Re: [ntp:questions] Query about NTP accuracy

[Hal Murray]

In article <1243711613.525...@news1nwk>,
 Brian Utterback  writes:
>David Woolley wrote:

>> It only requires 2.  The argument about having four initially is about 
>> having a clear majority even after rejecting one.
>
>I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that 4 servers allow 
>you to have a failed server and then outvote a falseticker. I don't 
>think that is true. And it definitely takes three servers to outvote 
>one falseticker in some cases. NTP deals in intervals, and it takes 
>two servers to define one interval, and then one more to make that 
>interval outvote all the others possible intervals. So, three servers 
>will always outvote a single falseticker, but two will not always 
>outvote a single falseticker.

What cases does it take 3 servers to outvote a falseticker?

I thought the idea behind using 4 severs was that 3 was the magic
number (2 could outvote a falseticker) and you still had 3 after
1 (of the 4) died.

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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[David J Taylor]

Maarten Wiltink wrote:
> "David J Taylor"
>  wrote
> in message news:qzaul.35766$oo7.25...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> Maarten Wiltink wrote:
>
>>> A Windows 2000 without IPv6 says 'Ordinal not found : The ordinal
>>> 3852 could not be located in the dynamic link library LIBEAY32.dll.'
>>>
>>> Copying the DLL into the directory didn't help, either.
>
>> What libeay32.dll do you have?  Mine is dated 13-Jan-2009, and is
>> 1,105,392 bytes.  file version 0.9.8.10, product version, 0.9.8j (I
>> think).  It's in the ntp\bin\ directory.  ntpd.exe is working fine -
>> Windows 2000 server, no IPv6.
>
> It came with NTP-4.2.0 Windows binaries dated 2003-10-17. The DLL is
> dated 2003-06-04, 827 392 bytes, no version information.
>
> Groetjes,
> Maarten Wiltink

Maarten,

The one I have is from the VegasV2 release, and is more recent.  If you 
don't have that somewhere, I could e-mail it.

Cheers,
David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[David J Taylor]

Maarten Wiltink wrote:
[]> It came with NTP-4.2.0 Windows binaries dated 2003-10-17. The DLL is
> dated 2003-06-04, 827 392 bytes, no version information.
> 
> Groetjes,
> Maarten Wiltink

The newer file is here if you need it:

  http://www.satsignal.eu/libeay32.zip

Cheers,
David

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Re: [ntp:questions] different Ntp servers...

[David Woolley]

Hal Murray wrote:

> 
> I was thinking of the case where you had 2 servers and
> one of them was off by many seconds (or many days).  One
> was clearly broken, but how do you tell which one?

I believe the largest intersecting interval is zero in that case, and 
both get classified as false tickers, so not eligible for averaging.
> 
> Taking the average will guarantee that you get a bad time.
> 

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[ntp:questions] ntp.conf pool pool.ntp.org preempt (was ntpd 4.2.4p5 pool pool.ntp.org preempt)

[E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists]

 > BlackList wrote:
 >> A few Q, re:ntpd 4.2.4p5 pool pool.ntp.org preempt
 >> It appears that the ntp.conf, pool command isn't yet implemented?
 >>  e.g. pool 1.north-america.pool.ntp.org
 >
 > After a little more research, it seems I should be
 >  checking out at least ntp-dev-4.2.5p86 ?

Now having tried 4.2.5p180 which does support
   pool pool.ntp.org preempt in the ntp.conf (yea!) e.g.

server ntp.vendor.example.com preempt prefer iburst minpoll 5 maxpoll 11
server ntp.hosting.ISP.example.org minpoll 6 maxpoll 11
server ntp1.upstream.ISP.example.net minpoll 6 maxpoll 11
server ntp2.upstream.ISP.example.net minpoll 6 maxpoll 11

pool 0.vendor.pool.ntp.org preempt minpoll 7 maxpoll 14
pool 1.vendor.pool.ntp.org preempt minpoll 7 maxpoll 14
pool 2.vendor.pool.ntp.org preempt minpoll 7 maxpoll 14
pool 3.vendor.pool.ntp.org preempt minpoll 7 maxpoll 14


  Questions come to mind
   re:
 >>> Additional Notes ... If your Internet provider has a timeserver, ...
 >>>   you should use that and not this list.
 >>>
Done, although the closest 2/3 are off by 40-50ms
  from most of the world (as is their "GPS" ref server).
  {weird}

 >>> Additional Notes ... Be friendly ... don't use more than
 >>>  three time servers in your configuration

 As a query to any one of 0.vendor.pool.ntp.org ,
  country.pool.ntp.org , 0.country.pool.ntp.org ,
   pool.ntp.org , ... currently returns _five_ A records.

