Re: [RBW] Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[René Sterental]

Reed, I had a custom fork made for my Hunqapillar. That's how I converted
it to low trail.

René

On Thursday, June 16, 2016, Reed Kennedy  wrote:

> Hey René, are you sure about the 40mm trail on the Hunqapillar? This image
> on Riv's site:
> http://www.rivbike.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/WFHunq62.jpg
> (From the Hunq page: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-hunqapillar.htm )
> Seems to indicate a massive-sounding 67.3mm trail. Or is that talking
> about some other sort of trail, or measuring it differently?
>
> I'd assumed that my Hunqapillar borders on being quite-high-trail. But if
> it really is 40mm and the others we've been talking about are but 1cm less,
> well, that doesn't seem like so much...
>
> Would you mind letting me know where you found the 40mm number for the
> Hunq?
>
>
> Best,
> Reed
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 2:07 PM, René Sterental  > wrote:
>
>> Hi Garth,
>>
>> After my extensive research and e-mail exchanges with Jan, plus my
>> experience with my Atlantis & Hunqapillar, for upright riding, the low
>> trail target should be 40mm. The Rando bikes depicted usually have around
>> 29mm of trail, meant for more forward positioning/fast riding with lower
>> handlebars.
>>
>> The Atlantis/Hunqapillar have 40mm of trail and ride very well loaded and
>> unloaded; riding them loaded is amazingly nice.
>>
>> For my custom, I requested 35mm of trail to have a bit more of the "pure
>> low trail" characteristics and also because i'm now riding with my bars
>> almost level with my saddle.
>>
>> Still, if in doubt, 40mm seems to be the magical most versatile low trail
>> number to go for. And all caveats about getting used to what you ride apply.
>>
>> Also, the difference in handling between 30 and 40mm of trail is much
>> less than the difference between 40 and 55, according to Jan's articles.
>>
>> René
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:29 AM, Garth > > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>   While I see lots about low trail bikes with drop bars , I have not
>>> heard/seen much about riding on low trail bikes with long sloping top
>>> tubes(6+ degrees) and high bars(at least above the saddle height).
>>> Basically a much higher center of gravity than a drop bar bike.  A recent
>>> blug post GP mentioned something about this not being so desirable but did
>>> not elaborate.
>>>
>>>So basically I'm wondering how a Bombadil or Hunq would be with Alba
>>> type bars at least couple inches above the saddle would be ?
>>>
>>> I've considered another Bombadil or even a Hunq type frame but I need
>>> more front foot-tire/fender clearance than either stock bike offers in
>>> 60+cm. frames.  I could do this by either going to a low trail design
>>> and/or 650b wheels but I have no idea how it would ride.
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Ryan Fleming]

OT on the trail...but I love that playing card suit crankset that green 
bike is rocking

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 12:46:16 AM UTC-5, James Chang wrote:
>
> Hi Reed,
>
> I've got both.  A stouty Riv custom and a flexy low trial.  Both I love.  
> They certainly feel different but 10 minutes on either and any difference 
> fads away.  Do appreciate low trial with a front load though.  The Riv is 
> nice with a saddle bag but if the load is heavy it's kind of a drag when 
> I'm out of the saddle climbing.
>
> James Chang
> Taipei, Taiwan
> [image: image1.JPG][image: image2.JPG]
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:51 AM, René Sterental  > wrote:
>
>> FWIW, I converted two Rivendell bikes to low trail forks and liked them 
>> better that way, one I sold (Hunqapillar) and the other one I'm keeping 
>> (Atlantis). I preferred their handling vs. the original handling because I 
>> wanted front loads, and in the case of the Atlantis, because it shimmied 
>> for me with a rear load. Now it doesn't.
>>
>> I love the handling of the Homer and the Betty in their original 
>> geometries, but don't front load them other than a super light load 
>> (wallet, phone, glasses). My upcoming custom is low trail 650b, but not a 
>> Randonneur geometry.
>>
>> While you can probably get used to anything, it's when you've compared 
>> and liked something more, where the decision to invest to go that way or 
>> stay the way you are comes into play.
>>
>> You can search the forum for my past lengthy posts if you're interested. 
>>
>> René 
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016, jeffrey kane  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Reed -- there has been a near endless run of low vs not-low discussions 
>>> here and on the iBob and the 650b list. I feel like I've read them all and 
>>> agonized over the damn concept myself for years. But I've never seen a more 
>>> sensible and succinct assessment of the whole thing than these quickly 
>>> punched out 9 posts above. Bill L nailed it one way, Evan B pretty much 
>>> said what GP himself has been saying forever, which, is you can probably 
>>> get used to anything given some time and Steve P knows his stuff and has 
>>> real experience with some pretty darn nice bikes.
>>>
>>> Me, I've got only this to add: having bounced through 5 similar yet 
>>> different 650b rides in the last six years (2 typical trail Rivs, a V/O low 
>>> trail and now 2 Jeff Lyon even lower trail bikes) I'd say that there can be 
>>> some unpredictable bike-to-bike variations in performance that don't just 
>>> fall in line with the "spread sheet" of expectations. Why? I have no idea 
>>> but I have a Saluki that does not play well front loaded and Bleriot that 
>>> does (yet, supposedly they are super close in geo). The V/O worked nicely 
>>> but didn't incite much passion, The 2 Lyon's: one with drops and the other 
>>> with uprights exhibit somewhat different tendencies, which, I suppose, 
>>> speaks to the bar choice and riding position. 
>>>
>>> I ended up on flexy front loading low-trail rides though ... and I don't 
>>> see myself going back. Maybe I'll go in another direction altogether but 
>>> for now, I couldn't be happier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 6:24:31 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:

 I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
 their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently 
 I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts 
 on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole 
 alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be 
 characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and 
 carrying 
 loads up front.

 I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common. 

 Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid 
 frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of 
 bike? What did you think of each?


 Reed

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>
>

Re: [RBW] Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Evan Baird]

Do you know the axle to crown length for the Atlantis forks? I want to try to 
get a batch of 50 or so 26er conversions made, but I wasnt sure if those were 
shorter/longer than the OX1s. I realize that it's probably not a sustainable 
product, but there seems to be more Atlanti owners who have/want to experiment 
with this. Otherwise I was just going to get 1 1/8 for the LHT/Saga

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Re: [RBW] Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[René Sterental]

FWIW, I converted two Rivendell bikes to low trail forks and liked them
better that way, one I sold (Hunqapillar) and the other one I'm keeping
(Atlantis). I preferred their handling vs. the original handling because I
wanted front loads, and in the case of the Atlantis, because it shimmied
for me with a rear load. Now it doesn't.

I love the handling of the Homer and the Betty in their original
geometries, but don't front load them other than a super light load
(wallet, phone, glasses). My upcoming custom is low trail 650b, but not a
Randonneur geometry.

While you can probably get used to anything, it's when you've compared and
liked something more, where the decision to invest to go that way or stay
the way you are comes into play.

You can search the forum for my past lengthy posts if you're interested.

René

On Tuesday, June 14, 2016, jeffrey kane  wrote:

> Reed -- there has been a near endless run of low vs not-low discussions
> here and on the iBob and the 650b list. I feel like I've read them all and
> agonized over the damn concept myself for years. But I've never seen a more
> sensible and succinct assessment of the whole thing than these quickly
> punched out 9 posts above. Bill L nailed it one way, Evan B pretty much
> said what GP himself has been saying forever, which, is you can probably
> get used to anything given some time and Steve P knows his stuff and has
> real experience with some pretty darn nice bikes.
>
> Me, I've got only this to add: having bounced through 5 similar yet
> different 650b rides in the last six years (2 typical trail Rivs, a V/O low
> trail and now 2 Jeff Lyon even lower trail bikes) I'd say that there can be
> some unpredictable bike-to-bike variations in performance that don't just
> fall in line with the "spread sheet" of expectations. Why? I have no idea
> but I have a Saluki that does not play well front loaded and Bleriot that
> does (yet, supposedly they are super close in geo). The V/O worked nicely
> but didn't incite much passion, The 2 Lyon's: one with drops and the other
> with uprights exhibit somewhat different tendencies, which, I suppose,
> speaks to the bar choice and riding position.
>
> I ended up on flexy front loading low-trail rides though ... and I don't
> see myself going back. Maybe I'll go in another direction altogether but
> for now, I couldn't be happier.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 6:24:31 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of
>> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently
>> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts
>> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole
>> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be
>> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying
>> loads up front.
>>
>> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common.
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid
>> frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of
>> bike? What did you think of each?
>>
>>
>> Reed
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Steve Palincsar]

The MAP is 650Bx42, and a 59 or 60 cm frame depending on how you 
measure.  The VO is 700x32C.  What I think of it is, it's fantastic.  
I'm sure Mitch's 700C randonneurs are as well.  I am happy to have both, 
and would replace either if something terrible happened to it.



