[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[d2mini]

Age makes me a slower rider. lol :D

Agree with others that it's probably more handlebar related. Upright 
positions will naturally be safer and slower.
For the frame, choose on the style of riding.


On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:30:55 AM UTC-5, John W wrote:
>
> I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to 
> “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at 
> lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars. 
>
> Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety is 
> defensive cycling. 
>
> That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m 
> centering my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for 
> an enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the 
> thought of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be 
> a cyclist.” 
>
> Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much as 
> I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. I’m 
> ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar 
> choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or 
> Atlantis might fit the bill. 
>
> I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me 
> down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for 
> this task. 
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Lester Lammers]

 

> * I’m thinking either a Sam or Atlantis might fit the bill.*  
>

I believe you are on the right track. A Sam would be a bit more nimble and 
you can get the bars up. That, IMHO, is #1 for city riding. I was at my LBS 
and a local engineer crafted a periscope like gizmo that mounted on drop 
bars with a slammed stem that's supposed to be a boon in traffic. Not for 
me.

Your best bet would be to call Riv and discuss what you want with them.

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[KenP]

Hi, 
 Does anyone have any evidence that color makes a difference in 
safety?  Brighter colors=safer colors?  There was a study of motorcycle 
helmets, and the white ones have been shown to be more visible.  Lady 
pulled out in front of me a while back, she stopped and apologized said she 
did not see me.  I was wearing dark clothes; it was early, I had lights, 
That bike is green.  Does any one feel safer in silver or orange or blue?
KenP

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, John W wrote:
>
> I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to 
> “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at 
> lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars. 
>
> Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety is 
> defensive cycling. 
>
> That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m 
> centering my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for 
> an enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the 
> thought of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be 
> a cyclist.” 
>
> Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much as 
> I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. I’m 
> ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar 
> choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or 
> Atlantis might fit the bill. 
>
> I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me 
> down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for 
> this task. 
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Joe Bernard]

I don't have any stats, but I would think the bike frame is too small for color 
to make much difference, it's the rider you want to brighten up. A lot of 
riders here in Marin use orange safety vests over regular gear, which I see a 
mile away in my car. A bright helmet should help, too, although I can't bring 
myself to plop a giant orange or white lid on my large noggin ;-)

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Surlyprof]

I believe that Chartreuse is the most visible color in a refective medium (as 
opposed to projected).  That is why emergency vehicles have shifting over from 
red and other “visible” colors.  However, otange is probably way up there for 
visibility being so close to the yellows on the color spectrum.

John 
(Who rides defensively on an orange Hillborne and a lime green Brompton with a 
bright lime green helmet)

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Deacon Patrick]

I have only my own anecdotal evidence, specific for where I ride. What I’ve 
learned for visibility and safety when riding rural roads and small town 
traffic (which may or may not transfer to city riding):

— Street cloths rather than cycling specific looking cloths means drivers see 
me and respect me more. This includes colors, so I’ve shifted to my outer layer 
having red. Easily seen, not neon or “sporty.” I wear knickers, which look like 
pants and “normal” to most, if a little odd, rather than cycling specific.
— Be part of traffic to be seen. I get seen and given a wide berth (the whole 
lane) when I ride in the right wheel track of the right (usually only) lane. 
This does not apply at highway speeds, only local and backroad speeds. If the 
bike lane is 3 feet or more, I’ll use it, otherwise I’m in the traffic lane, 
right wheel.
— I smile and wave to every driver, regardless of direction. Interestingly, 
over time, more people smile and wave back and over time more people are 
looking for me, sometimes even waving first. This can get tedius with a lot of 
traffic, so I tend to wave to groups when that happens in summer.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Joe Bernard]

The waving thing is very underrated. I do a lot of eye-and-hand communicating 
with drivers to signal things like "gimme a minute, I gotta jet past this row 
of parked cars before moving right", then give a little wave of "thanks" 
afterward. I can't verify it, but I would swear the next 5-10 cars behind me 
give more room after seeing the interaction with the first one. Like, "Oh, he's 
a real person on the road out here with us, and actually understands we want to 
get through this safely, too." I think car drivers appreciate being politely 
educated on the situation the cyclist is navigating. 

