[RBW] Re: What Makes the Rivendell
William, Excellent post! And perfectly captures what many were trying to say. Even myself, although went about it all wrong. It is the rider. And as a rider of Rivendell, I fail miserably. Probably because at my heart, am too much of a reverse snob. Wherein beautiful and practical is nice. But funky, strange and not normal is much more interesting. (Besides being too heavy and slow to actually get the best performance out of a Rivendell.) Sorta like guitars. An older Martin guitar is a stunning thing of beauty. Both for the eye and ear. Yet personal interest in guitar has lead down a road to oddball names and makers left behind in the wastebins of history. Because the sound and visual aspects are much more in tune with what I am trying to capture. Mice. Appears am wandering off topic again. Apologize for that. Eric Platt St. Paul, MN On Jan 11, 9:04 pm, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: There's a really fine line here. Which aspects are worth dwelling upon and obsessing over and which aspects are to be discarded, freeing your mind and your soul to just be happy and enjoy yourself? I'm pretty certain Grant can't tell you. There are details of his frame designs that he never talks about, never posts about, and that you and I would never notice, but he obsesses over. There are other design details that customers dwell and obsess over, to which Grant correctly says 'not a big deal, just enjoy yourself' to the handwringers. Some of us use to be weight weenies in a past life and now we're bag- matchers. Some of us brag about how we stop and smell the roses, but are infuriated that we can't find the right shade of celery green cloth tape, or can't post on the forum without pointing out that we are rocking 584mm rims. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011
As always, Jim, we're appreciative of all the work it takes to administer a list like this. I know, because we tried. You make it seem effortless, but I know from personal experience that it is not. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Thank you, again, John everyone at RBW HQ Walnut Creek 96, Calif. On Jan 10, 2:33 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: State of the Rivendell Bicycle Works Owner's Bunch Mailing List January 2011 - #11 We're solidly in the center of winter - although those of you who are enjoying high summer in the southern hemisphere will just have to imagine. For the 250 or so who have come onboard the group in the last half a year, this please accept a slightly belated Welcome! Hopefully, you've enjoyed the discussions, chimed in a bit on your own, and continued to make this group vital and vibrant. It has been very gratifying to watch this list mature. As I've mentioned to some long-time members privately, I'm both excited and concerned about the growth of this group. I've tried to take a little more of a hands-off approach in terms of commenting as an admin, and had planned on no more than quarterly State Of The List Reports. For the newer members, I use this message as a reminder of some of the basic tenets of the list, to highlight changes and trends on the list and various websites, and to speak generally about the RBW group. In the beginning, since this group had picked up the pieces from another list, it seemed appropriate to actively remind folks about the tenor and tenets of the group. As we've grown, the most important aspect of this group - the tone between us - has remained extremely civil. The few muckrakers who cropped up seem to have moved on and this group has maintained its respect for one another. I think we all understand the difficulty of transmitting humor or mood over a text-based medium, and want to say again how nice it is to be among people who think about what they post and aren't afraid to reread before hitting the send button. An interesting statistic is that even though we've added a number of new members, the traffic has actually subsided from the peaks of early last year. I've been trying to keep the phrase Say more. Post less. firmly in mind before committing a post to the group. Those of you who are also members of the iBob list probably know what I'm getting at here. For the newer members, it might be helpful for me to share one of the ways I think about this list - as a public house where ideas are easily shared between those who have arrived, everyone is present because they want to be, and passing through the doors means that baggage is left outside. Of course, disruptions will periodically occur, which is kind of where I have to attempt a polite correction now and again. At one point in list history, I commented publically about a general trend of topics to drift and generalize. It was interesting how many people thought they'd been the cause of my post, and in more than a few cases, I had to go back and re-read their contributions to the discussion, as most of them weren't really the ones which caused my comment. I think it speaks highly for everyone that they had taken some of the assumption of cause, even if it wasn't the case. Let me use this space to thank you both for your contributions and your willingness to temper your posts. At the current levels, if everyone just makes one post a month, that means 1590+ posts, or somewhere around 53 per day in an average month. Just by staying on topic, we have the potential to generate a fair amount of traffic. One of the hallmarks of this list has been a very high signal to noise ratio. It's solid information from the people using and thinking about the items. That means that a lot of info can be found in the archives, and it seems that the google archive search issues have fixed themselves, so that should be a decent resource. So, if a member asks something that was covered in a previous, pertinent thread, and you recall having participated in that thread, it may be easier for you to track down and share the thread link. Or not. I know I've repeated myself more than a few times over the years. It's important to remember that if you are tagging your post OT or Off Topic, then it doesn't belong on this list. Tone is always a concern in my mind. One of the things that happens almost every year on other lists is a cantankerousness that escalates into real nastiness. It's typically mid-to-late February or early March - a definite stir-crazyness manifesting. It's too easy to be brusque, as well as take umbrage during that time of year. My view is simple: life is too short. If you can't stay positive or at least polite, it's time to put down the keyboard and take a break. We all get enough guff in our everyday existence that we don't need
[RBW] Re: Sighting: Bleriot at the Beverage pub in West Seattle Sunday
Last time I was in West Seattle, I saw a Riv here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/awilliams53/5318515086/ Andy On Jan 11, 1:37 am, Benedikt neutralbuoya...@comcast.net wrote: Sorry I don't know the answers to your questions but I do find it interesting how many Riv's I see and hear about here in West Seattle. On Jan 10, 10:04 am, RoadieRyan ryansub...@gmail.com wrote: Riding with my Daughter on Sunday I happened to see a beautiful Bleriot at Beverage, how's that for alliterative, and in particular it had a very handsome set of rear panniers. Does that belong to a list member? if so what kind of Panniers? the new ones from Riv? Ryan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
RE: [RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011