On 06/14/2016 08:01 PM, Reed Kennedy wrote:
On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:


On 06/14/2016 06:23 PM, Reed Kennedy wrote:

I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning
several of their bikes and numerous others built up in
Riv-inspired ways. Recently I've been reading through back
issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts on Jan Heine's
blog. It's got me wondering about this whole
alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which
seems to be characterized by low trail steering geometry,
flexible frames, and carrying loads up front.

I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common.

Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly
rigid frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French
rando / Jan sort of bike? What did you think of each?


Yes indeed.  I sold a Rambouillet to get a Johnny Coast-built Velo
Orange Randonneur, and I sold a Saluki to get one of Mitch Pryor's
MAP Randonneurs.  In each case I went from OS Riv tubing and high
trail geometry to standard diameter thinner gauge and low trail
geometry.  I liked the Rivs, but I like the "BQ style" bikes a lot
better.


Great feedback, thanks Steve!

Mind if I ask what you think of the MAP Randonneur, and which wheel 
size yours is in? I've actually found a used Map Randonneur in my size 
and for sale near me. I'm awfully tempted, but had been hoping for a 
650 x 42 wheel and tire, and this one is set up for 700 x 32.





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Re: [RBW] Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Reed Kennedy]

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
> On 06/14/2016 06:23 PM, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
>> I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of
>> their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently
>> I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts
>> on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole
>> alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be
>> characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying
>> loads up front.
>>
>> I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common.
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid
>> frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of
>> bike? What did you think of each?
>>
>
> Yes indeed.  I sold a Rambouillet to get a Johnny Coast-built Velo Orange
> Randonneur, and I sold a Saluki to get one of Mitch Pryor's MAP
> Randonneurs.  In each case I went from OS Riv tubing and high trail
> geometry to standard diameter thinner gauge and low trail geometry.  I
> liked the Rivs, but I like the "BQ style" bikes a lot better.


Great feedback, thanks Steve!

Mind if I ask what you think of the MAP Randonneur, and which wheel size
yours is in? I've actually found a used Map Randonneur in my size and for
sale near me. I'm awfully tempted, but had been hoping for a 650 x 42 wheel
and tire, and this one is set up for 700 x 32.


Best,
Reed


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Re: [RBW] Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/14/2016 06:23 PM, Reed Kennedy wrote:
I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of 
their bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. 
Recently I've been reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, 
and back posts on Jan Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this 
whole alternate-universe practical bike thing he describes, which 
seems to be characterized by low trail steering geometry, flexible 
frames, and carrying loads up front.


I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common.

Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid 
frame, carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort 
of bike? What did you think of each?





Yes indeed.  I sold a Rambouillet to get a Johnny Coast-built Velo 
Orange Randonneur, and I sold a Saluki to get one of Mitch Pryor's MAP 
Randonneurs.  In each case I went from OS Riv tubing and high trail 
geometry to standard diameter thinner gauge and low trail geometry.  I 
liked the Rivs, but I like the "BQ style" bikes a lot better.


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[RBW] Thoughts on the whole low trail thing?

[Reed Kennedy]

I've been a Rivvy sorta guy for the last ten years, owning several of their
bikes and numerous others built up in Riv-inspired ways. Recently I've been
reading through back issues of Bicycle Quarterly, and back posts on Jan
Heine's blog. It's got me wondering about this whole alternate-universe
practical bike thing he describes, which seems to be characterized by low
trail steering geometry, flexible frames, and carrying loads up front.

I'd love to try it, but such bikes aren't exactly common.

Does anyone have experience with both Rivvy (mid-trail, burly rigid frame,
carrying stuff all over) and the more French rando / Jan sort of bike? What
did you think of each?


Reed

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