Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[hugh flynn]

It's weird, but yer right (It's not weird that you're right, that happens
often enough. Rather, it's the  situation in New Hampshire that's weird).

I live in northern MA, but ride up into N.H. all the time. I swear just
crossing state line improves things. That whole "Masshole" thing is
certainly well-earned.

Hugh Flynn
Newburyport, MA

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:45 PM Peter White  wrote:

> There's an easy fix for this problem.
>
> MOVE TO NEW HAMPSHIRE!
>
> Here in New Hampshire, even the guys in the pickup trucks jacked up an
> extra foot with the AR-15 in the rear window gun rack are extremely polite.
> When I occasionally go south to MA to ride with old friends I'm always
> intimidated by the drivers.
>
> Peter White
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:55 PM John Clifford 
> wrote:
>
>> I've had people yell at me to get off the road when I was in a marked
>> bicycle lane, too. I've had people pull up beside me on a narrow two-lane
>> residential corridor and tell me that riding on the road was unsafe...
>> while they were about to push me into the ditch. In both cases, it was a
>> woman, in a nice crossover SUV (Lexus, Mercedes), who I assume were trying
>> to do me a favor and inform me of my bad or unsafe behavior of being on the
>> road. I've only had one problem in a rural area, while I was part of a big
>> ride (Seattle to Portland) where a logging truck deliberately tried to run
>> me off the road into a bramble-filled ditch. Very scary to have those big
>> truck wheels within a foot of me. But, most people are nice, and I agree
>> with the advice of smiling and waving... it seems to wake people up and
>> shame them.
>>
>> I have to wonder if much of this is due to the stresses of modern life
>> and the culture we live in that makes some people think they are best
>> qualified to tell others what to do and how to live. That's what I get on
>> my bike to escape from.
>>
>>>
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>
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Hugh Flynn
Newburyport, MA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Peter White]

There's an easy fix for this problem.

MOVE TO NEW HAMPSHIRE!

Here in New Hampshire, even the guys in the pickup trucks jacked up an
extra foot with the AR-15 in the rear window gun rack are extremely polite.
When I occasionally go south to MA to ride with old friends I'm always
intimidated by the drivers.

Peter White

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:55 PM John Clifford 
wrote:

> I've had people yell at me to get off the road when I was in a marked
> bicycle lane, too. I've had people pull up beside me on a narrow two-lane
> residential corridor and tell me that riding on the road was unsafe...
> while they were about to push me into the ditch. In both cases, it was a
> woman, in a nice crossover SUV (Lexus, Mercedes), who I assume were trying
> to do me a favor and inform me of my bad or unsafe behavior of being on the
> road. I've only had one problem in a rural area, while I was part of a big
> ride (Seattle to Portland) where a logging truck deliberately tried to run
> me off the road into a bramble-filled ditch. Very scary to have those big
> truck wheels within a foot of me. But, most people are nice, and I agree
> with the advice of smiling and waving... it seems to wake people up and
> shame them.
>
> I have to wonder if much of this is due to the stresses of modern life and
> the culture we live in that makes some people think they are best qualified
> to tell others what to do and how to live. That's what I get on my bike to
> escape from.
>
>>
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> .
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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[John Clifford]

I've had people yell at me to get off the road when I was in a marked 
bicycle lane, too. I've had people pull up beside me on a narrow two-lane 
residential corridor and tell me that riding on the road was unsafe... 
while they were about to push me into the ditch. In both cases, it was a 
woman, in a nice crossover SUV (Lexus, Mercedes), who I assume were trying 
to do me a favor and inform me of my bad or unsafe behavior of being on the 
road. I've only had one problem in a rural area, while I was part of a big 
ride (Seattle to Portland) where a logging truck deliberately tried to run 
me off the road into a bramble-filled ditch. Very scary to have those big 
truck wheels within a foot of me. But, most people are nice, and I agree 
with the advice of smiling and waving... it seems to wake people up and 
shame them.

I have to wonder if much of this is due to the stresses of modern life and 
the culture we live in that makes some people think they are best qualified 
to tell others what to do and how to live. That's what I get on my bike to 
escape from.

