[RBW] the longer trail

[Brian Hanson]

I took a longer commute on Tuesday that wound around Fremont, Magnolia and
along the waterfront in Seattle.  It was nearly devoid of commuters as we
have been enjoying a "rain week".  I figured I was adding beausage to the
new mule. BTW - didn't notice any trail issues with the impressive front
load on this 54cm Hunqapillar, but I've been often told that I'm a bit
insensitive. Here's some glamour shots:

http://flic.kr/s/aHsjzTb3Vq

Brian
Seattle, WA

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Grant was here...

[Brian Hanson]

This is a bit late, but I dug up and posted the photos I took at Grant's
book signing in Seattle last month:
http://stonehog.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/grant-was-here/.  We had a great
time hosting Grant in Seattle, and I got to catch up with a lot of folks
that had been on our local Riv Rides (Alex, Rob, Rob, Frank, Ryan...).  We
also got to meet Jan Heine, Kent Peterson, and Dan Boxer in person, so it
was quite a luminary event in the biking world :)

Brian
Seattle, WA

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: Grip King Supremes will be back soon

[William]

Need?  Need?  As the kids say:  LMFAO!

Thank you for the opportunity to describe either

A.  why these are needed so you buy neither them nor the Grip Kings, or
B.  why these are not needed so you don't buy the cages

Seriously, though.  The Grip Kings, in my opinion are the best platform 
pedals you can buy because they are so freaking long.  Front to back they 
are the biggest I've seen, but I have not searched exhaustively.  It was my 
personal experience on a long ride or on hard climbing, I felt the outer 
edge of my foot felt like it kind of wanted to roll off the pedal.  It felt 
unsupported.  I'm particularly sensitive to that *feeling* because I have 
very severely sprained my right ankle many times.  It's weak and every hint 
of rolling gives me the heebie jeebies.  I designed and built my own 
primitive cages to support my feet as well side to side as the Grip Kings 
do front to back.   I did a youtube on it.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo0YlOqqISs

I did the youtube so that if there was another person on the planet who 
felt the way I did, they could copy me and make their own for basically 
free and try them out.  When I did that, probably a dozen different folks 
emailed me that they'd buy a set if I made more.  I told my Pop about the 
demand, and he kind of ran with it.  He's a retired machinist/designer, and 
he just kind of compulsively works on stuff that get his attention.  He 
did, and those got snapped up.  I offer these not to correct a flaw, but to 
offer an option on your already magnificently versatile bike that you can 
even modify your pedals, and you might love them and by extension love your 
bike even more.  

So, I think the Grip Kings are awesome and it would be very smart for you 
to buy a set from Rivendell.  I think it's especially awesome that they are 
so modifiable.  I think MKS sneakers are the best value in pedals.  I 
personally think most BMX pedals are hideous to look at, but that is purely 
opinion.  I also think that a good way to hide ugly pedals is to cover them 
with your feet on a bike ride :-)

On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:07:10 PM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 12:45:35 PM UTC-7, William wrote: 
>>
>> My parents are coming to visit this weekend, and my Pop has indicated 
>> that he's got another batch of Grip King Supreme cages in the works.  He's 
>> more of a process engineer, so he's spending all his time on making tooling 
>> and jigs so a monkey can make cages.  Like I said before if we were paying 
>> him for time and materials I'd charge $750 a set for these.  But, he enjoys 
>> it and he is making them, so I need to either hoard them or sell them.  $25 
>> a pair shipped was the price last time and all the feedback I received on 
>> those was positive.  I do not know how many I'll have this weekend, and I 
>> will attempt to first service those that emailed me a few months back on 
>> the last batch.  Let me know if you want to be on the list. 
>>
>> Photos show what they are:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629107195978/ 
>>
>> Pedals not included ;-)
>>
>  
> Hi Bill,
>  
> Thanks for the info. I don't have grip king pedals, but can you explain 
> why your modification is needed? Was there a design flaw in the original 
> pedal that requires this modification? I was thinking of getting a pair of 
> these pedals, but if it needs this piece to make it work, 
> forgetaboutitThanks! Good Luck!
>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/-H_D20oOzOgJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: Grip King Supremes will be back soon

[Joe Bernard]

