[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
I wouldn't call the Heron Road an "all 'rounder," (or do you mean the touring model?) It maximized tire clearance with the short reach sidepulls of the time, but that only amounts to maybe a 30mm tire, no fenders--it's definitely a road bike. I think it's the closest thing to the Bridgestone RB-1/2's that Riv's ever offered. (and the touring closest to the RB-T I'd say the Riv/Soma joint venture meets your "mass market all-rounder," description pretty well... On Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:41:23 AM UTC-4, dan gee wrote: > > > I think that Rivendells are probably priced too low. > > Considering that you can get a full custom US-made bike made for a few > hundred less than any of the non-Taiwainese stock bikes, I'm going to > respectfully disagree here. Obviously people are willing to pay that > much, but those prices put Rivs out of the reach of many of us, and > there are many comparable Taiwanese options (Surly, Soma, Handsome) > that cost as little as half of what the Rivs do. Granted, with > powdercoats and without lugs, but still. > > I really with there was a modern equivalent of the Heron - something > that embodies the principles of Riv's design, but without all the > frills and decoration that would raise the price, and without all the > design oddities that limit the market. Make a mass-market all-rounder > in Taiwan, use the economies of scale to get a good price on the > manufacture, and put something in the public's hands that would be an > alternative to the carbon racing bikes that most people find > themselves steered to in bike shops. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Ak--S7bVoVUJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
How much "should" a bike cost? LoL!! That's a good one. A bike costs what it costs there is no shortage of bikes to choose from. There is no shortage of money from which to buy them. . . . the only true limits are those that we place on ourselves. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/47O_6t8Nb6QJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
How much "should" a bike cost? LoL!! That's a good one. A bike costs what it costs there is no shortage of bikes to choose from. There is no shortage of money from which to buy them. . . . the only limits are those that we place on ourselves. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/N27cUhpid08J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
I've been on the BOB List off and on for 11 years. This is the very tired "are Rivendell's over priced" topic debated there many times, disguised as a generic "what bikes cost" thread that doesn't even belong here. I recently picked up an old Cannondale MTB for $50 that needed wheels and levers. Put together, these run about 3-400 around here, certainly more than I have invested in it after pulling wheels and levers out of the garage. What should it cost? What the seller wanted, $50. What should it cost* you*to buy from *me.* Whatever I can reasonably talk you into paying. Period. Joe "have I got a deal for you" Bernard Fairfield, CA. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/PAWU5iUnbQIJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
Agreed. What the market will bear. When you come right down to it, the topic applies to anything that is for sale and is ridiculous to call it a RBW list topic just because it speculates on the value of bikes. How is the original post not "off topic" when it really has nothing specifically to do with Riv stuff? On 7/26/2011 12:34 PM, Peter Pesce wrote: It should cost as much as the market will bear. Bike building is a for-profit enterprise, not a charity, and there is no morally-correct value to a bike. That being said, I do agree that there is a place for value judgments in HOW a company makes the bike and sells it, that involves labor practices, environmental effects, and ethical business practices in the marketing and sale of the bike. And, in fact, those are just product differentiators, and many buyers will choose exploitative over ethical if a seller needs to charge more for the "ethical" and can't convey that added value to the buyer. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/oaoo__wr3cQJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
It should cost as much as the market will bear. Bike building is a for-profit enterprise, not a charity, and there is no morally-correct value to a bike. That being said, I do agree that there is a place for value judgments in HOW a company makes the bike and sells it, that involves labor practices, environmental effects, and ethical business practices in the marketing and sale of the bike. And, in fact, those are just product differentiators, and many buyers will choose exploitative over ethical if a seller needs to charge more for the "ethical" and can't convey that added value to the buyer. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/oaoo__wr3cQJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
on 7/26/11 10:20 AM, Bill Carter at bcarter...@charter.net wrote: > What am I missing here? Doesn't the original concept of the Heron > still live on in bikes like the Bleriot, the Sam and the new SOMA San > Marcos? They all sell (or sold) at close to the same price point as > the Heron frames did and they provide a no-frills high quality lugged > frame that the buyer can build up in any number of ways. While the > jury may be out on the new SOMA, the Bleriot and Sam have been quite > successful. The Herons came in a road version and a tourer and some > have been successfully converted to 650B. What may have doomed the > Heron was that Rivendell quit selling them as they brought other > products online that they chose to focus on. I was assuming that part of the OP's point was a model in which there weren't 2TT's or 650B/584 wheelsets involved. At the time it was released, there was a small but vocal segment who felt the Bleriot should not have been a 650B/584 specific model, just as now there are those who feel a 2TT is a deal breaker. I'm firmly in the camp that the Sam Hillborne and San Marcos provide a way to get Rivendell-designed handling and versatility at a moderate price point. - J -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Current Classics Bicycle Photo Gallery - http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc Cross Bike Photo Gallery - http://www.cyclofiend.com/cx Single Speed Garage Photo Gallery - http://www.cyclofiend.com/ssg Working Bikes & Practical Hardware - http://www.cyclofiend.com/working Work Shops of the iBob's - http://www.cyclofiend.com/shop Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines "That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcome; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace." William Gibson - "All Tomorrow's Parties" -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
