Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[Andrew Scherer]

I hear variants of "plush" used when folks discuss steel and particularly 
531 but I'm not sure what to make of it. I have 6 bikes with 531 frames and 
I ride them all: 1970 Raleigh Pro Mk I, a Falcon San Remo of undetermined 
age but likely 1969-1971, a 1971 Raleigh International, a 1972 PX-10, a 
1972 Paramount, and a 1987 531c Mercian Professional. Sizes are 62-63cm for 
reference, and most of them run Compass or similar Panaracer tires. Each 
has different characteristics related to how the bike responds to steering 
effort delivered at the front end or through shifting weight/center of 
gravity, and a general sense of what I'll call rigidity. Perhaps it's 
because they're all the same base material, but I wonder if geometry, 
wheelbase, and tires makes more of a difference than materials. They all 
feel "comfortable" but the range is significant. The PX10 and the Falcon 
have a strong self-centering steering feel and the PX10 requires more 
effort to change direction. I'd say "steady and predictable". At the other 
end of the spectrum the Mercian has criterium geometry and feels very 
light, the steering is super responsive and at the same time the whole bike 
feels more solid/rigid than the others. I didn't like riding it on 
rough/urban roads until I changed the tires from 23c Michelin Pros to 28c 
(that barely fit) Soma Supple VItesse. The Raleigh Pro and International 
fall somewhere towards the PX10 to different degrees, and the Paramount 
seems to be smack in the middle. FWIW I've had the Mercian since it was new 
and if I could only keep one, that would be it. 

Anecdotally, the International was the first of the above I added to the 
fleet some 7 years ago after a friend convinced me to buy the frame. I 
built it to more or less the catalog spec and took a first ride with him. 
As we came up to a small pothole on a descent I used my Mercian reflexes to 
shift the bike around it and ended up sailing right through it...not enough 
"oomph" for that setup!

Andy
On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 8:08:22 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:

> How about a plush NEW 531 frame - my Pashley Guv'nor 3 speed (shifter 
> mounted on seatpost). I need to measure the frame angles on this. I have 
> switched to a Sturmey Archer Dyno-Hub w/90mm drum brake from the standard 
> front 70mm drum brake since this picture was taken.
>
> [image: IMG_1535s.jpg]
>
> Laing
>
> On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 7:27:38 AM UTC-4 wboe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> This thread makes me appreciate my vintage 531 bike all the more.  It's a 
>> Raleigh Lenton Gran Prix from the 60s.  Shod with Barlow Pass, it truly 
>> floats over everything.  Set up as a simple 3-speed path racer, it reduces 
>> the riding experience to simple moving along.  I've been thinking about 
>> having a low-rider single-sided rack made to fit the lamp bracket and 
>> fender boss but have not gotten around to it.
>>
>> [image: 20230131_155539 (1).jpg]
>>
>> On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 7:39:33 PM UTC-4 mr.wa...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Patrick was correct on the bracket on the fork of the Jack Taylor. That 
>>> was the bracket for the headlamp. The fitting on the top of the stem is an 
>>> integral center-pull brake cable hanger and adjuster. I had it set up with 
>>> some long reach Mafac brakes and it worked beautifully. Here's a close-up. 
>>> The rear brake hanger was nicely done as well.
>>>
>>> [image: DSCF9308.jpeg][image: DSCF9310.jpeg]
>>> [image: DSCF9311.jpeg]
>>>
>>> On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 3:57:49 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>>>
 [image: P1011691.JPG]




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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[Jamie Hascall]

Patrick was correct on the bracket on the fork of the Jack Taylor. That was 
the bracket for the headlamp. The fitting on the top of the stem is an 
integral center-pull brake cable hanger and adjuster. I had it set up with 
some long reach Mafac brakes and it worked beautifully. Here's a close-up. 
The rear brake hanger was nicely done as well.

[image: DSCF9308.jpeg][image: DSCF9310.jpeg]
[image: DSCF9311.jpeg]

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 3:57:49 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

> [image: P1011691.JPG]
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[Ryan]

Lovely understated frame. I take it that the braze-on on the fork is for a 
generator. But I can't figure out what's up with the braze-on and bolt in 
the middle of that coppery stem. What is it for?

