[RBW] Re: High and wide versus low and narrow drop bar for off road riding
Once again, thanks all for the comments and suggestions, and for indulging me in my public ruminations on what is, after all, a very personal and idiosyncratic problem. I still hope to talk to Analog about this, and about the Tanglefoot. Riding the bike in question today on mixed pavement and sandy dirt surfaces -- Matthews 1:1, I asked C Matthews to make me a "road bike for 60 X 662 + fenders or 584 X 76 + fenders with acceptable Q; this currently has 60s + fenders and 160 mm Q -- it just feels so right for firm surfaces, light sand, and the broader dirt paths. I am currently convincing myself that what I have been asking for for is basically incompatible, and that I will be better served saving any $$ for new bars and stems for an eventual (God willing) replacement for the Monocog, designed for upright riding with a bar wide enough for careful control in slow-speed, sketchy conditions. Or/And: learn to handle the Matthews better. There is one particular stretch with narrow, canted surface between tree and fence and ditch, with erosion and roots, that segues into a very narrow -- 18-24" -- "crowned" surface that curves to the left along a leftside ditch, for which, riding the Matthews, I'll often get off and walk, while on the Monocog I'll breeze through it without qualm. I daresay that, if I were not quite so timid on narrow offroad surfaces, the Matthews would get me though just fine -- I am timid on technical stuff, tho' I used to be a buccaneer in traffic. Anyway, thanks all; will report if anything of interest results. On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 1:23 PM Patrick Moore wrote: > Cross posting because, while the iBob is the bigger list, the RBW list > is the home of high-bar afficionados. > > This is at the moment only an inquiry, but I wonder if I can get a > better compromise bar setup on my Matthews 1:1 to maintain comfortable > pavement cruising but gain more slow-speed, narrow-trail, sandy-soil > control. > > Right now I have what for me is a wide-ish bar, a RH Maes Parallel 42 > cm at hoods and 44 cm at ends set about 5-7 mm below saddle with 10 cm > stem; this compares with 38 cm MPs 3 cm below saddle with 8 cm stems > for my road bikes. All give me me very comfortable pavement positions, > with the wider, slightly higher and wider 42/44/10 cm giving a > slightly more upright position on dirt. > > Is there any way I can maintain a comfortable pavement/hardpack > cruising position with a higher and wider bar that will give me better > slow speed control on narrow, bumpy, soft singletrack? I don't ride > technical stuff except, but I do encounter not infrequent narrow, > bumpy sections of acequia trails bordered closely by fences and trees > on one side and 4' dropoffs into ditches on the other side, often > eroded and crossed by tree roots. > > I think of wider and closer for better slow speed control on the > hoods, with a sufficiently deep hook to allow a comfortable hard > surface cruising position. I've tried many -- at least half a dozen, > from the original WTBs to more modern, wider wide flared dirt drop > bars up to about 660 mm wide, and never liked them, even when > positioned higher than road bars, but perhaps I've not tried high > enough. > > I repeat: I have repeatedly found very wide setups uncomfortable. > > I may be asking for incompatible setups, but does anyone have any ideas on > this? > > I'd like to stick to drops. > > -- > > --- > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum > -- --- Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CALuTfgsUEWpsA2HOzhVQ6tyz5fWC%2BhC8%2BFdQfux469ZbTMEXvg%40mail.gmail.com.
[RBW] Re: High and wide versus low and narrow drop bar for off road riding
Crust Shaka bar, 54mm? On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 11:40:34 PM UTC-5 Jason Fuller wrote: > So, I tried the Crust towel rack (narrow version) and it gave me neck pain > but the 50cm Simworks SoBar (basically a 50cm Noodle) works beautifully for > me; a 48cm Nitto Noodle is the closest still-available option. I have > somewhat broad shoulders for my size but I'm not a big guy, so normally I'd > run a 42 or so. Everyone is different, but I recommend this bar highly in > as wide as your body will allow - the control of a wider drop bar > off-pavement is undeniable. And the Noodle is such a classic and still hard > to beat shape IMO, especially coming off a randonneur style bar > > On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 16:16:27 UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote: > >> Thanks Richard, good idea; I'll contact Analog. In fact what got me >> thinking about this was looking at someone's -- Analog's? -- very wide >> but very, very short reach and drop drop bar on a very short stem. I >> also want to talk to them about the Tanglefoot. >> >> Garth: Thanks. The problem is not that I'm forcing myself to sit up >> higher than the bar comfortably allows but that the bar feels too >> narrow for slow speed handling, especially with the fat (61 mm), soft >> (20 psi) tires. I "feel" I need more leverage. In fact, I've been >> thinking I ought to try riding this one particular section (about 2' >> wide, fence and big Cottonwood on West, path sloping to ditch on East, >> roots and erosion) in the hooks and see