Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Piaw Na]

Doesn't seem very circular to me if almost all the extra material went into 
height instead of width. :-)  I guess that's what I get for running 
Velocity Aerohead rims which are narrower than current fashion.

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 9:57:44 AM UTC-7 lconley wrote:

> Bicycle tires are basically circles in cross section, as the tire gets 
> wider it also gets taller. The width of the rim will impact the width to a 
> certain degree, but not the height. Modern car tires a more like rectangles 
> where the width and height are independent of one another.
>
> Laing
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 12:51:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> I went back and measured the height of my tires, and discovered that 
>> indeed, the tires were 8mm taller on the Roadini than on my touring bike. 
>> It's very strange, since these were nominally 700x28 or 700x30mm tires, but 
>> measured only 27mm wide on the rims. I guess all the extra material on 
>> "wider" tires went into raising the height of the tire (which is 
>> undesirable) as opposed to increasing the width of the tire (which was what 
>> I expected). Does this continue as you increase tire size? For instance, if 
>> I got a 700x38mm tire, would I expect to it to end up being only 30mm wide, 
>> but end up adding another 1cm to the height of the bike?
>>
>> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 8:18:29 PM UTC-7 Philip Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> Without arguing against BB drop affecting handling and the perception of 
>>> handling, I can’t see how stack can make a bike feel or ride “tall,” IF the 
>>> bars are level with the saddle. I think the shorter reach makes you sit up, 
>>> raising your head and giving you a narrower base (ass to grips) which I 
>>> think might degrade balance on the bike. I’m much less “in” the bike on a 
>>> smaller bike, even with the saddle and grips up. Jim Bronson also says his 
>>> “tall” bike gives him a much more upright posture.
>>>
>>> The reason I think reach drives the “tall” feeling more than stack: In 
>>> my mind’s eye I can put my hands on the bars, and the bike can grow or 
>>> shrink vertically and the stem and seatpost can make up the difference. My 
>>> position on the bike stays the same. If, however, I shrink the top 
>>> tube, my hands move back towards my hips and my head and CG move up. 
>>>
>>> I like to measure my bikes saddle-center to grip-center, rather than 
>>> saddle-tip to steerer-center.
>>>
>>> Philip
>>> Sonoma County, Calif
>>>
>>> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 5:47:59 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>

> I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB 
> drop.  I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm 
> Roadini is a bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam 
> that 
> stem! :)
> If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and 
> get a deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it 
> arrives, 
> and off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55? 
>  
>
>>
>>>
 I went and measured the stack and reach on both bikes. Turns out my 
 touring bike actually has a higher stack (71.8cm measured from BB to 
 handlebar hood) and reach (45cm measured from BB to handlebar stem 
 center), 
 while the Roadini had 68.58cm and 41.91cm on both of those measurements. 
 What is significant is that the BB height on the touring bike is 10.5" 
 while the BB height on the Roadini is 11", which is a 1.3cm difference. I 
 guess I can definitely feel a 13mm difference in center of gravity shift, 
 5mm of which is accounted for by the BB drop difference, and then other 
 8mm 
 is accounted for by the bigger tires (which is strange since the 
 difference 
 between tires is basically going from 25mm to 30mm tires, but 3mm 
 difference might be within the margin of error)

>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[lconley]

Bicycle tires are basically circles in cross section, as the tire gets 
wider it also gets taller. The width of the rim will impact the width to a 
certain degree, but not the height. Modern car tires a more like rectangles 
where the width and height are independent of one another.

Laing

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 12:51:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> I went back and measured the height of my tires, and discovered that 
> indeed, the tires were 8mm taller on the Roadini than on my touring bike. 
> It's very strange, since these were nominally 700x28 or 700x30mm tires, but 
> measured only 27mm wide on the rims. I guess all the extra material on 
> "wider" tires went into raising the height of the tire (which is 
> undesirable) as opposed to increasing the width of the tire (which was what 
> I expected). Does this continue as you increase tire size? For instance, if 
> I got a 700x38mm tire, would I expect to it to end up being only 30mm wide, 
> but end up adding another 1cm to the height of the bike?
>
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 8:18:29 PM UTC-7 Philip Williamson wrote:
>
>> Without arguing against BB drop affecting handling and the perception of 
>> handling, I can’t see how stack can make a bike feel or ride “tall,” IF the 
>> bars are level with the saddle. I think the shorter reach makes you sit up, 
>> raising your head and giving you a narrower base (ass to grips) which I 
>> think might degrade balance on the bike. I’m much less “in” the bike on a 
>> smaller bike, even with the saddle and grips up. Jim Bronson also says his 
>> “tall” bike gives him a much more upright posture.
>>
>> The reason I think reach drives the “tall” feeling more than stack: In 
>> my mind’s eye I can put my hands on the bars, and the bike can grow or 
>> shrink vertically and the stem and seatpost can make up the difference. My 
>> position on the bike stays the same. If, however, I shrink the top tube, 
>> my hands move back towards my hips and my head and CG move up. 
>>
>> I like to measure my bikes saddle-center to grip-center, rather than 
>> saddle-tip to steerer-center.
>>
>> Philip
>> Sonoma County, Calif
>>
>> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 5:47:59 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>
 I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB 
 drop.  I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm 
 Roadini is a bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam 
 that 
 stem! :)
 If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get 
 a deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
 off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  