The middle area of the Grip King pedal has a slight dip to it, and feels 
kinda "empty". It doesn't bother me much, but when it came time to purchase 
new pedals for other bikes a few weeks ago, I went back to RMX. I can see 
why some would be happier with Grip Kings with the modification. 
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:07:10 PM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:

>
> On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 12:45:35 PM UTC-7, William wrote: 
>>
>> My parents are coming to visit this weekend, and my Pop has indicated 
>> that he's got another batch of Grip King Supreme cages in the works.  He's 
>> more of a process engineer, so he's spending all his time on making tooling 
>> and jigs so a monkey can make cages.  Like I said before if we were paying 
>> him for time and materials I'd charge $750 a set for these.  But, he enjoys 
>> it and he is making them, so I need to either hoard them or sell them.  $25 
>> a pair shipped was the price last time and all the feedback I received on 
>> those was positive.  I do not know how many I'll have this weekend, and I 
>> will attempt to first service those that emailed me a few months back on 
>> the last batch.  Let me know if you want to be on the list. 
>>
>> Photos show what they are:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629107195978/ 
>>
>> Pedals not included ;-)
>>
>  
> Hi Bill,
>  
> Thanks for the info. I don't have grip king pedals, but can you explain 
> why your modification is needed? Was there a design flaw in the original 
> pedal that requires this modification? I was thinking of getting a pair of 
> these pedals, but if it needs this piece to make it work, 
> forgetaboutitThanks! Good Luck!
>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/d1IZyN-vIOEJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: Grip King Supremes will be back soon

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 12:45:35 PM UTC-7, William wrote: 
>
> My parents are coming to visit this weekend, and my Pop has indicated that 
> he's got another batch of Grip King Supreme cages in the works.  He's more 
> of a process engineer, so he's spending all his time on making tooling and 
> jigs so a monkey can make cages.  Like I said before if we were paying him 
> for time and materials I'd charge $750 a set for these.  But, he enjoys it 
> and he is making them, so I need to either hoard them or sell them.  $25 a 
> pair shipped was the price last time and all the feedback I received on 
> those was positive.  I do not know how many I'll have this weekend, and I 
> will attempt to first service those that emailed me a few months back on 
> the last batch.  Let me know if you want to be on the list. 
>
> Photos show what they are:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629107195978/ 
>
> Pedals not included ;-)
>
 
Hi Bill,
 
Thanks for the info. I don't have grip king pedals, but can you explain why 
your modification is needed? Was there a design flaw in the original pedal 
that requires this modification? I was thinking of getting a pair of these 
pedals, but if it needs this piece to make it work, 
forgetaboutitThanks! Good Luck!

>
> Bill
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/XbqdMFg9u3MJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Grip King Supremes will be back soon

[William]

My parents are coming to visit this weekend, and my Pop has indicated that 
he's got another batch of Grip King Supreme cages in the works.  He's more 
of a process engineer, so he's spending all his time on making tooling and 
jigs so a monkey can make cages.  Like I said before if we were paying him 
for time and materials I'd charge $750 a set for these.  But, he enjoys it 
and he is making them, so I need to either hoard them or sell them.  $25 a 
pair shipped was the price last time and all the feedback I received on 
those was positive.  I do not know how many I'll have this weekend, and I 
will attempt to first service those that emailed me a few months back on 
the last batch.  Let me know if you want to be on the list.

Photos show what they are:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629107195978/ 

Pedals not included ;-)

Bill

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/u65KT0l51AsJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

[William]

Greg J, you've described it perfectly.  This is exactly my experience with 
my low trail (Rawland) and my high trail Rivs.  I like them all alot, both 
with and without heavy front loads.  I've never had a rear load on my low 
trail bike so I can't compare that.  They are decidedly different but 
equally great and confidence inspiring to me.  