if that gives me more control. >> >> But you may be right that the solution might simply be to get the bar >> a bit higher and regain the bank angle by bending my elbows more. >> Perhaps flipping the -17* stem (high head tube!) upward and getting a >> 46 cm version of the same bar might work ...? >> >> [Jim's stem calculator says that this will put the bar 56 mm higher >> and 17 mm closer than with the stem flipped to -17*; anyone care to >> guess how much reach would be regained with a bar 4 cm wider?] >> >> At any rate, I'm looking more for others' ideas and setups and not >> only bar types. I've used the Cowbell (I think; I know I've used the >> Woodchipper), the On OneMary, perhaps another modern wide, flared bar, >> as well as various iterations of the old WTB flared bar, its Nitto and >> Specializeds cousins, as well as the Noodle up to 46 cm, and didn't >> like any; BUT -- here's the reason for my question: I may find that I >> like or don't mind wider bars if properly high and close; and it's for >> this that I'm seeking others' thoughts. >> >> I have a favorite "bend" at the hips when I ride the hoods and hooks >> (which my current setups give me) and I'd like to keep that but -- as >> I said -- with more slow speed control on sketchy sections. My brother >> has fallen into one of the local irrigation ditches and I want to >> avoid that fate! >> >> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 1:23 PM Patrick Moore wrote: >> > >> > Cross posting because, while the iBob is the bigger list, the RBW list >> > is the home of high-bar afficionados. >> > >> > This is at the moment only an inquiry, but I wonder if I can get a >> > better compromise bar setup on my Matthews 1:1 to maintain comfortable >> > pavement cruising but gain more slow-speed, narrow-trail, sandy-soil >> > control. >> > >> > Right now I have what for me is a wide-ish bar, a RH Maes Parallel 42 >> > cm at hoods and 44 cm at ends set about 5-7 mm below saddle with 10 cm >> > stem; this compares with 38 cm MPs 3 cm below saddle with 8 cm stems >> > for my road bikes. All give me me very comfortable pavement positions, >> > with the wider, slightly higher and wider 42/44/10 cm giving a >> > slightly more upright position on dirt. >> > >> > Is there any way I can maintain a comfortable pavement/hardpack >> > cruising position with a higher and wider bar that will give me better >> > slow speed control on narrow, bumpy, soft singletrack? I don't ride >> > technical stuff except, but I do encounter not infrequent narrow, >> > bumpy sections of acequia trails bordered closely by fences and trees >> > on one side and 4' dropoffs into ditches on the other side, often >> > eroded and crossed by tree roots. >> > >> > I think of wider and closer for better slow speed control on the >> > hoods, with a sufficiently deep hook to allow a comfortable hard >> > surface cruising position. I've tried many -- at least half a dozen, >> > from the original WTBs to more modern, wider wide flared dirt drop >> > bars up to about 660 mm wide, and never liked them, even when >> > positioned higher than road bars, but perhaps I've not tried high >> > enough. >> > >> > I repeat: I have repeatedly found very wide setups uncomfortable. >> > >> > I may be asking for incompatible setups, but does anyone have any ideas >> on this? >> > >> > I'd like to stick to drops. >> > >> > -- >> > >> > --- >> > Patrick Moore >> > Alburquerque, Nuevo M
[RBW] Re: High and wide versus low and narrow drop bar for off road riding
So, I tried the Crust towel rack (narrow version) and it gave me neck pain but the 50cm Simworks SoBar (basically a 50cm Noodle) works beautifully for me; a 48cm Nitto Noodle is the closest still-available option. I have somewhat broad shoulders for my size but I'm not a big guy, so normally I'd run a 42 or so. Everyone is different, but I recommend this bar highly in as wide as your body will allow - the control of a wider drop bar off-pavement is undeniable. And the Noodle is such a classic and still hard to beat shape IMO, especially coming off a randonneur style bar On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 16:16:27 UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote: > Thanks Richard, good idea; I'll contact Analog. In fact what got me > thinking about this was looking at someone's -- Analog's? -- very wide > but very, very short reach and drop drop bar on a very short stem. I > also want to talk to them about the Tanglefoot. > > Garth: Thanks. The problem is not that I'm forcing myself to sit up > higher than the bar comfortably allows but that the bar feels too > narrow for slow speed handling, especially with the fat (61 mm), soft > (20 psi) tires. I "feel" I need more leverage. In fact, I've been > thinking I ought to try riding this one particular section (about 2' > wide, fence and big Cottonwood on West, path sloping to ditch on East, > roots and erosion) in the hooks and see if that gives me more control. > > But you may be right that the solution might simply be to get the bar > a bit higher and regain the bank angle by bending my elbows more. > Perhaps flipping the -17* stem (high head tube!) upward and getting a > 46 cm version of the same bar might work ...? > > [Jim's stem calculator says that this will put the bar 56 mm higher > and 17 mm closer than with the stem flipped to -17*; anyone