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 11:03:19 AM UTC-5 mr.wa...@gmail.com wrote:

> My first "real" bike after my two-speed Schwinn Typhoon was a Frejus I 
> bought at Robert's Cyclery in Chicago. It was the first bike I'd ever 
> ridden that felt alive. I rode that all through high school and college. 
> Years later I picked up a nicely restored '63 Jack Taylor Super 
> International frame from a shop in Portland. It was my first 531 frame and 
> I built it up to ride with a batch of Ultegra parts that I had. It was the 
> fastest bike I've ever ridden. I don't know if that's objectively true, but 
> it had a feel like nothing I've ever been on. Sadly, the short Jack Taylor 
> brazed stem and the long top tube made the riding position too stretched 
> out for my aging body to ride the long distances I'd planned on and it got 
> relegated to short rides and eventually taken out of use. It hangs in the 
> corner of my shop and needs a new home.
>
> [image: DSCF9306.jpeg]
> [image: DSCF9314.jpeg]
>
> On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 12:33:33 PM UTC-7 JohnS wrote:
>
>> Thank you Eric,
>>
>> JohnS
>>
>> On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 11:14:27 AM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>>
>>> The mount I added to the Singer is this one:
>>>
>>> [image: 
>>> 3198yXsC3ML._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingTHREEANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA321,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg]
>>>
>>> Elite 0123301 VIP Cage Clamps Water Bottle Cage, 25mm-70mm, Black 
>>> 
>>> amazon.com 
>>> 
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> It’s been solid and dependable. The device adds mounting points—you 
>>> provide the bottle cage.
>>>
>>> --Eric Norris
>>> campyo...@me.com
>>> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
>>> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 
>>>
>>> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:16 AM, JohnS  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Eric N,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the close up of your bike. Because of it I noticed the 
>>> clamped on water bottle cage on the seat tube. Do you like? Which brand is 
>>> it? I would like to add a water bottle cage to my '82 Sequoia's down tube 
>>> (Tange Special Series Touring, Cro-Mo Double Butted), great riding bike, so 
>>> much more lively than my Surly Pacer.
>>>
>>> JohnS
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57:10 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>>>
 For the tubing nerds out there: the 531 Professional decal (in French) 
 on my 1983 Alex Singer. 

 [image: image0.jpeg][image: image1.jpeg]

 –Eric N


 On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:53 PM, brendonoid  wrote:

 

 My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition 
 tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling 
 that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.
 I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm 
 not on a Riv. Definitely a special frame.



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>>> 

Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[Jamie Hascall]

My first "real" bike after my two-speed Schwinn Typhoon was a Frejus I 
bought at Robert's Cyclery in Chicago. It was the first bike I'd ever 
ridden that felt alive. I rode that all through high school and college. 
Years later I picked up a nicely restored '63 Jack Taylor Super 
International frame from a shop in Portland. It was my first 531 frame and 
I built it up to ride with a batch of Ultegra parts that I had. It was the 
fastest bike I've ever ridden. I don't know if that's objectively true, but 
it had a feel like nothing I've ever been on. Sadly, the short Jack Taylor 
brazed stem and the long top tube made the riding position too stretched 
out for my aging body to ride the long distances I'd planned on and it got 
relegated to short rides and eventually taken out of use. It hangs in the 
corner of my shop and needs a new home.

[image: DSCF9306.jpeg]
[image: DSCF9314.jpeg]

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 12:33:33 PM UTC-7 JohnS wrote:

> Thank you Eric,
>
> JohnS
>
> On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 11:14:27 AM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>
>> The mount I added to the Singer is this one:
>>
>> [image: 
>> 3198yXsC3ML._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingTHREEANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA321,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg]
>>
>> Elite 0123301 VIP Cage Clamps Water Bottle Cage, 25mm-70mm, Black 
>> 
>> amazon.com 
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>> It’s been solid and dependable. The device adds mounting points—you 
>> provide the bottle cage.
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyo...@me.com
>> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
>> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:16 AM, JohnS  wrote:
>>
>> Hello Eric N,
>>
>> Thanks for the close up of your bike. Because of it I noticed the clamped 
>> on water bottle cage on the seat tube. Do you like? Which brand is it? I 
>> would like to add a water bottle cage to my '82 Sequoia's down tube (Tange 
>> Special Series Touring, Cro-Mo Double Butted), great riding bike, so much 
>> more lively than my Surly Pacer.
>>
>> JohnS
>>
>> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57:10 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>>
>>> For the tubing nerds out there: the 531 Professional decal (in French) 
>>> on my 1983 Alex Singer. 
>>>
>>> [image: image0.jpeg][image: image1.jpeg]
>>>
>>> –Eric N
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:53 PM, brendonoid  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition 
>>> tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling 
>>> that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.
>>> I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not 
>>> on a Riv. Definitely a special frame.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ecb96a83-26c1-441a-b476-5ebd91747717n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[JohnS]

