Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[jay peltz]

Hi Joel,

1.   unisolar 64's and sharp single cystal

2. SMA inverters

3. Arcata California

4. exact, I mean side by side with no shading, same azimuth ( south)  
same tilt ( can't remember)


5.  As to the unisolar producing more, I must stress that I have never  
seen the Unisolar produce more than SC, never.


jay

peltz power
On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Joel Davidson wrote:


Hello Jay,


Sounds like something is wrong other than Unisolar vs. crystalline.  
All things being equal, the Unisolar should produce more kWh per kW  
than crystalline. Questions:


1. What modules and how many of each?

2. What inverter or inverters?

3. Geographic location?

4. Array azimuth and tilt?


Best regards,

Joel Davidson



- Original Message 
From: jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline,  
there is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with  
metering) installation up here on the North coast of California, and  
the the Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This includes  
cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims  
about better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work  
better in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided  
feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar  
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own  
wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N),  
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all  
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has  
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I  
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a  
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed


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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[jay peltz]

Hi Ian,

There was a fat spaniel site for it.

I can ask to see if this can be posted,

jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Ian Woofenden wrote:



Hi Jay,

Is there documentation available on this side-by-side comparison? URL?

Thanks,

Ian


Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline,  
there is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with  
metering) installation up here on the North coast of California,  
and the the Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This  
includes cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims  
about better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work  
better in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who  
provided feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between  
Unisolar and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?   
Your own wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees  
N), with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about  
all sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product  
has it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated  
when I truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production  
with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed
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--
Ian Woofenden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Senior Editor, Home  
Power magazine
Subscriptions: $24.95 per year PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA   
800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220

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Re: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi Geoff
The Unisolar have the same cells just in different number of cells which 
determines the lengths.  If the cells have similar exposure, all that is 
needede is the same number of cells in each string.  Each cell has the same 
current thus each string wheather composed of 9 foot or 18 foot modules can be 
parralled without loss of performance as long as the strings have the same 
number of cells in them (or very close). 

So I would say the engineer is correct.  Further, If one cell is shaded the 
bypass diodes will allow operation of the string.
Darryl
 
--- On Thu, 10/30/08, Geoff Greenfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From: Geoff Greenfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Cc: "Randy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 3:29 PM
> I thought I knew the answer to this one, but wanted to run
> it by the list. 
> 
> 
> 
> We are responding to a bid where the electrical engineer
> has designed a system with different sized Uni-solar
> laminates in some series strings paralelled with consistant
> full size strings.  (this was done to work around skylights
> etc). 
> 
> 
> 
> We suggested that this was a poor design and will lead to
> "least common denomenator" performance,
> exacerbated by MPPT confusion.  The EE responded that
> "the bypass diodes allow for this". 
> 
> 
> 
> Any experience with this in practice? 
> 
> 
> For a brighter energy future, 
> 
> Geoff Greenfield 
> Founder and CEO 
> Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd. 
> 340 West State Street, Unit 25 
> Athens, OH 45701 
> 
> 740.597.3111     Fax 740.597.1548 
> www.Third-Sun.com 
> 
> Clean Energy - Expertly Installed 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Larry Crutcher]

Geoff,

When you mentioned "plenty of partial shading", that settled the issue  
for me. Every cell in Uni-Solar modules have a bypass diode allowing  
them to handle shading better than any other module I know of. For  
potentially shaded areas or high ambient temperatures, it is our  
module of choice. After 6 years of selling and installing Uni-Solar,  
we have only had one failure. Their performance here in our very hot  
climate is outstanding.


As for the mismatching module sizes, the 68 is half the voltage of the  
136 but the same current. They both use the same cells. If you are  
only using a single string the MPPT controller will simple adjust for  
the Vmp of that circuit. However, as with any array, if you have  
multiple strings with mismatched string voltages, the controller will  
"see" a lower average and you will, at the least, be wasting power.  
The bypass diodes have nothing to do with mismatched strings.


If you are comparing arrays with different angle of incidence and  
without shading, the one most perpendicular to the sun will perform  
the best.


Kindest Regards,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
11279 S. Glenwood Ave #4
Yuma, AZ 85367
(928) 941-1660

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.starlightsolar.com


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided  
feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar  
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own  
wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N),  
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all  
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has  
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I  
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a  
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5

[ryan]

What we have done a couple times is to install a 15 amp breaker in the epanel 
and wire in an outlet then plug a 12 vdc transformer into it.
when the generator kicks in the transformer turns on and it all fits neatly 
inside the epanel.
Alternative Energy Systems of Maine
57 Hemlock Rd
Corinna, Me 04928
www.solar4maine.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5

[tump]

The units have a w 12 volt source at the solenoid valve if it is propane.this 
source can also be used for the GSM w/ the XW inverters.  
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-Original Message-
From: John Raynes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:11:38 
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5

[John Raynes]

If switched 12V isn't readily available from the generator as 
configured, couldn't you add a relay with 120 or 240 volt coil across 
the generator outputs, whose contacts (or solid state outputs) would 
switch 12V battery power as a signal line to the AGS?  I realize it's 
more stuff to wire in but that should always work as a last resort.


John Raynes
RE Solar


At 02:46 PM 10/31/2008, you wrote:

Hi boB,

The Kohler RES is is a very simple 2 wire start as are all of the 
Kohler's that I know of. These Kohler's have worked very easily with 
OutBack and Trace inverters over the years fro remote automatic 
start/stop control.


The problem is in getting the Magnum AGS module 12v power when the 
generator is running so that the AGS knows when the gen is 
operating. This particular model (RES) Kohler does not have a place 
that we can find this 12v power. It would be easier for us to use 
generator 120VAC output power for the AGS's run signal.