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[tc]

John, hmm, slower - really?  You can always go slow on any bike -- but you 
can't always accelerate quickly, nor make quick turns (which you will need 
to do it traffic eventually) when on a bike set up in a very upright "Mary 
Poppins" mode meant just toodle around on.  

Also depends on how experienced you are riding with traffic.

Of course either Sam or Atlantis could work with an Albatross bar.  I would 
say not the Bosco (too upright, and again, comes straight back at you).  
Both of those are too narrow for me, though, and the grips come just about 
straight back.  This isn't the best hand/arm position for maneuvering on 
the road I've found for me.  I prefer a wider bar with more flare, like the 
615mm-wide Ahearn+Map 
, which I love on 
my Atlantis.  It's upright enough, while also making the bike more 
maneuverable, and just slightly more aggressive, which allows a more 
athletic position w/out moving your hands when you need to accelerate 
quickly.  I'm no speed demon by any stretch, but I when I want, or more 
importantly need, to accelerate, I want it to happen *now*.  You might also 
look into Riv's new 660mm-wide Wavie bar when they come out.  Very similar 
to the Ahearne+Map, but maybe better in that it's slightly wider, and, it 
has a wider center section on either side of the stem for another possible 
more aggressive hand position.  That center section may not be important to 
you, and would almost certainly not be that useful when riding in traffic.

Tom

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, John W wrote:
>
> I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to 
> “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at 
> lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars. 
>
> Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety is 
> defensive cycling. 
>
> That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m 
> centering my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for 
> an enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the 
> thought of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be 
> a cyclist.” 
>
> Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much as 
> I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. I’m 
> ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar 
> choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or 
> Atlantis might fit the bill. 
>
> I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me 
> down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for 
> this task. 
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Eric Karnes]

Handlebar choice is also going to depend on the type of city street you 
ride on. Center city Philly (where I ride) has tight gridded streets, lots 
of traffic, and limited bike lanes. I found a MAP bar to be much too wide, 
an Albatross to be a bit too wide, and a Velo Orange Porteur to be just 
perfect. All three give you a nice upright riding position for good 
visibility and easy reach to the brakes, but the 48mm width of the Porteur 
allows you to maneuver at low speeds through cars without knocking off side 
mirrors and such. 

My current commuter is a SimpleOne, but if I were going geared, I would 
probably lean towards a Sam. Shod it with 40mm-ish tires, get the stem up, 
and put a porteur (or your choice of upright bar) on there. 

Eric


On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 5:59:50 PM UTC-4, tc wrote:
>
> John, hmm, slower - really?  You can always go slow on any bike -- but you 
> can't always accelerate quickly, nor make quick turns (which you will need 
> to do it traffic eventually) when on a bike set up in a very upright "Mary 
> Poppins" mode meant just toodle around on.  
>
> Also depends on how experienced you are riding with traffic.
>
> Of course either Sam or Atlantis could work with an Albatross bar.  I 
> would say not the Bosco (too upright, and again, comes straight back at 
> you).  Both of those are too narrow for me, though, and the grips come just 
> about straight back.  This isn't the best hand/arm position for maneuvering 
> on the road I've found for me.  I prefer a wider bar with more flare, like 
> the 615mm-wide Ahearn+Map 
> , which I love 
> on my Atlantis.  It's upright enough, while also making the bike more 
> maneuverable, and just slightly more aggressive, which allows a more 
> athletic position w/out moving your hands when you need to accelerate 
> quickly.  I'm no speed demon by any stretch, but I when I want, or more 
> importantly need, to accelerate, I want it to happen *now*.  You might also 
> look into Riv's new 660mm-wide Wavie bar when they come out.  Very similar 
> to the Ahearne+Map, but maybe better in that it's slightly wider, and, it 
> has a wider center section on either side of the stem for another possible 
> more aggressive hand position.  That center section may not be important to 
> you, and would almost certainly not be that useful when riding in traffic.
>
> Tom
>
> On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, John W wrote:
>>
>> I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to 
>> “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at 
>> lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars. 
>>
>> Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety 
>> is defensive cycling. 
>>
>> That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m 
>> centering my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for 
>> an enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the 
>> thought of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be 
>> a cyclist.” 
>>
>> Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much as 
>> I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. I’m 
>> ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar 
>> choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or 
>> Atlantis might fit the bill. 
>>
>> I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me 
>> down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for 
>> this task. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Ron Mc]

Any riding position that adds weight to the rear wheel slows you down. . If 
you want to demonstrate this (we start a 7-mile sprint every Sunday morning 
down a 2-mile hill), free-coast with your friends down a hill.  The more 
weight you get on the front wheel, the more efficiently you'll roll.  

