Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[David Yu Greenblatt]

 RuthWorks SF website:
http://ruthworkssf.blogspot.com/p/prices-and-ordering.html




On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Michael Hechmer wrote:

>  
>
 The RuthWorks bag looks nice but without a web site its hard to know.
>
> Michael
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 02:39 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:
Thanks, Steve, Ron, & David.  The information is very useful.  I did 
not understand how adjustable the Bertoud decaleur was, vs the VO.


Yes, the arms pivot through a range of at least several cm. on the 
Berthoud; the other, "male on the bag, female on the bike" style once 
installed has zero adjustment, and during installation has at best only 
what's possible in the spacer stack (for the VO); the Nitto/Grand Bois 
style has no vertical adjustment at all.  Pretty much, you have to start 
with the bike setup and size the height of the bag to fit the space 
available.


But the questions just seem to get more complicated instead of less. 
 I have the VO rack with the integrated receiver on the Saluki, but no 
darn decaleur!  It looks like the bag support would mate up perfectly 
with my current Acorn bag but may not with the taller Acorn bag.  Even 
if it did I wouldn't be able to use it on the tandem, which has about 
300mm to the stack.  I could use the Bertoud on either but would need 
to buy two of the $85 decaleurs. Ouch.
Also taking the bag off and back on looks significantly more 
cumbersome on the Bertoud, and I do that a lot.  Am I wrong about that?


It definitely takes longer to remove the bag from the Berthoud decaleur: 
you remove the "cotter pin" (I put that in quotes because I use a 
Clippiola paper clip) and withdraw the rod, then remove the bag and 
replace the rod.  A little fiddly, but not really "cumbersome."  It 
takes less to remove the bag with the VO, Grand Bois and Nitto style 
decaleurs... except that because the bag comes off more easily, you may 
want to secure it with a small strap lest it bounce off on a 
rough/washboard/rutted/potholed section (and that can become downright 
dangerous if it falls in front of your wheel!) and then you have to 
unstrap the strap as well as lift the bag off, so 6 of 1, half/dozen 
t'other.


As has been pointed out, the part that attaches to the bike is a 
permanent fixture, regardless of what style decaleur you use.  The bag 
and its half of the decaleur can move from bike to bike, and I do that.





I don't like the buckles on the 2886 and I don't like the attachment 
strap on the 28.


Attachment strap?  You mean the elastic cord?  It's a very simple, 
secure and popular method.  Replacement elastic is available.




The Acorn is a little smaller but I like the way all the pockets close.

Lots of choices, including just keeping the smaller rando bag and 
living with it.  Perhaps I should contact Acorn and find out the ht of 
the leather attachment point difference for the two bags.  If it does. 
it might be cheepers to get a  second VO rack.


Honestly, when you're talking about bags that run in the $300 range, the 
price of a decaleur is really small potatoes and should be considered 
"the cost of doing business."





The RuthWorks bag looks nice but without a web site its hard to know.




There are several excellent US bag manufacturers now.  It's nice to see 
that happening.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy 
peasy.  I think they are the best designed on the market.


The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the 
tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and 
that's a little bit fiddly.  Then, also there's the matter if inserting 
the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say, 
like in my basement).




You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if 
you switch the same bag between two bikes.  I did that and it was 
cheaper than buying another decaleur assy.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/


Nice!  Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud 
decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts 
rattling out.   What would something like that cost?



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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Ron Mc]

I've shown this photo before, um, even on this thread  - another use of 
acorn leather washers 



Before I put these on, I rattled out an M5 on the first ride.  I check 
tightness on these infrequently but have never lost another bolt, nor 
really had to tighten them again.  In addition to absorbing vibration, 
compression of the leather washer squeezes the M5 thread, making it a 
better lock washer.  