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 5:40:08 PM UTC-7, Greg J wrote:
>
> Rene,
>
> Thanks for your write up.  Very interesting.  I have some thoughts about 
> the low-trail issue, FWIW.  
>
> I definitely noticed a difference in handling between the low trail bike 
> (a Toei I had for a while) and a Riv, which I assume may be attributable to 
> the difference in trail.  The hard part is describing the difference in 
> feel, and I thought I'd do my part to muddy the waters even more.  You say, 
> "where before I had to "drive" the bike, especially around turns, now all I 
> have to do is think of where I want to go and the bike just responds 
> effortlessly."  That's funny, because I would have described it the 
> opposite way.  In my experience, the low trail bike will go exactly where 
> you point the handlebar and will respond to small changes in your input.  A 
> positive way to describe this would be it's "responsive to steering 
> input."  A negative description would be, it requires you to always be 
> controlling the bike.  The high trail bike is more stable, in that once you 
> set a course in a turn, it will keep to its natural arc. Positively, it's 
> "on rails," and negatively, it resists or fights your input.  I think the 
> term "automatic" can be applied to both, and mean different thing, and that 
> may be where some confusion arises.  Low trail is automatic in that it 
> tracks more closely your steering input--it does what you're perhaps 
> subconsciously doing to the bike.  High trail is automatic in that it (esp 
> in turns) has its own arc that it will default to once you initiate the 
> turn and it resists efforts to alter that course.  Does this make sense?
>
> Anyways, as most will agree, it's not a life-changing experience, and 
> plenty of people (myself included) have toured on high-trail bikes with a 
> front bag and survived.  But it's a significant enough difference, and I'm 
> glad you embarked on your adventures.
>
> Greg
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/X3HjTElYFkYJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: My 650B conversion progress report

[Zack]

Beautiful!


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/_mPfK2dPc20J.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

[Robert Barr]

René,

Your experiment is remarkable. As a scientist I admire your desire to
experiment and learn, It also prompts me to write my first ever response to
the Group. I have lurked in the background vicariously enjoying passionate
debates about front bags vs rear bags, clips vs open petals, light
responsive tires vs heavy stout "German" tires... you get the point. I
enjoy the discussions and the passion. I have learned a great deal. Your
involved experiment makes me ask why? The analogy is strained, but if I
wanted my Subaru to handle like a Porsche, I could try to modify my Subaru
to handle like a Porsche, or get a Porsche. In your first sentence you
mention my  two favorite (living) sources of bike wisdom. I admire and
respect both, as it seems you do. The Riv cachet is powerful, but it
doesn't suit all, nor does it try. At some point you might want to say "I
like Riv bikes, but prefer the handling of...". As for me, I prefer my
Subaru. Best of luck in your search.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:37 PM, René Sterental  wrote:

> Disclaimer:
>
> This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't mean
> to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. Grant
> philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its initial
> results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another
> point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted,
> either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic
> it usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to
> do on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the
> exchange of information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand
> proudly by their bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way
> an attempt to challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.
>
> Ok, here I go...
>
> For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no particular order,
> as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any loads (especially
> my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front loads
> and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of which
> magnify the tendency of the front steering to pull  and require
> overcorrection when turning, as well as the interesting and very educating
> online discussions and articles on bike geometry and fork geometry and its
> effects on the handling characteristics of a bike, I decided to try it to
> see for myself what the whole low trail geometry claims were about.
>  I wasn't able or willing to go buy a new bike just to experiment, and
> even if I did, there would be no way I could tell what the low trail fork
> would do to the handling of my Rivendell bikes which, aside from the
> nuances/issues stated above, I love. And yes, while I could
> certainly adjust to all of these quirks, I just didn't like having them on
> my bikes. The obvious solution recommended by some people on this group in
> addition to several articles online pointed me to Tom Matchak in the East
> Coast who had already built low trail forks for other Rivendell bikes. Tom
> seemed to have a great reputation as a builder and immediately knew what
> this was all about when I contacted him. Due to the long lead time to have
> the low trail fork built for my Atlantis as was my original intention plus
> a few additional considerations that came up as part of this process, like
> the need to have the Atlantis repainted and why not, the Hunqapillar as
> well (never did like that gray color much), I decided to take the risk of
> ordering two low trail forks for both the Atlantis and the Hunqapillar as
> these are the bikes I mainly ride loaded.
>
> I asked Jan Heine for his low trail recommendation as well as Tom Matchak
> and they both came out with the same number: 40mm of trail, which requires
> a rake of 70mm for 40/50 mm tires. On the Hunqapillar, the same 70mm rake
> comes out to 42mm of trail. For comparison, the standard Rivendell fork for
> the Atlantis has 45mm rake/65mm trail and the standard Hunqapillar fork has
> 50mm rake/63mm trail. I had to send several detailed measurements to Tom
> Matchak so he could preserve the crown race to axle distances on both
> bikes. He also specked cable guides for my dynamo lights as well as fender
> attachments so I no longer need to fiddle with the darumas to mount the
> front fenders and can screw in the fender directly to the underside of the
> crown. Additionally, the fork for the Hunqapillar was spec'd with a Pacenti
> MTB bi-plate crown to run the 50mm tires with 60 mm fenders and the fork
> for the Altantis with a Long Shen A16 crown to be used with 40mm tires and
> 50 mm fenders. Regretfully but understandably so, I got a negative response
> to my inquire at RBW on whether I could buy a pair of Rivendell crowns for
> this project, so while none of these crowns is as beautiful as the original
> Riv crowns, they're sort of Rivish, especially 