>
>>
>>> I went and measured the stack and reach on both bikes. Turns out my 
>>> touring bike actually has a higher stack (71.8cm measured from BB to 
>>> handlebar hood) and reach (45cm measured from BB to handlebar stem center), 
>>> while the Roadini had 68.58cm and 41.91cm on both of those measurements. 
>>> What is significant is that the BB height on the touring bike is 10.5" 
>>> while the BB height on the Roadini is 11", which is a 1.3cm difference. I 
>>> guess I can definitely feel a 13mm difference in center of gravity shift, 
>>> 5mm of which is accounted for by the BB drop difference, and then other 8mm 
>>> is accounted for by the bigger tires (which is strange since the difference 
>>> between tires is basically going from 25mm to 30mm tires, but 3mm 
>>> difference might be within the margin of error)
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Piaw Na]

I went back and measured the height of my tires, and discovered that 
indeed, the tires were 8mm taller on the Roadini than on my touring bike. 
It's very strange, since these were nominally 700x28 or 700x30mm tires, but 
measured only 27mm wide on the rims. I guess all the extra material on 
"wider" tires went into raising the height of the tire (which is 
undesirable) as opposed to increasing the width of the tire (which was what 
I expected). Does this continue as you increase tire size? For instance, if 
I got a 700x38mm tire, would I expect to it to end up being only 30mm wide, 
but end up adding another 1cm to the height of the bike?

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 8:18:29 PM UTC-7 Philip Williamson wrote:

> Without arguing against BB drop affecting handling and the perception of 
> handling, I can’t see how stack can make a bike feel or ride “tall,” IF the 
> bars are level with the saddle. I think the shorter reach makes you sit up, 
> raising your head and giving you a narrower base (ass to grips) which I 
> think might degrade balance on the bike. I’m much less “in” the bike on a 
> smaller bike, even with the saddle and grips up. Jim Bronson also says his 
> “tall” bike gives him a much more upright posture.
>
> The reason I think reach drives the “tall” feeling more than stack: In my 
> mind’s eye I can put my hands on the bars, and the bike can grow or shrink 
> vertically and the stem and seatpost can make up the difference. My 
> position on the bike stays the same. If, however, I shrink the top tube, 
> my hands move back towards my hips and my head and CG move up. 
>
> I like to measure my bikes saddle-center to grip-center, rather than 
> saddle-tip to steerer-center.
>
> Philip
> Sonoma County, Calif
>
> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 5:47:59 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>>> I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB 
>>> drop.  I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm 
>>> Roadini is a bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that 
>>> stem! :)
>>> If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get 
>>> a deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
>>> off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  
>>>

>
>> I went and measured the stack and reach on both bikes. Turns out my 
>> touring bike actually has a higher stack (71.8cm measured from BB to 
>> handlebar hood) and reach (45cm measured from BB to handlebar stem center), 
>> while the Roadini had 68.58cm and 41.91cm on both of those measurements. 
>> What is significant is that the BB height on the touring bike is 10.5" 
>> while the BB height on the Roadini is 11", which is a 1.3cm difference. I 
>> guess I can definitely feel a 13mm difference in center of gravity shift, 
>> 5mm of which is accounted for by the BB drop difference, and then other 8mm 
>> is accounted for by the bigger tires (which is strange since the difference 
>> between tires is basically going from 25mm to 30mm tires, but 3mm 
>> difference might be within the margin of error)
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Philip Williamson]

Without arguing against BB drop affecting handling and the perception of 
handling, I can’t see how stack can make a bike feel or ride “tall,” IF the 
bars are level with the saddle. I think the shorter reach makes you sit up, 
raising your head and giving you a narrower base (ass to grips) which I 
think might degrade balance on the bike. I’m much less “in” the bike on a 
smaller bike, even with the saddle and grips up. Jim Bronson also says his 
“tall” bike gives him a much more upright posture.

The reason I think reach drives the “tall” feeling more than stack: In my 
mind’s eye I can put my hands on the bars, and the bike can grow or shrink 
vertically and the stem and seatpost can make up the difference. My 
position on the bike stays the same. If, however, I shrink the top tube, my 
hands move back towards my hips and my head and CG move up. 

I like to measure my bikes saddle-center to grip-center, rather than 
saddle-tip to steerer-center.

Philip
Sonoma County, Calif

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 5:47:59 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>> I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB drop.  
>> I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm Roadini is a 
>> bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that stem! :)
>> If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get a 
>> deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
>> off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  
>>
>>>

> I went and measured the stack and reach on both bikes. Turns out my 
> touring bike actually has a higher stack (71.8cm measured from BB to 
> handlebar hood) and reach (45cm measured from BB to handlebar stem center), 
> while the Roadini had 68.58cm and 41.91cm on both of those measurements. 
> What is significant is that the BB height on the touring bike is 10.5" 
> while the BB height on the Roadini is 11", which is a 1.3cm difference. I 
> guess I can definitely feel a 13mm difference in center of gravity shift, 
> 5mm of which is accounted for by the BB drop difference, and then other 8mm 
> is accounted for by the bigger tires (which is strange since the difference 
> between tires is basically going from 25mm to 30mm tires, but 3mm 
> difference might be within the margin of error)
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Piaw Na]