On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:45:50 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
> > the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy 
> > peasy.  I think they are the best designed on the market. 
>
> The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the 
> tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and 
> that's a little bit fiddly.  Then, also there's the matter if inserting 
> the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say, 
> like in my basement). 
>
> > 
> > You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if 
> > you switch the same bag between two bikes.  I did that and it was 
> > cheaper than buying another decaleur assy. 
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/ 
>
> Nice!  Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud 
> decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts 
> rattling out.   What would something like that cost? 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Ron Mc]

better view of the leather washers


On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 3:06:25 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> I've shown this photo before, um, even on this thread  - another use of 
> acorn leather washers 
>
>
> 
>
> Before I put these on, I rattled out an M5 on the first ride.  I check 
> tightness on these infrequently but have never lost another bolt, nor 
> really had to tighten them again.  In addition to absorbing vibration, 
> compression of the leather washer squeezes the M5 thread, making it a 
> better lock washer.  
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:45:50 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
>> > the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy 
>> > peasy.  I think they are the best designed on the market. 
>>
>> The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the 
>> tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and 
>> that's a little bit fiddly.  Then, also there's the matter if inserting 
>> the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say, 
>> like in my basement). 
>>
>> > 
>> > You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if 
>> > you switch the same bag between two bikes.  I did that and it was 
>> > cheaper than buying another decaleur assy. 
>> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/ 
>>
>> Nice!  Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud 
>> decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts 
>> rattling out.   What would something like that cost? 
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Joe Bunik]

Tangential q: is there a source for an additional set of Berthoud bag
hardware (i.e. just the tubes that mount to the bag)?

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

On 5/28/14, Ron Mc  wrote:
>
>
> 
>
> better view of the leather washers
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 3:06:25 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> I've shown this photo before, um, even on this thread  - another use of
>> acorn leather washers
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> Before I put these on, I rattled out an M5 on the first ride.  I check
>> tightness on these infrequently but have never lost another bolt, nor
>> really had to tighten them again.  In addition to absorbing vibration,
>> compression of the leather washer squeezes the M5 thread, making it a
>> better lock washer.
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:45:50 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
>>> > the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy
>>> > peasy.  I think they are the best designed on the market.
>>>
>>> The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the
>>> tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and
>>> that's a little bit fiddly.  Then, also there's the matter if inserting
>>> the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say,
>>> like in my basement).
>>>
>>> >
>>> > You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if
>>> >
>>> > you switch the same bag between two bikes.  I did that and it was
>>> > cheaper than buying another decaleur assy.
>>> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/
>>>
>>> Nice!  Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud
>>> decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts
>>> rattling out.   What would something like that cost?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 04:17 PM, Joe Bunik wrote:

Tangential q: is there a source for an additional set of Berthoud bag
hardware (i.e. just the tubes that mount to the bag)?


I would write Gilles Berthoud if I were looking for that.  I wrote him 
once back in 2005 via the web form with a question and he replied right 
away. http://www.gillesberthoud.fr/anglais/contact/index.php  for a web 
form.


Back in 2005 his email was gilles.berth...@wanadoo.fr or 
cont...@gillesberthoud.fr



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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Mike Schiller]

I've never used a cotter pin. Stays put without on my bike , even on rocky 
dirt roads. Inserting the pin has always been very easy, perhaps do to the 
original alignment. 

The adjustability of the Berthoud is so it can go on different bikes and 
bags.  This adaptor was designed and made for a specific combination.  But 
most of us who invest in a custom bike keep them for a long time usually.

~mike

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:45:50 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
> > the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy 
> > peasy.  I think they are the best designed on the market. 
>
> The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the 
> tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and 
> that's a little bit fiddly.  Then, also there's the matter if inserting 
> the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say, 
> like in my basement). 
>
> > 
> > You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if 
> > you switch the same bag between two bikes.  I did that and it was 
> > cheaper than buying another decaleur assy. 
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/ 
>
> Nice!  Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud 
> decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts 
> rattling out.   What would something like that cost? 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 06:55 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
I've never used a cotter pin. Stays put without on my bike , even on 
rocky dirt roads. Inserting the pin has always been very easy, perhaps 
do to the original alignment.


YMMV: I've lost the paper clip and had the rod start to back out on its 
own.  As for inserting the paper clip: it's easy if you can see it, not 
so much if it's out of focus and you have to go by feel, especially for 
the Clippiola paper clips I use.




The adjustability of the Berthoud is so it can go on different bikes 
and bags.  This adaptor was designed and made for a specific 
combination.  But most of us who invest in a custom bike keep them for 
a long time usually.


No doubt.  It's lovely.  But it's not the sort of thing your average 
frame builder would make, I'll bet.  Who made yours, and what did it cost?