Thank you Eric,

JohnS

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 11:14:27 AM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:

> The mount I added to the Singer is this one:
>
> [image: 
> 3198yXsC3ML._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingTHREEANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA321,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg]
>
> Elite 0123301 VIP Cage Clamps Water Bottle Cage, 25mm-70mm, Black 
> 
> amazon.com 
> 
>
> 
>
> It’s been solid and dependable. The device adds mounting points—you 
> provide the bottle cage.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyo...@me.com
> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 
>
> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:16 AM, JohnS  wrote:
>
> Hello Eric N,
>
> Thanks for the close up of your bike. Because of it I noticed the clamped 
> on water bottle cage on the seat tube. Do you like? Which brand is it? I 
> would like to add a water bottle cage to my '82 Sequoia's down tube (Tange 
> Special Series Touring, Cro-Mo Double Butted), great riding bike, so much 
> more lively than my Surly Pacer.
>
> JohnS
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57:10 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>
>> For the tubing nerds out there: the 531 Professional decal (in French) on 
>> my 1983 Alex Singer. 
>>
>> [image: image0.jpeg][image: image1.jpeg]
>>
>> –Eric N
>>
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:53 PM, brendonoid  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition 
>> tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling 
>> that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.
>> I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not 
>> on a Riv. Definitely a special frame.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ecb96a83-26c1-441a-b476-5ebd91747717n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The mount I added to the Singer is this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Elite-0123301-Clamps-Bottle-25mm-70mm/dp/B00OS6HKIM/ref=asc_df_B00OS6HKIM/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241987970787&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8490519446908074857&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1014208&hvtargid=pla-355337713622&psc=1
Elite 0123301 VIP Cage Clamps Water Bottle Cage, 25mm-70mm, Black
amazon.com

It’s been solid and dependable. The device adds mounting points—you provide the 
bottle cage.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:16 AM, JohnS  wrote:
> 
> Hello Eric N,
> 
> Thanks for the close up of your bike. Because of it I noticed the clamped on 
> water bottle cage on the seat tube. Do you like? Which brand is it? I would 
> like to add a water bottle cage to my '82 Sequoia's down tube (Tange Special 
> Series Touring, Cro-Mo Double Butted), great riding bike, so much more lively 
> than my Surly Pacer.
> 
> JohnS
> 
> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57:10 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>> For the tubing nerds out there: the 531 Professional decal (in French) on my 
>> 1983 Alex Singer. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> –Eric N
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:53 PM, brendonoid > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition 
>>> tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling 
>>> that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.
>>> I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not on 
>>> a Riv. Definitely a special frame.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com <>.
>> 
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ecb96a83-26c1-441a-b476-5ebd91747717n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> .
> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[JohnS]

Hello Eric N,

Thanks for the close up of your bike. Because of it I noticed the clamped 
on water bottle cage on the seat tube. Do you like? Which brand is it? I 
would like to add a water bottle cage to my '82 Sequoia's down tube (Tange 
Special Series Touring, Cro-Mo Double Butted), great riding bike, so much 
more lively than my Surly Pacer.

JohnS

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57:10 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:

> For the tubing nerds out there: the 531 Professional decal (in French) on 
> my 1983 Alex Singer. 
>
> [image: image0.jpeg][image: image1.jpeg]
>
> –Eric N
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:53 PM, brendonoid  wrote:
>
> 
>
> My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition 
> tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling 
> that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.
> I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not 
> on a Riv. Definitely a special frame.
>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ecb96a83-26c1-441a-b476-5ebd91747717n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[brendonoid]

My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition 
tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling 
that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.
I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not on 
a Riv. Definitely a special frame.


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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[George Schick]

I, too had a mid-70's Bob Jackson and a late-70' Paramount built with 531 
tubing.  Both were sold due to economic circumstances not long after.  But 
I recall that the Paramount of that era was rather crudely constructed with 
a poorly applied paint job, some mediocre components, and wheels that 
must've been machine-built with way overly tightened spokes that began to 
break soon after purchase.  Can't say much more positive about those frames 
other than that I wish all things had been assembled properly which would 
have allowed me to experience the true 531 ride without any negative 
hassles.