There have been some of those- the joint venture with Soma and the joint venture with QBP (albeit that was 650B which might have limited the market). But the problem is labor cost. Having built one frame under the guidance of a friend who has a frame building business, the labor involved is considerable. If you build it in the US, I'd bet there's $500 in labor costs in the frame alone; in Japan, more. Build them in China where labor costs are 1/10 of industrialized Western nations and you can cut that a lot but then you have all the other issues involved... On Jul 26, 2011, at 8:41 AM, dan gee wrote: > I really with there was a modern equivalent of the Heron - something > that embodies the principles of Riv's design, but without all the > frills and decoration that would raise the price, and without all the > design oddities that limit the market. Make a mass-market all-rounder > in Taiwan, use the economies of scale to get a good price on the > manufacture, and put something in the public's hands that would be an > alternative to the carbon racing bikes that most people find > themselves steered to in bike shops. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
On Jul 26, 12:39 pm, CycloFiend wrote: > on 7/26/11 6:41 AM, dan gee at dmg...@gmail.com wrote: > IPerhaps there can be no modern equivilent of the Heron because it is a flawed concept (wait a second - I do really like the bikes - I'm trying to make a larger point here...). From a buyer's perspective, why pay for lugs and paint when a TIG'ed Surly can be had a bit cheaper? What am I missing here? Doesn't the original concept of the Heron still live on in bikes like the Bleriot, the Sam and the new SOMA San Marcos? They all sell (or sold) at close to the same price point as the Heron frames did and they provide a no-frills high quality lugged frame that the buyer can build up in any number of ways. While the jury may be out on the new SOMA, the Bleriot and Sam have been quite successful. The Herons came in a road version and a tourer and some have been successfully converted to 650B. What may have doomed the Heron was that Rivendell quit selling them as they brought other products online that they chose to focus on. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
on 7/26/11 6:41 AM, dan gee at dmg...@gmail.com wrote: >> I think that Rivendells are probably priced too low. > > Considering that you can get a full custom US-made bike made for a few > hundred less than any of the non-Taiwainese stock bikes, I'm going to > respectfully disagree here. Obviously people are willing to pay that > much, but those prices put Rivs out of the reach of many of us, and > there are many comparable Taiwanese options (Surly, Soma, Handsome) > that cost as little as half of what the Rivs do. Granted, with > powdercoats and without lugs, but still. > > I really with there was a modern equivalent of the Heron - something > that embodies the principles of Riv's design, but without all the > frills and decoration that would raise the price, and without all the > design oddities that limit the market. Make a mass-market all-rounder > in Taiwan, use the economies of scale to get a good price on the > manufacture, and put something in the public's hands that would be an > alternative to the carbon racing bikes that most people find > themselves steered to in bike shops. At the risk of veering this general, OT thread further off into the rough, a couple quick thoughts: Working backwards (and hopefully back towards the RBW topic of this list), US bike shops historically have been staffed by racing-oriented staff. People were steered to light, steel crit bikes before they were steered to light, carbon race bikes. It takes a decision by the owner(s) to focus on a different portion of the market, which was largely unpopular and unprofitable until recently. The Specialized Globe of ~1993 looks one heckuva lot like the various "urban" bikes being marketed now, but pretty much failed in the market when it was brought out. It wasn't a mountain bike, which at the time, made it invisible to the sales staffs. As far as the mythical all-rounder project, it's a bit tricky to hold up a model which may or may not have been profitable as benchmark. There have been companies and endeavours which have come and gone over the years, doing just that. Heron and Kogswell both come to mind. Rivendell has continued to exist and thrive. Both Surly and Soma are part of larger companies (QBP and Merry Sales) which give them a bit more flexibility of cash flow and resources than a small operation. If 50-100 bike frames they ordered don't sell, they can probably weather the lull, then close them out through a distributed dealer network, and not end up having to close up shop because of that. Perhaps there can be no modern equivilent of the Heron because it is a flawed concept (wait a second - I do really like the bikes - I'm trying to make a larger point here...). From a buyer's perspective, why pay for lugs and paint when a TIG'ed Surly can be had a bit cheaper? Or, conversely, if I'm spending "X" dollars, why not get something with a bit more going on? What I'm getting at is (IMO) the "middle" can be a dangerous place. The middle is about maximum volume, which means a ton of dealers, low profit margins and making up the difference in quantity. I think Rivendell has always