>
>

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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Dave Grossman]

Loving this discussion.  I've had all sorts of these encounters on my 
commute like y'all and share similar sentiments about just ignoring them.  
Sometimes after a long day, it can be hard.  

My worst scenario used to be a guy who would ride on his motorcycle every 
morning by me and ride really close.  He would come up behind me and 
basically almost push me off the road.  He would wait for me at stop signs 
on occasion to lambast me about my riding or how I "rolled" a stop sign.  
He was breaking many laws, but that never seemed to occur to him.  I would 
mostly ignore him but not being one to back down from people I would at 
times engage him and this was exactly what he wanted.  He would laugh and 
ride off, always helmet less, and be gone.

After he bothered me a few times I saw him one day...in uniform as a 
coponce he realized this conflict of interest on his behavior on 
him the harassment instantly stopped.I see him from time to time 
now and he never looks at me anymore. 


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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Brian Campbell]

On a Riv related note: 

I live in SE PA outside Philadelphia. Most drivers are pretty nice but I 
would get the occasional " Get off the road" etc. until... I started riding 
with the Riv reflective triangle on the saddle bag of my bike. Now in no 
way is there anything scientific about this but since I have been using it, 
almost 3 years now, I have not had another incident of yelling etc. Not 
sure why but it seems to be working. I wondered if it made look so unlike 
(less serious) than the other road cyclists out there that somehow it 
differentiated me, so as not cause anger? Weird but true.


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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Craig Montgomery]

I ignore these idiots with a big yawn...BUTT...if I'm actually lucky enough 
to get a "get off the road" (5 times at most in the last 30 years) I can't 
help but to retort with a "You first". 

Craig in Tucson

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:23:28 AM UTC-7, PG wrote:
>
> This is a fairly comment problem, I know. 
>
> Lately I've had three different incidents where drivers slowed as they 
> passed me and yelled something. One was, "get off the road" while I was 
> riding in a marked bike lane, another was a dressing down after I rolled 
> (at a walking pace) a stop sign in an empty rural intersection, another was 
> something unintelligible. 
>
> I'm 66, and not inclined to interact with anyone verbally or physically, 
> so I ignored them. All three motorists drove off after venting, so nothing 
> happened.
>
> But, if things were to escalate verbally, what would be the best course of 
> action? 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[John McBurney]

One of the guys who used to work on my bikes was a bike mechanic in
Charleston had a customer who was an instructor in the Marine Recon School,
a small part of the Corps similar to the Navy Seals. A passionate cyclist,
he routinely carried a Glock even on the bike.

He was riding down a two lane road toward a bridge when a pickup carrying 3
good ol boys sped by and someone threw a beer at him. The marine flipped
them off and they pulled over, each coming toward him with a baseball bat.

It’s not a fair fight even if the marine is unarmed but..,

He backed them down at gunpoint, forced them to throw their bats in the
river and told them he didn’t ever want to see them on the road again.

Semper Fi.

On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:53 AM lconley  wrote:

> Back in the 70's I used to ride with a friend who had been harassed by
> someone with a gun once, so he started carrying a 9mm Smith and Wesson in
> the holster strapped to the center of the handlebars, which was legal at
> the time. No more harassment. Not my style, but it worked for him. We used
> to ride the 120 miles between Gainesville and Daytona Beach on quarter
> breaks. I was on my Paramount and he rode an aluminum Alan (glued lugs?) as
> I recall.
>
> Laing
> Cocoa FL
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[David Bivins]

I used to run a cheap go-pro wannabe on my front handlebars to document my
commute to/from work (downtown-ish Brooklyn to midtown Manhattan, NYC). I'd
take it home and edit it to the length of a piece of music of mine (45
minutes cut down to 5 or 6). Then I'd put it on a blog I used to have. It
was fun. The tripod mount on the camera got worn and it fell off my bike at
39th and Lex in Manhattan. I stopped safely and before I could run toward
it, a truck rolled over it, crushing it. REMARKABLY the USB i/o still
worked and the SD card was intact, so I was able to extract that fateful
ride :)

On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 1:25 PM Lynn Haas  wrote:

>
> I know more than a few cyclists, and drivers, running cameras, front and
> rear, full time. I can't bring myself to that level of paranoia on my bike.
> It kills all of the joy.
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Lynn Haas]

My absolutely favorite form of harassment is when I am yelled at for 
blowing a stop sign that isn't there, usually at a 2-way stop. It's 
happened a few times. Once it was a cop. 