care to > guess how much reach would be regained with a bar 4 cm wider?] > > At any rate, I'm looking more for others' ideas and setups and not > only bar types. I've used the Cowbell (I think; I know I've used the > Woodchipper), the On OneMary, perhaps another modern wide, flared bar, > as well as various iterations of the old WTB flared bar, its Nitto and > Specializeds cousins, as well as the Noodle up to 46 cm, and didn't > like any; BUT -- here's the reason for my question: I may find that I > like or don't mind wider bars if properly high and close; and it's for > this that I'm seeking others' thoughts. > > I have a favorite "bend" at the hips when I ride the hoods and hooks > (which my current setups give me) and I'd like to keep that but -- as > I said -- with more slow speed control on sketchy sections. My brother > has fallen into one of the local irrigation ditches and I want to > avoid that fate! > > On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 1:23 PM Patrick Moore wrote: > > > > Cross posting because, while the iBob is the bigger list, the RBW list > > is the home of high-bar afficionados. > > > > This is at the moment only an inquiry, but I wonder if I can get a > > better compromise bar setup on my Matthews 1:1 to maintain comfortable > > pavement cruising but gain more slow-speed, narrow-trail, sandy-soil > > control. > > > > Right now I have what for me is a wide-ish bar, a RH Maes Parallel 42 > > cm at hoods and 44 cm at ends set about 5-7 mm below saddle with 10 cm > > stem; this compares with 38 cm MPs 3 cm below saddle with 8 cm stems > > for my road bikes. All give me me very comfortable pavement positions, > > with the wider, slightly higher and wider 42/44/10 cm giving a > > slightly more upright position on dirt. > > > > Is there any way I can maintain a comfortable pavement/hardpack > > cruising position with a higher and wider bar that will give me better > > slow speed control on narrow, bumpy, soft singletrack? I don't ride > > technical stuff except, but I do encounter not infrequent narrow, > > bumpy sections of acequia trails bordered closely by fences and trees > > on one side and 4' dropoffs into ditches on the other side, often > > eroded and crossed by tree roots. > > > > I think of wider and closer for better slow speed control on the > > hoods, with a sufficiently deep hook to allow a comfortable hard > > surface cruising position. I've tried many -- at least half a dozen, > > from the original WTBs to more modern, wider wide flared dirt drop > > bars up to about 660 mm wide, and never liked them, even when > > positioned higher than road bars, but perhaps I've not tried high > > enough. > > > > I repeat: I have repeatedly found very wide setups uncomfortable. > > > > I may be asking for incompatible setups, but does anyone have any ideas > on this? > > > > I'd like to stick to drops. > > > > -- > > > > --- > > Patrick Moore > > Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum > > > > -- > > --- > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Ameriq
[RBW] Re: High and wide versus low and narrow drop bar for off road riding
Thanks Richard, good idea; I'll contact Analog. In fact what got me thinking about this was looking at someone's -- Analog's? -- very wide but very, very short reach and drop drop bar on a very short stem. I also want to talk to them about the Tanglefoot. Garth: Thanks. The problem is not that I'm forcing myself to sit up higher than the bar comfortably allows but that the bar feels too narrow for slow speed handling, especially with the fat (61 mm), soft (20 psi) tires. I "feel" I need more leverage. In fact, I've been thinking I ought to try riding this one particular section (about 2' wide, fence and big Cottonwood on West, path sloping to ditch on East, roots and erosion) in the hooks and see if that gives me more control. But you may be right that the solution might simply be to get the bar a bit higher and regain the bank angle by bending my elbows more. Perhaps flipping the -17* stem (high head tube!) upward and getting a 46 cm version of the same bar might work ...? [Jim's stem calculator says that this will put the bar 56 mm higher and 17 mm closer than with the stem flipped to -17*; anyone care to guess how much reach would be regained with a bar 4 cm wider?] At any rate, I'm looking more for others' ideas and setups and not only bar types. I've used the Cowbell (I think; I know I've used the Woodchipper), the On OneMary, perhaps another modern wide, flared bar, as well as various iterations of the old WTB flared bar, its Nitto and Specializeds cousins, as well as the Noodle up to 46 cm, and didn't like any; BUT -- here's the reason for my question: I may find that I like or don't mind wider bars if properly high and close; and it's for this that I'm seeking others' thoughts. I have a favorite "bend" at the hips when I ride the hoods and hooks (which my current setups give me) and I'd like to keep that but -- as I said -- with more slow speed control on sketchy sections. My brother has fallen into one of the local irrigation ditches and I want to avoid that fate! On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 1:23 PM Patrick Moore wrote: > > Cross posting because, while the iBob is the bigger list, the RBW list > is the home of high-bar afficionados. > > This is at the