I have hooked up a number of OutBack, and also old Trace SW systems, 
and we never had this problem of having to bring 12volt power from a 
remote generator back to the inverter for generator control purposes.


Best,

Dave

[David Palumbo]
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Re: [RE-wrenches] fuel canopy and PV

[Jason Lombard]

You may want to look through the 2008 NEC articles 500 to 516. I have
visualy seen one system by a propane tank, ground mount and it was well
shielded between them.

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Phil Schneider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> Anyone out there have experience installing PV on a fuel station canopy?
> I'm interested to know what special considerations there are for managing
> the DC electricity and potentially flammable location.  Thanks...
>
> P.
>
> Phil Schneider
> Creative Energies
>
>
>
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-- 
Jason Lombard
Open Hand Solar LLC.
HC74 Box13
Pecos, NM. 87552
505 795 8646
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5

[boB Gudgel]

AHHA, OK, Now I see...  


Sorry.  Nevermind.

Say no more !!  Wink Wink...  Nudge Nudge...

Thanks,
boB




David said:

Hi boB,

The Kohler RES is is a very simple 2 wire start as are all of the Kohler's
that I know of. These Kohler's have worked very easily with OutBack and
Trace inverters over the years fro remote automatic start/stop control.

The problem is in getting the Magnum AGS module 12v power when the 
generator
is running so that the AGS knows when the gen is operating. This 
particular
model (RES) Kohler does not have a place that we can find this 12v 
power. It

would be easier for us to use generator 120VAC output power for the AGS's
run signal.

I have hooked up a number of OutBack, and also old Trace SW systems, 
and we

never had this problem of having to bring 12volt power from a remote
generator back to the inverter for generator control purposes.

Best,

Dave


boB Gudgel wrote:



Hi David.

Gary Baxter says he apologizes for not having that exact wiring 
diagram for the Kohler RES generator
and the answer you got over the phone.   (we gotta get him on this 
list too soon)


Magnum Energy does rely somewhat on customers to help with different 
generator wiring if they have

information that we don't have.

 If you or anyone else has wiring diagrams for generators that we 
do not have on our site,
please email or let us know about it and we will try to get added to 
that list also which will help everybody.


We do have quite a few on there now though at   
http://www.magnumenergy.com/GenWiringDiagrams.htm


Also, if you find a wiring diagram on OutBack's web site for this 
particular generator, maybe you

could post a link ??

If this is a 3 wire hookup, you may have to check with one of the 
other 3 wire gen start manufacturers like Atkinson.


There certainly are a LOT of generators out there with their 
particular wiring needs.  It would be difficult (tree wise) to
print every generator wiring  that we even DO have and include it 
with the manual.


Maybe  a CD ??  That'd work.

Thanks,
boB



Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:03:08 -0400
From: David Palumbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Wrenchsters,

We have a new 3.4kW PV off grid installation that includes a Magnum ME-AGS
Auto Gen Start module, Magnum ME-RC50 Remote Control, MS4448AE inverter and
a Kohler 8.5 RES lp gas generator for automatic backup battery charging (16
L-16G's).

We have successfully used a Magnum AGS control Magnum with an older 3 wire
start Onan although it took some time in finding 12 volts that is only on
when the gen is running (typically the hour meter power).

With the Kohler 8.5 RES there is no hour meter or other obvious location in
the generator for 12v power that is only on when the gen is running. We
called Magnum from the site only to be told that all of the information we
needed was on line. The man was still un-helpful when we told him that we
were on a remote installation with no internet access. Now I'm back at the
shop and on the web. On the Magnum web site I see a hook-up diagram for
their AGS with a Kohler RMY series generator. Nothing for a RES series.

Next time we'll go back to OutBack.

Any help that the wrench community can lend on working this situation out
would be appreciated.

Dave Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
  



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5

[penobscotsolar]

Is this a propane generator? If it is, all propane generators that we have
dealt with (Kohler included) have a 12 v solenoid on the propane regulator
where the propane line enters and is attached to the generator. There
should be two wires going to this solenoid 12+ and common. When the
generator starts the solenoid opens (12 v power is present) and when the
generator stops, well, you get it. If it's not propane, sorry for the
post
Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Penobscot Solar Design