The simplest (definitely not the easiest) way to de-escalate is to ignore 
them. If you are in danger, remember that you are on a bike and can get 
away via places they can't go - U-turn on the sidewalk, over the grass, 
behind another vehicle, etc. I sometimes pull out my phone and take 
photos/video, in which case they can't shut up and zoom away fast enough.

I know more than a few cyclists, and drivers, running cameras, front and 
rear, full time. I can't bring myself to that level of paranoia on my bike. 
It kills all of the joy.

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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Philip Williamson]

This is great. I think we had similar self-defense teachers: "Get away, get 
away, get away, get a weapon." 
I used to respond to a buzz or a honk-and-buzz or an agro yeall with a 
full-diaphragm bellowed curse-out. Now I just give 'em a big wave. Seems 
about as effective at changing their behavior, but it makes me feel calmer 
and happier. 

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA 


On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 1:35:16 PM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> I’m with Garth on this one. Most folks are good, and the ones who are 
> cruel are best ignored and avoided. 
>
> When I was learning some self-defense, I found time and time again that 
> the best advice is to avoid. Don’t engage. Get away if you can. If you 
> can’t, then become the nastiest, meanest, loudest, foulest version of 
> yourself and fight like your life depends on it - because it does. 
>
> My kids used to attend an elementary school that had no valet car loop. It 
> was pandemonium with cars parking and trying to get their kids to school. 
> We biked and were in the minority for sure; and those cars would block our 
> way any way we tried to go. As the weeks went by I went from annoyed, to 
> ticked, to angry, to furious and finally, to vengeful. I wrote notes and 
> stuck them to car windows when cars blocked the sidewalks. I snapped photos 
> of drivers illegally parked while they looked on, raging at me through 
> their closed windows. I called the non-emergency line for the police when I 
> saw folks endangering pedestrians with their cars. I called the school and 
> complained. I called again and asked to be granted permission to don a 
> yellow vest and move cars along who parked illegally. You guys, when I 
> started imagining screwdrivers duct-taped to my handlebars so I could leave 
> an impression on the cars who got in my way, I knew I was the one who 
> needed to change. I had tried to solve the problem, but it couldn’t be 
> solved. I could only change me. 
>
> That’s not unlike your situation. You can’t stop folks from being horrible 
> to you on your bike. But you can choose not to escalate the situation. You 
> can wear a go-pro so you have a camera on drivers. You can try to 
> respectfully chat with them. But in my experience, eye contact and a 
> friendly wave is the best defense I have. I reinvented myself when we 
> switched to a charter school a couple miles down the road. This time I made 
> sure to call out good morning greetings to those we met and to wave when I 
> could and folks know and adore me now. When a drunk driver drove up onto 
> the sidewalk and nearly killed my son and me, a driver pursued him and 
> called 911. I credit that to good repertoire between me and the drivers in 
> my neck of the woods. 
>
> Hang in there. Most folks aren’t so bad. And the more they see you, the 
> more they will like you. It’s a psychological fact! 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[lconley]

Back in the 70's I used to ride with a friend who had been harassed by 
someone with a gun once, so he started carrying a 9mm Smith and Wesson in 
the holster strapped to the center of the handlebars, which was legal at 
the time. No more harassment. Not my style, but it worked for him. We used 
to ride the 120 miles between Gainesville and Daytona Beach on quarter 
breaks. I was on my Paramount and he rode an aluminum Alan (glued lugs?) as 
I recall.

Laing
Cocoa FL

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Joe Bernard]

I very much agree with Leah's approach. But alas, I am a terrible person and 
want to see those screwdrivers duct-taped to her bars 😬

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[PG]

Thank you all for your varied and well stated thoughts. 

I've never gotten into a fight in my life, including grade school. I've 
always been good a diffusing a bad situation. (My father was an alcoholic 
and a bully, so it was a skill I learned early on.) But for some reason, 
these three incidents in the past week or so really struck me as being 
somehow different than any of the other times in my cycling life (been 
riding since I was 4...so 62 years!). They projected a sense of 
embolden-ment that was really powerful. Like they were somehow deputized to 
"clean up Dodge City" or something. I couldn't help but feel there was a 
real conflict just waiting to happen. 