>
>
> I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB drop.  
> I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm Roadini is a 
> bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that stem! :)
> If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get a 
> deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
> off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  
>
>>
>>>
I went and measured the stack and reach on both bikes. Turns out my touring 
bike actually has a higher stack (71.8cm measured from BB to handlebar 
hood) and reach (45cm measured from BB to handlebar stem center), while the 
Roadini had 68.58cm and 41.91cm on both of those measurements. What is 
significant is that the BB height on the touring bike is 10.5" while the BB 
height on the Roadini is 11", which is a 1.3cm difference. I guess I can 
definitely feel a 13mm difference in center of gravity shift, 5mm of which 
is accounted for by the BB drop difference, and then other 8mm is accounted 
for by the bigger tires (which is strange since the difference between 
tires is basically going from 25mm to 30mm tires, but 3mm difference might 
be within the margin of error)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Piaw Na]

According to https://www.bikecalc.com/wheel_size_math, it'll take a 1.75" 
tire on 650b to match a 700x25 tire on 700c. No question the Roadini would 
ride taller than the 1.5" tires on my wife's Cheviot. I think I once tried 
1.75" tires on that bike and she didn't like it at all and made me size 
down the tires.

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 2:10:10 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> My answer is yes. I had a 54 Roadini for a while (great bike, shoulda kept 
> it) and it felt markedly taller (higher off the road) than various 650B 
> Rivs I've owned. Fat tired 650B vs. skinnier 700C should be similar 
> diameters so I think the higher BB on Roadini must indeed be noticeable. 
> This is not a criticism in my case, the frame was quite zippy and fun! 
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 11:49:42 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Clearly I'm too old school to be slamming anything!
>>
>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 10:01:13 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>> Google "Slam that Stem" and see what the kids are doing.  It's amusing.  
>>> Best of luck with your Roadini.  
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:38:24 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 The bike can take 42mm tires though! I always feel like you should 
 design the bike for the biggest tire you intend to use. I've never heard 
 the term "slam the stem." I assume that means to put it down as low as 
 possible? Right now I have it set up level with my seat just like my 
 touring bike. I'm not sure I want it any lower, but it's worth a shot to 
 see if my back aches. I have no intention of replacing the Roadini, which 
 rides nice enough. My intention was to have it be a backup bike for my 
 touring bike, since this is the 3rd frame I'm on from Carl Strong and he's 
 retiring so that lifetime warranty isn't going to work any more. I may put 
 38mm tires on it and treat it like a MTB. :-)

 On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:27:17 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:

> The Roadini GEO-Chart on rivbike says the drop is 75, but also shows 
> the bike set up with a 33mm tire.  I think 75 is the correct drop for 
> 622x33mm tires.  I agree with you that 80mm is the correct drop for 
> 38-40mm 
> tires (like a Hilsen).  I don't think any of that has anything to do with 
> Grant riding fixies and forgetting how to design road bikes.  :)  
>
> I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB 
> drop.  I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm 
> Roadini is a bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam 
> that 
> stem! :)
> If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and 
> get a deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it 
> arrives, 
> and off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55? 
>  
>
> BL in EC
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:06:15 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> I had a 56cm 1993 RB-1 (which died when a Volvo C70 broadsided me on 
>> a residential street). So ok, my impression that the Roadini is a taller 
>> bike makes sense. When I first talked to Will he thought I would fit a 
>> 57cm, but after I told him my intention to use drop bars he went and 
>> remeasured the bike and decided the 54cm made more sense. I'm glad I 
>> didn't 
>> go for a 57! Clearly bike sizes are like shoe sizes --- they seem to 
>> change 
>> year to year even from the same designer! I did give Grant a hard time 
>> for 
>> not making the Roadini a 80mm BB drop bike like the Hilsen. (The Hilsen 
>> wasn't a consideration --- it used 135mm wheels, which I don't have, and 
>> the chainstays are even longer --- the Roadini's long stays already make 
>> certain sharp steep climbs not as much fun to ride!) My thoughts are 
>> that 
>> with the trend to larger/wider tire sizes BB drop should be even lower, 
>> especially for those of us who aren't aggressively pedaling around 
>> corners. 
>> But Grant rides fixies and he pedals around corners so I'm going to lose 
>> that argument every time.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 8:59 AM Bill Lindsay  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The legendary Piaw Na asked for a comparison of the 54cm Roadini 
>>> with a 1993 RB-1. 
>>>
>>> What size 1993 RB-1 are you comparing?
>>>
>>> Back in 1993, I would have chosen a 56cm RB1 for myself, and that 
>>> would have been for a Lemond-ish race fit.  I probably would have run a 
>>> 120mm extension stem, basically slammed.  My Saddle Height is 75.5cm.  
>>> I 
>>> worked at a Bridgestone dealer to the end and had my 56cm Bridgestone 
>>> setup 
>>> dialed.  The 1994 RB2, which had the identical geometry to the RB1, got 
>>> blown out at the end for $250 complete on my employ

Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Joe Bernard]

My answer is yes. I had a 54 Roadini for a while (great bike, shoulda kept 
it) and it felt markedly taller (higher off the road) than various 650B 
Rivs I've owned. Fat tired 650B vs. skinnier 700C should be similar 
diameters so I think the higher BB on Roadini must indeed be noticeable. 
This is not a criticism in my case, the frame was quite zippy and fun! 