Jim: What John (and others) said -- it's one of the small but important pleasures of my day to read all of the posts and keep up with folks I feel like I've gotten to know through this list. And they are people worth getting to know! Thanks again. Tom -Original Message- From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Bennett Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:04 AM To: RBW Owners Bunch Subject: [RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011 As always, Jim, we're appreciative of all the work it takes to administer a list like this. I know, because we tried. You make it seem effortless, but I know from personal experience that it is not. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Thank you, again, John everyone at RBW HQ Walnut Creek 96, Calif. On Jan 10, 2:33 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: State of the Rivendell Bicycle Works Owner's Bunch Mailing List January 2011 - #11 We're solidly in the center of winter - although those of you who are enjoying high summer in the southern hemisphere will just have to imagine. For the 250 or so who have come onboard the group in the last half a year, this please accept a slightly belated Welcome! Hopefully, you've enjoyed the discussions, chimed in a bit on your own, and continued to make this group vital and vibrant. It has been very gratifying to watch this list mature. As I've mentioned to some long-time members privately, I'm both excited and concerned about the growth of this group. I've tried to take a little more of a hands-off approach in terms of commenting as an admin, and had planned on no more than quarterly State Of The List Reports. For the newer members, I use this message as a reminder of some of the basic tenets of the list, to highlight changes and trends on the list and various websites, and to speak generally about the RBW group. In the beginning, since this group had picked up the pieces from another list, it seemed appropriate to actively remind folks about the tenor and tenets of the group. As we've grown, the most important aspect of this group - the tone between us - has remained extremely civil. The few muckrakers who cropped up seem to have moved on and this group has maintained its respect for one another. I think we all understand the difficulty of transmitting humor or mood over a text-based medium, and want to say again how nice it is to be among people who think about what they post and aren't afraid to reread before hitting the send button. An interesting statistic is that even though we've added a number of new members, the traffic has actually subsided from the peaks of early last year. I've been trying to keep the phrase Say more. Post less. firmly in mind before committing a post to the group. Those of you who are also members of the iBob list probably know what I'm getting at here. For the newer members, it might be helpful for me to share one of the ways I think about this list - as a public house where ideas are easily shared between those who have arrived, everyone is present because they want to be, and passing through the doors means that baggage is left outside. Of course, disruptions will periodically occur, which is kind of where I have to attempt a polite correction now and again. At one point in list history, I commented publically about a general trend of topics to drift and generalize. It was interesting how many people thought they'd been the cause of my post, and in more than a few cases, I had to go back and re-read their contributions to the discussion, as most of them weren't really the ones which caused my comment. I think it speaks highly for everyone that they had taken some of the assumption of cause, even if it wasn't the case. Let me use this space to thank you both for your contributions and your willingness to temper your posts. At the current levels, if everyone just makes one post a month, that means 1590+ posts, or somewhere around 53 per day in an average month. Just by staying on topic, we have the potential to generate a fair amount of traffic. One of the hallmarks of this list has been a very high signal to noise ratio. It's solid information from the people using and thinking about the items. That means that a lot of info can be found in the archives, and it seems that the google archive search issues have fixed themselves, so that should be a decent resource. So, if a member asks something that was covered in a previous, pertinent thread, and you recall having participated in that thread, it may be easier for you to track down and share the thread link. Or not. I know I've repeated myself more than a few times over the years. It's important to remember that if you are tagging your post OT or Off Topic, then it doesn't
Re: [RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011
Agreed! Great list! I read it often. I also use it a lot to stay supplied. I have this list to thank for the purchase from list members of two bicycles, several drawers full of yet-to-be-used/applied parts and accessories, and a rack of tires. I have no doubt that if my wife could figure out a way to apply parental controls to this forum, I'd be entirely restricted by now. From: Allingham II, Thomas J thomas.alling...@skadden.com To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 6:17:05 AM Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011 Jim: What John (and others) said -- it's one of the small but important pleasures of my day to read all of the posts and keep up with folks I feel like I've gotten to know through this list. And they are people worth getting to know! Thanks again. Tom -Original Message- From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Bennett Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:04 AM To: RBW Owners Bunch Subject: [RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011 As always, Jim, we're appreciative of all the work it takes to administer a list like this. I know, because we tried. You make it seem effortless, but I know from personal experience that it is not. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Thank you, again, John everyone at RBW HQ Walnut Creek 96, Calif. On Jan 10, 2:33 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: State of the Rivendell Bicycle Works Owner's Bunch Mailing List January 2011 - #11 We're solidly in the center of winter - although those of you who are enjoying high summer in the southern hemisphere will just have to imagine. For the 250 or so who have come onboard the group in the last half a year, this please accept a slightly belated Welcome! Hopefully, you've enjoyed the discussions, chimed in a bit on your own, and continued to make this group vital and vibrant. It has been very gratifying to watch this list mature. As I've mentioned to some long-time members privately, I'm both excited and concerned about the growth of this group. I've tried to take a little more of a hands-off approach in terms of commenting as an admin, and had planned on no more than quarterly State Of The List Reports. For the newer members, I use this message as a reminder of some of the basic tenets of the list, to highlight changes and trends on the list and various websites, and to speak generally about the RBW group. In the beginning, since this group had picked up the pieces from another list, it seemed appropriate to actively remind folks about the tenor and tenets of the group. As we've grown, the most important aspect of this group - the tone between us - has remained extremely civil. The few muckrakers who cropped up seem to have moved on and this group has maintained its respect for one another. I think we all understand the difficulty of transmitting humor or mood over a text-based medium, and want to say again how nice it is to be among people who think about what they post and aren't afraid to reread before hitting the send button. An interesting statistic is that even though we've added a number of new members, the traffic has actually subsided from the peaks of early last year. I've been trying to keep the phrase Say more. Post less. firmly in mind before committing a post to the group. Those of you who are also members of the iBob list probably know what I'm getting at here. For the newer members, it might be helpful for me to share one of the ways I think about this list - as a public house where ideas are easily shared between those who have arrived, everyone is present because they want to be, and passing through the doors means that baggage is left outside. Of course, disruptions will periodically occur, which is kind of where I have to attempt a polite correction now and again. At one point in list history, I commented publically about a general trend of topics to drift and generalize. It was interesting how many people thought they'd been the cause of my post, and in more than a few cases, I had to go back and re-read their contributions to the discussion, as most of them weren't really the ones which caused my comment. I think it speaks highly for everyone that they had taken some of the assumption of cause, even if it wasn't the case. Let me use this space to thank you both for your contributions and your willingness to temper your posts. At the current levels, if everyone just makes one post a month, that means 1590+ posts, or somewhere around 53 per day in an average month. Just by staying on topic, we have the potential to generate a fair amount of traffic. One of the hallmarks of this list has been a very
[RBW] Re: wheelsets for sale