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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Mike Schiller]

any compentant rackmaker can make something similar. Mine was made by this 
guy http://matthewscustomcycles.blogspot.com/


On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:04:53 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 05/28/2014 06:55 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
> > I've never used a cotter pin. Stays put without on my bike , even on 
> > rocky dirt roads. Inserting the pin has always been very easy, perhaps 
> > do to the original alignment. 
>
> YMMV: I've lost the paper clip and had the rod start to back out on its 
> own.  As for inserting the paper clip: it's easy if you can see it, not 
> so much if it's out of focus and you have to go by feel, especially for 
> the Clippiola paper clips I use. 
>
> > 
> > The adjustability of the Berthoud is so it can go on different bikes 
> > and bags.  This adaptor was designed and made for a specific 
> > combination.  But most of us who invest in a custom bike keep them for 
> > a long time usually. 
>
> No doubt.  It's lovely.  But it's not the sort of thing your average 
> frame builder would make, I'll bet.  Who made yours, and what did it cost? 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Ron Mc]

I thought the cheap brass safety pin that came with the Bertaud decaleur 
was, well, cheap.  I'm sure I have the only Inconel 617 spring clip on a 
Bertaud decaleur



I borrowed a piece of wire from work.  I've mentioned before I repair 
antique fly reels, and make a lot of springs.  


On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:04:53 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 05/28/2014 06:55 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
> > I've never used a cotter pin. Stays put without on my bike , even on 
> > rocky dirt roads. Inserting the pin has always been very easy, perhaps 
> > do to the original alignment. 
>
> YMMV: I've lost the paper clip and had the rod start to back out on its 
> own.  As for inserting the paper clip: it's easy if you can see it, not 
> so much if it's out of focus and you have to go by feel, especially for 
> the Clippiola paper clips I use. 
>
> > 
> > The adjustability of the Berthoud is so it can go on different bikes 
> > and bags.  This adaptor was designed and made for a specific 
> > combination.  But most of us who invest in a custom bike keep them for 
> > a long time usually. 
>
> No doubt.  It's lovely.  But it's not the sort of thing your average 
> frame builder would make, I'll bet.  Who made yours, and what did it cost? 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Ron Mc]

macro of the spring clip - it doesn't come out unless you want it out.  




On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:33:52 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> I thought the cheap brass safety pin that came with the Bertaud decaleur 
> was, well, cheap.  I'm sure I have the only Inconel 617 spring clip on a 
> Bertaud decaleur
>
>
> 
>
> I borrowed a piece of wire from work.  I've mentioned before I repair 
> antique fly reels, and make a lot of springs.  
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:04:53 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> On 05/28/2014 06:55 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
>> > I've never used a cotter pin. Stays put without on my bike , even on 
>> > rocky dirt roads. Inserting the pin has always been very easy, perhaps 
>> > do to the original alignment. 
>>
>> YMMV: I've lost the paper clip and had the rod start to back out on its 
>> own.  As for inserting the paper clip: it's easy if you can see it, not 
>> so much if it's out of focus and you have to go by feel, especially for 
>> the Clippiola paper clips I use. 
>>
>> > 
>> > The adjustability of the Berthoud is so it can go on different bikes 
>> > and bags.  This adaptor was designed and made for a specific 
>> > combination.  But most of us who invest in a custom bike keep them for 
>> > a long time usually. 
>>
>> No doubt.  It's lovely.  But it's not the sort of thing your average 
>> frame builder would make, I'll bet.  Who made yours, and what did it 
>> cost? 
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 07:31 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
any compentant rackmaker can make something similar. Mine was made by 
this guy http://matthewscustomcycles.blogspot.com/




I know of a couple of rack makers who were not frame builders, but they 
both seem to have left the business.  I also know of a couple of frame 
builders who also build racks.  In a totally invalid count based on 
frame builders I'm aware of, that's 2 out of maybe 20, so perhaps 10% of 
the frame builders build racks, and I believe with both the only way 
they'll build you a rack is if a frame comes with it.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[justinaugust]

Or you could take the approach that Rob at Ocean Air did. 
- Nitto "Lamp Holder"
- "Handlebar" straps wrapped around the lamp holder

-J

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks Rod.  Yea, I understand that one part gets mounted to the bike, but 
I don't see anyone selling that half separately.  That leaves me with the 
need to buy two decaleurs at $85 each.  Not impossible but a lot more than 
the $25 VO I was thinking about when I thought about a larger bag.  However 
the variability would solve all but one of my concerns - costs

The deluxe Bertoud bag has buckles on the small pockets, which I don't 
like.  The standard bag has loops, which are fine, and the Acorn has 
stainless turn knobs, which I really like.