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[phil k]

I tend to agree, but in a great section of DC with a lot of bike lanes 
yesterday, a cyclist almost got hit by a car running a red light.

John, I think you'll be happy with any Riv for your purposes. Now it's just 
about what ride characteristics you like in a bike.

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:58:45 AM UTC-4, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>
> 1) I believe your premise to be faulty. In my experience safety for 
> cyclists in the city comes from good infrastructure, then driver awareness 
> then cyclist behavior.
>
> 2) Any Riv where your hands are above the saddle will give you the relaxed 
> feeling you seek. I ride a Saluki with MAP bars and can ride both relaxed 
> and aggressive. The same bike with drop bars set fairly high gave me a 
> similar feeling. I feel as if the Sam or the AHH are the perfect gateway 
> bikes. I personally cannot get along with the angle that Albatross and 
> Billie bars demand my wrists to be at. So I would either wait for the 
> Wavvvie Gravy bar or buy the Billie/Albatross build kit and then put a 
> bar with a less parallel to the top tube angle allowing you to reuse stem, 
> shifters, etc. 
>
> -J
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Madam Xylene]

I notice when I’m in more street type clothes (compass knickers)usually with 
bright knee socks on my big upright cheviut cars stop or yield to me more. For 
darkness I have lots of reflective tape on fenders and frame plus lights  and 
wear reflective vest.
Eileen 

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Deacon Patrick]

“Any riding position that adds weight to the rear wheel slows you down. . If 
you want to demonstrate this (we start a 7-mile sprint every Sunday morning 
down a 2-mile hill), free-coast with your friends down a hill.  The more weight 
you get on the front wheel, the more efficiently you'll roll.”

Ron, you sure wind resistance doesn’t explain most or all of the the effeciency 
roll test? Have you tried shifting your weight back AND staying in a deep tuck?

With abandon,
Patrick, who appreciates the air brake effect on fixed gear downhills, and also 
the rear weighted tuck into headwind descents on loose stuff.  

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Steven Seelig]

I live in DC, and my city bike is a Ram, as pictured.  Sure its a bit 
lighter and perhaps racier than the other bikes noted, but it is the bike 
best suited for all situations for me.  What makes it a City bike is 
perhaps the thing that does not make it a country bike - the grips and the 
brakes are in the same place at the end of the bars.  There is no "other" 
racier hand position to take, because the trade-off is that my brake handle 
and shifter are always nearby.  There is never a question of needing the 
shift positions or worry about my current position in the event of an 
emergency, or which there are about one every 30 seconds in the City.  

The pizza rack in front also denotes city bike because I can actually grab 
a pizza on my way home, or tote whatever I might need from the local 
market.  I also get to go pretty fast when I want to or can.  Keeping up 
with traffic is pretty important to me when possible, so having a bike that 
can get to 20 mph (okay with a downhill) is important to me.

Your mileage may vary.

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, John W wrote:
>
> I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to 
> “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at 
> lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars. 
>
> Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety is 
> defensive cycling. 
>
> That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m 
> centering my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for 
> an enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the 
> thought of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be 
> a cyclist.” 
>
> Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much as 
> I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. I’m 
> ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar 
> choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or 
> Atlantis might fit the bill. 
>
> I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me 
> down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for 
> this task. 
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[lambbo]

CHEVIUT
2 or 3 Bells
Boscos
38's with fenders
Constantly running front and back running lights via Dynamo hub

This is my NYC rig and it couldn't be safer or more fun, IMO.

Step-Thru adding to safety shouldn't be overlooked...every time I have to 
slam the brakes and put my feet on the ground I'm thankful. 

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Ron Mc]

totally 100% sure on this one Deac.  