Jim - got any interesting rims you're trying to get rid of? We have to keep ourselves entertained when snowed in as well -Dan On Jan 6, 1:59 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: I have a few nice wheelsets lying around, and I'm also building some new ones to use up some rim and hub inventory and to pass the time until the snow melts. Here's what I have: 700C/622: Velocity Aerohead rims with 36h Shimano T660 (touring version of LX) rear and 32h Alfine front generator hub. The rims are silver and the hubs are polished/shiny silver. The rear rim is offset for reduced dish and increased strength. Spokes are Wheelsmith butted, also silver, laced 3x. I envision this as a great lightweight wheelset for a Hillborne or a Hilsen for road use, credit card touring, and anything short of really heavy-duty applications. And with the generator hub, it would be a great brevet wheelset. $400 shipped in CONUS. 650B/584: Velocity Dyad rims with 32h Shimano T660 (touring version of LX) rear and 32h Alfine front generator hub. The rims are silver and the hubs are polished/shiny silver. Spokes are Wheelsmith 14g, also silver, laced 3x. I envision this as a great all-round wheelset for a 650B Hillborne, Bleriot, Betty Foy, or a Hilsen/Saluki for just about every purpose. And with the generator hub, it would be a great brevet wheelset. $370 shipped in CONUS. 26/559: Mavic EX721 rims with 36h Shimano XT 760-series front and rear. All silver. I did not build these, but they are NOS and appear to be a sound and sturdy (also pretty) wheelset for commuting, touring, and offroad use. $280 shipped in CONUS. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Informal Tall Riders Group
Hey all Here are some pics of a 60cm loaded touring Bombadil (mine). It is a very good tall and heavy guy's touring bike. http://www.flickr.com/photos/45341...@n04/page2/ DC - 94pbh/205 pounds. On Jan 11, 12:04 pm, LouisvillePatrick flightofthebomba...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Bobby, Don't have the time at the moment to upload a picture. Will later tonight. But here's how it worked out: Tires: -Marathons. 50lb pressure. Take no chances. 46mm. Racks: -Old Man Mountain Extreme front Lowrider, skewer mounted. -Old Man Mountain Sherpa rear rack, skewer mounted. Bags: -Sackville Medium zip tied to top of rear rack and B-17 -Jandd Mini Mountain pannier bags hanging on rear rack -Ortleib full size rollers on the front lowrider. -tent poles strapped to back of the sackville and remaining space of rear rack. Misc: -Three full Sig bottles in the cages and Camelback strapped over the Sackville on the rear rack. Three bottles were NO WHERE NEAR enough for a day's ride in the Mountains of Washington. We had no idea where we'd find water, so we brought it with us. I'll post a pic soon. It worked like a dream. So stable. Plenty fast and nimble for what we were doing. 60-70 miles per day. Massive climbs. The frame didn't make a peep. More info than you probably wanted, but I can't say enough about the Bomba for touring. Patrick On Jan 11, 12:53 pm, Montclair BobbyB montclairbob...@gmail.com wrote: Patrick: Do you have pics of your loaded Bomba? I'd be curious to hear how you distributed weight. Thx, Bobby Not Quite Tall Enough at 6'1 Birmingham On Jan 11, 8:41 am, LouisvillePatrick flightofthebomba...@gmail.com wrote: I'm 6'4, 280 lb. 96cm PBH 64cm Bomba (maybe should have gotten a 60. When I put on the Small Block 8's, there isn't much room for bailout over the top tube. Absolutely brilliant for fully loaded touring, though.) 67cm Hilsen (should be delivered tomorrow!) I've found that the double top tube is the secret to my success and frame longevity. I've grown to love the look. The stiffness and support improvement is indisputable. I've toured, fully loaded, self-supported, on the Bomba every summer since I got it. I've put close to 90 pounds on it with absolutely no problem. Happy to discuss my touring experience with anyone! Patrick- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Informal Tall Riders Group
Hey Dave, that's a really nice Bombadil you have there. What size is your QB. Our QB set-ups are very similar. For the group, here's a picture of Patrick's Bombadil. I was in the Gorge last summer with my wife and we stopped at Multnomah Falls. I was going to get a cup of coffee, saw some touring cyclist mulling around and figured I'd talk to them when I noticed their bikes and saw Patrick's Bombadil. It looked fantastic all decked out for touring. Ironically, about 2 months later I was on a mini tour doing the same route Patrick had just finished but in the opposite direction and at right at the bottom of Old Man Pass this couple comes bombing down the hill and the guy was clearly on a Bombadil. We didn't talk but it was so funny to see that. Anyway, here's Patrick's Bombadil: http://www.flickr.com/photos/41335...@n00/4887334470/ --mike (who is too short for the tall riders group but might be appropriate for a medium height long legged wide helmet wearing rider's group) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
Butts are like opinions. Everyone has one and they're all different. It's a great thing that between Cardiff/VO, Brooks, Berthoud and others we have great choices of saddles. Plus, since there's always someone looking for a new saddle to try it's easy to jettison failed experiments. (like my VO racing saddle. Anyone want it?) ;) On Jan 8, 2:27 pm, Lee leec...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Rene. I just got mine in. Here's a brief visual comparison of the saddle vis-a-vis a B-17 Champion Special: http://tinyurl.com/23eyb8o I've been slowly accumulating parts to upgrade my distance bike. The Aspin will replace a Selle An-Atomica, which will go to my saddle-less camping/utility bike. I had been switching my B-17S between my commuter (the Quickbeam) and the utility bike. Best, Lee On Jan 7, 3:47 pm, Rene Sterental orthie...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding forward. Always thought it should be flatter. Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy. René Sent from my iPhone 4 On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Kelly Sleeper tkslee...@gmail.com wrote: Only reason I wouldn't try a 200 dollar saddle is if I can't return it. It looks to me to be a very well made comfortable saddle that has a benefit if you buy thier saddle bags too. I would also out of desperation try it if I didn't have comfortable saddles now. wallbike.com 6month unconditional return guarantee. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Nitto saddlebag grip with sprung Brooks saddle... experiences?
Hi! Does anyone have any experience using the Nitto saddlebag grip with a *sprung* Brooks saddle? I've never seen a sprung Brooks saddle in the flesh... but I wonder if the Nitto saddlebag grip might be attached along the horizontal rail connecting the springs at the bottom. Yours, Thomas Lynn Skean -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
Goes on my interwebs wisdom list. All I'll ever need to know about finding the right seat. -JImD On Jan 12, 2011, at 8:52 AM Jan 12, 2011, Justin August wrote: Butts are like opinions. Everyone has one and they're all different. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Informal Tall Riders Group
Hi everybody: I've been away from email access for a couple of weeks, and am just reading this thread started by Robert. Great! I am 6'6, pbh 94, long torso, and ride a 68cm Quickbeam, along with several other tall bikes. I've been posting for years on this forum, its predecessor, and on the BOB list about large bikes, and thought it might be useful to have a forum just for the problems and joys of large bikes, so I have created a Google Group called Large Bicycles. It's a little different than the Flickr group above, in that it isn't focussed just on Rivendells, although this is the company which has serves us so well in the present. Essentially, it's like Grant Peterson's original BOB list, but for people who are (loosely defined) 6'4 or over, and who ride bikes with (loosely defined) 66cm seat tubes and up. So if you're interested in participating, here's the address: http://groups.google.com/group/large-bicycles It's not moderated, but I might remind people to keep on topic from time to time. Anyway: if you're tall and would like sometimes to carry on more focussed discussions on the issues with large bicycles than you can here, then please join and we'll see how the group develops. Arthur S. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Informal Tall Riders Group