Does this mean only one pool entry should be used (at most)?


  What would a vendor's NTP server(s) ntp conf be expected to be like?

  e.g. ntp.vendor.example.com
peer ntp1.vendor.example.com prefer iburst minpoll 4
peer ntp2.vendor.example.com prefer iburst minpoll 4
pool 1.vendor.pool.ntp.org preempt minpoll 7 maxpoll 14

  e.g. ntp1.vendor.example.com
server 127.127.20.0 prefer
fudge 127.127.20.0 flag3 1
peer ntp.vendor.example.com prefer iburst minpoll 5
peer ntp2.vendor.example.com prefer iburst minpoll 4
pool 2.vendor.pool.ntp.org preempt minpoll 7 maxpoll 14

  e.g. ntp2.vendor.example.com
server 127.127.5.0 prefer
fudge 127.127.5.0 refid CDMA
peer ntp.vendor.example.com prefer iburst minpoll 5
peer ntp1.vendor.example.com prefer iburst minpoll 4
pool 3.vendor.pool.ntp.org preempt minpoll 7 maxpoll 14


  What would be a good default / example
   for a vendor's (client) software or appliances?

server ntp.vendor.example.com preempt prefer iburst minpoll 5 maxpoll 11
pool 0.vendor.pool.ntp.org preempt minpoll 7 maxpoll 14

  With recommendations to change the default,
   when a local NTP server is available?

server ntp.internal.lan prefer
server ntp.vendor.example.com preempt

  or
broadcastclient
server ntp.vendor.example.com preempt

  or
multicastclient ntp.internal.lan
server mc.ntp.vendor.example.com preempt

{Where ntp.internal.lan is a NTP server on the same network
  as the application or appliance (ntp client).}

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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[Maarten Wiltink]

"David J Taylor"
 wrote in
message news:qzaul.35766$oo7.25...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> Maarten Wiltink wrote:

>> A Windows 2000 without IPv6 says 'Ordinal not found : The ordinal 3852
>> could not be located in the dynamic link library LIBEAY32.dll.'
>>
>> Copying the DLL into the directory didn't help, either.

> What libeay32.dll do you have?  Mine is dated 13-Jan-2009, and is
> 1,105,392 bytes.  file version 0.9.8.10, product version, 0.9.8j (I
> think).  It's in the ntp\bin\ directory.  ntpd.exe is working fine -
> Windows 2000 server, no IPv6.

It came with NTP-4.2.0 Windows binaries dated 2003-10-17. The DLL is
dated 2003-06-04, 827 392 bytes, no version information.

Groetjes,
Maarten Wiltink


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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[Dave Hart]

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Danny Mayer  wrote:
> David J Taylor wrote:
>> 30/05/2009 06:37:45 NTP Error None 1 N/A BACCHUS setsockopt(208,
>> SO_EXCLUSIVEADDRUSE, on): Invalid argument
>
> I remember seeing that too on my Windows 2000 server as well but I
> didn't get around to looking at it before. That's because Dave created
> an ifdef around the function call. However it's always defined for
> Windows because he defined it in config.h. What is really needed here is
> a run-time check for Windows version to see if it can be set. However
> this was first made available in NT 4.0 SP4 so it should be supported
> and I don't see why it would fail in this way. I think that the real
> reason for this problem is that it is not available to anyone but
> admistrators before XP.

I think Danny put his finger on it with the administrators group.  I
had forgotten that ugly little wrinkle.  I suspect the messages would
go away if David Taylor put his "ntp" user in the Administrators group
temporarily:

net localgroup administrators ntp /add

and to return to normal:

net localgroup administrators ntp /del

I'm not sure a runtime check is useful, though, except to decide at
runtime to not log this particular error code on systems earlier than
XP.   Attempting to set it still seems like the right thing to me.

