RE: [R] draft of posting guide
Rather than a separate beginners' mailing list or a posting guide, perhaps what we need is a separate mailing list for discussing posting style? -thomas __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
RE: [R] draft of posting guide
With respect to 'tone' and 'friendliness', perhaps all that is meant or needed is that people be polite and respectful. There is never any need for being rude, either from the asker of questions or from the answerer. I shake my head as often at rude answers as I do at ill-considered questions. Regards, Andrew C. Ward CAPE Centre Department of Chemical Engineering The University of Queensland Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia On Tuesday, December 23, 2003 3:55 AM, Rolf Turner [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is in response to Gabor Grothendieck's commentary on Tony Plate's draft guidelines for question-askers, which was posted a couple of days ago. I disagree, from mildly to vehemently with just about everything in Grothendieck's posting. E.g. the ``tone'' of the draft should not be ``friendlier''. The purpose of the guidelines is to encourage the asking of well-thought out questions and discourage the asking of stupid ones. This politically correct ``don't damage their self esteem attitude'' has no place in the r-help list. A propos of bugs, for the uneducated beginner to assert that there is a ``bug'' in software designed by some of the best and most knowledgeable minds in the discipline, when the software works as documented, is the height of presumptuous arrogance. The guide is and should be a guide for the question-askers. The responders who are voluntarily giving of their time and (often deep) experise need not be constrained. The R package and this help list are free services provided voluntarily by some great people. If someone asks a stupid question and dislikes being told so in so many words, well, that person is free to take his or her business elsewhere. The one point I ***agree*** with is that questions about statistical methodology should not be discouraged in any way, even if they are not directly R-related. There is always some sort of relationship, such questions are interesting, and there is almost always some insight to be gained by thinking about them in an R context. cheers, Rolf Turner __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
RE: [R] draft of posting guide
Having followed the discussion about this posting guide, I'd like to add a few comments. While I think that the *content* is fully appropriate, I am not sure whether the *form* is the appropriate, for the following reason: - The folks posting questions like I've installed R two minutes ago, what do I do next? obviously do not even try to read *any* documentation, and they obviously will also ignore the posting guide. So the posting guide will not fix that problem. - People tending not to dare to ask questions because they are intimidated by some aspects of the list (and after the r-beginner discussion we now know that some feel like that) would be helped by a more positive wording of the same issues in posting guide. The motto should be help to write better questions rather than stop asking poor questions. The content is all there in the draft, it is more about changing individual words. Re-posting it monthly on the list is a good idea. - It would probably also help to add a search form for the mailing list archives to the Documentation - Help Pages section of R-help. I know it is on r-project.org, but you need *less* mouse clicks to subscribe than to get to the search form! Also, it is at the very bottom of the respective web page. - Wasn't there an article on how to get help in a recent issue of R-news? Maybe it could be placed at a prominent placed in the Help Pages as well. Pascal - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
RE: [R] draft of posting guide
I do share Eryk Wolski's and Pascal Nicklaus' concerns that my revision of the posting guide is somewhat unfriendly and negative. My problem here was to keep it to a reasonable length, which meant eliminating sentences whose function was mainly to be positive and friendly. Pascal put it nicely: - People tending not to dare to ask questions because they are intimidated by some aspects of the list (and after the r-beginner discussion we now know that some feel like that) would be helped by a more positive wording of the same issues in posting guide. The motto should be help to write better questions rather than stop asking poor questions. The content is all there in the draft, it is more about changing individual words. Re-posting it monthly on the list is a good idea. I shall reread and see if any of it can be written in a more positive manner without increasing the length. I am however reminded of Aesp's fable You can't please everyone (http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/prose/aesop63.htm). The guide does contain a lot of statements that sound like rules. As others noted, it is just a guide. However, it is my observation that people are occasionally admonished on R-help for violations of these rules. I think this is what is intimidating to some. Part of my intention with writing the guide was to try to make explicit and put down in one accessible place what these rules are. This, I hope, will make it easier for beginners and those reluctant to post to know what they should actually do, so as to better avoid the acute embarrassment that can come from public admonishments. I also tried to merely reflect the tone of the list rather than trying to set the tone. I suspect that a concise and informative guide would be less of an intimidation to posting than seeing public admonishments of others and being in the dark about what is actually expected of posters (and would be more likely to be read than a longer, more chatty and friendly guide.) I also agree that posting questions to R-help should not be the absolute last resort. That's why I split the suggestions on research into two sections: Do your homework before