Thanks, Mike. The QB is a 64cm bike. I've added a nitto big rack to the back since the photos were taken. It's my favorite commute bike. Dave On Jan 12, 8:42 am, Mike mjawn...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Dave, that's a really nice Bombadil you have there. What size is your QB. Our QB set-ups are very similar. For the group, here's a picture of Patrick's Bombadil. I was in the Gorge last summer with my wife and we stopped at Multnomah Falls. I was going to get a cup of coffee, saw some touring cyclist mulling around and figured I'd talk to them when I noticed their bikes and saw Patrick's Bombadil. It looked fantastic all decked out for touring. Ironically, about 2 months later I was on a mini tour doing the same route Patrick had just finished but in the opposite direction and at right at the bottom of Old Man Pass this couple comes bombing down the hill and the guy was clearly on a Bombadil. We didn't talk but it was so funny to see that. Anyway, here's Patrick's Bombadil: http://www.flickr.com/photos/41335...@n00/4887334470/ --mike (who is too short for the tall riders group but might be appropriate for a medium height long legged wide helmet wearing rider's group) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
From a very crude look at the VO seatpost on their website, it seems like it has significantly less setback than the Nitto. There's also that issue, a-la-G.P, 'if you're gonna put that much setback in, it better be steel'. This post basically took my Quickbeam from an 'off- the-rack' feel to custom tailored (I probably should have gotten a 66 frame, but got a 64 because of inaccurate PBH measurement). I expect it to do the same for the other 64cm frame it's going on, and if that's the case, it's well worth the high cost (and I expect it to last several lifetimes). The S-84 can be had for $150 (w. shipping) from these guys, who I can vouch for after buying one from them previously: http://www.bikemania.biz/Nitto_Seatpost_S84_Lugged_Steel_Seatpost_p/nitto_s84.htm On Jan 12, 1:09 am, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: I got one of those for Xmas, and really like the two bolt design. I am worried about the clamping area as it seems much narrower than a Nitto, Thomspon, or brand X clamp. Seems like it could concentrate vibrations over a smaller area and lead to fatigue on the saddle rails. Time will tell... On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 10:06 AM, NickBull nick.bike.b...@gmail.com wrote: It's a little unclear just how much setback the Nitto lugged seatpost has. Rivendell says it has 15mm more than the Crystal Fellow, and on AEBike's website, it says that the Crystal Fellow has 14mm of setback, so that would imply that the lugged seatpost has around 30mm of setback. That's the same amount of setback as the Velo Orange Grand Cru seatpost, 30.2mm. I've been riding one of those for a little over a month and it is a really nice 2-bolt seatpost. Much less expensive than the Nitto, though not as blingy of course. Nick On Jan 9, 6:19 pm, Mike S mikeshalj...@gmail.com wrote: Well, based on that near-certainty of bent rails based on what I want to do, it seems another $150 Nitto S-84 seatpost B17 combo is in order for me. It is strange that S.A would design rails that lend themselves to failure-inducing experiments, but I'm glad I can learn from experience. Life shure is tougher for us long-legged, long-armed dudes... but who can whine about having a fancy lugged seatpost? On Jan 9, 4:58 pm, Bill M. bmenn...@comcast.net wrote: No Bomba in my stable! It didn't take anything extreme, just having the saddle too far back, a seatpost clamp that didn't support the rails properly (an old American Classic) and my 180 lb body were enough to bend the rails. As I said, I bent them back and I still ride the saddle, but with a different post and a less extreme position. Jason, If the mfg. says don't do this and you do anyway, don't you own some responsibility for the results? Bill On Jan 9, 9:33 am, Philip Williamson philip.william...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 8, 9:49 pm, Bill M. bmenn...@comcast.net wrote: Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in the past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme riding. ... They aren't kidding. Ask how I know... Hucking your Bombadil? Philip Philip Williamsonwww.biketinker.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Cheers, David Redlands, CA *...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Flickr link
I've somehow, cleverly managed to delete this link, could somebody hook a brother up? RGZ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words
As Grant and I are approx the same age (29) it's nice to know he has an interest in the old stuff as well. On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 12:48 AM, grant grant...@gmail.com wrote: This is rather long, sorry. I've owned a buncha Ritcheys. • lugged road frame from '76 • custom fillet frame from '81 • custom tandem fillet from '81 • non-custom road from '89 • custom mtn bike from '87 And my then girlfriend/now wife had a road frame, too. The first year of Rivendell, I had to sell EVERYTHING to pay bills. A disaster, but I had great replacements. Here are some observations on his frames---not presented as facts, just obbies: 1. The lugged one was one he made for the Palo Alto Bike Shop, then a hotshotshop (may still be, I dunno). They were Reynolds, lugged, and undecaled, but I got the decals and put them on. I hear Jobst Brandt had a hand in designing the decals. 2. Before I got that frame, the fastest local guy in our club, Rick Baldwin, had three, with the fillet stem and all. One was a criterium bike, with fork crown points on the outside that extended halfway down the forkblades, all the better to stiffen the forks more, to resist high g-forces in criteriums. Mostly it was Tom showing off, and he had a right to, and did it well. This bike was a 5-speed, and I saw Rick outsprint Greg Lemond to win the Berkeley Criterium in '77 or '78. Greg then was riding Junior gears, and Rick probably had a 53 x 13, but even so, it was impressive, and the last time I saw Lemond race and not win, and I saw tons of wins. 3. My custom was made of Columbus SP tubing and had a fillet stem. The frame was purplish and the stem was green. I stretched my budget by ordering that and the tandem at the same time, in '80. I made time payments on them both and paid them off in '81. The single cost me $500, and the tandem was $1200, and had the most extensive lateral and cross bracing you could ever imagine. It was as though he was looking for ways to increase his work, but it was a beautiful frame. The tubing was straight gauge unbranded CrMo with the same 1.25 downtube and 1.125 top tube and 1 headset that used to be considered oversize, and that Riv still uses today. There was no noticeable wiggle in the frame, even though these dimensions would be considered way too skinny these days (by anybody except JHeine). If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. 3. When I was ordering my custom, I asked Tom, Should I get short reach or standard? Short was the rage and I didn't want to be left behind. Tom said, Get regular, it's more useful. More clearance. Short is for specialty bikes. Now short is normal, but it's still as limiting as it was then. 4. I could fit 32mm tires, easily. 5. On the tandem, Tom tried to talk me into sidepulls, but I held out for cantilevers. Tom probably didn't brake as much as I did. 6. I put a TA triple on the tandem, 54 x 49 x 32, and used an outer ring f or the middle. If you did this you could bolt the middle and outer ring together, stiffening the rings. It was one of those insider tricks of the day. 7. I ordered my custom mtn frame way too small, but what did I know? I got a 49. Low bb, steeper angles than normal (73 seat 72 head), and with 126mm spacing instead of the std (of the day) 130. He built it at 130. I called him about it, and expected he'd spread it, but he said, I'll have another one to you in a week, and he did. 8. There wasn't QUITE enough tire clearance, and Tom said, Bring it by and I'll fix it. I brought it by, he put the chainstays down on a wooden bench, on the inside of the chainstay he placed a mallet of some kind probably shaped to do this, and whacked it super hard three times with a big hammer, as I watch and listened afraid of the damage and afraid to look. Then he repeated it on the other side. It made a good case for steel tubes. 9. The custom mtn frame I returned with the 130 was used to win one Nat'l Championship, and then another guy rode it to many top finishes. I saw it in the race photos. It was cream frame, blue seat tube panel. Tom was by a few months ago and rode a 62 Hunqapillar with Alba bars in the local hills. He was a strong influence for many years. I don't mean to say I'm beyond that now, because there isn't any beyond Tom Ritchey when it comes to bikes. He and his company are on a different path than we are, but I've always liked Tom and I always look forward to seeing him when he stops by, a couple of times a year by surprise. G -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
