Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
Am 14.11.2016 um 14:46 schrieb Robert Mittendorf: > One basic principle of usability is to make it hard to make mistakes > (including destroying work/files). Imagine a guy dressed in an elaborate tin can standing behind you, kicking you down some cliff shouting "THIS... IS... UINX...". Really, it is. Failing to copy a file is nothing dramatic. Nothing is destroyed, nothing erased. Let some air out of the elephant until you can recognize the shape of the original mosquito, would you? > As I stated before I think the protocol would not have to become "more > non-unidirectional" to improve on this. Why don't you just write a proof -of-concept and put it on github? If it is working well and showin an improvement I'm sure someone will add it to the Qubes repositories. They are not that dogmatic. Achim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/75b2f969-3036-89ef-6e52-83e99dee5579%40noses.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 04:16:37AM -0800, Andrew David Wong wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > On 2016-11-14 04:03, Salmiakki wrote: > > On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 10:31:25 AM UTC+1, Robert Mittendorf wrote: > >> On 2016-11-11 14:58, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote: > >>> > > Actually I don't think it is a good idea. File copy protocol is > > intentionally very simple, including being unidirectional. We don't > >>> want > > to add any non-essential features there, to keep it as simple as > > possible. > >>> > BTW None of file copying tools I know do that (cp, rsync, scp, ...). > >> Well, I somewhat understand the first argument, but not the second. To > >> have a bad usability and waste poeple's time just because other tools do > >> is not a good argument I think. > >> > >> Obviously it is not unidirectional, otherwise the source would not know > >> "out of disk space". This does not have to be an interactive feature, > >> though. > >> Why not give the "out of disk space" error before accepting the > >> transfer? The communication from sink to source would be the same, but > >> less time would be wasted. > > > > Maybe it could be done more general by just popping up a warning saying > > "this VM is low on disk space". > > It would not work for cases where you transfer extremely large files (or at > > least it would only display the warning after transferring quite a large > > chunk). > > However, it would also work for everything else! > > For example I once had a problem because I decided to sync my entire imap > > folder for my mail VM and that is larger than 2 GB. The problem was > > actually kind of hard to spot. Ideally of course, the warning would be > > accompanied by an option to just extend the space (since it seems to be > > possible to do that while the VM is running anyway). > > > > I've actually seen such a warning in 3.1 and earlier (haven't had cause to > see it yet in 3.2), so it must already exist in some sense (or did exist). I > never bothered to look into how the threshold is calculated, though. > > - -- > Andrew David Wong (Axon) > Community Manager, Qubes OS > https://www.qubes-os.org That message is thrown by the qube itself. It's a standard free space check, not a Qubes thing. On the question of "bad usability" it looks like horses for courses. I personally don't want a warning if I've already started to clear out space on the target. And if I'm transferring files as they are being written, what use would the measure of free disk space be? It isn't the TOOL here that will "waste people's time". They waste their own time by not checking beforehand. There are some OS and tools that try to fix this, but you see plenty of users baffled by the way they work, and unsure why the warning arise. Best to keep it simple imo. unman -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20161114133538.GA9627%40thirdeyesecurity.