[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-12 Thread sameness 
Some cheap flush cutters 

 
are your friend, friend.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 10:45:05 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> My biggest problem UNpacking bikes is trying to cut or twist the ties off 
> without scratching the bike.
>

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-12 Thread Joe Bernard 
I'm glad you got it resolved, and agree the packing was the problem. I was very 
reticent to do my own packing, but enough bad experiences with bike shops 
finally talked me into doing my last one by myself. 

There's a video somewhere at rivbike.com which shows frame packing, with the 
very helpful advice of using cardboard pieces in the triangle to help keep the 
shape of the box in transit. The whole process for a complete bike was a little 
daunting, but once you get the hang of how to strap the front wheel and bars to 
the frame you're on your way. Stuff has to stay put and avoid any possible 
metal-to-metal contact, and for crying out loud don't over-tighten zip-ties! My 
biggest problem UNpacking bikes is trying to cut or twist the ties off without 
scratching the bike. Annoying! 

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-12 Thread tc 
Bikeflights paid the entire damage cost estimate that the buyer and I 
agreed to.  The cost to ship the frame+fork to be repainted (hopefully Rick 
at D), and shipped back, plus the missing bolt cost, are covered by the 
Bikeflights claim payment.

Lessons learned, if you don't know the bike packer well:

   - Don't expect just any "professional bike shop" to accept 
   responsibility for a damaged bike.  The shop that packed the Sam has 
   essentially said from the beginning, "We pack a lot of bikes, and we know 
   how to do it.  Once it leaves our facility, it's not our responsibility".  
   This was said by the owner, and the manager, even though they did not 
   participate in the packing of the bike.  And I still think the inadequate 
   packing job contributed to the damage done -- not improper handling.  I 
   could be wrong, but the box showed no damage, at least not to the degree of 
   the damage done.
   - Show the BikeFlights packing instructions to the packer and ask that 
   they comply with it.  If there's an issue with that, go elsewhere.
   - Take detailed pic's or videos of the entire bike at the packer's 
   facility before you leave the bike with them.
   - Ask the packer to provide you with pictures of the packed and padded 
   bike and parts before it goes into the box


Tom

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-10 Thread Marty Gierke, Stewartstown PA 
Bill, not sure that is always the case, and I think there is fine print on most 
“contracts” that require proof of value. The one time I had something damaged 
as a seller, I had to show receipts (what I sold the item for and what it would 
cost to repair) regardless what the insured value was. In the end, that was all 
they based reimbursement on. I only insure for what the actual transaction 
value was and can be proven. I shipped a valuable painting to an auction house, 
and had to provide a certified third party appraisal to prove value should it 
have been lost or destroyed. 

If I sell and ship a thousand dollar diamond ring, and insure it for ten 
thousand, I better be prepared to prove it’s worth ten grand if the package 
goes missing. They may sell you the insurance, (maybe not) but what they pay is 
something different. At least that has been my experience. 

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-10 Thread Bill Lindsay 
Kevin asked what may have been a rhetorical question.  In general, 
insurance has little to do with the actual value of the thing you are 
insuring.  You are purchasing a contract.  If I put an object in a box and 
the shipper offers me the option to purchase insurance, I get to declare 
how much I want to pay.  If I put a bunch of dirty shop rags in a box and 
then I want to pay for $5000 of insurance, then the shipper is going to pay 
me $5000 if they lose the box.  End of story.  It had nothing to do with 
the value of the stuff in the box.  It had only to do with the value of the 
contract I chose to purchase.  I have a 10 year old Hillborne.  If I were 
to sell it, I might expect ~$1500.  If I needed to replace it, I might need 
to spend $3000 new.  So if I ship it, I likely would insure it for more 
than $1500, and might insure it for $3000.  It's not worth $3000, but if 
they lose it, I want $3000, so that is the contract I would purchase. The 
insurance company knows they are going to lose some stuff, and they are 
going to pay out damage reimbursements.  They set their rates so they 
always make money. It's like Las Vegas. The house always wins. The house 
doesn't care if you hit the jackpot and get $5000 for a lost box of rags. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 8:01:25 AM UTC-7, Kevin Mulcahy wrote:

> Is it possible to insure something for more that it's value? Doesn't make 
> sense to me. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-10 Thread alan lavine 
Sorry, that sucks.

My experience with bike shops packing bikes has not been good.  Mostly this 
has happened when I'm traveling away from home, and don't have the 
facilities to do it myself.  It's often relegated to the low person on the 
totem pole of the shop, since it requires no special skills, at least in 
their eyes.  I've had minor damage and once lost a classic Riv saddlebag 
with some great tools inside.