[RBW] Re: Flickr link
To what on flickr? On Jan 12, 11:50 am, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: I've somehow, cleverly managed to delete this link, could somebody hook a brother up? RGZ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Rivendell readers to Kindle
I hope this is on topic enough. Does anyone know of a way to make the Riv reader pdfs more Kindle friendly? I can put them on mine, but it's a pain to read them. Thanks, Clyde Canter -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
The ~10mm I moved my seat back really has helped with my set up. I'm limited to a Dirt Drop stem for the height I need on my AR, and it's always been too short in reach. The VO setback makes it much more comfortable. I don't think I'm using the full extension of setback (14mm), so hopefully it won't snap off on me. It still seems like the clamping area itself should be a little larger to distribute the forces better. I've been meaning to measure and compare/contrast to a model 65... On Jan 12, 11:28 am, Mike S mikeshalj...@gmail.com wrote: From a very crude look at the VO seatpost on their website, it seems like it has significantly less setback than the Nitto. There's also that issue, a-la-G.P, 'if you're gonna put that much setback in, it better be steel'. This post basically took my Quickbeam from an 'off- the-rack' feel to custom tailored (I probably should have gotten a 66 frame, but got a 64 because of inaccurate PBH measurement). I expect it to do the same for the other 64cm frame it's going on, and if that's the case, it's well worth the high cost (and I expect it to last several lifetimes). The S-84 can be had for $150 (w. shipping) from these guys, who I can vouch for after buying one from them previously:http://www.bikemania.biz/Nitto_Seatpost_S84_Lugged_Steel_Seatpost_p/n... On Jan 12, 1:09 am, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: I got one of those for Xmas, and really like the two bolt design. I am worried about the clamping area as it seems much narrower than a Nitto, Thomspon, or brand X clamp. Seems like it could concentrate vibrations over a smaller area and lead to fatigue on the saddle rails. Time will tell... On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 10:06 AM, NickBull nick.bike.b...@gmail.com wrote: It's a little unclear just how much setback the Nitto lugged seatpost has. Rivendell says it has 15mm more than the Crystal Fellow, and on AEBike's website, it says that the Crystal Fellow has 14mm of setback, so that would imply that the lugged seatpost has around 30mm of setback. That's the same amount of setback as the Velo Orange Grand Cru seatpost, 30.2mm. I've been riding one of those for a little over a month and it is a really nice 2-bolt seatpost. Much less expensive than the Nitto, though not as blingy of course. Nick On Jan 9, 6:19 pm, Mike S mikeshalj...@gmail.com wrote: Well, based on that near-certainty of bent rails based on what I want to do, it seems another $150 Nitto S-84 seatpost B17 combo is in order for me. It is strange that S.A would design rails that lend themselves to failure-inducing experiments, but I'm glad I can learn from experience. Life shure is tougher for us long-legged, long-armed dudes... but who can whine about having a fancy lugged seatpost? On Jan 9, 4:58 pm, Bill M. bmenn...@comcast.net wrote: No Bomba in my stable! It didn't take anything extreme, just having the saddle too far back, a seatpost clamp that didn't support the rails properly (an old American Classic) and my 180 lb body were enough to bend the rails. As I said, I bent them back and I still ride the saddle, but with a different post and a less extreme position. Jason, If the mfg. says don't do this and you do anyway, don't you own some responsibility for the results? Bill On Jan 9, 9:33 am, Philip Williamson philip.william...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 8, 9:49 pm, Bill M. bmenn...@comcast.net wrote: Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in the past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme riding. ... They aren't kidding. Ask how I know... Hucking your Bombadil? Philip Philip Williamsonwww.biketinker.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Cheers, David Redlands, CA *...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Flickr link
Sorry, the tall riders group. On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 3:17 PM, cyclotour...@gmail.com cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: To what on flickr? On Jan 12, 11:50 am, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: I've somehow, cleverly managed to delete this link, could somebody hook a brother up? RGZ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Flickr link
on 1/12/11 11:50 AM, robert zeidler at zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: I've somehow, cleverly managed to delete this link, could somebody hook a brother up? Ooop - missed the tall rider group from this past week. http://www.flickr.com/groups/1602...@n21/pool/ - J -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: FS: Atlantis 61cm complete bike
Here's a link to photos of the Atlantis for sale: http://tinyurl.com/6cejfq4 Thanks, -- Forrest (Iowa City) On Jan 9, 9:35 pm, Forrest ftme...@me.com wrote: I recently bought a 61 cm Atlantis complete bike from a good guy on this group. I thought the Atlantis was going to be just the thing (I once had a 58cm Atlantis that was just a touch too small) to fill a certain set of my cycling needs. After doing a bunch of swapping of components (mostly cockpits and wheels) between the Atlantis and my 56cm Hillborne, and doing several test rides, I have decided (somewhat to my surprise) to sell the Atlantis and keep the Hillborne. I would prefer to sell the Atlantis as a complete bike. Here's the set-up: 61cm Atlantis frameset with Ultegra headset (I will include a new bottle of matching Testor's touch-up paint.) The frame is in very good condition (8.5-9 out of 10), but there are a few very minor chips/ nicks here and there. Nitto moustache bars with non-aero Dia-Comp brake levers Nitto Dirt Drop Stem Nitto 65 seat post Brooks B17 Champion Special saddle, very dark green (looks almost black) Rivendell Silver shifters Shimano R550 Cantilevers Shimano xt Front Derailer Shimano lx Rear Derailer Sugino triple crank with new Surly 36t chainring MKS Touring pedals Wheels -- 32--spoke, Deore LX hubs, Salsa Delgado rims, built by Jim at Hiawatha Cyclery (Mpls.) 12-28 9-speed cassette Tires -- Continental Travel Contact 37's I will post some photos later this week, but not till Wednesday or Thursday at earliest (that's just how circumstances developed). $1,800 includes shipping in CONUSA and professional packing. Inquiries and expressions of interest off-list, please. Thanks for considering. -- Forrest (Iowa City) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words
If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. I'd love to see it. I'd hope to be able to consider buying one. On Jan 11, 9:48 pm, grant grant...@gmail.com wrote: This is rather long, sorry. I've owned a buncha Ritcheys. • lugged road frame from '76 • custom fillet frame from '81 • custom tandem fillet from '81 • non-custom road from '89 • custom mtn bike from '87 And my then girlfriend/now wife had a road frame, too. The first year of Rivendell, I had to sell EVERYTHING to pay bills. A disaster, but I had great replacements. Here are some observations on his frames---not presented as facts, just obbies: 1. The lugged one was one he made for the Palo Alto Bike Shop, then a hotshotshop (may still be, I dunno). They were Reynolds, lugged, and undecaled, but I got the decals and put them on. I hear Jobst Brandt had a hand in designing the decals. 2. Before I got that frame, the fastest local guy in our club, Rick Baldwin, had three, with the fillet stem and all. One was a criterium bike, with fork crown points on the outside that extended halfway down the forkblades, all the better to stiffen the forks more, to resist high g-forces in criteriums. Mostly it was Tom showing off, and he had a right to, and did it well. This bike was a 5-speed, and I saw Rick outsprint Greg Lemond to win the Berkeley Criterium in '77 or '78. Greg then was riding Junior gears, and Rick probably had a 53 x 13, but even so, it was impressive, and the last time I saw Lemond race and not win, and I saw tons of wins. 3. My custom was made of Columbus SP tubing and had a fillet stem. The frame was purplish and the stem was green. I stretched my budget by ordering that and the tandem at the same time, in '80. I made time payments on them both and paid them off in '81. The single cost me $500, and the tandem was $1200, and had the most extensive lateral and cross bracing you could ever imagine. It was as though he was looking for ways to increase his work, but it was a beautiful frame. The tubing was straight gauge unbranded CrMo with the same 1.25 downtube and 1.125 top tube and 1 headset that used to be considered oversize, and that Riv still uses today. There was no noticeable wiggle in the frame, even though these dimensions would be considered way too skinny these days (by anybody except JHeine). If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. 