On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 1:28:42 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> “Any riding position that adds weight to the rear wheel slows you down. . 
> If you want to demonstrate this (we start a 7-mile sprint every Sunday 
> morning down a 2-mile hill), free-coast with your friends down a hill.  The 
> more weight you get on the front wheel, the more efficiently you'll roll.” 
>
> Ron, you sure wind resistance doesn’t explain most or all of the the 
> effeciency roll test? Have you tried shifting your weight back AND staying 
> in a deep tuck? 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick, who appreciates the air brake effect on fixed gear downhills, and 
> also the rear weighted tuck into headwind descents on loose stuff.  

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Ron Mc]

Deac, I'll add that you get the effect even when you have a tailwind that's 
out gunning you, and you're making yourself a smaller sail by getting more 
weight up front.  

On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 2:52:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> totally 100% sure on this one Deac.  
>
> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 1:28:42 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> “Any riding position that adds weight to the rear wheel slows you down. . 
>> If you want to demonstrate this (we start a 7-mile sprint every Sunday 
>> morning down a 2-mile hill), free-coast with your friends down a hill.  The 
>> more weight you get on the front wheel, the more efficiently you'll roll.” 
>>
>> Ron, you sure wind resistance doesn’t explain most or all of the the 
>> effeciency roll test? Have you tried shifting your weight back AND staying 
>> in a deep tuck? 
>>
>> With abandon, 
>> Patrick, who appreciates the air brake effect on fixed gear downhills, 
>> and also the rear weighted tuck into headwind descents on loose stuff.  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Ron Mc]

the torque of pedaling transfers weight to the rear (think about rear squat 
when you accelerate a car).  Anything you can do to get weight up front 
makes you roll more efficiently.  When you're pedaling hard, you get a core 
muscle advantage, also, and I beat John in last Sunday's sprint in the last 
quarter-mile getting way forward on the drops (maybe only the 4th time I've 
beaten him).  
But in the simplest free-roll comparison when nobody has enough speed for 
aerodynamics to matter, you see an instant effect getting weight up front.  

On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 2:56:48 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Deac, I'll add that you get the effect even when you have a tailwind 
> that's out gunning you, and you're making yourself a smaller sail by 
> getting more weight up front.  
>
> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 2:52:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> totally 100% sure on this one Deac.  
>>
>> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 1:28:42 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> “Any riding position that adds weight to the rear wheel slows you down. 
>>> . If you want to demonstrate this (we start a 7-mile sprint every Sunday 
>>> morning down a 2-mile hill), free-coast with your friends down a hill.  The 
>>> more weight you get on the front wheel, the more efficiently you'll roll.” 
>>>
>>> Ron, you sure wind resistance doesn’t explain most or all of the the 
>>> effeciency roll test? Have you tried shifting your weight back AND staying 
>>> in a deep tuck? 
>>>
>>> With abandon, 
>>> Patrick, who appreciates the air brake effect on fixed gear downhills, 
>>> and also the rear weighted tuck into headwind descents on loose stuff.  
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Ron. There’s a reason I only race trees. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick 

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Ron Mc]

I had a strong week, finishing out 120 mi with the available time, and been 
working on my cooling since the oppressive humidity arrived about a month 
ago.  
It's kind of an unwritten rule when we start out and coast down the long 
grade, nobody pedals until it goes flat, and if they do, they become an 
instant target.  Normal group is 30 to 40 riders.  We naturally break into 
groups by pace, and the lead group breaks out going into downtown for the 
final sprint across Chavez to the Alamodome.  


It's a fun outing among friends, and we go for coffee afterwards.  Aside 
from the friends, a big part of what makes this so fun is downtown streets 
are virtually deserted on Sunday mornings at 7am, and when you get into the 
downtown blocks, 20 mph clicks all the lights same as cars.  .  