Cheers,
Dave Hart
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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[Danny Mayer]

Maarten Wiltink wrote:
> "David J Taylor"
>  wrote in
> message news:qzaul.35766$oo7.25...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> Maarten Wiltink wrote:
> 
>>> A Windows 2000 without IPv6 says 'Ordinal not found : The ordinal 3852
>>> could not be located in the dynamic link library LIBEAY32.dll.'
>>>
>>> Copying the DLL into the directory didn't help, either.
> 
>> What libeay32.dll do you have?  Mine is dated 13-Jan-2009, and is
>> 1,105,392 bytes.  file version 0.9.8.10, product version, 0.9.8j (I
>> think).  It's in the ntp\bin\ directory.  ntpd.exe is working fine -
>> Windows 2000 server, no IPv6.
> 
> It came with NTP-4.2.0 Windows binaries dated 2003-10-17. The DLL is
> dated 2003-06-04, 827 392 bytes, no version information.

Maarten,

The OpenSSL libraries need to exactly match the binaries which build
against it. Unfortunately, the OpenSSL libraries do not try and keep the
ordinals the same between releases so you cannot depend on the dll from
the 0.9.8c release to match that from the 0.9.8d release. For this
reason I always make the builds copy the dll and install into its own
directory along with the specific libeay32.dll that it was built with.
This, among other things, mean that you cannot install the binaries into
system32, wnich you shouldn't do anyway. This also means that you end up
with multiple copies of libeay32.dll for various applications that need
OpenSSL. If the OpenSSL team had created and maintained a .def file with
ordinals in it, this wouldn't have been a problem but they don't do that.

Danny

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[ntp:questions] Hints to write a clock driver

[Juergen Beisert]

Hi,

currently I'm trying to write a clock driver for my selfmade USB based DCF77
receiver. Communication works trough the "usblib", there is no kernel
driver involved. But now I'm in trouble how to forward the time to the
NTPD. There are various DCF77 drivers in the ntp source tree. But they all
are based on a serial device. I have no. I have to poll my USB device two
times a second. My clock device generates a data set with a reference
second pulse - synced to/by the DCF signal - and also provides the raw bit
information sent via DCF in 59 bits for the next minute (one bit per second
like the DCF77 signal does, but already filtered and converted to binary
data).
Is there a way to use anything from the libparse/ directory to let it decode
the DCF bit stream, but _not_ registering and using a serial device?

Another question: How does the time flow works? I read
the "refclock_hopfpci.c" clock driver, as it also does not use a serial
device. It does something in "hopfpci_poll" (struct refclock.clock_poll).
But the comment of this function (and in all the other implementations I
found) is: "called by the transmit procedure". ? Will this function be
called periodically (by ntp)? Or does the clock driver trigger something to
let it be called?

Any hints are welcome.
Juergen

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Re: [ntp:questions] SetSystemTimeAdjustment() on Vista

[Danny Mayer]

johum...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Anybody ever tried to use SetSystemTimeAdjustment() on Vista?
> 

The NTP Reference Implementation uses it for controlling the system
clock. I'm not sure what you are really asking. Dave Hart added some
interpolation code to do a better job of it for Vista and seems to be
okay on earlier versions of Windows. Vista was showing a lot of jitter.

> I tested the accuracy ot the system time on my laptop. During about 6
> hours, the time gets about 1 second too fast. On the basis of the
> description of SetSystemTimeAdjustment(), the TimeAdjust should be
> changed from the default 156001 to 156008. But 156008 makes the time
> too slow. I tried 156002 and it is still too slow, it seems like
> 156001.5 would make it even but you cannot use fractions. In other
> words, the default value 156001 seems to be the best choice. The
> TimeIncrement is 156001. Any insight on this?
> 
> Also, one thing is not clear. The time adjustment is done at each
> interval identified by TimeIncrement which is fixed  15.6001
> millisecond. My question is what happens when the system time is
> updated every 1 millisecond, because on my laptop system time is
> updated mostly every 1 millisecond as long as there is some input
> activity at keyboard or mouse. Does it mean Vista waits until the full
> 15.6001 millisecond is reached when using TimeAdjust?

If you install the latest versions of the NTP reference implementation
you get much better control of the system clock.

Danny

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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[Maarten Wiltink]

"Dave Hart"  wrote in message
news:0fd7b5c0-3f34-4dc7-8d2c-fce10cf4a...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

> You can find binaries at:
>
> http://davehart.net/ntp/win/x86/ntp-4.2.5p180-win-x86-bin.zip
> http://davehart.net/ntp/win/x86/ntp-4.2.5p180-win-x86-debug-bin.zip
>
> Testing on the earliest supported versions of Windows has been light.
> My binaries unfortunately are unable to load on Windows NT 4, at all
> due to the compiler dropping support,
> but I'm particularly interested in results on Windows 2000, with or
> without the IPv6 stack installed.