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 2016-11-14 04:03, Salmiakki wrote: > On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 10:31:25 AM UTC+1, Robert Mittendorf wrote: >> On 2016-11-11 14:58, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote: >>> > Actually I don't think it is a good idea. File copy protocol is > intentionally very simple, including being unidirectional. We don't >>> want > to add any non-essential features there, to keep it as simple as > possible. >>> BTW None of file copying tools I know do that (cp, rsync, scp, ...). >> Well, I somewhat understand the first argument, but not the second. To >> have a bad usability and waste poeple's time just because other tools do >> is not a good argument I think. >> >> Obviously it is not unidirectional, otherwise the source would not know >> "out of disk space". This does not have to be an interactive feature, >> though. >> Why not give the "out of disk space" error before accepting the >> transfer? The communication from sink to source would be the same, but >> less time would be wasted. > > Maybe it could be done more general by just popping up a warning saying "this > VM is low on disk space". > It would not work for cases where you transfer extremely large files (or at > least it would only display the warning after transferring quite a large > chunk). > However, it would also work for everything else! > For example I once had a problem because I decided to sync my entire imap > folder for my mail VM and that is larger than 2 GB. The problem was actually > kind of hard to spot. Ideally of course, the warning would be accompanied by > an option to just extend the space (since it seems to be possible to do that > while the VM is running anyway). > I've actually seen such a warning in 3.1 and earlier (haven't had cause to see it yet in 3.2), so it must already exist in some sense (or did exist). I never bothered to look into how the threshold is calculated, though. - -- Andrew David Wong (Axon) Community Manager, Qubes OS https://www.qubes-os.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYKascAAoJENtN07w5UDAwJv0P/jiO/pGfAyIGv+eENZ35Z1GY +dR3udiEvJJvtMV3kPzaY3uOGwF72jwesjdwQo3DxgOZWpeMH5JzJQdHvx1WXoqp dmpAJJ8VV0tI2JErI6gpxjKo47oIlog1g83u0p6iRksYE7wtqj4+4jsCsZiXO/B3 hsCFBV0f4UhlRPeBr9G23CJ93vn5sgcBvgnvN1whQRCBMZgVRATakmsmkpio0yIH YbuqGjp35zZZyOGL4ZOybzxEPWiBoZPB+wXDHr1YLQGEhMaZfnKtPgt2HHu39WL/ nw8qotIjUaD3/bFOHncc90yIfpnQZKZaBwxk+hdW+1Rnecv/NiN4l33O+MiPNiRW wrab84LMvoYJal9J35nVQrxAd+Hmpi/G96Lkr1TQTbnhsIA40+LkGLAxK4Gl9Gl/ 8h+irOcYW+z7AQ76XqiRt/GLNGNhSVbPBj1MAfo48PUo9og31FizlDnoumQdrUYc eAkZ/pjkcbsB2L73jrjYajHahIUkTbXmrUlZAU5mkjjCIjEJ7S7EzngGkSKayN4E xvZzYZygOydXVcYCFWOewkhphpIUTPcihaXZZGfRKTpYivm7/6I9/0HX3eGl1JGQ qNAIBaaLm/n8JYa5+3ADHZONLl+HHKZj2arWrmbNKQac5iCnpUMEZ69w04dbIYzy nLrYKL4b+LA/hZrB6pt8 =MNnR -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7027bb1c-4e40-331e-2db6-bbeb012ab670%40qubes-os.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 10:31:25 AM UTC+1, Robert Mittendorf wrote: > On 2016-11-11 14:58, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote: > > > > >> Actually I don't think it is a good idea. File copy protocol is > > >> intentionally very simple, including being unidirectional. We don't > > want > > >> to add any non-essential features there, to keep it as simple as > > >> possible. > > > > > BTW None of file copying tools I know do that (cp, rsync, scp, ...). > Well, I somewhat understand the first argument, but not the second. To > have a bad usability and waste poeple's time just because other tools do > is not a good argument I think. > > Obviously it is not unidirectional, otherwise the source would not know > "out of disk space". This does not have to be an interactive feature, > though. > Why not give the "out of disk space" error before accepting the > transfer? The communication from sink to source would be the same, but > less time would be wasted. Maybe it could be done more general by just popping up a warning saying "this VM is low on disk space". It would not work for cases where you transfer extremely large files (or at least it would only display the warning after transferring quite a large chunk). However, it would also work for everything else! For example I once had a problem because I decided to sync my entire imap folder for my mail VM and that is larger than 2 GB. The problem was actually kind of hard to spot. Ideally of course, the warning would be accompanied by an option to just extend the space (since it seems to be possible to do that while the VM is running anyway). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/abd42d94-3ba6-4499-a95b-dc35f3583615%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