posting and Further resources. It has been my observation that people are sometimes called to task if they ask questions without obviously having done the things in the homework section, but things in the Further resources sections are often mentioned in responses as friendly suggestions without any implication that the poster was negligent for not trying them before posting. I do like the idea of a brief introduction to the guide, to say something like This guide is intended to help you get the most out of the R mailing lists, and to avoid embarrassment. Like many responses posted on the list, it is written in a concise manner. This is not intended to be unfriendly - it is more a consequence of allocating limited time and space to technical issues rather than to social niceties. Both Tom Mulholland and Patrick Burns suggested a checklist section, containing things to check before posting. While I also like this idea, most of the content is already there under homework and common mistakes. I'm not sure that changing the format will enhance the document that much, but I'm perfectly willing to hear opinions. Please let me know if the following is incorrect: For questions about functions in packages distributed with R (see the FAQ http://cran.r-project.org/doc/FAQ/R-FAQ.html#Add-on%20packages%20in%20RAdd-on packages in R), ask questions on R-help. If the question relates to a package that is downloaded from CRAN try contacting the package maintainers first. Comments welcome, however, at this point, perhaps it would be better to send comments to me privately, as most people have probably had enough of this discussion. cheers, Tony Plate PS. There is a slightly corrected and revised version at http://pws.prserv.net/tap/posting-guide-draft3.html. I think it's beyond my skills to make it more friendly without making it longer. If anyone else wants to take a go at it, feel free! In the absence of such attempts, I'm pretty much done with it. Tony Plate [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
Re: [R] draft of posting guide. Sorry.
On Tue, 23-Dec-2003 at 05:31AM +0100, Eryk Wolski wrote: [] | I cooled down now and therefore give me a chance to explain why | that user guide scares me. A few comments: | As I said, the guide had given me the feeling that someone wants to | censor me. You mean you reacted in a way that gave you that feeling. Let's get cause and effect straight. | Especially the first section of the Posting Guide: How to ask good | questions that prompt useful answers does this. The guide starts | with talking mainly about what you should not, or what you must not | do. If I want something to work, I take notice of what the suppliers suggest is a good way to get it to work. I never take such suggestions as being prescriptive. Once I know more about it, I feel free to disregard any of them. Posters can ignore anything in the guide if they so wish. Robust debate gets the brain working, but some feathers might get ruffled in the process. | At last I like to mention one important source of help which are missing | in the posting guide, and which I forgot these days by myself: R CMD -help | and R --help are also very important help sources! If I had remembered it A good suggestion. -- Patrick Connolly HortResearch Mt Albert Auckland New Zealand Ph: +64-9 815 4200 x 7188 ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~ I have the world`s largest collection of seashells. I keep it on all the beaches of the world ... Perhaps you`ve seen it. ---Steven Wright ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~ __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
Re: [R] draft of posting guide
I think the idea of answering simple questions if it hasn't been answered after 4 * runif(1) hours is a brilliant idea (well done Tony -- I'm jealous). However, a slight tweak would be even better. It should be number of years you've used S times runif(1) hours. This encourages more people to start answering questions. While there has been some disagreement about other issues, there seems to be consensus that building a large, strong community of R users is a good thing. Probably the easiest way for people to contribute -- and hence feel a part of the community -- is to respond to R-help questions. (By the way, I'm not at all concerned that the checklist is called common mistakes.) Patrick Burns Burns Statistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 (0)20 8525 0696 http://www.burns-stat.com (home of S Poetry and A Guide for the Unwilling S User) Tony Plate wrote: I do share Eryk Wolski's and Pascal Nicklaus' concerns that my revision of the posting guide is somewhat unfriendly and negative. My problem here was to keep it to a reasonable length, which meant eliminating sentences whose function was mainly to be positive and friendly. Pascal put it nicely: - People tending not to dare to ask questions because they are intimidated by some aspects of the list (and after the r-beginner discussion we now know that some feel like that) would be helped by a more positive wording of the same issues in posting guide. The motto should be help to write better questions rather than stop asking poor questions. The content is all there in the draft, it is more about changing individual words. Re-posting it monthly on the list is a good idea. I shall reread and see if any of it can be written in a more positive manner without increasing the length. I am however reminded of Aesp's fable You can't please everyone (http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/prose/aesop63.htm). The guide does contain a lot of statements that sound like rules. As others noted, it is just a guide. However, it is my observation that people are occasionally admonished on R-help for violations of these rules. I think this is what is intimidating to some. Part of my intention with writing the guide was to try to make explicit and put down in one accessible place what these rules are. This, I hope, will make it easier for beginners and those reluctant to post to know what they should actually do, so