMail handle bounced bounces?


- Scott