On 2016-11-11 14:58, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote: > > >> Actually I don't think it is a good idea. File copy protocol is > >> intentionally very simple, including being unidirectional. We don't > want > >> to add any non-essential features there, to keep it as simple as > >> possible. > > > BTW None of file copying tools I know do that (cp, rsync, scp, ...). Well, I somewhat understand the first argument, but not the second. To have a bad usability and waste poeple's time just because other tools do is not a good argument I think. Obviously it is not unidirectional, otherwise the source would not know "out of disk space". This does not have to be an interactive feature, though. Why not give the "out of disk space" error before accepting the transfer? The communication from sink to source would be the same, but less time would be wasted. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/c750d45f-d9bd-0fe4-7a3f-f4682ff78c24%40digitrace.de. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 2016-11-11 14:58, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 11:57:07PM +0100, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote: >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 02:34:16PM -0800, Andrew David Wong wrote: >>> On 2016-11-10 08:16, Robert Mittendorf wrote: I just copied a file from dom0 to a AppVM via qvm-copy-to-vm. The file transfer started until the private storage was full. It would be better to check the free disk space size before executing the copy command. regards, Robert >>> >>> Good suggestion. Thank you! >>> >>> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2429 > >> Actually I don't think it is a good idea. File copy protocol is >> intentionally very simple, including being unidirectional. We don't want >> to add any non-essential features there, to keep it as simple as >> possible. > > BTW None of file copying tools I know do that (cp, rsync, scp, ...). > Oh, ok! Fair enough! - -- Andrew David Wong (Axon) Community Manager, Qubes OS https://www.qubes-os.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYJlNnAAoJENtN07w5UDAwx9wP/jRPsCXbukFCL77N57hQ4jiP 4VK8zEiVKtFeHl7NGp8QNBLecDHN+wHmw1PD2uKWiMJRRpqkrPHZS1NCcwFii+IA 0AowwU5OkpAM/48TeSgB0+ss9R9bV8/G8B/zrmaMQuE0EEA/xVFnKN3sCqPZL1aU 9kbLfgvITfbdrwl1V0frxZR18e1I5j+eNyvwjC3QFmc3aMrU486VsVwKD/0KBKgu hUj2tXsgXGBaIJ2KJflt0qHQCuYljjFa7KElVZ/O9Gq1Md9+4roP2iMSqunQcdpH fX0w8iHGU+zGPssCv2NZ7CJ1kfdhv6RI9YzuGF+DoKYICXS46imOS8aQGDnMMYIu SoaxLRJklN4TwbV2GXn9TmzAb+Svv2IFj0f/zPhMjQAhLmKpvkmEJpzQvj54eR2g Fsx8OA7ESpPEalw/cR5fBpmWWHVWwd00GI2JC1cU4xqRVgOIqTWei0TQuT1NRPUA /7Bd7/9BVwNcTWOFBmn8XVBJvG0LtYAnwVPb8RAHYazE4GH89fNoNFzPJbYO6+yw KDSv6I3YguwXCP3pv8jPYV/zr7HXKRnL80Xmq4hFs9pOwlioQZpq1Lp8EWzUkYLG m18lxXicsKS/HMLL9g54l94zhYVC9SzTXBkK9KmoLRxkGumzLCeXFmngHNnDh0Cs 0zLdR1MVNLtf6kPge6oy =6pmL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/151c6d79-09bf-6885-cdd5-0dcc415f9d6d%40qubes-os.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 11:57:07PM +0100, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 02:34:16PM -0800, Andrew David Wong wrote: > > On 2016-11-10 08:16, Robert Mittendorf wrote: > > > I just copied a file from dom0 to a AppVM via qvm-copy-to-vm. > > > The file transfer started until the private storage was full. > > > It would be better to check the free disk space size before executing > > > the copy command. > > > > > > regards, > > > Robert > > > > > > > Good suggestion. Thank you! > > > > https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2429 > > Actually I don't think