as to better avoid the acute embarrassment that can come from public admonishments. I also tried to merely reflect the tone of the list rather than trying to set the tone. I suspect that a concise and informative guide would be less of an intimidation to posting than seeing public admonishments of others and being in the dark about what is actually expected of posters (and would be more likely to be read than a longer, more chatty and friendly guide.) I also agree that posting questions to R-help should not be the absolute last resort. That's why I split the suggestions on research into two sections: Do your homework before posting and Further resources. It has been my observation that people are sometimes called to task if they ask questions without obviously having done the things in the homework section, but things in the Further resources sections are often mentioned in responses as friendly suggestions without any implication that the poster was negligent for not trying them before posting. I do like the idea of a brief introduction to the guide, to say something like This guide is intended to help you get the most out of the R mailing lists, and to avoid embarrassment. Like many responses posted on the list, it is written in a concise manner. This is not intended to be unfriendly - it is more a consequence of allocating limited time and space to technical issues rather than to social niceties. Both Tom Mulholland and Patrick Burns suggested a checklist section, containing things to check before posting. While I also like this idea, most of the content is already there under homework and common mistakes. I'm not sure that changing the format will enhance the document that much, but I'm perfectly willing to hear opinions. Please let me know if the following is incorrect: For questions about functions in packages distributed with R (see the FAQ http://cran.r-project.org/doc/FAQ/R-FAQ.html#Add-on%20packages%20in%20RAdd-on packages in R), ask questions on R-help. If the question relates to a package that is downloaded from CRAN try contacting the package maintainers first. Comments welcome, however, at this point, perhaps it would be better to send comments to me privately, as most people have probably had enough of this discussion. cheers, Tony Plate PS. There is a slightly corrected and revised version at http://pws.prserv.net/tap/posting-guide-draft3.html. I think it's beyond my skills to make it more friendly without making it longer. If anyone else wants to take a go at it, feel free! In
Re: [R] draft of posting guide
This is in response to Gabor Grothendieck's commentary on Tony Plate's draft guidelines for question-askers, which was posted a couple of days ago. I disagree, from mildly to vehemently with just about everything in Grothendieck's posting. E.g. the ``tone'' of the draft should not be ``friendlier''. The purpose of the guidelines is to encourage the asking of well-thought out questions and discourage the asking of stupid ones. This politically correct ``don't damage their self esteem attitude'' has no place in the r-help list. A propos of bugs, for the uneducated beginner to assert that there is a ``bug'' in software designed by some of the best and most knowledgeable minds in the discipline, when the software works as documented, is the height of presumptuous arrogance. The guide is and should be a guide for the question-askers. The responders who are voluntarily giving of their time and (often deep) experise need not be constrained. The R package and this help list are free services provided voluntarily by some great people. If someone asks a stupid question and dislikes being told so in so many words, well, that person is free to take his or her business elsewhere. The one point I ***agree*** with is that questions about statistical methodology should not be discouraged in any way, even if they are not directly R-related. There is always some sort of relationship, such questions are interesting, and there is almost always some insight to be gained by thinking about them in an R context. cheers, Rolf Turner __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
Re: [R] draft of posting guide
I don't study carefully every piece of available documentation for everything (anything?) I do. A major challenge is how to provide a guide that will get used and will in the process improve the quality of questions and answers. Best Wishes, spencer graves Rolf Turner wrote: This is in response to Gabor Grothendieck's commentary on Tony Plate's draft guidelines for question-askers, which was posted a couple of days ago. I disagree, from mildly to vehemently with just about everything in Grothendieck's posting. E.g. the ``tone'' of the draft should not be ``friendlier''. The purpose of the guidelines is to encourage the asking of well-thought out questions and discourage the asking of stupid ones. This politically correct ``don't damage their self esteem attitude'' has no place in the r-help list. A propos of bugs, for the uneducated beginner to assert that there is a ``bug'' in software designed by some of the best and most knowledgeable minds in the discipline, when the software works as documented, is the height of presumptuous arrogance. The guide is and should be a guide for the question-askers. The responders who are voluntarily giving of their time and (often deep) experise need not be constrained. The R package and this help list are free services provided voluntarily by some great people. If someone asks a stupid question and dislikes being told so in so many words, well, that person is free to take his or her business elsewhere. The one point I ***agree*** with is that questions about statistical methodology should not be discouraged in any way, even if they are not directly R-related. There is always some sort of relationship, such questions are interesting, and there is almost always some insight to be gained by thinking about them in an R context. cheers, Rolf Turner __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
Re: [R] draft of posting guide