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 3:23:20 PM UTC-5 Mike Godwin wrote:

> Oooh, I have some of those charts too.
>
> I think the 531 magic was also in my 1970s era Bob Jackson, and less so in 
> a 1974 Paramount and late 70s Vent Noir. The BJ did not have a model 
> marquis transfer on the frame other than multiple BJ labels, but, no fender 
> eyelets on the Campy dropouts, a 531 db tubes-stays-fork blade sticker, 
> normal (57 mm) reach brakes, and no braze-ons for cable guides or shift 
> levers. Compared to a Vent Noir of similar era, I sure liked the handling 
> much better. And compared to the Paramount, better handling and lighter. 
> That bike is/was a smooth riding rocket.  Come to think of it, the mid-80s 
> Mercian, which disappeared in the 'ought-8 divorce garage sale. 
>
> Mike SLO CA
>
> On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 5:18:40 PM UTC-7 Ted Durant wrote:
>
>> 6:07:06 PM UTC-5 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>>
>> One is made of the more unusual “531 Professional” tubeset, which 
>> featured thinner walls for lighter weight than standard 531 tubing.
>>
>> 531 Professional is rumored to be less durable than 531 because of the 
>> thinner walls, but I regularly ride the 531 Pro Singer (built in 1983) 
>> without any problems … and I’m by no means a “light” rider.
>>
>>
>> The durability issue is dent resistance and strength in a crash. If you 
>> don't smash your frame against a bedpost (how my mother wrecked my first 
>> Holdsworth...) you won't have a problem.
>>
>> Attached for some nerdy fun are a couple of charts of tubing specs.
>>
>> [image: TubingChart.jpg][image: ReynoldsTubeGuide.jpg]On Wednesday, June 
>> 21, 2023 at 
>> [image: 531-tubes.jpg]
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[Mike Godwin]

Oooh, I have some of those charts too.

I think the 531 magic was also in my 1970s era Bob Jackson, and less so in 
a 1974 Paramount and late 70s Vent Noir. The BJ did not have a model 
marquis transfer on the frame other than multiple BJ labels, but, no fender 
eyelets on the Campy dropouts, a 531 db tubes-stays-fork blade sticker, 
normal (57 mm) reach brakes, and no braze-ons for cable guides or shift 
levers. Compared to a Vent Noir of similar era, I sure liked the handling 
much better. And compared to the Paramount, better handling and lighter. 
That bike is/was a smooth riding rocket.  Come to think of it, the mid-80s 
Mercian, which disappeared in the 'ought-8 divorce garage sale. 

Mike SLO CA

On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 5:18:40 PM UTC-7 Ted Durant wrote:

> 6:07:06 PM UTC-5 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>
> One is made of the more unusual “531 Professional” tubeset, which featured 
> thinner walls for lighter weight than standard 531 tubing.
>
> 531 Professional is rumored to be less durable than 531 because of the 
> thinner walls, but I regularly ride the 531 Pro Singer (built in 1983) 
> without any problems … and I’m by no means a “light” rider.
>
>
> The durability issue is dent resistance and strength in a crash. If you 
> don't smash your frame against a bedpost (how my mother wrecked my first 
> Holdsworth...) you won't have a problem.
>
> Attached for some nerdy fun are a couple of charts of tubing specs.
>
> [image: TubingChart.jpg][image: ReynoldsTubeGuide.jpg]On Wednesday, June 
> 21, 2023 at 
> [image: 531-tubes.jpg]
>

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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I’m not an expert, but I believe that most/all of the bikes from the Alex 
Singer shop were made with 531. My two Singers are. 

One is made of the more unusual “531 Professional” tubeset, which featured 
thinner walls for lighter weight than standard 531 tubing.