> Hi boB,
>
> The Kohler RES is is a very simple 2 wire start as are all of the Kohler's
> that I know of. These Kohler's have worked very easily with OutBack and
> Trace inverters over the years fro remote automatic start/stop control.
>
> The problem is in getting the Magnum AGS module 12v power when the
> generator
> is running so that the AGS knows when the gen is operating. This
> particular
> model (RES) Kohler does not have a place that we can find this 12v power.
> It
> would be easier for us to use generator 120VAC output power for the AGS's
> run signal.
>
> I have hooked up a number of OutBack, and also old Trace SW systems, and
> we
> never had this problem of having to bring 12volt power from a remote
> generator back to the inverter for generator control purposes.
>
> Best,
>
> Dave
>
> [David Palumbo]  -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of boB Gudgel
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 4:45 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5
>
>
>
>
>   Hi David.
>
>   Gary Baxter says he apologizes for not having that exact wiring diagram
> for the Kohler RES generator
>   and the answer you got over the phone.   (we gotta get him on this list
> too soon)
>
>   Magnum Energy does rely somewhat on customers to help with different
> generator wiring if they have
>   information that we don't have.
>
>If you or anyone else has wiring diagrams for generators that we do
> not have on our site,
>   please email or let us know about it and we will try to get added to
> that
> list also which will help everybody.
>
>   We do have quite a few on there now though at
> http://www.magnumenergy.com/GenWiringDiagrams.htm
>
>   Also, if you find a wiring diagram on OutBack's web site for this
> particular generator, maybe you
>   could post a link ??
>
>   If this is a 3 wire hookup, you may have to check with one of the other
> 3
> wire gen start manufacturers like Atkinson.
>
>   There certainly are a LOT of generators out there with their particular
> wiring needs.  It would be difficult (tree wise) to
>   print every generator wiring  that we even DO have and include it with
> the
> manual.
>
>   Maybe  a CD ??  That'd work.
>
>   Thanks,
>   boB
>
>
>
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:03:08 -0400
> From: David Palumbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Wrenchsters,
>
> We have a new 3.4kW PV off grid installation that includes a Magnum ME-AGS
> Auto Gen Start module, Magnum ME-RC50 Remote Control, MS4448AE inverter
> and
> a Kohler 8.5 RES lp gas generator for automatic backup battery charging
> (16
> L-16G's).
>
> We have successfully used a Magnum AGS control Magnum with an older 3 wire
> start Onan although it took some time in finding 12 volts that is only on
> when the gen is running (typically the hour meter power).
>
> With the Kohler 8.5 RES there is no hour meter or other obvious location
> in
> the generator for 12v power that is only on when the gen is running. We
> called Magnum from the site only to be told that all of the information we
> needed was on line. The man was still un-helpful when we told him that we
> were on a remote installation with no internet access. Now I'm back at the
> shop and on the web. On the Magnum web site I see a hook-up diagram for
> their AGS with a Kohler RMY series generator. Nothing for a RES series.
>
> Next time we'll go back to OutBack.
>
> Any help that the wrench community can lend on working this situation out
> would be appreciated.
>
> Dave Palumbo
> Independent Power LLC
>   --
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[RE-wrenches] fuel canopy and PV

[Phil Schneider]

Wrenches,

Anyone out there have experience installing PV on a fuel station canopy?
I'm interested to know what special considerations there are for managing
the DC electricity and potentially flammable location.  Thanks...

P.

Phil Schneider
Creative Energies



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5

[David Palumbo]

Hi boB,

The Kohler RES is is a very simple 2 wire start as are all of the Kohler's
that I know of. These Kohler's have worked very easily with OutBack and
Trace inverters over the years fro remote automatic start/stop control.

The problem is in getting the Magnum AGS module 12v power when the generator
is running so that the AGS knows when the gen is operating. This particular
model (RES) Kohler does not have a place that we can find this 12v power. It
would be easier for us to use generator 120VAC output power for the AGS's
run signal.

I have hooked up a number of OutBack, and also old Trace SW systems, and we
never had this problem of having to bring 12volt power from a remote
generator back to the inverter for generator control purposes.

Best,

Dave

[David Palumbo]  -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 4:45 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5




  Hi David.

  Gary Baxter says he apologizes for not having that exact wiring diagram
for the Kohler RES generator
  and the answer you got over the phone.   (we gotta get him on this list
too soon)

  Magnum Energy does rely somewhat on customers to help with different
generator wiring if they have
  information that we don't have.

   If you or anyone else has wiring diagrams for generators that we do
not have on our site,
  please email or let us know about it and we will try to get added to that
list also which will help everybody.

  We do have quite a few on there now though at
http://www.magnumenergy.com/GenWiringDiagrams.htm

  Also, if you find a wiring diagram on OutBack's web site for this
particular generator, maybe you
  could post a link ??

  If this is a 3 wire hookup, you may have to check with one of the other 3
wire gen start manufacturers like Atkinson.

  There certainly are a LOT of generators out there with their particular
wiring needs.  It would be difficult (tree wise) to
  print every generator wiring  that we even DO have and include it with the
manual.

  Maybe  a CD ??  That'd work.

  Thanks,
  boB



Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:03:08 -0400
From: David Palumbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Wrenchsters,

We have a new 3.4kW PV off grid installation that includes a Magnum ME-AGS
Auto Gen Start module, Magnum ME-RC50 Remote Control, MS4448AE inverter and
a Kohler 8.5 RES lp gas generator for automatic backup battery charging (16
L-16G's).

We have successfully used a Magnum AGS control Magnum with an older 3 wire
start Onan although it took some time in finding 12 volts that is only on
when the gen is running (typically the hour meter power).

With the Kohler 8.5 RES there is no hour meter or other obvious location in
the generator for 12v power that is only on when the gen is running. We
called Magnum from the site only to be told that all of the information we
needed was on line. The man was still un-helpful when we told him that we
were on a remote installation with no internet access. Now I'm back at the
shop and on the web. On the Magnum web site I see a hook-up diagram for
their AGS with a Kohler RMY series generator. Nothing for a RES series.

Next time we'll go back to OutBack.

Any help that the wrench community can lend on working this situation out
would be appreciated.

Dave Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5

[boB Gudgel]

Hi David.

Gary Baxter says he apologizes for not having that exact wiring diagram 
for the Kohler RES generator
and the answer you got over the phone.   (we gotta get him on this list 
too soon)


Magnum Energy does rely somewhat on customers to help with different 
generator wiring if they have

information that we don't have.

If you or anyone else has wiring diagrams for generators that we do 
not have on our site,
please email or let us know about it and we will try to get added to 
that list also which will help everybody.


We do have quite a few on there now though at   
http://www.magnumenergy.com/GenWiringDiagrams.htm


Also, if you find a wiring diagram on OutBack's web site for this 
particular generator, maybe you

could post a link ??

If this is a 3 wire hookup, you may have to check with one of the other 
3 wire gen start manufacturers like Atkinson.