How about some sort of happy medium? e.g., in the posting guide include something like 'The people who wrote R, and the people who answers questions on R-help, are volunteers. R software is the product of thousands of hours of time by many highly trained and highly intelligent people. Please respect their time by following the guidelines below; note that failure to follow these guidelines may result in your question being ignored, or in responses that are less detailed than you would like. At the same time (and I don't think this necessarily needs to be posted in any guide), I think that there's no call for rudeness or snippiness on the part of people who answer questions. Very few of the people who post to this list are stupid; many people new to R find the learning curve rather steep. While this doesn't excuse rudeness or arrogance on the part of the people who ASK questions, it also doesn't excuse rudeness or arrogance on the part of those who answer them. Who knows? SOME of the people who ask an ignorant question today may ask an intelligent one tomorrow. SOME of these questions MAY help others on the list, or even (dare I say it?) help the people who develop the code. It MIGHT even happen that someone who asks such a question today helps write something really useful at some point in the future. But none of this will happen if the person stops using R. Peter Peter L. Flom, PhD Assistant Director, Statistics and Data Analysis Core Center for Drug Use and HIV Research National Development and Research Institutes 71 W. 23rd St www.peterflom.com New York, NY 10010 (212) 845-4485 (voice) (917) 438-0894 (fax) __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
Re: [R] draft of posting guide
Hi! The guide are in my opinion much to long. If someone posts a question to the mailing list its because he likes to get a answer (fast?). The Introduction proposed by Peter Flom and the Homework before posting section will do it in my opinion. The part: Homework before posting a question. is enough. It may be better to call it: How to find answers to urgent questions All this stuff about how to behave, and ask questions is superfluous in my opinion. If you don't understand the question don't answer. If you don't have time to answer don't do it. If you don't understand the answers look for it somewhere else. If someone is rude on the mailing list I can ignore him. If I do not like answers from someone I simply don't open the mails (Or put him into the spam filter if you are paranoic). If I don't like questions from someone I do the same. Its not public traffic, the underground, or the street, where you can't avoid contact with the smoke if someone are smoking ore where you have to leave the train if someone stinks or where you have to fight if someone is attacking someone else. I am very happy and I like the R-help list how it is. So, Merry Christmas to all of you! Eryk *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 12/22/2003 at 10:18 AM Spencer Graves wrote: I don't study carefully every piece of available documentation for everything (anything?) I do. A major challenge is how to provide a guide that will get used and will in the process improve the quality of questions and answers. Best Wishes, spencer graves Rolf Turner wrote: This is in response to Gabor Grothendieck's commentary on Tony Plate's draft guidelines for question-askers, which was posted a couple of days ago. I disagree, from mildly to vehemently with just about everything in Grothendieck's posting. E.g. the ``tone'' of the draft should not be ``friendlier''. The purpose of the guidelines is to encourage the asking of well-thought out questions and discourage the asking of stupid ones. This politically correct ``don't damage their self esteem attitude'' has no place in the r-help list. A propos of bugs, for the uneducated beginner to assert that there is a ``bug'' in software designed by some of the best and most knowledgeable minds in the discipline, when the software works as documented, is the height of presumptuous arrogance. The guide is and should be a guide for the question-askers. The responders who are voluntarily giving of their time and (often deep) experise need not be constrained. The R package and this help list are free services provided voluntarily by some great people. If someone asks a stupid question and dislikes being told so in so many words, well, that person is free to take his or her business elsewhere. The one point I ***agree*** with is that questions about statistical methodology should not be discouraged in any way, even if they are not directly R-related. There is always some sort of relationship, such questions are interesting, and there is almost always some insight to be gained by thinking about them in an R context. cheers, Rolf Turner __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help Dipl. bio-chem. Eryk Witold Wolski@MPI-MG Dep. Vertebrate Genomics Ihnestrasse 73 14195 Berlin 'v' tel: 0049-30-84131285 / \ mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]---W-Whttp://www.molgen.mpg.de/~wolski __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
Re: [R] draft of posting guide
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:32:15 +0100 Wolski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! The guide are in my opinion much to long. If someone posts a question to the mailing list its because he likes to get a answer (fast?). The Introduction proposed by Peter Flom and the Homework before posting section will do it in my opinion. The part: Homework before posting a question. is enough. It may be better to call it: How to find answers to urgent questions All this stuff about how to behave, and ask questions is superfluous in my opinion. If you don't understand the question don't answer. If you don't have time to answer don't do it. If you don't understand the answers look for it somewhere else. If someone is rude on the mailing list I can ignore him. If I do not like answers from someone I simply don't open the mails (Or put him into the spam filter if you are paranoic). If I don't like questions from someone I do the same. Its not public traffic, the underground, or the street, where you can't avoid contact with the smoke if someone are smoking ore where you have to leave the train if someone stinks or where you have to fight if someone is attacking someone else. I am very happy and I like the R-help list how it is. So, Merry Christmas to all of you! Eryk These sentiments do not take into account the time required to determine that I shouldn't answer someone's e-mail, nor does it consider that with some prompting, new users can ask questions better. Frank --- Frank E Harrell Jr Professor and Chair School of Medicine Department of Biostatistics Vanderbilt University __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