focused on figuring out their core elements, honing in on that essence, then doing it better than anyone. In 1995, simply making a well designed, lugged steel road frame was an anomolie. As larger companies and smaller builders found subsequent success in that vein, it seems to me that Grant realized their core element was then and would continue to be a bit of a moving target. The designs have continued to be refined and articulated. They all ride exceedingly well, and remain versatile and unique designs. A "stock" Rivendell is not really the same as a mass-market bicycle from one of the big manufacturers. While we may not want to personally own every single model, there's more than likely one which provides something that nothing else does. If not, there certainly are other options. And we are all the richer for the diversity and resources which now exist. - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com "The bike between her legs was like some hyper-evolved alien tail she'd somehow extruded, as though over patient centuries; a sweet and intricate bone-machine, grown Lexan-armored tires, near-frictionless bearings, and gas filled shocks." William Gibson - "Virtual Light" -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
> I think that Rivendells are probably priced too low. Considering that you can get a full custom US-made bike made for a few hundred less than any of the non-Taiwainese stock bikes, I'm going to respectfully disagree here. Obviously people are willing to pay that much, but those prices put Rivs out of the reach of many of us, and there are many comparable Taiwanese options (Surly, Soma, Handsome) that cost as little as half of what the Rivs do. Granted, with powdercoats and without lugs, but still. I really with there was a modern equivalent of the Heron - something that embodies the principles of Riv's design, but without all the frills and decoration that would raise the price, and without all the design oddities that limit the market. Make a mass-market all-rounder in Taiwan, use the economies of scale to get a good price on the manufacture, and put something in the public's hands that would be an alternative to the carbon racing bikes that most people find themselves steered to in bike shops. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
Often there are costs that are "externalized" - i.e. not included in the sale price. This is the case with the cheapie bikes that are mass produced for department stores by people working in miserable conditions, for ridiculously low wages, in factories that pollute the world. All of that has a cost, but it doesn't get factored into the sale price, and people buy the stuff because it's cheap. These same market forces are in play everywhere else in our economy (buying a pair of 60 dollar MUSA shorts or a pair of 5 dollar Old Navy shorts, for instance). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/_rcFQ8zLsTwJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
It does seem impossible to disassociate what any product "should cost" - whether bicycles, widgets or cans of tomato soup - from what the consumer is able and willing to pay. Without the demand side of the equation, there would be no supply, at least not for long, and the given product would disappear from the market place. It also makes sense that the product MUST cost more than the cost to design, manufacture, distribute and market it. Without some profit incentive the product again would cease to exist. So somewhere between willingness to pay and cost-of-goods (plus some reasonable profit margin) is where I end up. All this being said, when discussing bicycles specifically, the junk being sold by mass marketers is indeed too cheap to provide that living wage to the workers who make the things or to provide a safe, reliable, fun-to-ride product for the end user. Yet they continue to sell these year after year. On the other hand, some of the carbon fiber whiz bang stuff sold at the typical LBS is way over priced in my opinion, but the retail shops themselves certainly do not make huge mark-ups and many of them struggle to stay in business. I agree with Zack that Rivs are likely priced too low, and so are the frames of most of the master craftsmen builders around. We are lucky to have folks like these who love the cycling sport and culture enough to do what they do for reasons other than pure economics. On Jul 26, 9:18 am, Zack wrote: > It should cost a price which allows the businesses that create the parts to > sustain themselves. > > I think that Rivendells are probably priced too low. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
It should cost a price which allows the businesses that create the parts to sustain themselves. I think that Rivendells are probably priced too low. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/uWZZP9Y-rE8J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
Well said Michael. -Matt On Tuesday, July 26, 2011 6:59:04 AM UTC-4, MichaelH wrote: > > I think it depends on whether it's important to you to live in a world > where workers are paid a living wage, work in a safe environment, have > access to health care and can look forward to a secure life after their > working years are over. Sometimes the "bargains" we get are with the > devil. > > michael > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/YlAY3j5ewQIJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
Not to be contrary, but I think it SHOULD cost what someone is willing to pay. In other words, both parties should be satisfied with the exchange. That's the beauty of the whole mutually beneficial economy thing. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: How much should a bike cost?
I think it depends on whether it's important to you to live in a world where workers are paid a living wage, work in a safe environment, have access to health care and can look forward to a secure life after their working years are over. Sometimes the "bargains" we get are with the devil. michael -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/OblwX5GLzl0J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