There certainly are a LOT of generators out there with their particular 
wiring needs.  It would be difficult (tree wise) to
print every generator wiring  that we even DO have and include it with 
the manual.


Maybe  a CD ??  That'd work.

Thanks,
boB



Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:03:08 -0400
From: David Palumbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Wrenchsters,

We have a new 3.4kW PV off grid installation that includes a Magnum ME-AGS
Auto Gen Start module, Magnum ME-RC50 Remote Control, MS4448AE inverter and
a Kohler 8.5 RES lp gas generator for automatic backup battery charging (16
L-16G's).

We have successfully used a Magnum AGS control Magnum with an older 3 wire
start Onan although it took some time in finding 12 volts that is only on
when the gen is running (typically the hour meter power).

With the Kohler 8.5 RES there is no hour meter or other obvious location in
the generator for 12v power that is only on when the gen is running. We
called Magnum from the site only to be told that all of the information we
needed was on line. The man was still un-helpful when we told him that we
were on a remote installation with no internet access. Now I'm back at the
shop and on the web. On the Magnum web site I see a hook-up diagram for
their AGS with a Kohler RMY series generator. Nothing for a RES series.

Next time we'll go back to OutBack.

Any help that the wrench community can lend on working this situation out
would be appreciated.

Dave Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
  



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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Joel Davidson]

Hello Jay,
 
Sounds like something is wrong other than Unisolar vs. crystalline. All things 
being equal, the Unisolar should produce more kWh per kW than crystalline. 
Questions:
1. What modules and how many of each?
2. What inverter or inverters?
3. Geographic location?
4. Array azimuth and tilt?
 
Best regards,
Joel Davidson



- Original Message 
From: jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

Hi Geoff, 

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there is a side 
by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering) installation up here 
on the North coast of California, and the the Unisolar is the constant 
under-performer.  This includes cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.

I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about better 
performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better in very hot 
conditions, if thats what you have.

jay

peltz power



On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided feedback),  
I have a second request:
 
Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and 
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts?
 
I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are considering 
unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty of partial 
shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I 
think that this product has it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am 
frustrated when I truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production 
with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111     Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed


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Re: [RE-wrenches] smart mount racking

[Geoff Greenfield]

interesting system disconnects (not everyone has a factory-built power 
> panel) and their labeling, anything that might relate to firefighter 
> safety, would be much appreciated. 
> DAN FINK 
> Technical Director 
> http://www.otherpower.com/ 
> Rist Canyon Volunteer Fire Department 
> http://rcvfd.org/ 
> KC0VRD 
> WQGS890 
> -- 
> Message: 2 
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:33:51 -0700 
> From: "Bill Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trouble Shooting Bad Diode 
> To: "'RE-wrenches'"  
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 
> Kirpal, 
>   
> When you parallel, your voltages have to be the same, so you are correct in 
> that assumption. 
>   
> Your assumption about the diodes is not correct. Diodes don't work like 
> that. You could have a shorted module (all three diodes shorted) which would 
> lower the Voc by one module. It looks like you have nearly two modules worth 
> of problems. It could be a total of 5 bad diodes, but that would be weird. 
> It could be you have a ground fault, and haven't tripped the GFP yet because 
> of lower sunlight levels-(it has to be very low sun to stay under 1 amp). 
> You also could have a wiring mistake, either because the factory reversed 
> wired a module (rare, but it happens)-that would be 2 modules low; or, you 
> could have skipped two modules somehow. 
>   
> It does seem like a quarter of the bad string is out. Your assumption about 
> bad diodes could be correct, but it only affects the groups of cells its 
> connected to. Each diode protects 24 cells-it looks like you have 5 diodes 
> worth of loss. It could be in 2 modules, or up to 5 modules. 
>   
> The shading test is the best way to find bad diodes. Disconnect the bad 
> string from the good one and take a piece of cardboard the dimension of the 
> module. With your meter testing Voc on the back string, completely cover 
> each module, one at a time. When the Voc is not affected by complete shading 
> of a module, that module is completely bad. If the shaded module only loses 
> a portion of one module's Voc, then you have one or two, of the three 
> diodes, bad. 
>   
> This is a great opportunity to learn how to troubleshoot a PV array. Take 
> the time, and the effort, to run through it carefully, learn the problems, 
> and report back with your findings. It's a beautiful thing to learn 
> something new. 
>   
> Bill. 
>   
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirpal 
> Khalsa 
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:43 AM 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trouble Shooting Bad Diode 
>   
> Greetings all..I was hoping i could have someone help me confirm a 
> troubled series string on a system we have installed. 
> System consists of 16 BP 170 W 24V nominal modules..2 strings of 8 
> modules.Vmp of each module is roughly 34V and Voc of each module is 
> roughly 41V.  One string is under-producing..String 1 Voc is 346V and 
> String 2 Voc is 272V.  String 1 Vmp under load is 270V and String 2 Vmp 
> underload is 270V.  I am hypothesizing that String 2 has a bad diode on the 
> 3rd panel in and is reducing the Voc of that string by th 2 panels ahead of 
> it in the string.  I am hoping to figure this out without removing the 
> entire string and checking each panel if possible. 
> I think the Vmp is equal due to the fact that both strings are paralleled in 
> the inverter and the 1st string is being pulled to the same level V as the 
> 2nd string under load..Is my logic good? 
> Thanks for the help and advice. 
> Cheers, 
> Kirpal Khalsa 
> Renewable Energy Sytems 
> -- next part -- 
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 
> URL: 
> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachme 
> nts/20081031/ded40350/attachment-0001.htm> 
> -- 
> Message: 3 
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:38:55 -0700 
> From: "Bill Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar 
> To: "'RE-wrenches'"  
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 
> Geoff, 
>   
> The ultimate issue is how many cells are in each series string and is the 
> voltage of the cells nearly the same. As long as the number and the voltage 
> of the cells match up for each string, it makes no difference what 
> arrangement the modules are in. 
>   
> You could have 5 + 6 + 7 = 18 cells in one group and 3+10+5 =18 cells in 
> another group, and its all good as long as 

Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Ian Woofenden]

Hi Jay,

Is there documentation available on this side-by-side comparison? URL?