RE: [R] draft of posting guide
I think there will always be disagreement when commenting about the
appropriateness of social behaviour. So I think we will do well to
understand the purpose of any proposed posting guide. It is not clear to
me where the list is going with regards to this topic. If the aim is to
produce a comprehensive posting guide to sit with other R documents, I
wish the list well and will check on progress some time in the future. I
can't see some points being reconciled quickly.
If we are talking about something else, I have previously suggested a
short monthly reminder, then it may be possible to make some progress.
Frank Harrell noted that with some prompting, new users can ask
questions better. If we focus on the mechanics of question asking
rather than on the social aspects we may find it easier to produce
something. I guess I'm asking the question What are the prompts?
If I were to make a checklist it would be
Before asking the question
Have you read the FAQs?
If you use windows, have you read the Windows FAQ?
Have you searched the R-help archives?
Have you read the online help for relevant functions?
Have you checked to see if the answer is in one of the reference
manuals, supplementary documents or Newsletters?
Do you have the latest version of R?
Is this an R question?
Once you need to ask the question
Do you need to include a workable example so people understand your
problem?
Do you need to include details about your operating system?
Do you need to include which version of R are you using?
This obviously would need something else as some of the questions beg
questions themselves. It is however moving towards what I had in my mind
when I first suggested the monthly reminder.
Tom
_
Tom Mulholland
Senior Policy Officer
WA Country Health Service
Tel: (08) 9222 4062
The contents of this e-mail transmission are confidential an...{{dropped}}
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Re: [R] draft of posting guide. Sorry.
Hi! Sorry. Please take my last mail to the account that it was monday and I had two hard birthday party's during the weekend. Probably all this caused the problem to express that the style of the mailing list guide shocked me. I asked this morning such a stupid(if you know the answer) question. But to me, it was a very important question and to get the answer was it too. I felt scared. I hope that this are not the intention of that guide. I cooled down now and therefore give me a chance to explain why that user guide scares me. As I said, the guide had given me the feeling that someone wants to censor me. Especially the first section of the Posting Guide: How to ask good questions that prompt useful answers does this. The guide starts with talking mainly about what you should not, or what you must not do. Some examples come quite late and after the you must not cross fences, you must not... introduction, I simply stopped to read. To much regulation kills spontaneity. Lack of spontaneity kills creativity, It cant be!, is what I thought. Now I had read the reminder of the Posting guide. What I am missing are a short introduction answering such questions: What are the intention of this guide? What are the problems it is going to address? I think that some hints to people that answer would not harm! The cases that someone does not get an answer are seldom. Often there are tens of answers to question. I have the impression that there are a COMPETITION for the best solution. I think that most of the beginners can live with a working solution, even if it is not the best one. If I ask a question than its because I want to get my work done and not to test the mailing list participants.This may make the workload smaller and may encourage less experienced R user to try to give answers. Not to take a questions as an EXAMINATION situation can make it also less aching or painfull if the question are not as precise as wished. By changing this attitude of examiner,student, many of the points in this guide will be superfluous! Why the guide does NOT mention in one word that posting questions on the mailing list has also some DISADVANTAGES? e.g. Answers written in haste, bad temper (see my answer, sorry again), or answers two days later. (And if you know the right place too look you will get the answer immediately.) I even do not think the mailing list should be the last place where you are allowed to look for help. Simple trying to formulate the question to post it on the list can be helpfull. Why to make it so difficult to someone to try it? I personally find it very good if the same thing is asked ten different times in 3 different ways. This increases the probability that I will find a answer to my problem searching the mailing list. Its also true that many questions can be answered with a short ?command. But this does not make it superfluous. At last I like to mention one important source of help which are missing in the posting guide, and which I forgot these days by myself: R CMD -help and R --help are also very important help sources! If I had remembered it yesterday morning I would not have to ask about. But was it really so bad that I had? I hope that this email will be helpfull. Merry Christmass. Sincerely. Eryk __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
Re: [R] draft of posting guide. Sorry.