531 Professional is rumored to be less durable than 531 because of the thinner 
walls, but I regularly ride the 531 Pro Singer (built in 1983) without any 
problems … and I’m by no means a “light” rider.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

> On Jun 21, 2023, at 3:27 PM, Ted Durant  wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 2:38:16 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
> I've read that the PX-10 as well as old Raleigh Internationals from about the 
> same period (late '60s and early '70s?) had plush yet nimble rides, I guess a 
> combination of long, narrow-gauge, not-thick-wall tubes and gentle angles? I 
> can't say that my contemporaneous Motobecane (1973, I was told and it looked 
> right for that period) felt superlative, but it had no vices.
> 
> Time for a thread split!
> 
> As some of you may know, my Holdsworth Special, a late-70's British handbuilt 
> 531 standard tube frame with parallel 73d angles, was my "frame" of reference 
> going into the Heron project. Even though we used OS tubes for the Herons, I 
> have always felt my prototype Heron Road has some of the magic.
> 
> In the 70's I worked in a bike shop that carried Fuji. The shop in the next 
> town over carried Motobecane. It was a bit of a Ford vs Chevy thing for a 
> very (VERY) small group of us. I test rode the Motobecanes and never liked 
> their handling much. My Fujis, on the other hand, always felt perfect to me. 
> Turns out they had super long fork rakes / short trail.
> 
> Another place in the area carried Raleigh. The guy I rode with the most had a 
> Raleigh GS, and another friend had an International. After crashing my Fuji 
> S10-S into the side of a car, I borrowed the International for our high 
> school's inaugural Earth Day bike race. Despite the frame being way too big 
> for me, I managed to get my one and only win in my career, beating a few of 
> those Motobecane fanboys. Super sweet ride, but handling more like a 
> Motobecane than a Fuji, which was fine for a race around the high school 
> parking lot! The S10-S was replaced by a Fuji America, which also ran into a 
> car. That was replaced by the Holdsworth, and I became a devout believer in 
> 531 voodoo. 
> 
> Reynolds made 531 in a variety of wall thicknesses, so it can be hard to tell 
> what's in a frame with generic labels. Sometimes they'll have labels that are 
> more specific but, well, it's possible the label isn't correct! If you really 
> want to know, find someone with a wall thickness measuring device.
> 
> In the spring of 1980 I went to France with a music group. In Paris I went to 
> the rooftop of a department store where they were displaying bikes from Tour 
> de France winners. Holy moly, those frames had been through the wars. Dents 
> all over the place, especially the top tubes. My guess is those guys were 
> using _really_ thin walls.
> 
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
> 
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[RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 2:38:16 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

I've read that the PX-10 as well as old Raleigh Internationals from about 
the same period (late '60s and early '70s?) had plush yet nimble rides, I 
guess a combination of long, narrow-gauge, not-thick-wall tubes and gentle 
angles? I can't say that my contemporaneous Motobecane (1973, I was told 
and it looked right for that period) felt superlative, but it had no vices.


Time for a thread split!

As some of you may know, my Holdsworth Special, a late-70's British 
handbuilt 531 standard tube frame with parallel 73d angles, was my "frame" 
of reference going into the Heron project. Even though we used OS tubes for 
the Herons, I have always felt my prototype Heron Road has some of the 
magic.

In the 70's I worked in a bike shop that carried Fuji. The shop in the next 
town over carried Motobecane. It was a bit of a Ford vs Chevy thing for a 
very (VERY) small group of us. I test rode the Motobecanes and never liked 
their handling much. My Fujis, on the other hand, always felt perfect to 
me. Turns out they had super long fork rakes / short trail.

Another place in the area carried Raleigh. The guy I rode with the most had 
a Raleigh GS, and another friend had an International. After crashing my 
Fuji S10-S into the side of a car, I borrowed the International for our 
high school's inaugural Earth Day bike race. Despite the frame being way 
too big for me, I managed to get my one and only win in my career, beating 
a few of those Motobecane fanboys. Super sweet ride, but handling more like 
a Motobecane than a Fuji, which was fine for a race around the high school 
parking lot! The S10-S was replaced by a Fuji America, which also ran into 
a car. That was replaced by the Holdsworth, and I became a devout believer 
in 531 voodoo. 

Reynolds made 531 in a variety of wall thicknesses, so it can be hard to 
tell what's in a frame with generic labels. Sometimes they'll have labels 
that are more specific but, well, it's possible the label isn't correct! If 
you really want to know, find someone with a wall thickness measuring 
device.

In the spring of 1980 I went to France with a music group. In Paris I went 
to the rooftop of a department store where they were displaying bikes from 
Tour de France winners. Holy moly, those frames had been through the wars. 
Dents all over the place, especially the top tubes. My guess is those guys 
were using _really_ thin walls.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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