Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring

[dan]

Shoot, I'm in school now for me Master's Electrical Ticket. Just talking about PV gets the instructors all fidgety. (I know one who can't even say Photovoltaic). Our text (Delmar's Standard) states in several places that DC cannot be converted to AC... they offer only three paragraphs on Photovoltaics -- right next to thermal couples... under the heading "other small sources of electricity". dbDan BrownPresidentFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE:  Rooftop wiring
From: R Ray Walters 
Date: Wed, October 14, 2009 9:07 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

   On Oct 14, 2009, at 5:07 PM, Bill Brooks wrote: Of far more significance is the overall wire management of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting conductors—this is nearly a decade after the first commercially available system was developed. Is anyone else ticked off about this??? Bill.Yes, Bill I'm totally behind you. I'm very tired of trying to invent wire management products in the field. Ever since we lost our module j boxes..We use Pro Solar's rails as defacto wire trays, but it really should be listed for that, and have conduit adapters, etc. Solve this problem and array grounding, and there will hardly be anything left for us to bitch about.Ray___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[holtek]

Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was 
wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am bidding 
a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and this line 
of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would be greatly 
appreciated.

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[Bob-O Schultze]

Holt,
No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The  
whole misnomer of "Canadian Solar" is enough to turn me off to them.

Bob-O

On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM,  > wrote:


Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I  
was wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar  
modules. Am bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so  
budgets are tight and this line of modules fits the budgetary profile.  
Sharing pros or cons would be greatly appreciated.


Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[Allan Sindelar]

Conergy (not our favorite distributor aymore) has been pushing them and
offering very low prices. We haven't used any, but you might talk with
Jeremy there; he'll give you a straight answer. 505 473-3800, X4472.

 

Allan Sindelar

al...@positiveenergysolar.com

NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer

EE98J Journeyman Electrician

Positive Energy, Inc.

3201 Calle Marie

Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507

505 424-1112

www.PositiveEnergySolar.com  

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
Schultze
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:49 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

 

Holt,

No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole
misnomer of "Canadian Solar" is enough to turn me off to them.

Bob-O

 

On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM,  
wrote:





Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was
wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am
bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and
this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would
be greatly appreciated.

 

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com  

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org  

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] ASTM PV installation standards

[Joel Davidson]

ASTM WK21327

Ballot of the new Standard Practice for the Installation of Building Applied 
Photovoltaic Arrays on Steep Sloped ( not building integrated) Roofs


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Lafferty" 

To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ASTM PV installation standards



Hi Joel,
Is this part of the work being done on ASTM WK25362? If not, can you 
provide

the reference and source?

Thanks!
Matt Lafferty




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[Joel Davidson]

I guess they couldn't get away with branding "American Solar" and probably 
didn't want "Mexican Solar." Heck, everyone likes Canadians. The "Strong frame" 
is not very rigid and flexes too much like most Chinese modules.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob-O Schultze 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules


  Holt,
  No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole 
misnomer of "Canadian Solar" is enough to turn me off to them.
  Bob-O


  On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM,   
wrote:


  Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was 
wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am bidding 
a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and this line 
of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would be greatly 
appreciated.

  Holt E. Kelly
  Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
  500 Jewell Dr.
  Waco TX. 76712
  254-751-9111
  www.holteksolar.com
  ___
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org






--


  ___
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output "phasing"

[Max Balchowsky]

I have a system consisting of (4) 5200w sun power inverters that was producing 
about half of the expected power over about 5 months of production. The 
installer said everything on the roof was wired correctly and that they 
suspected the Utility meter was at fault. The historical production on the 
inverters indicate that for about 5 months the inverters show good production 
but the utility shows higher that expected usage. Utility engineers tested 
their equipment and determined everything working properly. After the 5 months 
and a few visits by the installer, working on the system, everything began 
working properly. The home owner has lost thousands of dollars in expected 
production. After looking the system over (short of pulling things apart that 
would void the installers warranty) I suspicion that the inverter outputs were 
not on the proper bus bars in the single phase panel. I remember a few years 
back we had a problem with (4) 2500 watt SMA inverters
 and I went to the site to find the L1 / L2 legs were not on matching bus bars, 
in other words, all the L1 leads on one bus bar and all the L2 leads on the 
other bus bar. Once properly arraigned, the output increased significantly. Has 
anyone had a similar problem?

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems
760-403-6810

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[Tump]

Interesting, not mine either.
Having used Sanyos for quite a long time, I  then I had a customer w/ a low
voltage application request one. Can you say Barn Door?
 
 
 
  

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:40 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules



Conergy (not our favorite distributor aymore) has been pushing them and
offering very low prices. We haven't used any, but you might talk with
Jeremy there; he'll give you a straight answer. 505 473-3800, X4472.

 

Allan Sindelar

al...@positiveenergysolar.com

NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer

EE98J Journeyman Electrician

Positive Energy, Inc.

3201 Calle Marie

Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507

505 424-1112

www.PositiveEnergySolar.com  

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
Schultze
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:49 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

 

Holt,

No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole
misnomer of "Canadian Solar" is enough to turn me off to them.

Bob-O

 

On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM,  
wrote:





Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was
wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am
bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and
this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would
be greatly appreciated.

 

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com  

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org  

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

"Canadian" Solar modules are most definitely made in China.

 

I guess they couldn't get away with branding "American Solar" and probably
didn't want "Mexican Solar." Heck, everyone likes Canadians. The "Strong
frame" is not very rigid and flexes too much like most Chinese modules.

- Original Message - 

From: Bob-O Schultze   

To: RE-wrenches   

Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 AM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

 

Holt, 

No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole
misnomer of "Canadian Solar" is enough to turn me off to them.