A few comments...
Eryk Wolski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As I said, the guide had given me the feeling that someone wants to censor
me. Especially the first section of the Posting Guide: How to ask good
questions that prompt useful answers does this. The guide starts with
talking mainly about what you should not, or what you must not do. Some
examples come quite late and after the you must not cross fences, you
must not... introduction, I simply stopped to read. To much regulation
kills spontaneity. Lack of spontaneity kills creativity, It cant be!, is
what I thought. Now I had read the reminder of the Posting guide.
There is no real regulation with the guide. It's a guide, and you are
free to use it (hopefully to your advantage) or ignore it (hopefully,
not to your disadvantage). But you never know. It's sort of like
Russian Roulette. I can guide you against it, but you still might
play...
What I am missing are a short introduction answering such questions: What
are the intention of this guide? What are the problems it is going to
address?
Ideally, it provides a way to think through solutions to problems that
are obvious, leaving the mailing list to those which are
interesting.
All words in quotes are contextually defined, of course.
I think that some hints to people that answer would not harm!
The cases that someone does not get an answer are seldom. Often there are
tens of answers to question. I have the impression that there are a
COMPETITION for the best solution. I think that most of the beginners can
live with a working solution, even if it is not the best one. If I ask a
question than its because I want to get my work done and not to test the
mailing list participants.This may make the workload smaller and may
encourage less experienced R user to try to give answers.
Not to take a questions as an EXAMINATION situation can make it also less
aching or painfull if the question are not as precise as wished. By
changing this attitude of examiner,student, many of the points
in this guide will be superfluous!
Some solutions are good, others are bad. Solutions which exist in the
documentation are generally good -- it is rare (in my experience,
probably 8 years of using R) that they are wrong.
Why the guide does NOT mention in one word that posting questions on the
mailing list has also some DISADVANTAGES? e.g. Answers written in haste,
bad temper (see my answer, sorry again), or answers two days later. (And
if you know the right place too look you will get the answer
immediately.)
Answers might not even be correct. That is the argument against
moving from this list to another, unless the people that really know
the answer move as well.
I even do not think the mailing list should be the last place where you
are allowed to look for help. Simple trying to formulate the question to
post it on the list can be helpfull. Why to make it so difficult to
someone to try it?
You can. However, spending 5-10 minutes with the documentation
sources will sometimes (not always) solve the problem. Sometimes.
I personally find it very good if the same thing is asked ten different
times in 3 different ways. This increases the probability that I will find
a answer to my problem searching the mailing list.
Its also true that many questions can be answered with a short ?command.
But this does not make it superfluous.
It does, actually. help.search() is your friend. Read Eric's guide
to asking questions again. Initial stupid questions make it hard to
fix your reputation. People have overcome reputations for initial
stupidity, but it is sometimes much easier just to not be stupid in
the first place. Most of the people that understand R can be
classified as hackers, using Eric's jargon. Note that I would
never claim to be one of them.
I realize that figuring out whether the question is stupid can be
tough for a beginner. However, the amount (and quality) of
(freely-available, at least for the cost of download, which might not
be free) documentation for R is simply incredible. The closest that
I've seen, for freely available languages, is Python, for actual
quality of documentation. And with R, most of the functions have
examples; plus, actual source code is usually easier to come by.
Sure, not everyone is a code hound. But it's a great skill to pick
up, since the answers are all there.
best,
-tony
--
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Re: Re: [R] draft of posting guide. Sorry.