Thanks,

Ian


Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, 
there is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with 
metering) installation up here on the North coast of California, and 
the the Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This includes 
cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims 
about better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work 
better in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided 
feedback),  I have a second request:




Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar 
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own 
wrench thoughts?




I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are 
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), 
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all 
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has 
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I 
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a 
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  


For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed

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--
Ian Woofenden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Senior Editor, Home Power magazine
Subscriptions: $24.95 per year PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 
800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220

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[RE-wrenches] smart mount racking

[Jeff Blick]

ike a quarter of the bad string is out. Your assumption about
bad diodes could be correct, but it only affects the groups of cells its
connected to. Each diode protects 24 cells-it looks like you have 5 diodes
worth of loss. It could be in 2 modules, or up to 5 modules. 

 

The shading test is the best way to find bad diodes. Disconnect the bad
string from the good one and take a piece of cardboard the dimension of the
module. With your meter testing Voc on the back string, completely cover
each module, one at a time. When the Voc is not affected by complete shading
of a module, that module is completely bad. If the shaded module only loses
a portion of one module's Voc, then you have one or two, of the three
diodes, bad.

 

This is a great opportunity to learn how to troubleshoot a PV array. Take
the time, and the effort, to run through it carefully, learn the problems,
and report back with your findings. It's a beautiful thing to learn
something new.

 

Bill.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirpal
Khalsa
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:43 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trouble Shooting Bad Diode

 

Greetings all..I was hoping i could have someone help me confirm a
troubled series string on a system we have installed.
System consists of 16 BP 170 W 24V nominal modules..2 strings of 8
modules.Vmp of each module is roughly 34V and Voc of each module is
roughly 41V.  One string is under-producing..String 1 Voc is 346V and
String 2 Voc is 272V.  String 1 Vmp under load is 270V and String 2 Vmp
underload is 270V.  I am hypothesizing that String 2 has a bad diode on the
3rd panel in and is reducing the Voc of that string by th 2 panels ahead of
it in the string.  I am hoping to figure this out without removing the
entire string and checking each panel if possible.
I think the Vmp is equal due to the fact that both strings are paralleled in
the inverter and the 1st string is being pulled to the same level V as the
2nd string under load..Is my logic good?
Thanks for the help and advice.
Cheers,
Kirpal Khalsa
Renewable Energy Sytems

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachme
nts/20081031/ded40350/attachment-0001.htm>

--

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:38:55 -0700
From: "Bill Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Geoff,

 

The ultimate issue is how many cells are in each series string and is the
voltage of the cells nearly the same. As long as the number and the voltage
of the cells match up for each string, it makes no difference what
arrangement the modules are in.

 

You could have 5 + 6 + 7 = 18 cells in one group and 3+10+5 =18 cells in
another group, and its all good as long as they are similar cells. Unisolar,
due to the low fill factor, is actually pretty forgiving of difference
modules and cells. If you need help, let me know.

 

Bill.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason
Lombard
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:55 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar

 

You are correct and they are not. The entire string or array will drop the
lowest performing panel and seriously detain performance.

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Geoff Greenfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

I thought I knew the answer to this one, but wanted to run it by the list.

 

We are responding to a bid where the electrical engineer has designed a
system with different sized Uni-solar laminates in some series strings
paralelled with consistant full size strings.  (this was done to work around
skylights etc).

 

We suggested that this was a poor design and will lead to "least common
denomenator" performance, exacerbated by MPPT confusion.  The EE responded
that "the bypass diodes allow for this".

 

Any experience with this in practice?

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed




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-- 
Jason Lombard
Open Hand Solar 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS with Kohler RES 8.5

[David Palumbo]

Wrenchsters,

We have a new 3.4kW PV off grid installation that includes a Magnum ME-AGS
Auto Gen Start module, Magnum ME-RC50 Remote Control, MS4448AE inverter and
a Kohler 8.5 RES lp gas generator for automatic backup battery charging (16
L-16G's).

We have successfully used a Magnum AGS control Magnum with an older 3 wire
start Onan although it took some time in finding 12 volts that is only on
when the gen is running (typically the hour meter power).

With the Kohler 8.5 RES there is no hour meter or other obvious location in
the generator for 12v power that is only on when the gen is running. We
called Magnum from the site only to be told that all of the information we
needed was on line. The man was still un-helpful when we told him that we
were on a remote installation with no internet access. Now I'm back at the
shop and on the web. On the Magnum web site I see a hook-up diagram for
their AGS with a Kohler RMY series generator. Nothing for a RES series.

Next time we'll go back to OutBack.

Any help that the wrench community can lend on working this situation out
would be appreciated.

Dave Palumbo
Independent Power LLC

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Re: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar

[Bill Brooks]

Geoff,

 

The ultimate issue is how many cells are in each series string and is the
voltage of the cells nearly the same. As long as the number and the voltage
of the cells match up for each string, it makes no difference what
arrangement the modules are in.