On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 3:29:43 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Thanks, Ron. There’s a reason I only race trees. Grin. 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick 

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Garth]

Safety and well being ... like Health ... isn't "made" , it just IS what IS 
is.. it's as natural as natural can be.  It cannot even be expressed in 
any words .  How do you express "Infinity" in words  ?Hah !   It 
doesn't matter of course  the end is the same as the beginning, the 
first the same as the last, here the same as there  everywhere and 
no-where   All is Each and Each is All.   *Awesomethin' wonderful !* 
   

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Visibility is certainly a good idea. I like to wear one of those 
construction worker vests when I commute; they are generally better made 
and cheaper than the cycling specific visibility vests. 
But I don't necessarily subscribe to the "lower-than-average-speeds" 
approach. For most close quarters city riding, I generally prefer getting 
in the traffic stream whenever possible--it's much safer than hugging 
parked cars and letting trucks whiz by you, hoping nobody opens a door. 
Defensive sure, but riding timidly in traffic has its own pitfalls. 
Assertive but friendly. Predictable but expecting other to be 
unpredictable. Scanning ahead and occasionally behind. Not worrying too 
much about safety but generally obeying traffic rules. Enjoying your senses.

I favor a step-through or mixte frame with upright bars, wider tires, flat 
pedals, some combo of rack, basket, panniers, bell, lights, fenders, rear 
view mirror. So in the Riv line-up a Cheviot or a Clem L. Otherwise a mixte 
or women's frame with the aforementioned components and accessories.

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, John W wrote:
>
> I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to 
> “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at 
> lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars. 
>
> Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety is 
> defensive cycling. 
>
> That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m 
> centering my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for 
> an enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the 
> thought of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be 
> a cyclist.” 
>
> Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much as 
> I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. I’m 
> ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar 
> choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or 
> Atlantis might fit the bill. 
>
> I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me 
> down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for 
> this task. 
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Oops! Forgot my favorite safety accessory. I've purchased a few of these 
from Rivendell over the years:




On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 6:40:12 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Visibility is certainly a good idea.
>

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[RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Kainalu V.]

Ron and Patrick- When I was a kid my dad (a physicist who worked as an engineer 
for M.I.T.'s Lincoln Laboratory for 50 years) told me to watch closely how my 
pinewood derby car acted during the big race. He explained before hand that my 
car, with it's weight pushed as far back as we could get it, would be behind 
the pack at the bottom of the ramp but would certainly win on the flat. It did 
every time and I walked away with the victory that day. So yes, weight forward 
or centered wins on the downhill, but if you want to have an easy fast coast 
through the flats you want that weight out back. A pannier system that 
relocated the load depending on level would be nice, but way off topic... 
As far as the topic is concerned, what Mark said about mixtes and keeping with 
the flow of traffic is spot on.
-Kai 
BKNY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I agree.  I like to wave my thanks and give thumbs up.  I think the more
the drivers see you as a person instead of an object on the road (a bike),
the more respect and patience you will receive.

Toshi


On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 11:44 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> The waving thing is very underrated. I do a lot of eye-and-hand
> communicating with drivers to signal things like "gimme a minute, I gotta
> jet past this row of parked cars before moving right", then give a little
> wave of "thanks" afterward. I can't verify it, but I would swear the next
> 5-10 cars behind me give more room after seeing the interaction with the
> first one. Like, "Oh, he's a real person on the road out here with us, and
> actually understands we want to get through this safely, too." I think car
> drivers appreciate being politely educated on the situation the cyclist is
> navigating.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[John Woo]

Eric, you bring up a good point. 

I don’t weave around cars per se but the sharrows are narrow where I am. 

What about the Nitto B302 All Rounder bars? 49cm wide, 65mm rise? Are they a 
popular choice?