3. When I was ordering my custom, I asked Tom, Should I get short reach or standard? Short was the rage and I didn't want to be left behind. Tom said, Get regular, it's more useful. More clearance. Short is for specialty bikes. Now short is normal, but it's still as limiting as it was then. 4. I could fit 32mm tires, easily. 5. On the tandem, Tom tried to talk me into sidepulls, but I held out for cantilevers. Tom probably didn't brake as much as I did. 6. I put a TA triple on the tandem, 54 x 49 x 32, and used an outer ring f or the middle. If you did this you could bolt the middle and outer ring together, stiffening the rings. It was one of those insider tricks of the day. 7. I ordered my custom mtn frame way too small, but what did I know? I got a 49. Low bb, steeper angles than normal (73 seat 72 head), and with 126mm spacing instead of the std (of the day) 130. He built it at 130. I called him about it, and expected he'd spread it, but he said, I'll have another one to you in a week, and he did. 8. There wasn't QUITE enough tire clearance, and Tom said, Bring it by and I'll fix it. I brought it by, he put the chainstays down on a wooden bench, on the inside of the chainstay he placed a mallet of some kind probably shaped to do this, and whacked it super hard three times with a big hammer, as I watch and listened afraid of the damage and afraid to look. Then he repeated it on the other side. It made a good case for steel tubes. 9. The custom mtn frame I returned with the 130 was used to win one Nat'l Championship, and then another guy rode it to many top finishes. I saw it in the race photos. It was cream frame, blue seat tube panel. Tom was by a few months ago and rode a 62 Hunqapillar with Alba bars in the local hills. He was a strong influence for many years. I don't mean to say I'm beyond that now, because there isn't any beyond Tom Ritchey when it comes to bikes. He and his company are on a different path than we are, but I've always liked Tom and I always look forward to seeing him when he stops by, a couple of times a year by surprise. G -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:20 PM, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. I'd love to see it. I'd hope to be able to consider buying one. How many tandems pre-ordered does it take to cover the dev of the lugs? Alternatively, would it ever be possible for a tandem as a full-custom? I'm ever-hopeful but probably just going to talk to bilenky. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Flickr link
Team work! On Jan 12, 12:46 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: on 1/12/11 11:50 AM, robert zeidler at zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: I've somehow, cleverly managed to delete this link, could somebody hook a brother up? Ooop - missed the tall rider group from this past week. http://www.flickr.com/groups/1602...@n21/pool/ - J -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words
Yeah boy, a 65 x 58 custom. Oh man Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: William tapebu...@gmail.com Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:20:48 To: RBW Owners Bunchrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. I'd love to see it. I'd hope to be able to consider buying one. On Jan 11, 9:48 pm, grant grant...@gmail.com wrote: This is rather long, sorry. I've owned a buncha Ritcheys. • lugged road frame from '76 • custom fillet frame from '81 • custom tandem fillet from '81 • non-custom road from '89 • custom mtn bike from '87 And my then girlfriend/now wife had a road frame, too. The first year of Rivendell, I had to sell EVERYTHING to pay bills. A disaster, but I had great replacements. Here are some observations on his frames---not presented as facts, just obbies: 1. The lugged one was one he made for the Palo Alto Bike Shop, then a hotshotshop (may still be, I dunno). They were Reynolds, lugged, and undecaled, but I got the decals and put them on. I hear Jobst Brandt had a hand in designing the decals. 2. Before I got that frame, the fastest local guy in our club, Rick Baldwin, had three, with the fillet stem and all. One was a criterium bike, with fork crown points on the outside that extended halfway down the forkblades, all the better to stiffen the forks more, to resist high g-forces in criteriums. Mostly it was Tom showing off, and he had a right to, and did it well. This bike was a 5-speed, and I saw Rick outsprint Greg Lemond to win the Berkeley Criterium in '77 or '78. Greg then was riding Junior gears, and Rick probably had a 53 x 13, but even so, it was impressive, and the last time I saw Lemond race and not win, and I saw tons of wins. 3. My custom was made of Columbus SP tubing and had a fillet stem. The frame was purplish and the stem was green. I stretched my budget by ordering that and the tandem at the same time, in '80. I made time payments on them both and paid them off in '81. The single cost me $500, and the tandem was $1200, and had the most extensive lateral and cross bracing you could ever imagine. It was as though he was looking for ways to increase his work, but it was a beautiful frame. The tubing was straight gauge unbranded CrMo with the same 1.25 downtube and 1.125 top tube and 1 headset that used to be considered oversize, and that Riv still uses today. There was no noticeable wiggle in the frame, even though these dimensions would be considered way too skinny these days (by anybody except JHeine). If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. 3. When I was ordering my custom, I asked Tom, Should I get short reach or standard? Short was the rage and I didn't want to be left behind. Tom said, Get regular, it's more useful. More clearance. Short is for specialty bikes. Now short is normal, but it's still as limiting as it was then. 4. I could fit 32mm tires, easily. 5. On the tandem, Tom tried to talk me into sidepulls, but I held out for cantilevers. Tom probably didn't brake as much as I did. 6. I put a TA triple on the tandem, 54 x 49 x 32, and used an outer ring f or the middle. If you did this you could bolt the middle and outer ring together, stiffening the rings. It was one of those insider tricks of the day. 7. I ordered my custom mtn frame way too small, but what did I know? I got a 49. Low bb, steeper angles than normal (73 seat 72 head), and with 126mm spacing instead of the std (of the day) 130. He built it at 130. I called him about it, and expected he'd spread it, but he said, I'll have another one to you in a week, and he did. 8. There wasn't QUITE enough tire clearance, and Tom said, Bring it by and I'll fix it. I brought it by, he put the chainstays down on a wooden bench, on the inside of the chainstay he placed a mallet of some kind probably shaped to do this, and whacked it super hard three times with a big hammer, as I watch and listened afraid of the damage and afraid to look. Then he repeated it on the other side. It made a good case for steel tubes. 9. The custom mtn frame I returned with the 130 was used to win one Nat'l Championship, and then another guy rode it to many top finishes. I saw it in the race photos. It was cream frame, blue seat tube panel. Tom was by a few months ago and rode a 62 Hunqapillar with Alba bars in the local hills. He was a strong influence for many years. I don't mean to say I'm beyond that now, because there isn't any beyond Tom Ritchey when it comes to bikes. He and his company are on a different path than we are, but I've always liked Tom and I always look forward to seeing him when he stops by, a couple of times a year by surprise. G -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners
[RBW] Re: Flickr link