A.J. Rossini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, the amount (and quality) of (freely-available, at least for the cost of download, which might not be free) documentation for R is simply incredible. The closest that I've seen, for freely available languages, is Python, for actual quality of documentation. The Python documentation is truly excellent, but I agree, the R documentation is even better. Sometimes the R help is a bit terse, but that simply means that one has to think a bit to work out what is meant, but I have never found it to be insufficient. Tim C __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
Re: [R] draft of posting guide
Tony Plate [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: h3Common posting mistakes/h3 Doing any of the following may result in you getting a response that you may find rude or insulting. (However, such a response may be justified in the eyes of some because you have wasted people's time or unjustly insulted people's work.) * Not doing your homework before posting a question. * Asking R-help to do your classroom homework for you (remember that many of the subscribers of R-help are university professors and can recognize homework questions with great speed and accuracy) * Claiming that something is a bug when in fact the software is working as intended and documented, just not in the way you first expected. * Claiming that some commonly used function is not behaving in what you think is a sensible manner (it's far more productive and polite to just ask why it behaves the way it does if you think it is odd -- but only after reading all the relevant documentation!) * Threatening not to use the software if you cannot get your question answered. Even when intended as a statement of fact, it tends to create negative attitudes. -- O__ Peter Dalgaard Blegdamsvej 3 c/ /'_ --- Dept. of Biostatistics 2200 Cph. N (*) \(*) -- University of Copenhagen Denmark Ph: (+45) 35327918 ~~ - ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) FAX: (+45) 35327907 __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://www.stat.math.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
RE: [R] draft of posting guide
Thanks for your effort. Here are some comments. 1. The guidelines seem only to cover people _asking_ questions. What about those answering? 2. I think bug needs to be taken in the broader sense of a problem. Such problems are not limited to discrepancies between documentation and implementation. The real serious problems are design problems and may not represent such deviations at all. If the behavior is unexpected it may very well be a problem even if its not a bug in the narrow sense. 3. Rude answers are never warranted. 4. Its too long and there are too many rules. 5. The tone should be friendlier -- more helpful and inviting. Words like lazy should be eliminated. Although R is not a commercial enterprise and its users are not customers in the usual sense, its users should still be treated with respect and encouraged rather than admonished. A customer oriented attitude will be appreciated and encourage more participation. The purpose of this should not be so much to tell posters what they can do and not do but to help them elicit useful responses and to help responders provide userful answers. 6. Points should be numbered so they can be referred to. Each one should have an address so that one can refer to them individually like this: http://www.r-project.org/...whatever.../etiquette.html#3.1 7. I personally find the statistics questions interesting and would not like to see guidelines about not posting statistical problems. 8. Where documents are referred to, provide a URL. Where R is being referred to point that out. For example, help.search is an R command. This may be obvious to some but it might not be obvious to someone just coming to R. 9. It might be worthwhile to point out that the following google search works: whatever site:r-project.org The real problem with the lists is not the posters. The real problems are: - rude answers - insufficient discussion about the direction and design and, in general, higher level issues. If you compare this to ruby, python, perl and lua there are all sorts of interesting proposals and discussions on this on their lists with little counterpart on R's. Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:55:53 -0700 From: Tony Plate [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [R] draft of posting guide Here is a first draft of a guide for posters to r-help and r-devel. Suggestions on how to improve any aspect of it are most welcome. Suggestions on ways to make it more concise are especially welcome. Comments on which parts you like or don't like are welcome. Rather than clutter up R-help with lots of small corrections etc, please send them to me, and I will try to incorporate and summarize appropriately. I've left out most HTML formatting (except for headings) to make it readable -- I'll insert that later (to conform with the style on the other pages at r-project.org.) I've placed ??? in places where feedback is specifically needed. h2Posting Guide: How to ask good questions that prompt useful answers/h2 * Remember that R is free software, constructed and maintained by volunteers. They have various reasons for contributing to R, but often have limited time. Remember that no one owes you anything, and if you rude or disrespectful in your questions, you are likely to either be ignored or have the sentiment returned to you. * The R mailing lists are primarily intended for questions and discussion about the R software. However, sometimes questions about statistical methodology are posted. [??? are these discouraged/tolerated/... ???] People are far less likely to respond to these types of questions than to questions about the R software. Depending on how much the post shows thought and background research, responses may merely (and sometimes