it is a good idea. File copy protocol is > intentionally very simple, including being unidirectional. We don't want > to add any non-essential features there, to keep it as simple as > possible. BTW None of file copying tools I know do that (cp, rsync, scp, ...). - -- Best Regards, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki Invisible Things Lab A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJYJk0cAAoJENuP0xzK19cs83gH/iV9H3AeWAWm9QUaRA/Q2pME f04xhnqz5h54JGIQHvRfYy3XqkGsomC1QzFpSUMnIVAeAXNFfENfVzy5sHSEh/b6 V24tNY2RGl5sNeZMCyVvz3LW10n+nuBdpQ/8lrsYaRSqMAkcI4UyCkl8+Ve5MO/z sOqyFP/T6UbG75JLvlDmAthtNrxQ55D3jYbJ01ZpCKqYfEBKtY2iMCGzJOZLLnA1 IdCqArR0RiQxll/qLuOnscyj5q6wy3KnQsEHulVjjEGP5rYngkfBgwWu3j2W6app Gkl8BunTL6JK9HC2N/D8HpJygCTbI1DmAq5vh0AEEWgy8pGCUxEufvCB/i6j9iM= =Fh8Q -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/2016225837.GI7073%40mail-itl. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 02:34:16PM -0800, Andrew David Wong wrote: > On 2016-11-10 08:16, Robert Mittendorf wrote: > > I just copied a file from dom0 to a AppVM via qvm-copy-to-vm. > > The file transfer started until the private storage was full. > > It would be better to check the free disk space size before executing > > the copy command. > > > > regards, > > Robert > > > > Good suggestion. Thank you! > > https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2429 Actually I don't think it is a good idea. File copy protocol is intentionally very simple, including being unidirectional. We don't want to add any non-essential features there, to keep it as simple as possible. - -- Best Regards, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki Invisible Things Lab A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJYJkzCAAoJENuP0xzK19cs8Z8H/iWhG46WGSl/i2G6pzpyuUg5 dgAvz+UqgEWwQQVlYFA4tLqWcKbNaBhZB5n+MX8zFPU2MnBS6DCcbxx5DgpPc2Dn SDGx/snbf+6GMBRFPXLtUdfgYTCK8l57NsKYY7nc+5P0IUBn2VV5swRe1WQ7rzMP n5C9uLSVYpWfZs4FE65hRDCGLU/POCCnZvUkLXc0Mmk2VHHlOwkdCADECnSzpqTa F2l0BsaIWYcIY+MCckj1oDZMLVsRa6MPs5O6mZ7nqzCs7dzEjJnRAR15T21u9BHh SJWLW3o2ON+wsmRVi0EftfgOMJObPEIKTXtADRDN/u2wFC2EVH6THWJgXPWt+lM= =8CN/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/2016225707.GH7073%40mail-itl. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 2016-11-10 08:16, Robert Mittendorf wrote: > I just copied a file from dom0 to a AppVM via qvm-copy-to-vm. > The file transfer started until the private storage was full. > It would be better to check the free disk space size before executing > the copy command. > > regards, > Robert > Good suggestion. Thank you! https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2429 - -- Andrew David Wong (Axon) Community Manager, Qubes OS https://www.qubes-os.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYJkdmAAoJENtN07w5UDAwjrIQAKcmYvgJB/pWzbrE008+SejT mSJd1r3lUE8cXnXbP0iP3iw0Lt8VuItmmoIF22TGtiN6Yyu0GU/d752E9dBEY22w W5Buvni0gU3We/s+2jvdkT8WcugZoYxH8V8hQ3qE/pyNoTADZNj5jEF+YRN29NVb BFWzOZqqYxnzzgJxxM0RWht1CC67D79jq2BpQbQbyZdyquhPA7pHGUglvP31JEFO Dp36VI+npJyTA/jvBP9VQ2dG5OVZnhrxcShUAPBJ8rbw92w7AfzeXqjChNIcmqwX RxVkSygfvotkHvh5dii84MYbF1f0rc7tdX95bN5f4qDu1JtSU/hRvLGSYMUezeNN nBJK+5vmW8YPptYZni3gX0P+R1D+TTBaxBhEgKefw2yWENELwVWkeIbaN8PEGqN2 dQMgOhU5L9YYqxT92hSI7U/iHbQi3GfPn4oVE/rFRIgbzqvuFGpj1smHxb5NMHR8 f0Fo6OAE57cqZImad9ItvQCtpefs4mBFQqsLWxMaAd4Iv2VjjJ2TC1Qsb5yDk5kJ zMMfGU6Xd7Yr863ujsy3j1wFKNGtScTmzAUKoBZbhOW1RkkyHe2RtJRDtLETThHC C0IweUjRwGJdoKwWRT4B2JlH6GiwTj7oVfpO8Tkmpe97BPvmKE6N0aH/PleAztYC kKyJ5acIovRGQfMvIZs0 =KY90 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/093a989c-be84-e17b-8baa-e586ef7d877a%40qubes-os.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Improvement: check disk space before copy to VM
I just copied a file from dom0 to a AppVM via qvm-copy-to-vm. The file transfer started until the private storage was full. It would be better to check the free disk space size before executing the copy command. regards, Robert -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/19c2764c-2055-eabe-a946-36a8254aeeae%40digitrace.de. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