[RBW] Re: Rivendell Rally Bay Area Edition.

[William]

Manny

My folks are coming into town, so I'm out.  That said, I think you could do 
a hiker/biker site at Samuel P Taylor Saturday night, since you are now a 
pro at getting to and from there safely from the GG Bridge

Bill

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 9:34:10 PM UTC-7, Manuel Acosta wrote:
>
> I hear by open up the table for the first annual (hopefully) Rivendell 
> Rally Bay Area Edition. I know it's kind of late but with school just 
> ending this was the last thing that crossed my mind. But I digress, 
> Mr.Grant PetersEn is book signing/reading near the Warming Hut under the 
> Golden Gate Bridge. The signing/reading starts around 1pm. I'm opened for 
> anything S240 Saturday>Sunday, bike ride before or after? We can't have all 
> the MidWest coast guys have all the fun! Lets hope we can get a good turn 
> out since this is a hop and skip from Rivendell HQ.
> -Manny 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/k2H1-YUkIMwJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: Rivendell Rally Bay Area Edition.

[Jim M.]

Sounds good. I should be able to make it for a ride afterward, unless I'm 
forgetting something that my better half will remind me of. I'm envisioning 
some mixed terrain over the bridge, or maybe an urban explore in SF?

On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 8:36:03 AM UTC-7, Adam wrote:
>
>
> I'm up for a ride after the reading. 
>
> Cheers, 
> Adam 
>
>
> On Jun 5, 9:34 pm, Manuel Acosta  wrote: 
> > I hear by open up the table for the first annual (hopefully) Rivendell 
> > Rally Bay Area Edition. I know it's kind of late but with school just 
> > ending this was the last thing that crossed my mind. But I digress, 
> > Mr.Grant PetersEn is book signing/reading near the Warming Hut under the 
> > Golden Gate Bridge. The signing/reading starts around 1pm. I'm opened 
> for 
> > anything S240 Saturday>Sunday, bike ride before or after? We can't have 
> all 
> > the MidWest coast guys have all the fun! Lets hope we can get a good 
> turn 
> > out since this is a hop and skip from Rivendell HQ. 
> > -Manny

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/AhN5pD79oV4J.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: My 650B conversion progress report

[William]

I had tried to attach a photo, but don't know if it worked.  Here's a link 
at any rate:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/7345511078/in/photostream 

Riv content:  
Newbaums grey cloth tape
Hemp twine
Grip King Pedals
P45 plastic fenders
Sackville flaps F+R
Grant's target of 260mm being a good minimum for BB height in a conversion

On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:56:18 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
>  That's a fine-looking bike, Bill.
>
>  --
> *From:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *William
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 06, 2012 12:54 PM
> *To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [RBW] Re: My 650B conversion progress report
>
>  The missing bits were the rear fender and the front wheel.  I knocked 
> both those projects out last night.  So, short of doing the tubeless thing, 
> it's done.   
>
>  
> 
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 6:57:30 AM UTC-7, C.J. Filip wrote: 
>>
>> Awesome job.  Your bike looks so much better and useful with higher 
>> volume tires.  Very Riv-ish indeed. 
>>
>>   -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/89D9BW0ikJ8J.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> --
>  
> 
>
> To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you 
> that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice 
> contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and 
> cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under 
> the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions 
> or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any 
> tax-related matters addressed herein.
> 
> 
>
> This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
> addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or 
> confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this 
> email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
> copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. 
> If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 
> 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any 
> email) and any printout thereof.
>
> Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their 
> professional qualifications will be provided upon request.
> 
> ==
>  
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/SRTg9FdzNnwJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

RE: [RBW] Re: My 650B conversion progress report

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

That's a fine-looking bike, Bill.


