Re: [RBW] How can I improve the rear-loaded handling of my new Sam Hill?
Thanks for all the advice, suggestions and encouragement. I do find it hard to believe that a Riv bike would have inferior handling, based on the other 3 I've owned. I will try moving weight for'ard and see what happens. Saddle: I've got the saddle where I like it, about 3 to 31/2 behind the bb. I just moved it forward a tiny bit yesterday, this for sake of postion, not weight distribution. I do like a butt-back position, so this may put too much weight in the rear. To answer Bill's question: I noticed the light front end when I first rode the bike unladen; this at normal cruising speeds on straight flats; and this evaluation judged in comparison to my other two custom Rivs and my Motobecane, which have shorter and lower cockpits; somewhat like the feel of my Monocog when I ride on the tops; the Monocog also having a much longer and higher cockpit than my 2 customs and the Motobecane, but probably moderated by the huge and ponderous tires and rims. But back to Bill's question: the Sam feels light unladen, especially on the flats -- sign again of the effect of rear weight bias. When laden as yesterday, it felt no different on flat and straight routes at cruising speed: the same slight tendency to wander. It was on the fast downhill sweeper that I noticed the sketchiness of the handling -- too brief to analyze, but IIRC, a hesitation and then a sudden small flop in turning. But it was worst at slow speed up a quite steep hill which combined said rear load, the efffect of the steep inclination, and my own body position for the climbing effort, that is, weight back and upright posture. All of this indicates moving weight forward might help -- again, starting with proper rear pannier setup and some weight in the Ostrich. Thanks to all for helping me think this through. Very, very odd how my old Fuji Royale handled like a pig -- front end wandering around like an excited dog let out for a walk when I had weight in the Nitto Boxy Bag, but sweetly stable and demurely controllable with a heavy load in rear panniers. The SH may be just the opposite. Interesting. The rack is a (at least to judge by its much lighter and very stiff cousin, the Fly) a stiff Tubus Logo, but the bags are not the Ortliebs that I intend to use, but a pair of Axiom grocery panniers borrowed temporarily off the Motobecane and sitting further back than they need to be. I shall install and load the Ortliebs as my next step, then after that add 5+ lb to the Ostrich front bag. Perhaps low riders are in order. On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Bill Gibson bill.bgib...@gmail.comwrote: Methodically move weight from back to front, if possible try a low rider front, even overloading the front to see what the matter is. Keep light stuff that you need handy in the handlebar bag. I try to keep all loads between the axles and low, so long as it doesn't interfere with pedaling, etc. Analysis: How does speed change it? Is it worse at low speed? Does it go away at higher speed, or do high speed corrections go too far, or seem sluggish? Is it - the flop- more of a low speed lunging left to right when the front bag is heavily loaded? Flop has a technical meaning beyond what the front feels like in some literature... but the easy thing is to change the way the bike is loaded. I'm sure all loads are well secured. I usually adapt to a bike's idiosyncrasies after a few rides... we ride the bike, not the other way round, mostly. On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 3:56 PM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.comwrote: Disappointment. I've owned 3 Riv customs, designed for fast road riding, and all, particularly the second two, have been magnificent in fit, feel and handling, even with rear loads. So I was hugely disappointed to take my SH out for a quick 20 mile shakedown ride with 35 lb or so in the rear (An Ostrich in the front, but lightly loaded). Too much front end vagueness: fast downhill sweeper was uneasy-making, and, coming back up sitting at 5-6 mph, the front end wandered all over the place. I have the bars about even with the plane between rump and nose of saddle; don't want them higher. Riv build, so Jack Browns; stiff Tubus Logo rack. The panniers were not optimal, having been borrowed from my (better handling under rear load, actually) '73 Motobecane flexy 531 racing bike and sitting a bit further back than they need to be. But what can I do to reduce the front end flop? New fork? New bike? -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at
[RBW] How can I improve the rear-loaded handling of my new Sam Hill?
Disappointment. I've owned 3 Riv customs, designed for fast road riding, and all, particularly the second two, have been magnificent in fit, feel and handling, even with rear loads. So I was hugely disappointed to take my SH out for a quick 20 mile shakedown ride with 35 lb or so in the rear (An Ostrich in the front, but lightly loaded). Too much front end vagueness: fast downhill sweeper was uneasy-making, and, coming back up sitting at 5-6 mph, the front end wandered all over the place. I have the bars about even with the plane between rump and nose of saddle; don't want them higher. Riv build, so Jack Browns; stiff Tubus Logo rack. The panniers were not optimal, having been borrowed from my (better handling under rear load, actually) '73 Motobecane flexy 531 racing bike and sitting a bit further back than they need to be. But what can I do to reduce the front end flop? New fork? New bike? -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] How can I improve the rear-loaded handling of my new Sam Hill?