moment only an inquiry, but I wonder if I can get a > better compromise bar setup on my Matthews 1:1 to maintain comfortable > pavement cruising but gain more slow-speed, narrow-trail, sandy-soil > control. > > Right now I have what for me is a wide-ish bar, a RH Maes Parallel 42 > cm at hoods and 44 cm at ends set about 5-7 mm below saddle with 10 cm > stem; this compares with 38 cm MPs 3 cm below saddle with 8 cm stems > for my road bikes. All give me me very comfortable pavement positions, > with the wider, slightly higher and wider 42/44/10 cm giving a > slightly more upright position on dirt. > > Is there any way I can maintain a comfortable pavement/hardpack > cruising position with a higher and wider bar that will give me better > slow speed control on narrow, bumpy, soft singletrack? I don't ride > technical stuff except, but I do encounter not infrequent narrow, > bumpy sections of acequia trails bordered closely by fences and trees > on one side and 4' dropoffs into ditches on the other side, often > eroded and crossed by tree roots. > > I think of wider and closer for better slow speed control on the > hoods, with a sufficiently deep hook to allow a comfortable hard > surface cruising position. I've tried many -- at least half a dozen, > from the original WTBs to more modern, wider wide flared dirt drop > bars up to about 660 mm wide, and never liked them, even when > positioned higher than road bars, but perhaps I've not tried high > enough. > > I repeat: I have repeatedly found very wide setups uncomfortable. > > I may be asking for incompatible setups, but does anyone have any ideas on > this? > > I'd like to stick to drops. > > -- > > --- > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum -- --- Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CALuTfgvGx%3DOVqwAnHwgh4EsyGPRTO5kSjfU_0jJ7RLPJK-uXng%40mail.gmail.com.
[RBW] Re: High and wide versus low and narrow drop bar for off road riding
So it sounds like you're looking for a "just right for you" balance between a wider bar and it's height for your given bike and your inherent riding sensibilities. I word it that way because cookie cutter formulas and cliche's are really good for selling clicks on the web pages but they all fail to apply directly to any specific rider and their unique character. I may be off here but I sense you're almost forcing yourself to ride "upright", though again that word is so generic as it implies a rigid, locked in and unforgiving position that completely ignores "the how" we all position and move as we ride a bike. Again it's that "how" that is unique to every-one, and it's never the same twice, as nothing is ever the same twice ! All that said, since you've tried mega wide bars, what about simply a slightly wider drop in the style you already ride ? A Salsa Cowbell Deluxe comes to mind. The flare is slight so the width in the drops is small and there's no weird brake lever angles. Having had a Nitto Dirt Drop 013 the slight wider flare of the Cowbell would be nice. https://bikepacking.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/salsa-cowbell_1-2000x1333.jpg https://bikepacking.com/index/gravel-bars/ Salsa Cowbell - Width: 380, 400, 420, 440, 460mm - Flare: 12° - Drop/Reach: 115mm / 68mm - Outsweep: 12° drop angle - Full Width: 433, 453, 473, 493, 513mm On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 3:23:49 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote: > Cross posting because, while the iBob is the bigger list, the RBW list > is the home of high-bar afficionados. > > This is at the moment only an inquiry, but I wonder if I can get a > better compromise bar setup on my Matthews 1:1 to maintain comfortable > pavement cruising but gain more slow-speed, narrow-trail, sandy-soil > control. > > Right now I have what for me is a wide-ish bar, a RH Maes Parallel 42 > cm at hoods and 44 cm at ends set about 5-7 mm below saddle with 10 cm > stem; this compares with 38 cm MPs 3 cm below saddle with 8 cm stems > for my road bikes. All give me me very comfortable pavement positions, > with the wider, slightly higher and wider 42/44/10 cm giving a > slightly more upright position on dirt. > > Is there any way I can maintain a comfortable pavement/hardpack > cruising position with a higher and wider bar that will give me better > slow speed control on narrow, bumpy, soft singletrack? I don't ride > technical stuff except, but I do encounter not infrequent narrow, > bumpy sections of acequia trails bordered closely by fences and trees > on one side and 4' dropoffs into ditches on the other side, often > eroded and crossed by tree roots. > > I think of wider and closer for better slow speed control on the > hoods, with a sufficiently deep hook to allow a comfortable hard > surface cruising position. I've tried many -- at least half a dozen, > from the original WTBs to more modern, wider wide flared dirt drop > bars up to about 660 mm wide, and never liked them, even when > positioned higher than road bars, but perhaps I've not tried high > enough. > > I repeat: I have repeatedly found very wide setups uncomfortable. > > I may be asking for incompatible setups, but does anyone have any ideas on > this? > > I'd like to stick to drops. > > -- > > --- > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8be1a024-04d8-402c-aa30-26228fbfd8f2n%40googlegroups.com.