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 12:54 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: My 650B conversion progress report

The missing bits were the rear fender and the front wheel.  I knocked both 
those projects out last night.  So, short of doing the tubeless thing, it's 
done.


[https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sp3G3QsxIZc/T8-K-lFH8mI/Ais/9sa0VhokxG8/s320/IMG_0856.JPG]


On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 6:57:30 AM UTC-7, C.J. Filip wrote:
Awesome job.  Your bike looks so much better and useful with higher
volume tires.  Very Riv-ish indeed.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/89D9BW0ikJ8J.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--


To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you that, 
unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice contained in this 
message was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the 
purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal Revenue Code 
or applicable state or local tax law provisions or (ii) promoting, marketing or 
recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.



This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the 
addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or 
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, 
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this 
email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. If you receive this 
email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 735-3000 and permanently 
delete the original email (and any copy of any email) and any printout thereof.

Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their 
professional qualifications will be provided upon request.

==

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: My 650B conversion progress report

[William]

The missing bits were the rear fender and the front wheel.  I knocked both 
those projects out last night.  So, short of doing the tubeless thing, it's 
done.  




On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 6:57:30 AM UTC-7, C.J. Filip wrote:
>
> Awesome job.  Your bike looks so much better and useful with higher 
> volume tires.  Very Riv-ish indeed. 
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/89D9BW0ikJ8J.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: Rivendell Rally Bay Area Edition.

[Adam]

I'm up for a ride after the reading.

Cheers,
Adam


On Jun 5, 9:34 pm, Manuel Acosta  wrote:
> I hear by open up the table for the first annual (hopefully) Rivendell
> Rally Bay Area Edition. I know it's kind of late but with school just
> ending this was the last thing that crossed my mind. But I digress,
> Mr.Grant PetersEn is book signing/reading near the Warming Hut under the
> Golden Gate Bridge. The signing/reading starts around 1pm. I'm opened for
> anything S240 Saturday>Sunday, bike ride before or after? We can't have all
> the MidWest coast guys have all the fun! Lets hope we can get a good turn
> out since this is a hop and skip from Rivendell HQ.
> -Manny

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: Rivendell Rally Bay Area Edition.

[Jamie]

http://www.parksconservancy.org/events/retail/meet-the-author-grant.html 

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 10:24:39 PM UTC-7, grant wrote:
>
> Hey Manny, 
> Send me a link or something to ... your source of info. My schedule 
> mentions something at the Park, but doesn't say any more---no time, no 
> agenda or anything. I'll be where I gotta when I hafta...no 
> problem...but tell me what you know. PM is fine. 
>
> On Jun 5, 9:34 pm, Manuel Acosta  wrote: 
> > I hear by open up the table for the first annual (hopefully) Rivendell 
> > Rally Bay Area Edition. I know it's kind of late but with school just 
> > ending this was the last thing that crossed my mind. But I digress, 
> > Mr.Grant PetersEn is book signing/reading near the Warming Hut under the 
> > Golden Gate Bridge. The signing/reading starts around 1pm. I'm opened 
> for 
> > anything S240 Saturday>Sunday, bike ride before or after? We can't have 
> all 
> > the MidWest coast guys have all the fun! Lets hope we can get a good 
> turn 
> > out since this is a hop and skip from Rivendell HQ. 
> > -Manny

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/df142HzoaN8J.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

[Mojo]

Ha! DougP finally has come out of the low-trail closet! Thanks Rene
for your thoughtful review.

I too went low trail on my load carrying bike, in my case a Surly LHT
with a 72 degree head angle. Tom Matchak built a fork with 68mm of
rake compared to the original 45mm. That is nearly an inch of extra
rake. With 1.5inch tires, trail went from mid 60s to low 40s. Nothing
else changed in my experiment.