Patrick, I'm at a loss why your Hillborne is behaving that way. My experience is exactly the opposite; after many many miles touring on my Expedition (which I still love) my Hillborne in comparison is rock solid with a loaded rear rack, and is one of the easiest bikes to noodle up a steep slope. Mine is a 52cm frame, Tubus Vega rear rack and some ancient REI large panniers I've been using for years. Could it be my frame uses 650B wheels? I tour with cheap Col de la Vies, but run Hetres around town. The Hetres do make a difference speed wise and though it's not exactly like hurling along on my Heron with skinny tires, I don't find a problem pushing along at 18-20mph on my morning runs. My drop bars (Nitto Noodle) are ever-so-slightly below saddle height and although the front end is lighter feeling with a full camping load on the back I do not experience the front-end vagueness you're experiencing. I'm not downplaying your experience, I'm just not sure what's causing it. I hope someone else might shed a light. Phil Roberts Chandler, AZ On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 3:56 PM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Disappointment. I've owned 3 Riv customs, designed for fast road riding, and all, particularly the second two, have been magnificent in fit, feel and handling, even with rear loads. So I was hugely disappointed to take my SH out for a quick 20 mile shakedown ride with 35 lb or so in the rear (An Ostrich in the front, but lightly loaded). Too much front end vagueness: fast downhill sweeper was uneasy-making, and, coming back up sitting at 5-6 mph, the front end wandered all over the place. I have the bars about even with the plane between rump and nose of saddle; don't want them higher. Riv build, so Jack Browns; stiff Tubus Logo rack. The panniers were not optimal, having been borrowed from my (better handling under rear load, actually) '73 Motobecane flexy 531 racing bike and sitting a bit further back than they need to be. But what can I do to reduce the front end flop? New fork? New bike? -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] How can I improve the rear-loaded handling of my new Sam Hill?
Hmmm... - I'd take a look at the fore/aft saddle placement with respect to the bb. - I might drop the bars slightly - IIRC, don't your other bikes have bars 1-2 below the saddle? Both those steps could shift just a bit more weight onto the front end. The technique which always worked for me while climbing is to pull down with my elbows. It's an mtb trick which helped to get up steepy-steep bits without popping wheelies. It would be interesting to see what happened if you took about 5-7 lb's out of the rear and put them up front. When you say the panniers were not optimal, how so? Do they tend to hold the weight more rearward? More weight behind the rear axle will tend to act as a lever. If you are comparing the loaded handling to the flexy 531 bike, you might want to give it a few rides before changing much. It might be less of a correction than you think right now. hope that helps a bit, - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes The Gallery needs your photos! Send 'em in - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines She edged in to get a better look at the bike, how it was made, the intricacy of its brakes and shifters pulling her straight in. Beauty. -- William Gibson, Virtual Light -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] How can I improve the rear-loaded handling of my new Sam Hill?
Methodically move weight from back to front, if possible try a low rider front, even overloading the front to see what the matter is. Keep light stuff that you need handy in the handlebar bag. I try to keep all loads between the axles and low, so long as it doesn't interfere with pedaling, etc. Analysis: How does speed change it? Is it worse at low speed? Does it go away at higher speed, or do high speed corrections go too far, or seem sluggish? Is it - the flop- more of a low speed lunging left to right when the front bag is heavily loaded? Flop has a technical meaning beyond what the front feels like in some literature... but the easy thing is to change the way the bike is loaded. I'm sure all loads are well secured. I usually adapt to a bike's idiosyncrasies after a few rides... we ride the bike, not the other way round, mostly. On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 3:56 PM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Disappointment. I've owned 3 Riv customs, designed for fast road riding, and all, particularly the second two, have been magnificent in fit, feel and handling, even with rear loads. So I was hugely disappointed to take my SH out for a quick 20 mile shakedown ride with 35 lb or so in the rear (An Ostrich in the front, but lightly loaded). Too much front end vagueness: fast downhill sweeper was uneasy-making, and, coming back up sitting at 5-6 mph, the front end wandered all over the place. I have the bars about even with the plane between rump and nose of saddle; don't want them higher. Riv build, so Jack Browns; stiff Tubus Logo rack. The panniers were not optimal, having been borrowed from my (better handling under rear load, actually) '73 Motobecane flexy 531 racing bike and sitting a bit further back than they need to be. But what can I do to reduce the front end flop? New fork? New bike? -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Bill Gibson Tempe, Arizona, USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