A Windows 2000 without IPv6 says 'Ordinal not found : The ordinal 3852
could not be located in the dynamic link library LIBEAY32.dll.'

Copying the DLL into the directory didn't help, either.

Groetjes,
Maarten Wiltink


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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[David J Taylor]

Maarten Wiltink wrote:
[]
> A Windows 2000 without IPv6 says 'Ordinal not found : The ordinal 3852
> could not be located in the dynamic link library LIBEAY32.dll.'
>
> Copying the DLL into the directory didn't help, either.
>
> Groetjes,
> Maarten Wiltink

What libeay32.dll do you have?  Mine is dated 13-Jan-2009, and is 
1,105,392 bytes.  file version 0.9.8.10, product version, 0.9.8j (I 
think).  It's in the ntp\bin\ directory.  ntpd.exe is working fine - 
Windows 2000 server, no IPv6.

Cheers,
David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Dave Hart Windows PPS patch set and Atom driver

[hven...@astound.net]

Just a quick follow up.  Dave has supplied me with some updated code
and this seems to be working OK on my machine now.  It appears that
most of the issue I was seeing was corrected when I turned serial port
buffering off.  At this point I am using the Atom (PPS) driver on
Windows since the Oncore driver is not working at this time.

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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[Dave Hart]

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Danny Mayer  wrote:
> The OpenSSL libraries need to exactly match the binaries which build
> against it. Unfortunately, the OpenSSL libraries do not try and keep the
> ordinals the same between releases so you cannot depend on the dll from
> the 0.9.8c release to match that from the 0.9.8d release. For this
> reason I always make the builds copy the dll and install into its own
> directory along with the specific libeay32.dll that it was built with.
> This, among other things, mean that you cannot install the binaries into
> system32, wnich you shouldn't do anyway. This also means that you end up
> with multiple copies of libeay32.dll for various applications that need
> OpenSSL. If the OpenSSL team had created and maintained a .def file with
> ordinals in it, this wouldn't have been a problem but they don't do that.

They must have done something which is really ill-advised and not
default, namely, provided import libraries for their DLLs which link
by ordinal only.  This was common with OS/2 and Win16 NE binaries, but
is very uncommon in Win32.  Typically, imports are done by name.  The
way to avoid string comparisons during DLL loading is to "bind" your
EXEs and DLLs at installation time to the installed system DLLs, which
causes them to already have the correct patches in their IAT (import
address table) for the system DLLs, which are the only ones that vary
from the build environment.  Undoubtedly someone's misguided attempt
at optimization (along with failing to respect the need to then keep
ordinals unchanged between releases, as you note) has resulted in this
pain.  For OpenSSL DLLs, importing by name would make them less
fragile to slightly differing versions and would slow load times only
for those that don't rebind (and even then the extra time is trivial
on modern processors compared to other considerations like I/O speed).

Cheers,
Dave Hart
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Re: [ntp:questions] Dave Hart Windows PPS patch set and Atom driver

[Dave Hart]

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 6:37 PM,  wrote:
> Just a quick follow up.  Dave has supplied me with some updated code
> and this seems to be working OK on my machine now.  It appears that
> most of the issue I was seeing was corrected when I turned serial port
> buffering off.  At this point I am using the Atom (PPS) driver on
> Windows since the Oncore driver is not working at this time.

Are you referring to disabling the FIFO using the device manager
properties page?  This is interesting, I would not have predicted it
would make a difference.  It may be a bug in serialpps.sys, the
codepath I added the timestamp collection to must not be exercised
with your previous settings.

Cheers,
Dave Hart
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Re: [ntp:questions] Hints to write a clock driver

[Dave Hart]

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Juergen Beisert  wrote:
> Another question: How does the time flow works? I read
> the "refclock_hopfpci.c" clock driver, as it also does not use a serial
> device. It does something in "hopfpci_poll" (struct refclock.clock_poll).
> But the comment of this function (and in all the other implementations I
> found) is: "called by the transmit procedure". ? Will this function be
> called periodically (by ntp)? Or does the clock driver trigger something to
> let it be called?

It is called once per polling interval, which for a refclock is
typically either 64s (default) or 16s (minpoll 4 on the server
127.127.t.u line).  If you want to be called once per second, there's
a relatively new timer callback you can set in struct refclock, at
least with current -dev (4.2.5).