I found the new steering to be only subtly different, subtle but
distinct. As others have said, less wheel flop makes the bike handle
heavier front loads with more stability. The LHT does have a tendency
towards a light shimmy now that wasn't there before. It is easily
controled with a kneee against the top tube.  I put a 28mm tire on
this bike and did not like its handling at all, that felt very
skittish and unstable. Descending was different but not necessarily
better. Low trail was more responsive at speed but high trail feels
more stable. I don't think I descend faster with either setup.

So my impressions are both high and low trail handling have their
strengths and weaknesses. Low trail requires a larger tire and handles
front end loads well. High trail is quite fun with skinny (I use
27-33mm tires) and only a light front load or no front load. I just
carry stuff on them differently. That said, my 26inch AllRounder seems
to carry a moderate front load without any compaints. And I often
commute on my Quickbeam, a short flattish ride, with 5-15lbs in the
front basket with no bother.

I am glad I changed the LHT. It had an ugly dog-leg fork before and
the new handling is an improvement. I have no desire to change my
Rivendells. They ride wonderfully.

On Jun 5, 4:41 pm, dougP  wrote:
> Rene:
>
> You are indeed brave to post about your experiment, and I hope
> everyone else reviews it thoughtfully.
>
> Something we all need to keep in mind is that as brilliant a designer
> as Grant is, every bike is the sum of a large number of compromises.
> The fewer the compromises, the more specialized and hence less
> versatile a bike is.  For me, one of the major attractions of
> Rivendell is the versatility of my Atlantis.  There just isn't any
> ride I would hesitate to do because "my bike can't do that".
>
> This confidence building versatility has also led me to a lot of "why
> not?" adventures in loading, and I'm probably not alone here.  It
> would be impossible to design a single bike that would be equally
> competent handling all the possible combinations of front, rear, high,
> & low loading.  Rivendell, IMHO, does it better than most, probably
> because they actually think about it, load their bikes & go banging
> about the hills in the real world.
>
> I took delivery of my Atlantis in early 03, and it's my go-to bike for
> everything.  Over the years, I came to prefer having my basic, daily
> stuff in a front bag, first a Riv Hobo, then an Acorn Boxy Rando
> (holds more).  It seemed that with the front bag fairly well stuffed,
> the bike had a bit of a wander when climbing at low speed, nothing as
> you describe but an irritating tendency to want to go somewhere else.
> I always dismissed it as the load and my inattentiveness.  Stumbling
> into some low trail discussion or article, it seemed like maybe there
> was room for improvement, at least to my tastes.
>
> When touring with a load, the bike was a bit dodgy with everything on
> the rear, the problem being an infrequent but unpredictable shimmy.
> Spreading the weight around among 4 bags restored stability.  Since my
> lodging load is 2 bags, on-tour ezperiments with them front vs rear
> showed front to be a more stable location.  However, the previously
> mentioned "wandering" was more annoying with all the weight up
> front.
>
> Tom Matchak also came to my attention courtesy another list member,
> and built the same fork for me.  Since my issue was not as dramatic as
> yours, I was only hoping to get the same stability with a front load
> that the bike had with no load.  The result meets expectations.  The
> 40 mm trail is not a relgious experience but a rather subtle change
> that solved my personal problem without disturbing anything else about
> the bike.
>
> Note that I did not leap into this without a good deal of second
> guessing and self-argument.  The Atlantis is a great bike and I did
> not want to screw it up.  Fortunately, the results justified the
> deliberations.  It would not surprise me if another Riv owner rode my
> bike & hated it.  It just works for my & my quirky habits.
>
> Side bar re: shimmy.  If you get shimmy, don't assume the 40 mm trail
> is the cure.  On a recent S24O (2 bagger) I rode with the bags in
> front on the way out and the rear on the return.  On a straight,
> level, smooth bike trail at perhaps 12 mph, I got a nasty shimmy when
> I had to stop quickly, with the load in the rear.  After that, all the
> way home, I tried to induce it again with no success.  The typical
> "tail wag when standing" is still there.  I'v

[RBW] Re: My 650B conversion progress report

[C.J. Filip]

Awesome job.  Your bike looks so much better and useful with higher
volume tires.  Very Riv-ish indeed.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: Riv Rally Midwest

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

It's a shame that nobody captured the high drama of the water crossings on film 
or pixels. I guess we'll have to go back there soon.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/1S4PSsYZtYsJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: Riv Rally Midwest

[Eric Platt]