 

You could have 5 + 6 + 7 = 18 cells in one group and 3+10+5 =18 cells in
another group, and its all good as long as they are similar cells. Unisolar,
due to the low fill factor, is actually pretty forgiving of difference
modules and cells. If you need help, let me know.

 

Bill.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason
Lombard
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:55 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar

 

You are correct and they are not. The entire string or array will drop the
lowest performing panel and seriously detain performance.

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Geoff Greenfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

I thought I knew the answer to this one, but wanted to run it by the list.

 

We are responding to a bid where the electrical engineer has designed a
system with different sized Uni-solar laminates in some series strings
paralelled with consistant full size strings.  (this was done to work around
skylights etc).

 

We suggested that this was a poor design and will lead to "least common
denomenator" performance, exacerbated by MPPT confusion.  The EE responded
that "the bypass diodes allow for this".

 

Any experience with this in practice?

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed




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-- 
Jason Lombard
Open Hand Solar LLC.
HC74 Box13
Pecos, NM. 87552
505 795 8646

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trouble Shooting Bad Diode

[Bill Brooks]

Kirpal,

 

When you parallel, your voltages have to be the same, so you are correct in
that assumption.

 

Your assumption about the diodes is not correct. Diodes don't work like
that. You could have a shorted module (all three diodes shorted) which would
lower the Voc by one module. It looks like you have nearly two modules worth
of problems. It could be a total of 5 bad diodes, but that would be weird.
It could be you have a ground fault, and haven't tripped the GFP yet because
of lower sunlight levels-(it has to be very low sun to stay under 1 amp).
You also could have a wiring mistake, either because the factory reversed
wired a module (rare, but it happens)-that would be 2 modules low; or, you
could have skipped two modules somehow.

 

It does seem like a quarter of the bad string is out. Your assumption about
bad diodes could be correct, but it only affects the groups of cells its
connected to. Each diode protects 24 cells-it looks like you have 5 diodes
worth of loss. It could be in 2 modules, or up to 5 modules. 

 

The shading test is the best way to find bad diodes. Disconnect the bad
string from the good one and take a piece of cardboard the dimension of the
module. With your meter testing Voc on the back string, completely cover
each module, one at a time. When the Voc is not affected by complete shading
of a module, that module is completely bad. If the shaded module only loses
a portion of one module's Voc, then you have one or two, of the three
diodes, bad.

 

This is a great opportunity to learn how to troubleshoot a PV array. Take
the time, and the effort, to run through it carefully, learn the problems,
and report back with your findings. It's a beautiful thing to learn
something new.

 

Bill.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirpal
Khalsa
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:43 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trouble Shooting Bad Diode

 

Greetings all..I was hoping i could have someone help me confirm a
troubled series string on a system we have installed.
System consists of 16 BP 170 W 24V nominal modules..2 strings of 8
modules.Vmp of each module is roughly 34V and Voc of each module is
roughly 41V.  One string is under-producing..String 1 Voc is 346V and
String 2 Voc is 272V.  String 1 Vmp under load is 270V and String 2 Vmp
underload is 270V.  I am hypothesizing that String 2 has a bad diode on the
3rd panel in and is reducing the Voc of that string by th 2 panels ahead of
it in the string.  I am hoping to figure this out without removing the
entire string and checking each panel if possible.
I think the Vmp is equal due to the fact that both strings are paralleled in
the inverter and the 1st string is being pulled to the same level V as the
2nd string under load..Is my logic good?
Thanks for the help and advice.
Cheers,
Kirpal Khalsa
Renewable Energy Sytems

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[RE-wrenches] Request for signage, disconnect, other safety photos

[Dan Fink]

Hi all. In addition to being a solar and wind system consultant and 
author, I'm an officer on a volunteer fire department in a remote area 
of the Northern Colorado mountains. About 5 percent of the residences in 
our response area are off-grid, though the gridless area comprises over 
75% of the district. We are a classic "urban interface" department, both 
wildland and structural.


I'm working on a short powerpoint presentation about renewable energy 
systems to give at meetings of other local urban-interface fire 
departments, and likely make available free on the internet. I'm the 
only responder on our department who lives off-grid, and most 
firefighters don't realize the special issues with off-grid systems.


They expect that when you swing your axe and chop the mains off from the 
powerline (or, preferably, throw the switch, but that's not always 
possible), all circuits in the home, outbuildings and property are dead. 
This is not the case with islanding systems, nor with solar arrays and 
wind turbines using non-islanding grid-tie. And now that we commonly 
wire PV and wind at voltages over 100v, it could be hazardous to the 
firefighter that was not informed. Other aspects of the presentation 
include wind turbine tower guy wires and their anchors that are 
vulnerable to weakening from vegetation burning under them, the hazards 
of battery banks, various ways well pumps might be connected (nice to 
have water at the scene), and more.


Please contact me off list if you have any photos you would be willing 
to share, with credit and copyright notice to you. Images of signage, 
interesting system disconnects (not everyone has a factory-built power 
panel) and their labeling, anything that might relate to firefighter 
safety, would be much appreciated.