So if I'm home, I'll do it myself, even if I really don't enjoy the 
project.  If traveling, I would make it a point to discuss with the owner 
or manager the specific details of the job, who's going to do it, maybe 
even provide them with some store bought packing materials for the job. 
 Don't just leave it with the person behind the counterdo what you can 
to politely call attention to the job so its not routine to the shop.  No 
guarantee, but might help.

Alan
NYC

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 10:41:00 PM UTC-4, tc wrote:
>
> I guess there is a first time for everything.  The beautiful, pristine Sam 
> I sold recently was damaged by what looks like a bad packing job, and the 
> bike shop owners are pointing the finger at Fedex, even though the box 
> isn't showing any signs of being hit, penetrated, folded, creased, etc..  
>
> Never had this issue before.  I've never used this shop to ship a bike 
> before, but they have 5 locations in this area, have been around a while, 
> and are fairly popular.  They carry Santa Cruz, Specialized, Cannondale. 
> The Sam's buyer has pictures showing several areas where the paint has been 
> rubbed off down to the metal by what looks like metal-to-metal contact 
> (likely a bar-end shifter).  Foam had obviously fallen off several areas 
> leaving frame and components to rub against each other.  A zip tie 
> apparently was applied so tightly that paint was rubbed off.  The wooden 
> plug in the seat tube had fallen out, causing the paint on the point of the 
> seat lug to be rubbed off.  The seatpost collar clamp bolt is missing.  It 
> really makes me sick to think of that bike in that condition ... and of 
> course the buyer is very disappointed, this being their first Riv.
>
> All evidence points to a poor packing job, but the bike shop manager, with 
> whom the buyer and I spoke with today, said that the owners think it's 
> Fedex's issue to resolve.  I was flabbergasted, and have escalated to the 
> shop owner, who is supposed to call me to discuss.
>
> In the meantime, we're looking into Fedex claims.  Bikeflights terms and 
> conditions state very clearly that by shipping via Bikeflights, you agree 
> to pack the bike very well, per their recommendations.  I'm not sure what 
> the insurance is for except for the even worse case of the bike being 
> lost.If 
>
> I'm thinking there has to be more than one of you who has been in a 
> similar situation of dealing with finger-pointing packers vs. shippers.  
> Any recommendations for resolving?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-10 Thread Kevin Mulcahy 
Is it possible to insure something for more that it's value? Doesn't make 
sense to me. 

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-10 Thread Lester Lammers 
The shop was negligent. They packed it and I assume that you paid for the 
service. No physical damage to the box indicates the packing was not 
adequate..

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 10:41:00 PM UTC-4, tc wrote:
>
> I guess there is a first time for everything.  The beautiful, pristine Sam 
> I sold recently was damaged by what looks like a bad packing job, and the 
> bike shop owners are pointing the finger at Fedex, even though the box 
> isn't showing any signs of being hit, penetrated, folded, creased, etc..  
>
> Never had this issue before.  I've never used this shop to ship a bike 
> before, but they have 5 locations in this area, have been around a while, 
> and are fairly popular.  They carry Santa Cruz, Specialized, Cannondale. 
> The Sam's buyer has pictures showing several areas where the paint has been 
> rubbed off down to the metal by what looks like metal-to-metal contact 
> (likely a bar-end shifter).  Foam had obviously fallen off several areas 
> leaving frame and components to rub against each other.  A zip tie 
> apparently was applied so tightly that paint was rubbed off.  The wooden 
> plug in the seat tube had fallen out, causing the paint on the point of the 
> seat lug to be rubbed off.  The seatpost collar clamp bolt is missing.  It 
> really makes me sick to think of that bike in that condition ... and of 
> course the buyer is very disappointed, this being their first Riv.
>
> All evidence points to a poor packing job, but the bike shop manager, with 
> whom the buyer and I spoke with today, said that the owners think it's 
> Fedex's issue to resolve.  I was flabbergasted, and have escalated to the 
> shop owner, who is supposed to call me to discuss.
>
> In the meantime, we're looking into Fedex claims.  Bikeflights terms and 
> conditions state very clearly that by shipping via Bikeflights, you agree 
> to pack the bike very well, per their recommendations.  I'm not sure what 
> the insurance is for except for the even worse case of the bike being 
> lost.If 
>
> I'm thinking there has to be more than one of you who has been in a 
> similar situation of dealing with finger-pointing packers vs. shippers.  
> Any recommendations for resolving?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-10 Thread tc 
Bill,
Absolutely agree with making things right with the buyer.