Realized while heading home on Sunday (and it was brought home by looking
at Jim's photos) that no one photographed the water crossings.  The Rustic
Road we took in Wisconsin had four of 'em.  No one crashed or got overly
wet, although we came close on one.  Still, it's something you don't see
every day.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <
thill@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to everybody who joined this event! Here's my synopsis of events,
> in mostly photo-format.
>
> http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/2012/06/photos-from-rivendell-rally-of-2012.html
>
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

[Philip Williamson]

Thanks for the write-up on the low trail fork! I've had a Riv-trail 
Quickbeam since 2004, and a low-trail Ross since 1999 (I didn't know it was 
low-trail until about 2006), and find them both great-riding bikes. I would 
describe the steering response opposite to yours, though - the Quickbeam 
seems to steer best by pointing my hips, and the Ross seems to steer best 
by pointing the bars. I like them both, and I'm confident in putting a 
front load on either. Riding one and then immediately riding the other, 
there's a momentary dislocation, where the steering input almost seems 
opposite, and then by the time I turn into the street, everything is fine 
again. They're both fixed gears, which (in my experience) doesn't allow as 
fine a reading of handling as a coastable bike. 
Again, thanks for the excellent post on your motivation and your experience 
in getting the new forks built. I'm impressed.

 Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com


On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 1:37:57 PM UTC-7, René wrote:
>
> Disclaimer:
>  
> This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't mean 
> to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. Grant 
> philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its initial 
> results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another 
> point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted, 
> either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic 
> it usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to 
> do on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the 
> exchange of information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand 
> proudly by their bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way 
> an attempt to challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.
>  
> Ok, here I go...
>  
> For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no particular order, 
> as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any loads (especially 
> my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front loads 
> and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of which 
> magnify the tendency of the front steering to pull  and require 
> overcorrection when turning, as well as the interesting and very educating 
> online discussions and articles on bike geometry and fork geometry and its 
> effects on the handling characteristics of a bike, I decided to try it to 
> see for myself what the whole low trail geometry claims were about.
>  I wasn't able or willing to go buy a new bike just to experiment, and 
> even if I did, there would be no way I could tell what the low trail fork 
> would do to the handling of my Rivendell bikes which, aside from the 
> nuances/issues stated above, I love. And yes, while I could 
> certainly adjust to all of these quirks, I just didn't like having them on 
> my bikes. The obvious solution recommended by some people on this group in 
> addition to several articles online pointed me to Tom Matchak in the East 
> Coast who had already built low trail forks for other Rivendell bikes. Tom 
> seemed to have a great reputation as a builder and immediately knew what 
> this was all about when I contacted him. Due to the long lead time to have 
> the low trail fork built for my Atlantis as was my original intention plus 
> a few additional considerations that came up as part of this process, like 
> the need to have the Atlantis repainted and why not, the Hunqapillar as 
> well (never did like that gray color much), I decided to take the risk of 
> ordering two low trail forks for both the Atlantis and the Hunqapillar as 
> these are the bikes I mainly ride loaded.
>  
> I asked Jan Heine for his low trail recommendation as well as Tom Matchak 
> and they both came out with the same number: 40mm of trail, which requires 
> a rake of 70mm for 40/50 mm tires. On the Hunqapillar, the same 70mm rake 
> comes out to 42mm of trail. For comparison, the standard Rivendell fork for 
> the Atlantis has 45mm rake/65mm trail and the standard Hunqapillar fork has 
> 50mm rake/63mm trail. I had to send several detailed measurements to Tom 
> Matchak so he could preserve the crown race to axle distances on both 
> bikes. He also specked cable guides for my dynamo lights as well as fender 
> attachments so I no longer need to fiddle with the darumas to mount the 
> front fenders and can screw in the fender directly to the underside of the 
> crown. Additionally, the fork for the Hunqapillar was spec'd with a Pacenti 
> MTB bi-plate crown to run the 50mm tires with 60 mm fenders and the fork 
> for the Altantis with a Long Shen A16 crown to be used with 40mm tires and 
> 50 mm fenders. Regretfully but understandably so, I got a negative response 
> to my inquire at RBW on whether I could buy a pair of Rivendell crowns for 
> this project, so while none of these crowns is as beautiful as the original 
> Riv cro