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 11:49:42 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Clearly I'm too old school to be slamming anything!
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 10:01:13 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>> Google "Slam that Stem" and see what the kids are doing.  It's amusing.  
>> Best of luck with your Roadini.  
>>
>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:38:24 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The bike can take 42mm tires though! I always feel like you should 
>>> design the bike for the biggest tire you intend to use. I've never heard 
>>> the term "slam the stem." I assume that means to put it down as low as 
>>> possible? Right now I have it set up level with my seat just like my 
>>> touring bike. I'm not sure I want it any lower, but it's worth a shot to 
>>> see if my back aches. I have no intention of replacing the Roadini, which 
>>> rides nice enough. My intention was to have it be a backup bike for my 
>>> touring bike, since this is the 3rd frame I'm on from Carl Strong and he's 
>>> retiring so that lifetime warranty isn't going to work any more. I may put 
>>> 38mm tires on it and treat it like a MTB. :-)
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:27:17 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
 The Roadini GEO-Chart on rivbike says the drop is 75, but also shows 
 the bike set up with a 33mm tire.  I think 75 is the correct drop for 
 622x33mm tires.  I agree with you that 80mm is the correct drop for 
 38-40mm 
 tires (like a Hilsen).  I don't think any of that has anything to do with 
 Grant riding fixies and forgetting how to design road bikes.  :)  

 I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB 
 drop.  I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm 
 Roadini is a bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam 
 that 
 stem! :)
 If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get 
 a deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
 off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  

 BL in EC

 On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:06:15 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> I had a 56cm 1993 RB-1 (which died when a Volvo C70 broadsided me on a 
> residential street). So ok, my impression that the Roadini is a taller 
> bike 
> makes sense. When I first talked to Will he thought I would fit a 57cm, 
> but 
> after I told him my intention to use drop bars he went and remeasured the 
> bike and decided the 54cm made more sense. I'm glad I didn't go for a 57! 
> Clearly bike sizes are like shoe sizes --- they seem to change year to 
> year 
> even from the same designer! I did give Grant a hard time for not making 
> the Roadini a 80mm BB drop bike like the Hilsen. (The Hilsen wasn't a 
> consideration --- it used 135mm wheels, which I don't have, and the 
> chainstays are even longer --- the Roadini's long stays already make 
> certain sharp steep climbs not as much fun to ride!) My thoughts are that 
> with the trend to larger/wider tire sizes BB drop should be even lower, 
> especially for those of us who aren't aggressively pedaling around 
> corners. 
> But Grant rides fixies and he pedals around corners so I'm going to lose 
> that argument every time.
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 8:59 AM Bill Lindsay  
> wrote:
>
>> The legendary Piaw Na asked for a comparison of the 54cm Roadini with 
>> a 1993 RB-1. 
>>
>> What size 1993 RB-1 are you comparing?
>>
>> Back in 1993, I would have chosen a 56cm RB1 for myself, and that 
>> would have been for a Lemond-ish race fit.  I probably would have run a 
>> 120mm extension stem, basically slammed.  My Saddle Height is 75.5cm.  I 
>> worked at a Bridgestone dealer to the end and had my 56cm Bridgestone 
>> setup 
>> dialed.  The 1994 RB2, which had the identical geometry to the RB1, got 
>> blown out at the end for $250 complete on my employee deal, so I set up 
>> one 
>> of those as my primary road bike for a few years.  It was my first road 
>> bike with a compact double, which was life changing.  
>>
>> Anyway, now I'm 53, and today I have an RB1.  It's a 1992.  My less 
>> race-oriented setup  puts me on a 59cm RB1, with a slightly shorter 
>> extension stem (100mm) and not slammed.  :)  
>>
>> I also used to own a Leo Roadini, and I ran a 57cm.  A 57cm Leo 
>> Roadini is a MUCH larger bike than a 1992 

Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Piaw Na]

Clearly I'm too old school to be slamming anything!

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 10:01:13 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:

> Google "Slam that Stem" and see what the kids are doing.  It's amusing.  
> Best of luck with your Roadini.  
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:38:24 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> The bike can take 42mm tires though! I always feel like you should design 
>> the bike for the biggest tire you intend to use. I've never heard the term 
>> "slam the stem." I assume that means to put it down as low as possible? 
>> Right now I have it set up level with my seat just like my touring bike. 
>> I'm not sure I want it any lower, but it's worth a shot to see if my back 
>> aches. I have no intention of replacing the Roadini, which rides nice 
>> enough. My intention was to have it be a backup bike for my touring bike, 
>> since this is the 3rd frame I'm on from Carl Strong and he's retiring so 
>> that lifetime warranty isn't going to work any more. I may put 38mm tires 
>> on it and treat it like a MTB. :-)
>>
>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:27:17 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>> The Roadini GEO-Chart on rivbike says the drop is 75, but also shows the 
>>> bike set up with a 33mm tire.  I think 75 is the correct drop for 622x33mm 
>>> tires.  I agree with you that 80mm is the correct drop for 38-40mm tires 
>>> (like a Hilsen).  I don't think any of that has anything to do with Grant 
>>> riding fixies and forgetting how to design road bikes.  :)  
>>>
>>> I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB 
>>> drop.  I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm 
>>> Roadini is a bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that 
>>> stem! :)
>>> If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get 
>>> a deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
>>> off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  
>>>
>>> BL in EC
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:06:15 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I had a 56cm 1993 RB-1 (which died when a Volvo C70 broadsided me on a 
 residential street). So ok, my impression that the Roadini is a taller 
 bike 
 makes sense. When I first talked to Will he thought I would fit a 57cm, 
 but 
 after I told him my intention to use drop bars he went and remeasured the 
 bike and decided the 54cm made more sense. I'm glad I didn't go for a 57! 
 Clearly bike sizes are like shoe sizes --- they seem to change year to 
 year 
 even from the same designer! I did give Grant a hard time for not making 
 the Roadini a 80mm BB drop bike like the Hilsen. (The Hilsen wasn't a 
 consideration --- it used 135mm wheels, which I don't have, and the 
 chainstays are even longer --- the Roadini's long stays already make 
 certain sharp steep climbs not as much fun to ride!) My thoughts are that 
 with the trend to larger/wider tire sizes BB drop should be even lower, 
 especially for those of us who aren't aggressively pedaling around 
 corners. 
 But Grant rides fixies and he pedals around corners so I'm going to lose 
 that argument every time.

 On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 8:59 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> The legendary Piaw Na asked for a comparison of the 54cm Roadini with 
> a 1993 RB-1. 
>
> What size 1993 RB-1 are you comparing?
>
> Back in 1993, I would have chosen a 56cm RB1 for myself, and that 
> would have been for a Lemond-ish race fit.  I probably would have run a 
> 120mm extension stem, basically slammed.  My Saddle Height is 75.5cm.  I 
> worked at a Bridgestone dealer to the end and had my 56cm Bridgestone 
> setup 
> dialed.  The 1994 RB2, which had the identical geometry to the RB1, got 
> blown out at the end for $250 complete on my employee deal, so I set up 
> one 
> of those as my primary road bike for a few years.  It was my first road 
> bike with a compact double, which was life changing.  
>
> Anyway, now I'm 53, and today I have an RB1.  It's a 1992.  My less 
> race-oriented setup  puts me on a 59cm RB1, with a slightly shorter 
> extension stem (100mm) and not slammed.  :)  
>
> I also used to own a Leo Roadini, and I ran a 57cm.  A 57cm Leo 
> Roadini is a MUCH larger bike than a 1992 59cm Bridgestone RB1.  It's got 
> enormous stack and moderate reach.  I would call my 57cm Roadini as a 
> hair 
> larger than my current largest road bike, which is an Ebisu All Purpose 
> whose seat tube measures 60cm c-t-c, 61.5cm c-t-t.   The reach number is 
> about the same, but stack on the 57cm Roadini is taller.  
>
> I'd guess that a 54cm Leo Roadini would probably have a stack and 
> reach pretty similar to a 59cm RB1.  If the RB1 you are comparing was a 
> 59cm, then I would not expect the 54cm Roa

Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Bill Lindsay]

Google "Slam that Stem" and see what the kids are doing.  It's amusing.  
Best of luck with your Roadini.  

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:38:24 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> The bike can take 42mm tires though! I always feel like you should design 
> the bike for the biggest tire you intend to use. I've never heard the term 
> "slam the stem." I assume that means to put it down as low as possible? 
> Right now I have it set up level with my seat just like my touring bike. 
> I'm not sure I want it any lower, but it's worth a shot to see if my back 
> aches. I have no intention of replacing the Roadini, which rides nice 
> enough. My intention was to have it be a backup bike for my touring bike, 
> since this is the 3rd frame I'm on from Carl Strong and he's retiring so 
> that lifetime warranty isn't going to work any more. I may put 38mm tires 
> on it and treat it like a MTB. :-)
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:27:17 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>> The Roadini GEO-Chart on rivbike says the drop is 75, but also shows the 
>> bike set up with a 33mm tire.  I think 75 is the correct drop for 622x33mm 
>> tires.  I agree with you that 80mm is the correct drop for 38-40mm tires 
>> (like a Hilsen).  I don't think any of that has anything to do with Grant 
>> riding fixies and forgetting how to design road bikes.  :)  
>>
>> I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB drop.  
>> I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm Roadini is a 
>> bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that stem! :)
>> If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get a 
>> deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
>> off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  
>>
>> BL in EC
>>
>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:06:15 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I had a 56cm 1993 RB-1 (which died when a Volvo C70 broadsided me on a 
>>> residential street). So ok, my impression that the Roadini is a taller bike 
>>> makes sense. When I first talked to Will he thought I would fit a 57cm, but 
>>> after I told him my intention to use drop bars he went and remeasured the 
>>> bike and decided the 54cm made more sense. I'm glad I didn't go for a 57! 
>>> Clearly bike sizes are like shoe sizes --- they seem to change year to year 
>>> even from the same designer! I did give Grant a hard time for not making 
>>> the Roadini a 80mm BB drop bike like the Hilsen. (The Hilsen wasn't a 
>>> consideration --- it used 135mm wheels, which I don't have, and the 
>>> chainstays are even longer --- the Roadini's long stays already make 
>>> certain sharp steep climbs not as much fun to ride!) My thoughts are that 
>>> with the trend to larger/wider tire sizes BB drop should be even lower, 
>>> especially for those of us who aren't aggressively pedaling around corners. 
>>> But Grant rides fixies and he pedals around corners so I'm going to lose 
>>> that argument every time.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 8:59 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>>
 The legendary Piaw Na asked for a comparison of the 54cm Roadini with a 
 1993 RB-1. 