Also these: Rivendell All Rounder - http://www.flickr.com/groups/1453...@n25/ Rivendell Hunqapillar - http://www.flickr.com/groups/1358...@n23/ Rivendell Simpleone - http://www.flickr.com/groups/1377...@n24/ Marty On Jan 12, 3:24 pm, cyclotour...@gmail.com cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: And lets not forget this one! a href=http://www.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/groups/ rivendell_valve_stems/Rivendell Valve Stems/a On Jan 12, 12:46 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: on 1/12/11 11:50 AM, robert zeidler at zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: I've somehow, cleverly managed to delete this link, could somebody hook a brother up? Ooop - missed the tall rider group from this past week. http://www.flickr.com/groups/1602...@n21/pool/ - J -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Flickr link
http://www.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/groups/rivendell_valve_stems/ Stupid HTML On Jan 12, 1:24 pm, cyclotour...@gmail.com cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: And lets not forget this one! a href=http://www.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/groups/ rivendell_valve_stems/Rivendell Valve Stems/a On Jan 12, 12:46 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: on 1/12/11 11:50 AM, robert zeidler at zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: I've somehow, cleverly managed to delete this link, could somebody hook a brother up? Ooop - missed the tall rider group from this past week. http://www.flickr.com/groups/1602...@n21/pool/ - J -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Flickr link
hunqapillar group; http://www.flickr.com/groups/1358...@n23/ On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 2:20 PM, cyclotour...@gmail.com cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/groups/rivendell_valve_stems/ Stupid HTML On Jan 12, 1:24 pm, cyclotour...@gmail.com cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote: And lets not forget this one! a href=http://www.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/groups/ rivendell_valve_stems/Rivendell Valve Stems/a On Jan 12, 12:46 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: on 1/12/11 11:50 AM, robert zeidler at zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: I've somehow, cleverly managed to delete this link, could somebody hook a brother up? Ooop - missed the tall rider group from this past week. http://www.flickr.com/groups/1602...@n21/pool/ - J -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- oakland, ca bikenoir.blogspot.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Informal Tall Riders Group
I will also chime in from the fringes at 6'3 with a PBH around 91 I would be the short kid in the club. I hide my 220lbs well, but when I see pictures of myself on the roadeo, at times it looks like a toy beneath me. I cannot resist throwing out a hows the weather up there as it was the first thing that poped into my head when I made it home to take a look at this pic: http://oceanaircycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/1.12-grocery-3.jpg As the tallest kid in the class my whole life I heard that almost as much as so do you play basketball? Rob -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Rivendell readers to Kindle
If you're on a Mac, try opening it in Preview and then saving it (to a new location, like the desktop). I've tried that with PDFs that are difficult to read on other devices, and it often works. --Eric N On Jan 12, 2011, at 12:18 PM, ccanter clyde.can...@gmail.com wrote: I hope this is on topic enough. Does anyone know of a way to make the Riv reader pdfs more Kindle friendly? I can put them on mine, but it's a pain to read them. Thanks, Clyde Canter -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: wheelsets for sale
OLD of the rear is 135 mm. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: wheelsets for sale
I have lots of rims. I think they're all interesting. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: What Makes the Rivendell
I would be willing to bet that there are several in this group who have ridden road and/or mountain race bikes who were quite good at the sport. I have had a great deal of satisfaction on steel, titanium and carbon/ti road racing bikes. I can tell you one of my favorite bikes was a Holdsworth 531 Special, my first road bike. I built it... crashed it... and toured cross country on it twice. Thirty plus years later I have gone through nearly thirty bicycles and five motorcycles. Happily I have found riding narvana on most all of them. A year ago I found Jan Heine and the Bicycling Quarterly magazine. Reading his magazine encouraged me to research bicycling in in a much broader sense than I had fallen into. That brought me to the RBW Owners Bunch. In the last two weeks I have spent many hours reading most of what has been posted on the site. I once again have found some of the lost enthusiasm I had towards riding a bike strictly for the thrill of turning the pedals and looking for what was over the next hill. I currently own six road and one cross bike. I secretly have two or three road bikes I would like to get, but I can tell you there is a Riv in my future. We live in a time where people can't wait for the next electronic stimulant to be brought forward. Thankfully I find enjoyment over the same toy I first pedaled forty-five years ago ... and I intend to never let it go. On Jan 11, 10:04 pm, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: There's a really fine line here. Which aspects are worth dwelling upon and obsessing over and which aspects are to be discarded, freeing your mind and your soul to just be happy and enjoy yourself? I'm pretty certain Grant can't tell you. There are details of his frame designs that he never talks about, never posts about, and that you and I would never notice, but he obsesses over. There are other design details that customers dwell and obsess over, to which Grant correctly says 'not a big deal, just enjoy yourself' to the handwringers. Some of us use to be weight weenies in a past life and now we're bag- matchers. Some of us brag about how we stop and smell the roses, but are infuriated that we can't find the right shade of celery green cloth tape, or can't post on the forum without pointing out that we are rocking 584mm rims. My two cents on the original question is that the rider makes the Rivendell. The designs and the business ethos of RBW I think at least enables a certain kind of relationship between bike and rider that is not unique or new, but is also not universal or even common. Certainly not 100% of Rivendell owners feel a deep emotional attachment to their Riv(s), but it's my opinion that a higher fraction of Rivs than most other makes are loved the way a favorite pet is loved. Maybe not like a child, spouse, or other close relation, but not far short. Some people buy a Riv and say after the fact I thought it was going to be some magic carpet of cycling and it just didn't do anything for me. Some people who have a number of Rivs even have that underwhelmed feeling. I mark that up to the relationship, not the bike. It's like when two people meet, and you thought they'd hit it off and something just doesn't click. Anyway, I just don't think that Specialized or Cannondale owners have that kind of vibe with their bikes, even if they 'love' their bikes. I think Riv owners 'get' their bikes. Also, I think that few Rivs are flaunted like trophies. There's plenty of snobbery among us, to be sure. Some of us scoff at plastic fenders and zip ties with the same sneer that dismisses brifters, crabon, and disc brakes, but I think we'd all be in an uproar over the thought of a Riv as a collectors item. It has to be ridden. There's a fine line there, too. Get all worked up over massive mileage or brevets and you'll run the risk of being called out for not smelling the roses enough or draw the I don't have to fill out a card and have a Frenchman authenticate it to tell ME I had a good ride! crack from the crowd. This response is all over the place, but I think it's a complicated set of emotions and feelings, and I think it has as much to do with people as it does with bikes. On Jan 11, 3:34 pm, williwoods willh...@yahoo.com wrote: On Jan 10, 12:38 pm, Esteban proto...@gmail.com wrote: I've found that if you follow Riv's sizing guidelines and part suggestions, then the bike will tempt you to stop and smell the roses - to ramble and amble and enjoy the scenery. This is the case with my 650B Nobilette-built Protovelo. ^ This ^ for me this is largely what I couldn't put into words earlier. I have been one of those 'ride as fast as you can' and 'impress buddies with fancy gear' types in the past. I took several years off of serious riding, then picked up my Bombadil. I have been converted. im no longer in a big hurry and am now focused on looking around, smelling the roses,
[RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words