brusquely) suggest that you should be seeking statistical consulting advice elsewhere. Sometimes, if the question is well-asked AND of interest to someone on the list, you may get an informative, up-to-date answer. * Don't expect R-help to teach you basic statistics. That's what statistics textbooks and statistics classes are for. * If you have a question about R that you want answered, don't be lazy. Do your homework first. If it is clear that you have done your homework, your are far more likely to get an informative response. The type of homework that needs to be done depends on the type of question -- details are in the following paragraphs. * Make it easy for people to answer your question: be clear and concise, remove unnecessary details, and, if they might be useful, provide brief examples. * A much more detailed (and highly recommended) essay on how to ask questions on mailing lists about software is Eric Raymond's How To Ask Questions The Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. (Note that catb.org has no association with the R project and will not respond to questions concerning R
[R] draft of posting guide
Here is a first draft of a guide for posters to r-help and r-devel. Suggestions on how to improve any aspect of it are most welcome. Suggestions on ways to make it more concise are especially welcome. Comments on which parts you like or don't like are welcome. Rather than clutter up R-help with lots of small corrections etc, please send them to me, and I will try to incorporate and summarize appropriately. I've left out most HTML formatting (except for headings) to make it readable -- I'll insert that later (to conform with the style on the other pages at r-project.org.) I've placed ??? in places where feedback is specifically needed. h2Posting Guide: How to ask good questions that prompt useful answers/h2 * Remember that R is free software, constructed and maintained by volunteers. They have various reasons for contributing to R, but often have limited time. Remember that no one owes you anything, and if you rude or disrespectful in your questions, you are likely to either be ignored or have the sentiment returned to you. * The R mailing lists are primarily intended for questions and discussion about the R software. However, sometimes questions about statistical methodology are posted. [??? are these discouraged/tolerated/... ???] People are far less likely to respond to these types of questions than to questions about the R software. Depending on how much the post shows thought and background research, responses may merely (and sometimes brusquely) suggest that you should be seeking statistical consulting advice elsewhere. Sometimes, if the question is well-asked AND of interest to someone on the list, you may get an informative, up-to-date answer. * Don't expect R-help to teach you basic statistics. That's what statistics textbooks and statistics classes are for. * If you have a question about R that you want answered, don't be lazy. Do your homework first. If it is clear that you have done your homework, your are far more likely to get an informative response. The type of homework that needs to be done depends on the type of question -- details are in the following paragraphs. * Make it easy for people to answer your question: be clear and concise, remove unnecessary details, and, if they might be useful, provide brief examples. * A much more detailed (and highly recommended) essay on how to ask questions on mailing lists about software is Eric Raymond's How To Ask Questions The Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. (Note that catb.org has no association with the R project and will not respond to questions concerning R.) h3Homework before posting a question/h3 Before posting any question, try to do at least the following background research: * help.search(keyword) at least 3 times, each time with a keyword from your problem description (including any synonyms you can think of) * read the online help for relevant functions (usually can be accessed by typing ?functionname, e.g., ?prod at the prompt.) * search the R-faq (and the R-windows-faq if it might be relevant) * search R-help archives (see under the heading Archives and Search Facilities above) h3Questions about specific functions/h3 * If you have a question about a particular function, make sure you have thoroughly read the documentation for that function (often accessible via help(functionname), e.g., help(summary)). If you don't understand some aspect of the documentation, it's OK to post a question about that, but do demonstrate that you have at least tried to read it (e.g., by including in your post the specific passage from the documentation, and stating why you don't understand it.) In some cases, the documentation for a function may be in a book, e.g., as with the MASS package. If this is the case, make sure you consult the appropriate book before posting. This may require a visit to the bookstore or library, and if you are posting from a rich country or commercial organization it will be assumed you have access to such resources. h3Questions about specific problems/h3 * If you have a question about what functions can be used to approach a particular problem, but you are unable to find anything with a basic search, then in your posting you should state this, and the keywords you used, as well as giving a clear description of your problem. It's best to keep this problem description as high level as possible. For example if you want to cluster some data so that you can make a postscript plot of hierarchical clusters, then by stating this you are more likely to get useful answers than by asking some lower-level question like how to I specify a .ps suffix to a filename argument for the diana() function? (this question intentionally nonsense). * If you have a question about how to manipulate data, or a question about how to use a function on some specific data,