On this evening's ride, I flatted a few blocks from home. As I was walking 
my bike back, since it was late, a guy in a pickup who fit the demographic 
of my 3 most recent "friends" passed me, then pulled over, and when I came 
up to him, offered me a ride. So, as several of you have pointed out, more 
times than not, the good outweighs the bad. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[sameness]

Curious where you live that requires you to carry while on a bicycle? Are 
you in the US or elsewhere?

(FYI, lest ye be smellin' a troll, I own multiple registered firearms.)

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 7:01:06 PM UTC-7, MCT wrote:
>
> I helped blew up iBob with mentioning I carry a firearm in my front bag. 
>  I am passive and have it in case I need it.  No one knows I have it and 
> don’t tell anyone I am riding with.  It is the last resort.  Don’t worry. 
>  I am properly trained and know when I am doing. 
>
> The police are minutes away and an attack will happen in seconds. 
>
> For verbal harassment, just ignore you don’t want to provoke anyone that 
> is looking for a fight. 
>
> Matt 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[MCT]

I helped blew up iBob with mentioning I carry a firearm in my front bag.  I am 
passive and have it in case I need it.  No one knows I have it and don’t tell 
anyone I am riding with.  It is the last resort.  Don’t worry.  I am properly 
trained and know when I am doing. 

The police are minutes away and an attack will happen in seconds. 

For verbal harassment, just ignore you don’t want to provoke anyone that is 
looking for a fight. 

Matt 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

['Dave Small' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I do one of two things when someone hollers at me as they're driving by:  I 
either ignore them or I smile and wave.  The latter reaction tends to 
confuse them, which makes that option a lot more fun.  

The people doing this are a-holes, and they're not worth the emotional 
capital it would take to get pissed off at them.  

>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Leah Peterson]

Jeff, that is actually brilliant. Wow. Filing this away. ❤️

Also, I hope the OP doesn’t feel we are saying “be a victim.” Nothing could be 
further from the truth. There are some fights worth having and some hills worth 
dying on. But taking on arrogant, rude people driving 2 ton steel death 
machines isn’t a fight you can win. 

I sympathize. It’s unnerving and I’m sorry you’ve been treated poorly. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 22, 2019, at 5:15 PM, sameness  wrote:
> 
> I'm paraphrasing my old therapist, who was allegedly paraphrasing Gandhi, so 
> Jah knows who actually said what, but: 
> 
> If you choose to engage, you make it about you. If you choose not to engage, 
> you make it about them.
> 
> Jeff Hagedorn
> Los Angeles, CA USA
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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[sameness]

I'm paraphrasing my old therapist, who was allegedly paraphrasing Gandhi, 
so Jah knows who actually said what, but: 

If you choose to engage, you make it about *you*. If you choose not to 
engage, you make it about *them*.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Patrick Moore]

I don't know how the south is in 2019, but in 1980, in rural NW Georgia,
"rednecks" in baseball caps with rifles on the rack would wave friendly to
one as one was jogging. I saw more traffic nastiness in Washington DC.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 4:25 PM Edwin W  wrote:
> Here in the south I assume most people have guns. So I am really working
on not responding!


*And take the hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
--- J.R.R. Tolkien
---
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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

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Re: [RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Patrick Moore]

Actually, I too find this to be true here in NM, rural and urban; its a few
disgruntled suburbanites in new vehicles that have been the nastiest, not
rural rednecks.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:01 PM Garth  wrote:

> ...
> I find most people quite friendly really  I'm rather communicative on
> the road and rather enjoy it.
>

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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Edwin W]

>
> Here in the south I assume most people have guns. So I am really working 
> on not responding!
>

Not always able to, and always regretful when I respond! Like when a guy 
raised his handgun off the dash. He didn't point it at me or anything, but 
scared the living daylights out of me.

Working to improve myself,

Edwin 

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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I was amazed how fast angry driver yelling vanished when I started smiling and 
waving at each car. Granted this is on rural routes and in small towns, but it 
works very well.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I’m with Garth on this one. Most folks are good, and the ones who are cruel are 
best ignored and avoided. 