Us too. I called Rivendell when Grant first mentioned a tandem a couple years ago in a reader, and tried to put down a deposit, but they declined. We're ready anytime, Grant. I have a Toyo-built Ritchey Logic road frameset that I bought new in 1995. After owning a couple of Rivendell production bikes, I had the Ritchey refurbished in 2008 with a new Bilenky steel fork with extended steerer tube, clearances changed to accommodate 57mm reach brakes and new fender eyelets. It's my personal Ritchey-Bilenky Roadeo. It's not my best bike, but it's my favorite, if that makes sense. Ed Felker On Jan 12, 4:22 pm, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:20 PM, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. I'd love to see it. I'd hope to be able to consider buying one. How many tandems pre-ordered does it take to cover the dev of the lugs? Alternatively, would it ever be possible for a tandem as a full-custom? I'm ever-hopeful but probably just going to talk to bilenky. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words
Ed, I'd like to see some photos of that customized Ritchey! - Chris Kostman http://www.XO-1.org On Jan 12, 8:02 pm, eddie...@gmail.com eddie...@gmail.com wrote: Us too. I called Rivendell when Grant first mentioned a tandem a couple years ago in a reader, and tried to put down a deposit, but they declined. We're ready anytime, Grant. I have a Toyo-built Ritchey Logic road frameset that I bought new in 1995. After owning a couple of Rivendell production bikes, I had the Ritchey refurbished in 2008 with a new Bilenky steel fork with extended steerer tube, clearances changed to accommodate 57mm reach brakes and new fender eyelets. It's my personal Ritchey-Bilenky Roadeo. It's not my best bike, but it's my favorite, if that makes sense. Ed Felker On Jan 12, 4:22 pm, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:20 PM, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. I'd love to see it. I'd hope to be able to consider buying one. How many tandems pre-ordered does it take to cover the dev of the lugs? Alternatively, would it ever be possible for a tandem as a full-custom? I'm ever-hopeful but probably just going to talk to bilenky. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words
I'd buy a Rivendell tandem and did let GP know of that fact a few years ago, when this previously came up. - Chris Kostman http://www.XO-1.org On Jan 12, 1:22 pm, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:20 PM, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: If we ever do a tandem, we'll likely do the same. I'd love to see it. I'd hope to be able to consider buying one. How many tandems pre-ordered does it take to cover the dev of the lugs? Alternatively, would it ever be possible for a tandem as a full-custom? I'm ever-hopeful but probably just going to talk to bilenky. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Flickr link
on 1/12/11 2:22 PM, erik jensen at bicyclen...@gmail.com wrote: hunqapillar group; http://www.flickr.com/groups/1358127@N23/ Thanks to everyone who forwarded links to the flickr groups! I'm going to aggregate them this week, but in the meantime - if you are the person who administers any of the particular flickr groups, you might go back and give it an official name. It's pretty straight forward for the person who administers the group, once you log in and go to the group admin tab/link. The benefit is that the link will no longer have the @ symbol in the url. In some people's email, that will render oddly, invalidating the link. It also makes a better mnemonic - if you know that flickr groups start with www.flickr.com/groups, then you just have to think hilsen, roadeo, etc. - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcome; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace. William Gibson - All Tomorrow's Parties -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Tom Ritchey, in His Own Words
Ok Grant .. right after you supply my 68cm simpleone.. you can go to work on my 71 x 61 Tandem -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011
Just one more bit of praise for Jim and his efforts to keep this going and one for all the people who post here. Every time I look elsewhere there seems to be anger,attitude and bickering, but not here. There is a certain level of respect and tolerance for other opinions and a general harmony. I find it very unusual in todays world to have such a pleasant place to ask questions and share each other's passion. ~Mike~ On Jan 12, 6:36 am, Ray Shine r.sh...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Agreed! Great list! I read it often. I also use it a lot to stay supplied. I have this list to thank for the purchase from list members of two bicycles, several drawers full of yet-to-be-used/applied parts and accessories, and a rack of tires. I have no doubt that if my wife could figure out a way to apply parental controls to this forum, I'd be entirely restricted by now. From: Allingham II, Thomas J thomas.alling...@skadden.com To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 6:17:05 AM Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011 Jim: What John (and others) said -- it's one of the small but important pleasures of my day to read all of the posts and keep up with folks I feel like I've gotten to know through this list. And they are people worth getting to know! Thanks again. Tom -Original Message- From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Bennett Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:04 AM To: RBW Owners Bunch Subject: [RBW] Re: State of the List Report - January 2011 As always, Jim, we're appreciative of all the work it takes to administer a list like this. I know, because we tried. You make it seem effortless, but I know from personal experience that it is not. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Thank you, again, John everyone at RBW HQ Walnut Creek 96, Calif. On Jan 10, 2:33 pm, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote: State of the Rivendell Bicycle Works Owner's Bunch Mailing List January 2011 - #11 We're solidly in the center of winter - although those of you who are enjoying high summer in the southern hemisphere will just have to imagine. For the 250 or so who have come onboard the group in the last half a year, this please accept a slightly belated Welcome! Hopefully, you've enjoyed the discussions, chimed in a bit on your own, and continued to make this group vital and vibrant. It has been very gratifying to watch this list mature. As I've mentioned to some long-time members privately, I'm both excited and concerned about the growth of this group. I've tried to take a little more of a hands-off approach in terms of commenting as an admin, and had planned on no more than quarterly State Of The List Reports. For the newer members, I use this message as a reminder of some of the basic tenets of the list, to highlight changes and trends on the list and various websites, and to speak generally about the RBW group. In the beginning, since this group had picked up the pieces from another list, it seemed appropriate to actively remind folks about the tenor and tenets of the group. As we've grown, the most important aspect of this group - the tone between us - has remained extremely civil. The few muckrakers who cropped up seem to have moved on and this group has maintained its respect for one another. I think we all understand the difficulty of transmitting humor or mood over a text-based medium, and want to say again how nice it is to be among people who think about what they post and aren't afraid to reread before hitting the send button. An interesting statistic is that even though we've added a number of new members, the traffic has actually subsided from the peaks of early last year. I've been trying to keep the phrase Say more. Post less. firmly in mind before committing a post to the group. Those of you who are also members of the iBob list probably know what I'm getting at here. For the newer members, it might be helpful for me to share one of the ways I think about this list - as a public house where ideas are easily shared between those who have arrived, everyone is present because they want to be, and passing through the doors means that baggage is left outside. Of course, disruptions will periodically occur, which is kind of where I have to attempt a polite correction now and again. At one point in list history, I commented publically about a general trend of topics to drift and generalize. It was interesting how many people thought they'd been the cause of my post, and in more than a few cases, I had to go back and re-read their contributions to the discussion, as most of them weren't really the ones which caused my