DAN FINK
Technical Director
http://www.otherpower.com/

Rist Canyon Volunteer Fire Department
http://rcvfd.org/

KC0VRD
WQGS890



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[RE-wrenches] Trouble Shooting Bad Diode

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Greetings all..I was hoping i could have someone help me confirm a
troubled series string on a system we have installed.
System consists of 16 BP 170 W 24V nominal modules..2 strings of 8
modules.Vmp of each module is roughly 34V and Voc of each module is
roughly 41V.  One string is under-producing..String 1 Voc is 346V and
String 2 Voc is 272V.  String 1 Vmp under load is 270V and String 2 Vmp
underload is 270V.  I am hypothesizing that String 2 has a bad diode on the
3rd panel in and is reducing the Voc of that string by th 2 panels ahead of
it in the string.  I am hoping to figure this out without removing the
entire string and checking each panel if possible.
I think the Vmp is equal due to the fact that both strings are paralleled in
the inverter and the 1st string is being pulled to the same level V as the
2nd string under load..Is my logic good?
Thanks for the help and advice.
Cheers,
Kirpal Khalsa
Renewable Energy Sytems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Matt Tritt]

Hi Jay,

From my own Unisolar installations, and many comments from installers 
all over the US, I have to say that the system on the North coast is 
some kind of an anomaly if it isn't performing at least as well as a 
crystalline system of = power rating at the same or similar site with 
the same or similar degree of pitch. One possible answer could be 
related to the height of the standing seams at this installation, since 
the higher the seam, the greater the losses from shading (assuming that 
the array is oriented South). I have had good results from a shallow 
pitched East/West roof (!) with US modules because of the reduced 
morning and evening shading from the seams, and maybe not such great 
output from Southerly oriented arrays with a high standing seam roof.


However, it is absolutely the case that Unisolar modules will still 
produce energy while partly shaded, and this applies to entire strings 
as well. Because of this, they are a great choice for locations that 
might experience transient shading from utility poles, chimneys, trees, etc.


Matt T

jay peltz wrote:


Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there 
is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering) 
installation up here on the North coast of California, and the the 
Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This includes cloudy, 
sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about 
better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better 
in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided 
feedback),  I have a second request:


 

Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar 
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench 
thoughts?


 

I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are 
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), 
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts 
of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has it's role 
and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I truly 
believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a tilted 
crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  
For a brighter energy future,


Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
*Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
*340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com 

/Clean Energy - Expertly Installed
/

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.4/1753 - Release Date: 10/28/2008 9:20 PM


 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Jeff Lahl]

In 2006, I managed a research project here in Hawaii sponsored by our local 
utility and the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) that did a  6-month 
side-by-side comparison of Uni-solar 64-watt modules and a leading 
single-crystal module.  Utilizing detailed system monitoring (Fat Spaniel), we 
found that the triple-junction Uni solar outperformed 7.6% during early morning 
low-light conditions, 10.3% under cloudy mid-day conditions and 7.2% during 
sunny mid-day conditions.  When it was predominantly cloudy most of the day, we 
saw the Unis producing 12% more across the whole day.Across the whole 6-month 
test period, we saw the Unis producing about 5% more overall, across all 
conditions.  For reference, this is a relatively cloudy site - typical of many 
places in Hawaii - it had a daily average of 4.2 peak hours during the 6-month 
test period.
 
Of course a characteristic of the Unisolar modules is that their output is 
considerably over spec. when out of the box and they then go through a burn-in 
period when light-soaking slowly reduces their output -supposedly down to a 
steady state output.  It was hard to get really specific information on this 
burn-in period from the manufacturer but we were told that most of the burn-in 
should happen over 100 hours of full sun.  To allow for this, we didn't start 
testing until 2 months after the installation was complete.  However, our data 
indicated that even after 8 months, the output per watt of sunlight was still 
slowly dropping (but still above the name-plate rating).  Obviously, some 
follow-up evaluation needs to be done now 2 years later.  The funding is gone 
but I plan to do it on a volunteer basis when time permits.
 
As someone else mentioned, output isn't the only bottom line, the extra real 
estate needed by the less efficient Unisolars need to be considered as well as 
the price per watt.  In my experience, it's pretty common to find single or 
poly modules that are more than 5% less per watt than the Unisolars.

Jeff Lahl
Project Director,
Solar Electric Light Fund (SELF)
155 Keonekai Rd
Kihei, HI 96753 USA
808 874-5706 (Phone and Fax)
808 283-0875 (Mobile)

--- On Fri, 10/31/08, ASAP POWER! 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: ASAP POWER! 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 6:01 AM



#yiv1206672442 p {margin:0;}

#yiv1206672442 {font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:12pt;color:#00;}

We have UniSolar on an East face and Kyocera on a West face.   UniSolar 
outperforms Kyocera in my opinion, but we will stick to solid crystalline Si 
for residential/commercial work for space efficiency and racking/mounting 
ease.   Nothing scientific because it's not side-by-side, but the lower energy 
early morning to mid-peak sun vs. afternoon peak to dusk contest is about neck 
and neck.  16,625kwh (Uni-Solar) vs. 16,893 (Kyocera) this morning on the 
monitor totals for both channels/systems.
 
Triple-junction thin-film is awesome compared to 1-j or 2-j thin-film, but by 
mid-2009 the market will be full of 1-J thin-film offerings going into 2-J 
production.  Trying to catch up they are -- to Stan.  Sharp has some 
interesting news about their exciting thin-film product for Europe this 
morning, but we won't see that here in the US anytime soon apparently.
 
However, the problem for me with UniSolar is that all their claims would be 
perfectly ok with me if their one dreamy promise of lower cost per watt also 
came true.
 
PD 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Greenfield
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar



As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided feedback),  
I have a second request:
 
Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and 
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts?
 
I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are considering 
unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty of partial 
shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I 
think that this product has it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am 
frustrated when I truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production 
with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111     Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed


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Lis

Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[ASAP POWER! 2]

We have UniSolar on an East face and Kyocera on a West face.   UniSolar
outperforms Kyocera in my opinion, but we will stick to solid crystalline Si
for residential/commercial work for space efficiency and racking/mounting
ease.   Nothing scientific because it's not side-by-side, but the lower
energy early morning to mid-peak sun vs. afternoon peak to dusk contest is
about neck and neck.  16,625kwh (Uni-Solar) vs. 16,893 (Kyocera) this
morning on the monitor totals for both channels/systems.
 