When I was learning some self-defense, I found time and time again that the 
best advice is to avoid. Don’t engage. Get away if you can. If you can’t, then 
become the nastiest, meanest, loudest, foulest version of yourself and fight 
like your life depends on it - because it does. 

My kids used to attend an elementary school that had no valet car loop. It was 
pandemonium with cars parking and trying to get their kids to school. We biked 
and were in the minority for sure; and those cars would block our way any way 
we tried to go. As the weeks went by I went from annoyed, to ticked, to angry, 
to furious and finally, to vengeful. I wrote notes and stuck them to car 
windows when cars blocked the sidewalks. I snapped photos of drivers illegally 
parked while they looked on, raging at me through their closed windows. I 
called the non-emergency line for the police when I saw folks endangering 
pedestrians with their cars. I called the school and complained. I called again 
and asked to be granted permission to don a yellow vest and move cars along who 
parked illegally. You guys, when I started imagining screwdrivers duct-taped to 
my handlebars so I could leave an impression on the cars who got in my way, I 
knew I was the one who needed to change. I had tried to solve the problem, but 
it couldn’t be solved. I could only change me.

That’s not unlike your situation. You can’t stop folks from being horrible to 
you on your bike. But you can choose not to escalate the situation. You can 
wear a go-pro so you have a camera on drivers. You can try to respectfully chat 
with them. But in my experience, eye contact and a friendly wave is the best 
defense I have. I reinvented myself when we switched to a charter school a 
couple miles down the road. This time I made sure to call out good morning 
greetings to those we met and to wave when I could and folks know and adore me 
now. When a drunk driver drove up onto the sidewalk and nearly killed my son 
and me, a driver pursued him and called 911. I credit that to good repertoire 
between me and the drivers in my neck of the woods. 

Hang in there. Most folks aren’t so bad. And the more they see you, the more 
they will like you. It’s a psychological fact! 

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[RBW] Re: Dealing with verbal harrassment on the road

[Garth]

People gonna say what they're gonna say.. it's not like there's 
anything to do about it ... just let 'em ramble on and move on.  Yes but 
 what if ... ?  You could ask that all day long about everything  
and the answer is the same. What if has nothing to with what is, the living 
present. 

The most hilarious guy was a passenger in a car with the windows rolled up. 
He was yelling something as the car went around me . the window was 
closed of course, so the only one who heard it was the driver ! Just too 
funny !   As for all the honkers and grumblers on the road  they come 
and they go.   By far most people are very friendly, the other day a gruff 
looking guy in a ol' pickup slowed down as I had stopped along the side of 
the road as I was listening to the frogs in the wetlands  he simply 
asked my if everything was alright .  I gave a big thumbs up and a smile 
 there's lots of good people around ... far more than not. 

I find most people quite friendly really  I'm rather communicative on 
the road and rather enjoy it. I don't live in a high traffic area, the cars 
a often few and minutes can pass between cars. There's an older man and his 
wife who I stop and chat with sometimes at a farm i like ride around. He 
used to work in the steel mills, like many in the are did. Hands of iron 
and a heart of gold really  lots of damm nice people around. I love 
riding around local small farms/farmers  I wave to all of them without 
regard... and yes ... I waive to the cows and horses and wild turkeys and 
goats and birds and pretty much anyone and anything.  Riding and walking 
slow and without an agenda to me is way to get around and meet people like 
I never could otherwise. I don't need names . just being here  is 
priceless. 



On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 1:23:28 PM UTC-4, PG wrote:

> This is a fairly comment problem, I know. 
>
> Lately I've had three different incidents where drivers slowed as they 
> passed me and yelled something. One was, "get off the road" while I was 
> riding in a marked bike lane, another was a dressing down after I rolled 
> (at a walking pace) a stop sign in an empty rural intersection, another was 
> something unintelligible. 
>
> I'm 66, and not inclined to interact with anyone verbally or physically, 
> so I ignored them. All three motorists drove off after venting, so nothing 
> happened.
>
> But, if things were to escalate verbally, what would be the best course of 
> action? 
>

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