John 

> On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:39 PM, Eric Karnes  wrote:
> 
> Handlebar choice is also going to depend on the type of city street you ride 
> on. Center city Philly (where I ride) has tight gridded streets, lots of 
> traffic, and limited bike lanes. I found a MAP bar to be much too wide, an 
> Albatross to be a bit too wide, and a Velo Orange Porteur to be just perfect. 
> All three give you a nice upright riding position for good visibility and 
> easy reach to the brakes, but the 48mm width of the Porteur allows you to 
> maneuver at low speeds through cars without knocking off side mirrors and 
> such. 
> 
> My current commuter is a SimpleOne, but if I were going geared, I would 
> probably lean towards a Sam. Shod it with 40mm-ish tires, get the stem up, 
> and put a porteur (or your choice of upright bar) on there. 
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
>> On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 5:59:50 PM UTC-4, tc wrote:
>> John, hmm, slower - really?  You can always go slow on any bike -- but you 
>> can't always accelerate quickly, nor make quick turns (which you will need 
>> to do it traffic eventually) when on a bike set up in a very upright "Mary 
>> Poppins" mode meant just toodle around on.  
>> 
>> Also depends on how experienced you are riding with traffic.
>> 
>> Of course either Sam or Atlantis could work with an Albatross bar.  I would 
>> say not the Bosco (too upright, and again, comes straight back at you).  
>> Both of those are too narrow for me, though, and the grips come just about 
>> straight back.  This isn't the best hand/arm position for maneuvering on the 
>> road I've found for me.  I prefer a wider bar with more flare, like the 
>> 615mm-wide Ahearn+Map, which I love on my Atlantis.  It's upright enough, 
>> while also making the bike more maneuverable, and just slightly more 
>> aggressive, which allows a more athletic position w/out moving your hands 
>> when you need to accelerate quickly.  I'm no speed demon by any stretch, but 
>> I when I want, or more importantly need, to accelerate, I want it to happen 
>> *now*.  You might also look into Riv's new 660mm-wide Wavie bar when they 
>> come out.  Very similar to the Ahearne+Map, but maybe better in that it's 
>> slightly wider, and, it has a wider center section on either side of the 
>> stem for another possible more aggressive hand position.  That center 
>> section may not be important to you, and would almost certainly not be that 
>> useful when riding in traffic.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>>> On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, John W wrote:
>>> I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to 
>>> “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at 
>>> lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars. 
>>> 
>>> Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety is 
>>> defensive cycling. 
>>> 
>>> That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m centering 
>>> my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for an 
>>> enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the thought 
>>> of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be a 
>>> cyclist.” 
>>> 
>>> Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much as 
>>> I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. I’m 
>>> ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar 
>>> choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or 
>>> Atlantis might fit the bill. 
>>> 
>>> I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me 
>>> down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for 
>>> this task. 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Eric Karnes]

I've used them. Porteur bars with inverse levers are my first choice (the 
angles just feel good to me), but the B302s are nice.

Eric


On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 7:58:37 PM UTC-4, John W wrote:
>
> Eric, you bring up a good point. 
>
> I don’t weave around cars per se but the sharrows are narrow where I am. 
>
> What about the Nitto B302 All Rounder bars? 49cm wide, 65mm rise? Are they 
> a popular choice?
>
> John 
>
> On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:39 PM, Eric Karnes > 
> wrote:
>
> Handlebar choice is also going to depend on the type of city street you 
> ride on. Center city Philly (where I ride) has tight gridded streets, lots 
> of traffic, and limited bike lanes. I found a MAP bar to be much too wide, 
> an Albatross to be a bit too wide, and a Velo Orange Porteur to be just 
> perfect. All three give you a nice upright riding position for good 
> visibility and easy reach to the brakes, but the 48mm width of the Porteur 
> allows you to maneuver at low speeds through cars without knocking off side 
> mirrors and such. 
>
> My current commuter is a SimpleOne, but if I were going geared, I would 
> probably lean towards a Sam. Shod it with 40mm-ish tires, get the stem up, 
> and put a porteur (or your choice of upright bar) on there. 
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 5:59:50 PM UTC-4, tc wrote:
>>
>> John, hmm, slower - really?  You can always go slow on any bike -- but 
>> you can't always accelerate quickly, nor make quick turns (which you will 
>> need to do it traffic eventually) when on a bike set up in a very upright 
>> "Mary Poppins" mode meant just toodle around on.  
>>
>> Also depends on how experienced you are riding with traffic.
>>
>> Of course either Sam or Atlantis could work with an Albatross bar.  I 
>> would say not the Bosco (too upright, and again, comes straight back at 
>> you).  Both of those are too narrow for me, though, and the grips come just 
>> about straight back.  This isn't the best hand/arm position for maneuvering 
>> on the road I've found for me.  I prefer a wider bar with more flare, like 
>> the 615mm-wide Ahearn+Map 
>> , which I love 
>> on my Atlantis.  It's upright enough, while also making the bike more 
>> maneuverable, and just slightly more aggressive, which allows a more 
>> athletic position w/out moving your hands when you need to accelerate 
>> quickly.  I'm no speed demon by any stretch, but I when I want, or more 
>> importantly need, to accelerate, I want it to happen *now*.  You might also 
>> look into Riv's new 660mm-wide Wavie bar when they come out.  Very similar 
>> to the Ahearne+Map, but maybe better in that it's slightly wider, and, it 
>> has a wider center section on either side of the stem for another possible 
>> more aggressive hand position.  That center section may not be important to 
>> you, and would almost certainly not be that useful when riding in traffic.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, John W wrote:
>>>
>>> I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to 
>>> “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at 
>>> lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars. 
>>>
>>> Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety 
>>> is defensive cycling. 
>>>
>>> That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m 
>>> centering my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for 
>>> an enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the 
>>> thought of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be 
>>> a cyclist.” 
>>>
>>> Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much 
>>> as I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. 
>>> I’m ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar 
>>> choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or 
>>> Atlantis might fit the bill. 
>>>
>>> I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me 
>>> down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for 
>>> this task. 
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[John Woo]