 What size 1993 RB-1 are you comparing?

 Back in 1993, I would have chosen a 56cm RB1 for myself, and that would 
 have been for a Lemond-ish race fit.  I probably would have run a 120mm 
 extension stem, basically slammed.  My Saddle Height is 75.5cm.  I worked 
 at a Bridgestone dealer to the end and had my 56cm Bridgestone setup 
 dialed.  The 1994 RB2, which had the identical geometry to the RB1, got 
 blown out at the end for $250 complete on my employee deal, so I set up 
 one 
 of those as my primary road bike for a few years.  It was my first road 
 bike with a compact double, which was life changing.  

 Anyway, now I'm 53, and today I have an RB1.  It's a 1992.  My less 
 race-oriented setup  puts me on a 59cm RB1, with a slightly shorter 
 extension stem (100mm) and not slammed.  :)  

 I also used to own a Leo Roadini, and I ran a 57cm.  A 57cm Leo Roadini 
 is a MUCH larger bike than a 1992 59cm Bridgestone RB1.  It's got enormous 
 stack and moderate reach.  I would call my 57cm Roadini as a hair larger 
 than my current largest road bike, which is an Ebisu All Purpose whose 
 seat 
 tube measures 60cm c-t-c, 61.5cm c-t-t.   The reach number is about the 
 same, but stack on the 57cm Roadini is taller.  

 I'd guess that a 54cm Leo Roadini would probably have a stack and reach 
 pretty similar to a 59cm RB1.  If the RB1 you are comparing was a 59cm, 
 then I would not expect the 54cm Roadini to "ride taller".  If your RB1 
 is/was smaller than a 59cm, then YES, I think a 54cm Leo Roadini would 
 ride 
 taller, because of it's huge stack.  If, for example, your RB1 for 
 comparison was a 54.5cm size, then a 54cm Leo R

Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Piaw Na]

The bike can take 42mm tires though! I always feel like you should design 
the bike for the biggest tire you intend to use. I've never heard the term 
"slam the stem." I assume that means to put it down as low as possible? 
Right now I have it set up level with my seat just like my touring bike. 
I'm not sure I want it any lower, but it's worth a shot to see if my back 
aches. I have no intention of replacing the Roadini, which rides nice 
enough. My intention was to have it be a backup bike for my touring bike, 
since this is the 3rd frame I'm on from Carl Strong and he's retiring so 
that lifetime warranty isn't going to work any more. I may put 38mm tires 
on it and treat it like a MTB. :-)

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:27:17 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:

> The Roadini GEO-Chart on rivbike says the drop is 75, but also shows the 
> bike set up with a 33mm tire.  I think 75 is the correct drop for 622x33mm 
> tires.  I agree with you that 80mm is the correct drop for 38-40mm tires 
> (like a Hilsen).  I don't think any of that has anything to do with Grant 
> riding fixies and forgetting how to design road bikes.  :)  
>
> I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB drop.  
> I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm Roadini is a 
> bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that stem! :)
> If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get a 
> deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
> off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  
>
> BL in EC
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:06:15 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I had a 56cm 1993 RB-1 (which died when a Volvo C70 broadsided me on a 
>> residential street). So ok, my impression that the Roadini is a taller bike 
>> makes sense. When I first talked to Will he thought I would fit a 57cm, but 
>> after I told him my intention to use drop bars he went and remeasured the 
>> bike and decided the 54cm made more sense. I'm glad I didn't go for a 57! 
>> Clearly bike sizes are like shoe sizes --- they seem to change year to year 
>> even from the same designer! I did give Grant a hard time for not making 
>> the Roadini a 80mm BB drop bike like the Hilsen. (The Hilsen wasn't a 
>> consideration --- it used 135mm wheels, which I don't have, and the 
>> chainstays are even longer --- the Roadini's long stays already make 
>> certain sharp steep climbs not as much fun to ride!) My thoughts are that 
>> with the trend to larger/wider tire sizes BB drop should be even lower, 
>> especially for those of us who aren't aggressively pedaling around corners. 
>> But Grant rides fixies and he pedals around corners so I'm going to lose 
>> that argument every time.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 8:59 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>>> The legendary Piaw Na asked for a comparison of the 54cm Roadini with a 
>>> 1993 RB-1. 
>>>
>>> What size 1993 RB-1 are you comparing?
>>>
>>> Back in 1993, I would have chosen a 56cm RB1 for myself, and that would 
>>> have been for a Lemond-ish race fit.  I probably would have run a 120mm 
>>> extension stem, basically slammed.  My Saddle Height is 75.5cm.  I worked 
>>> at a Bridgestone dealer to the end and had my 56cm Bridgestone setup 
>>> dialed.  The 1994 RB2, which had the identical geometry to the RB1, got 
>>> blown out at the end for $250 complete on my employee deal, so I set up one 
>>> of those as my primary road bike for a few years.  It was my first road 
>>> bike with a compact double, which was life changing.  
>>>
>>> Anyway, now I'm 53, and today I have an RB1.  It's a 1992.  My less 
>>> race-oriented setup  puts me on a 59cm RB1, with a slightly shorter 
>>> extension stem (100mm) and not slammed.  :)  
>>>
>>> I also used to own a Leo Roadini, and I ran a 57cm.  A 57cm Leo Roadini 
>>> is a MUCH larger bike than a 1992 59cm Bridgestone RB1.  It's got enormous 
>>> stack and moderate reach.  I would call my 57cm Roadini as a hair larger 
>>> than my current largest road bike, which is an Ebisu All Purpose whose seat 
>>> tube measures 60cm c-t-c, 61.5cm c-t-t.   The reach number is about the 
>>> same, but stack on the 57cm Roadini is taller.  
>>>
>>> I'd guess that a 54cm Leo Roadini would probably have a stack and reach 
>>> pretty similar to a 59cm RB1.  If the RB1 you are comparing was a 59cm, 
>>> then I would not expect the 54cm Roadini to "ride taller".  If your RB1 
>>> is/was smaller than a 59cm, then YES, I think a 54cm Leo Roadini would ride 
>>> taller, because of it's huge stack.  If, for example, your RB1 for 
>>> comparison was a 54.5cm size, then a 54cm Leo Roadini is a much much bigger 
>>> bike than a 54.5cm 1993 RB1.  
>>>
>>> Bill Lindsay
>>> El Cerrito, CA
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 7:57:45 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I recently acquired a Roadini, and I've been puzzling over the way it 
 rides. It feels a l

Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Bill Lindsay]

The Roadini GEO-Chart on rivbike says the drop is 75, but also shows the 
bike set up with a 33mm tire.  I think 75 is the correct drop for 622x33mm 
tires.  I agree with you that 80mm is the correct drop for 38-40mm tires 
(like a Hilsen).  I don't think any of that has anything to do with Grant 
riding fixies and forgetting how to design road bikes.  :)  

I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB drop.  I 
think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm Roadini is a 
bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that stem! :)
If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get a 
deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and 
off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  

BL in EC

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 9:06:15 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> I had a 56cm 1993 RB-1 (which died when a Volvo C70 broadsided me on a 
> residential street). So ok, my impression that the Roadini is a taller bike 
> makes sense. When I first talked to Will he thought I would fit a 57cm, but 
> after I told him my intention to use drop bars he went and remeasured the 
> bike and decided the 54cm made more sense. I'm glad I didn't go for a 57! 
> Clearly bike sizes are like shoe sizes --- they seem to change year to year 
> even from the same designer! I did give Grant a hard time for not making 
> the Roadini a 80mm BB drop bike like the Hilsen. (The Hilsen wasn't a 
> consideration --- it used 135mm wheels, which I don't have, and the 
> chainstays are even longer --- the Roadini's long stays already make 
> certain sharp steep climbs not as much fun to ride!) My thoughts are that 
> with the trend to larger/wider tire sizes BB drop should be even lower, 
> especially for those of us who aren't aggressively pedaling around corners. 
> But Grant rides fixies and he pedals around corners so I'm going to lose 
> that argument every time.
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 8:59 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>
>> The legendary Piaw Na asked for a comparison of the 54cm Roadini with a 
>> 1993 RB-1. 
>>
>> What size 1993 RB-1 are you comparing?
>>
>> Back in 1993, I would have chosen a 56cm RB1 for myself, and that would 
>> have been for a Lemond-ish race fit.  I probably would have run a 120mm 
>> extension stem, basically slammed.  My Saddle Height is 75.5cm.  I worked 
>> at a Bridgestone dealer to the end and had my 56cm Bridgestone setup 
>> dialed.  The 1994 RB2, which had the identical geometry to the RB1, got 
>> blown out at the end for $250 complete on my employee deal, so I set up one 
>> of those as my primary road bike for a few years.  It was my first road 
>> bike with a compact double, which was life changing.  
>>
>> Anyway, now I'm 53, and today I have an RB1.  It's a 1992.  My less 
>> race-oriented setup  puts me on a 59cm RB1, with a slightly shorter 
>> extension stem (100mm) and not slammed.  :)  
>>
>> I also used to own a Leo Roadini, and I ran a 57cm.  A 57cm Leo Roadini 
>> is a MUCH larger bike than a 1992 59cm Bridgestone RB1.  It's got enormous 
>> stack and moderate reach.  I would call my 57cm Roadini as a hair larger 
>> than my current largest road bike, which is an Ebisu All Purpose whose seat 
>> tube measures 60cm c-t-c, 61.5cm c-t-t.   The reach number is about the 
>> same, but stack on the 57cm Roadini is taller.  
>>
>> I'd guess that a 54cm Leo Roadini would probably have a stack and reach 
>> pretty similar to a 59cm RB1.  If the RB1 you are comparing was a 59cm, 
>> then I would not expect the 54cm Roadini to "ride taller".  If your RB1 
>> is/was smaller than a 59cm, then YES, I think a 54cm Leo Roadini would ride 
>> taller, because of it's huge stack.  If, for example, your RB1 for 
>> comparison was a 54.5cm size, then a 54cm Leo Roadini is a much much bigger 
>> bike than a 54.5cm 1993 RB1.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 7:57:45 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I recently acquired a Roadini, and I've been puzzling over the way it 
>>> rides. It feels a lot taller than my custom touring bike, which was itself 
>>> based on a 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 geometry with longer chainstays (43cm) and 
>>> a 80mm BB drop. The Roadini has a 75mm BB drop, and I've got 28mm tires on 
>>> the Roadini vs 25mm on my touring bike, so in theory, that's only an 8mm 
>>> difference in BB height. But when I ride the Roadini it feels a lot taller 
>>> than that! Strangely enough, that doesn't affect handling on climbs or on 
>>> gravel, but on descents it makes me slow down quite a bit in comparison 
>>> with my custom bike. Did anyone experience anything similar?
>>>
>>> I've attached my frame geometry, and the Roadini 54cm geometry is here: 
>>> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/ROADINI-540-Geo.jpg?7649874663519573416
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Googl