The night I found out what had happened, I offered to take the bike back 
and refund the money.  At that time, the buyer stated they wanted to keep 
the bike, and look into getting the scratched/chipped places touched up.  
And we were both hoping the bike shop that packed it would own up and pay 
for that very reasonable solution.

I'm calling Bikeflights this morning to see what our recourse with them 
might be so that we have that in our back pocket before speaking with the 
owner of the bike shop later today.  I did purchase insurance.  Given the 
box isn't damaged, showing no signs of abuse, I don't hold much hope - but 
we'll see.

Having never had this issue before, I now regret that I did not take a full 
video or set of pictures to document the condition of the bike *at the shop 
before I left*.  I did take a video of the bike on my car rack right before 
leaving for the shop that packed it, but it was more of an overall picture 
for posterity than a detailed inventory of the condition.

Tom

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-10 Thread tc 
Joe,
Luckily there was no frame, component, nor wheel/rim damage per se ... this 
is a scratched/chipped paint issue, plus the missing bolt.

Tom

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 11:35:55 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I don't know how to resolve it legally, but all that damage didn't come 
> from a box being tossed around. The whole point of packing the bike a 
> certain way - as described on the Bike Flights site - is to protect it even 
> if something presses against the box. Metal-to-metal contact means whoever 
> packed that box was an incompetent hack. The owner owes you a new frame. 

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[RBW] Re: Packing and/or shipping bike damage: Any strategies for successful resolution?

2018-10-09 Thread Bill Lindsay 
What does the buyer want?  Does the buyer want to give you the bike back 
and get all his money back.  Does the buyer want a new, free $1400 
frameset?  Does the buyer want a couple hundred dollars to just accept that 
it's scratched.  My first recommendation is that it's on you to determine 
what it will take to make things right with your buyer.

My second recommendation is to make a BikeFlights insurance claim against 
the insurance you purchased when you decided to ship with BikeFlights.  In 
my experience, if you paid for insurance, they pay with minimal hassle. If 
you didn't buy insurance then I would expect that you would have a much 
harder time getting anything out of BikeFlights.  Everybody should buy 
insurance when shipping with BikeFlights.  Everybody should buy more 
insurance than the bike is worth.  

My personal experience was I sold a tandem for $2400.  I shipped via 
BikeFlights and I insured it for $3000.  The box was torn up badly and one 
of two parts boxes fell out, which was mortifying to me because I packed it 
myself.  I think it had to be badly manhandled for the box to be 
destroyed.  The buyer and I agreed what it would take to make it right and 
it was $800.  I made an $800 claim to replace missing parts from the lost 
parts box and BikeFlights paid that painlessly.  After that, the buyer 
decided he still wasn't happy and wanted to ding me personally for another 
$200.  I wasn't thrilled about the moving goalposts, but I paid that 
punitive adder, since it was my box that failed.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito CA

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 7:41:00 PM UTC-7, tc wrote:

> I guess there is a first time for everything.  The beautiful, pristine Sam 
> I sold recently was damaged by what looks like a bad packing job, and the 
> bike shop owners are pointing the finger at Fedex, even though the box 
> isn't showing any signs of being hit, penetrated, folded, creased, etc..  
>
> Never had this issue before.  I've never used this shop to ship a bike 
> before, but they have 5 locations in this area, have been around a while, 
> and are fairly popular.  They carry Santa Cruz, Specialized, Cannondale. 
> The Sam's buyer has pictures showing several areas where the paint has been 
> rubbed off down to the metal by what looks like metal-to-metal contact 
> (likely a bar-end shifter).  Foam had obviously fallen off several areas 
> leaving frame and components to rub against each other.  A zip tie 
> apparently was applied so tightly that paint was rubbed off.  The wooden 
> plug in the seat tube had fallen out, causing the paint on the point of the 
> seat lug to be rubbed off.  The seatpost collar clamp bolt is missing.  It 
> really makes me sick to think of that bike in that condition ... and of 
> course the buyer is very disappointed, this being their first Riv.
>
> All evidence points to a poor packing job, but the bike shop manager, with 
> whom the buyer and I spoke with today, said that the owners think it's 
> Fedex's issue to resolve.  I was flabbergasted, and have escalated to the 
> shop owner, who is supposed to call me to discuss.
>
> In the meantime, we're looking into Fedex claims.  Bikeflights terms and 
> conditions state very clearly that by shipping via Bikeflights, you agree 
> to pack the bike very well, per their recommendations.  I'm not sure what 
> the insurance is for except for the even worse case of the bike being 
> lost.If 
>
> I'm thinking there has to be more than one of you who has been in a 
> similar situation of dealing with finger-pointing packers vs. shippers.  
> Any recommendations for resolving?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>

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