I like Justin’s suggestion of the AHH. Or maybe the Atlantis, MIT, as I would 
fit in the 650b range for both. 

Thanks everyone. I’ve been mulling over a frame for almost a year now, and it’s 
funny how different life circumstances along the way have changed it all. Good 
thing I’m not wealthy... I’d easily have three frames by now. 

As I’ve worn through clothing I’ve gradually replaced them with hi-vis. And I 
started to use day running lights. I’m just trying to eek everything out of “it 
all helps.”

John 

> On Jun 4, 2018, at 8:44 AM, phil k  wrote:
> 
> I tend to agree, but in a great section of DC with a lot of bike lanes 
> yesterday, a cyclist almost got hit by a car running a red light.
> 
> John, I think you'll be happy with any Riv for your purposes. Now it's just 
> about what ride characteristics you like in a bike.
> 
>> On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:58:45 AM UTC-4, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>> 1) I believe your premise to be faulty. In my experience safety for cyclists 
>> in the city comes from good infrastructure, then driver awareness then 
>> cyclist behavior.
>> 2) Any Riv where your hands are above the saddle will give you the relaxed 
>> feeling you seek. I ride a Saluki with MAP bars and can ride both relaxed 
>> and aggressive. The same bike with drop bars set fairly high gave me a 
>> similar feeling. I feel as if the Sam or the AHH are the perfect gateway 
>> bikes. I personally cannot get along with the angle that Albatross and 
>> Billie bars demand my wrists to be at. So I would either wait for the 
>> Wavvvie Gravy bar or buy the Billie/Albatross build kit and then put a 
>> bar with a less parallel to the top tube angle allowing you to reuse stem, 
>> shifters, etc.
>> 
>> -J
>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Ron Mc]

separate from my bike lighting, I have a Light & Motion Imjun on my helmet



I turn it on at wary intersections to look at drivers - from their reaction 
to the light, I know what they're going to do


On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 8:34:26 AM UTC-5, John W wrote:
>
> I like Justin’s suggestion of the AHH. Or maybe the Atlantis, MIT, as I 
> would fit in the 650b range for both. 
>
> Thanks everyone. I’ve been mulling over a frame for almost a year now, and 
> it’s funny how different life circumstances along the way have changed it 
> all. Good thing I’m not wealthy... I’d easily have three frames by now. 
>
> As I’ve worn through clothing I’ve gradually replaced them with hi-vis. 
> And I started to use day running lights. I’m just trying to eek everything 
> out of “it all helps.”
>
> John 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[Ron Mc]

oops - Light & Motion Imjin

On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 8:59:22 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> separate from my bike lighting, I have a Light & Motion Imjun on my helmet
>
> 
>
> I turn it on at wary intersections to look at drivers - from their 
> reaction to the light, I know what they're going to do
>
>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[John Woo]

Love your pannier. Looks like you could fit at least a week of groceries in 
there. 


> On Jun 5, 2018, at 8:54 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> Oops! Forgot my favorite safety accessory. I've purchased a few of these from 
> Rivendell over the years:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 6:40:12 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>> Visibility is certainly a good idea.
> 
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