Re: [RBW] Re: Do Roadinis ride tall?

[藍俊彪]

I had a 56cm 1993 RB-1 (which died when a Volvo C70 broadsided me on a
residential street). So ok, my impression that the Roadini is a taller bike
makes sense. When I first talked to Will he thought I would fit a 57cm, but
after I told him my intention to use drop bars he went and remeasured the
bike and decided the 54cm made more sense. I'm glad I didn't go for a 57!
Clearly bike sizes are like shoe sizes --- they seem to change year to year
even from the same designer! I did give Grant a hard time for not making
the Roadini a 80mm BB drop bike like the Hilsen. (The Hilsen wasn't a
consideration --- it used 135mm wheels, which I don't have, and the
chainstays are even longer --- the Roadini's long stays already make
certain sharp steep climbs not as much fun to ride!) My thoughts are that
with the trend to larger/wider tire sizes BB drop should be even lower,
especially for those of us who aren't aggressively pedaling around corners.
But Grant rides fixies and he pedals around corners so I'm going to lose
that argument every time.

On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 8:59 AM Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> The legendary Piaw Na asked for a comparison of the 54cm Roadini with a
> 1993 RB-1.
>
> What size 1993 RB-1 are you comparing?
>
> Back in 1993, I would have chosen a 56cm RB1 for myself, and that would
> have been for a Lemond-ish race fit.  I probably would have run a 120mm
> extension stem, basically slammed.  My Saddle Height is 75.5cm.  I worked
> at a Bridgestone dealer to the end and had my 56cm Bridgestone setup
> dialed.  The 1994 RB2, which had the identical geometry to the RB1, got
> blown out at the end for $250 complete on my employee deal, so I set up one
> of those as my primary road bike for a few years.  It was my first road
> bike with a compact double, which was life changing.
>
> Anyway, now I'm 53, and today I have an RB1.  It's a 1992.  My less
> race-oriented setup  puts me on a 59cm RB1, with a slightly shorter
> extension stem (100mm) and not slammed.  :)
>
> I also used to own a Leo Roadini, and I ran a 57cm.  A 57cm Leo Roadini is
> a MUCH larger bike than a 1992 59cm Bridgestone RB1.  It's got enormous
> stack and moderate reach.  I would call my 57cm Roadini as a hair larger
> than my current largest road bike, which is an Ebisu All Purpose whose seat
> tube measures 60cm c-t-c, 61.5cm c-t-t.   The reach number is about the
> same, but stack on the 57cm Roadini is taller.
>
> I'd guess that a 54cm Leo Roadini would probably have a stack and reach
> pretty similar to a 59cm RB1.  If the RB1 you are comparing was a 59cm,
> then I would not expect the 54cm Roadini to "ride taller".  If your RB1
> is/was smaller than a 59cm, then YES, I think a 54cm Leo Roadini would ride
> taller, because of it's huge stack.  If, for example, your RB1 for
> comparison was a 54.5cm size, then a 54cm Leo Roadini is a much much bigger
> bike than a 54.5cm 1993 RB1.
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 7:57:45 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I recently acquired a Roadini, and I've been puzzling over the way it
>> rides. It feels a lot taller than my custom touring bike, which was itself
>> based on a 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 geometry with longer chainstays (43cm) and
>> a 80mm BB drop. The Roadini has a 75mm BB drop, and I've got 28mm tires on
>> the Roadini vs 25mm on my touring bike, so in theory, that's only an 8mm
>> difference in BB height. But when I ride the Roadini it feels a lot taller
>> than that! Strangely enough, that doesn't affect handling on climbs or on
>> gravel, but on descents it makes me slow down quite a bit in comparison
>> with my custom bike. Did anyone experience anything similar?
>>
>> I've attached my frame geometry, and the Roadini 54cm geometry is here:
>> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/ROADINI-540-Geo.jpg?7649874663519573416
>>
> --
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