Alas, in the last month I have been through two car tune ups, two tire 
changes, two brake jobs, two underbody shields, one wheel rotor, and one 
shattered moon roof - $1600  - one trip to Chincoteague and one trip to 
Kingston for the Canadian Tandem Rally, so the checkbook doesn't want a 
$250 bag and two $85 decaleurs as much as I do!

Michael

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:09:43 PM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
>
> 
>
> better view of the leather washers
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 3:06:25 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> I've shown this photo before, um, even on this thread  - another use of 
>> acorn leather washers 
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> Before I put these on, I rattled out an M5 on the first ride.  I check 
>> tightness on these infrequently but have never lost another bolt, nor 
>> really had to tighten them again.  In addition to absorbing vibration, 
>> compression of the leather washer squeezes the M5 thread, making it a 
>> better lock washer.  
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:45:50 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
>>> > the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy 
>>> > peasy.  I think they are the best designed on the market. 
>>>
>>> The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the 
>>> tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and 
>>> that's a little bit fiddly.  Then, also there's the matter if inserting 
>>> the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say, 
>>> like in my basement). 
>>>
>>> > 
>>> > You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if 
>>> > you switch the same bag between two bikes.  I did that and it was 
>>> > cheaper than buying another decaleur assy. 
>>> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/ 
>>>
>>> Nice!  Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud 
>>> decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts 
>>> rattling out.   What would something like that cost? 
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Ron Mc]

gratuitous bag photos 



Versatility is wonderful.  The rando bag is great, and I pretty much wear 
it all winter for stuffing layers.  But in the summer, I usually have the 
small trunksack up front.  

Here's another idea for versatility.  



A Randi-Jo MUT bag will close around a 25-oz Laken thermos, which lets me 
haul 70 oz. liquid in somewhat trim fashion, and very helpful for long 
summer rides.  

I come by the bag affiction naturally - those are my fishing bags hanging 
behind the repair stand, Chapman, Brady, Frost River.  Always staged and 
ready, coldwater + guest bag, warmwater + guest bag, and kayak bag







On Thursday, May 29, 2014 8:08:41 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Thanks Rod.  Yea, I understand that one part gets mounted to the bike, but 
> I don't see anyone selling that half separately.  That leaves me with the 
> need to buy two decaleurs at $85 each.  Not impossible but a lot more than 
> the $25 VO I was thinking about when I thought about a larger bag.  However 
> the variability would solve all but one of my concerns - costs
>
> The deluxe Bertoud bag has buckles on the small pockets, which I don't 
> like.  The standard bag has loops, which are fine, and the Acorn has 
> stainless turn knobs, which I really like.
>
> Alas, in the last month I have been through two car tune ups, two tire 
> changes, two brake jobs, two underbody shields, one wheel rotor, and one 
> shattered moon roof - $1600  - one trip to Chincoteague and one trip to 
> Kingston for the Canadian Tandem Rally, so the checkbook doesn't want a 
> $250 bag and two $85 decaleurs as much as I do!
>
> Michael
>
> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:09:43 PM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> better view of the leather washers
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 3:06:25 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>>>
>>> I've shown this photo before, um, even on this thread  - another use of 
>>> acorn leather washers 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Before I put these on, I rattled out an M5 on the first ride.  I check 
>>> tightness on these infrequently but have never lost another bolt, nor 
>>> really had to tighten them again.  In addition to absorbing vibration, 
>>> compression of the leather washer squeezes the M5 thread, making it a 
>>> better lock washer.  
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:45:50 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
 > the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy 
 > peasy.  I think they are the best designed on the market. 

 The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the 
 tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and 
 that's a little bit fiddly.  Then, also there's the matter if inserting 
 the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say, 
 like in my basement). 

 > 
 > You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount 
 if 
 > you switch the same bag between two bikes.  I did that and it was 
 > cheaper than buying another decaleur assy. 
 > https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/ 

 Nice!  Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud 
 decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts 
 rattling out.   What would something like that cost? 




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