Triple-junction thin-film is awesome compared to 1-j or 2-j thin-film, but
by mid-2009 the market will be full of 1-J thin-film offerings going into
2-J production.  Trying to catch up they are -- to Stan.  Sharp has some
interesting news about their exciting thin-film product for Europe this
morning, but we won't see that here in the US anytime soon apparently.
 
However, the problem for me with UniSolar is that all their claims would be
perfectly ok with me if their one dreamy promise of lower cost per watt also
came true.
 
PD 
  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff
Greenfield
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar



As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided
feedback),  I have a second request:

 

Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts?

 

I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with
plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of
advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has it's role and I
occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I truly believe I can
deliver a better net energy production with a tilted crystalline solution
(avoiding the shaded areas).  


For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed



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Re: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar

[Jason Lombard]

You are correct and they are not. The entire string or array will drop the
lowest performing panel and seriously detain performance.

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Geoff Greenfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I thought I knew the answer to this one, but wanted to run it by the list.
>
>
>
> We are responding to a bid where the electrical engineer has designed a
> system with different sized Uni-solar laminates in some series strings
> paralelled with consistant full size strings.  (this was done to work around
> skylights etc).
>
>
>
> We suggested that this was a poor design and will lead to "least common
> denomenator" performance, exacerbated by MPPT confusion.  The EE responded
> that "the bypass diodes allow for this".
>
>
>
> Any experience with this in practice?
>
> For a brighter energy future,
>
> Geoff Greenfield
> Founder and CEO
> *Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
> *340 West State Street, Unit 25
> Athens, OH 45701
>
> 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
> www.Third-Sun.com
>
> *Clean Energy - Expertly Installed
> *
>
>
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> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>


-- 
Jason Lombard
Open Hand Solar LLC.
HC74 Box13
Pecos, NM. 87552
505 795 8646
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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[jay peltz]

Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there  
is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering)  
installation up here on the North coast of California, and the the  
Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This includes cloudy,  
sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about  
better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better  
in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided  
feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar  
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own  
wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N),  
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all  
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has  
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I  
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a  
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed


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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Wind-sun.com]

This is very similar to the old argument (sales pitch) that single-crystal 
panels are better because they have better low light performance.

While basically true, it is meaningless. Getting an extra 10% when your light 
levels are down to 2% of full sun is almost totally irrelevant. One of phrases 
bandied about over the years has been "shade tolerant".

The problem is that most consumers do not realize just how much lower the light 
levels are in shade compared to full sun. Eyes adjust to lower light levels, 
but solar panels do not.

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun
..
  - Original Message - 
  From: Geoff Greenfield 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:08 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar


  ...I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are 
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty 
of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of 
Uni-Solar
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[RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Geoff Greenfield]

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided feedback),  
I have a second request: 



Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and 
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts? 



I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are considering 
unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty of partial 
shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I 
think that this product has it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am 
frustrated when I truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production 
with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  

For a brighter energy future, 

Geoff Greenfield 
Founder and CEO 
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd. 
340 West State Street, Unit 25 
Athens, OH 45701 

740.597.3111     Fax 740.597.1548 
www.Third-Sun.com 

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar

[Geoff Greenfield]

Thanks Tony - yes, that approach makes perfect sense.  Unfortunately, this 
design ends up with plenty of lower voltage strings paralleled with higher 
ones. 


For a brighter energy future, 

Geoff Greenfield 
Founder and CEO 
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd. 
340 West State Street, Unit 25 
Athens, OH 45701 

740.597.3111     Fax 740.597.1548 
www.Third-Sun.com 

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed 






- "Antony Tersol" wrote: 
> If you had, for instance, strings of quantity 10 PVL136 watt modules, and you 
> needed to put in a 68 watt module because of a skylight, then you would want 
> to use a string of 9 PVL136 watt + 2 PVL68 watt. This would keep the voltages 
> the same between strings. Having a string of 9 PVL136 + 1 PVL68 paralleled 
> with strings of 10 PVL136 would cause some of the strings to see non-optimal 
> voltages. I don't see how bypass diodes would fix things. > Message: 1 > 
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:29:38 -0700 (PDT) > From: Geoff Greenfield > 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] mix-n-match Unisolar > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Randy > 
> Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
> > > > > I thought I knew the answer to this one, but wanted to run it by the 
> list. > > > > We are responding to a bid where the electrical engineer has 
> designed a > system with different sized Uni-solar laminates in some?series 
> strings > paralelled with consistant full size strings.? (this was done to 
> work around > skylights etc). > > > > We suggested that this was a poor 
> design and will lead to "least common > denomenator" performance, exacerbated 
> by MPPT confusion.? The EE responded > that "the bypass diodes allow for 
> this". > > > > Any experience with this in practice? > > > For a brighter 
> energy future, > > Geoff Greenfield > Founder and CEO > Third Sun Solar & 
> Wind Power Ltd. > 340 West State Street, Unit 25 > Athens, OH 45701 > > 
> 740.597.3111 ? ? Fax 740.597.1548 > www.Third-Sun.com > > Clean Energy - 
> Expertly Installed > > > 
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[RE-wrenches] Apricus SHW Charging

[Dana]

Manual refers to a maximum pressure, not an operational pressure, ie:"
< 72.5 psi"   This is fine for both open and closed loop systems as most
mains operate below this range, and the TNP on most solar pump stations is
set higher than this value.  

Thanks -

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com
E - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076



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