Cheers,
Dave Hart
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Re: [ntp:questions] Hints to write a clock driver

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Juergen Beisert wrote:
 > ... clock driver for my selfmade USB based DCF77 receiver.
 > ... Any hints are welcome.

Meinberg appears to have a DCF77 with a USB interface for use
  with their Windows & Linux drivers, ...


  Perhaps you can pick up a few hints there.

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Re: [ntp:questions] Dave Hart Windows PPS patch set and Atom driver

[David J Taylor]

hven...@astound.net wrote:
> Just a quick follow up.  Dave has supplied me with some updated code
> and this seems to be working OK on my machine now.  It appears that
> most of the issue I was seeing was corrected when I turned serial port
> buffering off.  At this point I am using the Atom (PPS) driver on
> Windows since the Oncore driver is not working at this time.

Thanks for reporting back.  Good of Dave to find time to help, and good 
that we are gradually extending the Windows support in NTP.  My thanks to 
all that are helping.

David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Query about NTP accuracy

[Brian Utterback]

Hal Murray wrote:
> In article <1243711613.525...@news1nwk>,
>  Brian Utterback  writes:
>> David Woolley wrote:
> 
>>> It only requires 2.  The argument about having four initially is about 
>>> having a clear majority even after rejecting one.
>> I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that 4 servers allow 
>> you to have a failed server and then outvote a falseticker. I don't 
>> think that is true. And it definitely takes three servers to outvote 
>> one falseticker in some cases. NTP deals in intervals, and it takes 
>> two servers to define one interval, and then one more to make that 
>> interval outvote all the others possible intervals. So, three servers 
>> will always outvote a single falseticker, but two will not always 
>> outvote a single falseticker.
> 
> What cases does it take 3 servers to outvote a falseticker?
> 
> I thought the idea behind using 4 severs was that 3 was the magic
> number (2 could outvote a falseticker) and you still had 3 after
> 1 (of the 4) died.
> 

Nope. NTP works with intervals. Each server has two intervals that it 
is contributing, the offset to the offset minus the dispersion, and 
the offset to the offset plus the dispersion. It then finds the 
interval that has the most overlap. In the case of three servers, any 
particular interval can have one, two or three "votes". When it finds 
the interval with the most votes, it takes the servers that 
contributed (i.e. voted) for that interval as acceptable and goes on 
to the next step, choosing which to use. You can easily see that 
server 1 and 2 might be close together in offset, but there 
dispersions might only overlap a little, giving that overlap two 
votes. Then if server 3 is far away from the other two but has a large 
dispersion, overlapping the dispersion of server two but not all the 
way to its offset, the overlap also has two votes. There is no 
location with 3 votes, so either one might be chosen. Server 3 can 
have a offset and dispersion that does not overlap the real time 
anywhere, which is the definition of a falseticker, and still get chosen.

If you add a fourth server, there will be a combination of that 
overlaps with three, and this will outvote the interval with the 
falseticker that has two. So, you see? It takes 4 servers to outvote a 
falseticker.

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Re: [ntp:questions] NTP 4.2.5p180 adds IPv6 support on Windows

[Maarten Wiltink]

"David J Taylor"
 wrote in
message news:1usul.36097$oo7.26...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> Maarten Wiltink wrote:
>> "David J Taylor"
>>  wrote
>> in message news:qzaul.35766$oo7.25...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>> Maarten Wiltink wrote:

 A Windows 2000 without IPv6 says 'Ordinal not found : The ordinal
 3852 could not be located in the dynamic link library LIBEAY32.dll.'

 Copying the DLL into the directory didn't help, either.
>>
>>> What libeay32.dll do you have?  Mine is dated 13-Jan-2009, and is
>>> 1,105,392 bytes.  file version 0.9.8.10, product version, 0.9.8j (I
>>> think).  It's in the ntp\bin\ directory.  ntpd.exe is working fine -
>>> Windows 2000 server, no IPv6.
>>
>> It came with NTP-4.2.0 Windows binaries dated 2003-10-17. The DLL is
>> dated 2003-06-04, 827 392 bytes, no version information.

> The one I have is from the VegasV2 release, and is more recent.  If you
> don't have that somewhere, I could e-mail it.

As it happens, I recently had cause to install a clean Windows somewhere
and downloaded what turns out to be vegas-v2. As of five minutes ago,
a new NTP is gathering loopstats.

Thanks!

Groetjes,
Maarten Wiltink


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