Bob-O

 

On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM,  
wrote:





Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was
wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am
bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and
this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would
be greatly appreciated.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FNDC relay, Flex Net Review

[Tump]

Sounds like old times ehh? VAPOR WARE
 
 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FNDC relay, Flex Net Review



Hi Tump, 

However the FNDC has both functions.  % start and volt and time start.
So even if the % gets off for some reason, the volt/time should, repeat,
should start it.

I have all but given up on the flexnet.  I find for most customers its too
complicated, and while it gives good information, its hard for folks to
read.
And most importantly for me, the AGS function is not reliable.  I have had
pretty good luck with the normal AGS, but when hooked to the the FLEXNET
just too unreliable.

And heres the kicker. I talked to the techs at outback about a system with a
problem, and they told me there were having problems  with the flexnet and I
should defeat it by setting the start/stop % to 0, great.


jay
peltz power





On Oct 14, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Tump wrote:


 
I have had issues w/ the FNDC I had to send it back for a reprogram I sent
the mate back at the same time too. MOST important thing I learned is that
the battery bank MUST be at a full SOC prior to connecting the FNDC
otherwise you defiantly will have generator issues.
 
Still having our low voltage "non start" gen problem.  Reset all parameters
in Mate and we will see what happens
from a customer dated 9/25/09 this customer also has had gen not shutting
off issues too.
  
  

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FNDC relay, Flex Net Review


Kent:

The manual is not clear as to how this is done.  Have you considered using a
relay in an FX inverter to activate the generator as is done in a system
without the Flex Net?

Interesting about the SMA claim, but until I hear otherwise, this is just a
claim.

William



At 01:25 PM 10/14/2009, you wrote:


William,

In all of these systems, the Mate's AGS system is being used to control the
FNDC's relay.  The Mate's AGS port has been selected so that it operates the
FNDC's relay rather than using the Aux output on the inverter.  The FNDC is
providing SOC info to the Mate, but isn't directly controlling the relay.

I agree with you about the potential to confuse customers.  And about the
inaccuracy of battery amp-hour meters in general.  But it is interesting
that SMA's main claim about the Sunny Island is that it does the best job
managing batteries.  It does it by keeping track of the battery's SOC.


William Miller wrote: 


Kent:

>From the Flex Net DC manual, page 16:  "OutBack strongly recommends using
the AGS function of the MATE to control a generator."   I assume from your
post, you are using the Auto mode to have the relay control a generator, a
practice that the above quotation recommends against.  This may relate
directly to your problems.

I have no experience with the Flex Net but I took this opportunity to review
the manual more thoroughly than I have previously.  My conclusion is that
the Flex Net is a great tool for the technically inclined but offers a
minimal convenience for the lay person.  The State of Charge function may be
a more realistic method of determining actual state of charge, but if it
operates at all like the E-meter or the Tri-Metric, it is prone to
inaccuracy.  The variables associated with individual battery banks,
particularly as they age, make accurate calibration a moving target.
Overall, the Flex net has the potential to increase customer confusion with
a proliferation of synoptic (overly succinct) menus.

Again, I call on the technicians in the industry to create a user interface
with the lay person in mind.  See previous rant.

I may find I recommend this system for remote locations so I can poll
statistics and interpret for the client, but I will not train a client on
the use of this unless he or she is particularly inclined.

Anyone else have an opinion on the Flex net system?

William Miller



At 12:13 PM 10/14/2009, you wrote:


Has anyone besides me had problems using the relay in the Outback FNDC?
I've had three different customers report that their generators failed to
turn off.

-- 
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com  

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[Kent Osterberg]

You only need to go to the Canadian
Solar website to see that their product is made in China.  The use
of the "Canadian" name and a Canadian incorporation is just smoke to
give the illusion that it is a Canadian product.


Allan Sindelar wrote:

  
  
  

  
  Conergy
(not our favorite distributor
aymore) has been pushing them and offering very low prices. We haven’t
used
any, but you might talk with Jeremy there; he’ll give you a straight
answer.
505 473-3800, X4472.
   
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP
Certified Photovoltaic Installer
  EE98J
Journeyman Electrician
  Positive
Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle
Marie
  Santa Fe, New
Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.PositiveEnergySolar.com
  
   
  
  
  From:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
Schultze
  Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:49 AM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
  
  
   
  Holt,
  
  No experience with them, but I believe they are
made in
China. The whole misnomer of "Canadian Solar" is enough to turn me
off to them.
  
  
  Bob-O
  
  
   
  
  
  On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM, 

wrote:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Greatly
valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was
wondering if
anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am bidding a
42kw system
for local community college, so budgets are tight and this line of
modules fits
the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would be greatly
appreciated.
  
  
   
  
  
  Holt
E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
  www.holteksolar.com
  
  ___
  
  
  
  
  



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FNDC relay

[Kent Osterberg]

Wrenches,

I see there are lots of negative feelings about the FNDC and about how
complicated the Mate is in general.  I haven't seen many direct 
responses to the question.  Have any of you used the relay in the FNDC
and had problems with it not turning the generator off?



Kent Osterberg wrote:
Has
anyone besides me had problems using the relay in the Outback
FNDC?  I've had three different customers report that their generators
failed to turn off.
  
-- 
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
  www.bluemountainsolar.com
  

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

  
  


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.16/2435 - Release Date: 10/14/09 06:33:00

  



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FNDC relay

[Mendocino Solar Service]

Hi Kent,

We're trying to work the bugs out of our first FNDC for a demanding  
customer. It came as part of a DC Power assembled power center. They  
had added a circuit of their own design that had an Auto-Off-Manual  
toggle switch and a relay that was connected to both the FNDC and the  
FX aux. It didn't work. Outback said to use either the FNDC relay or  
the FX aux with an external relay, which is what we did, and it's  
worked fine for several months, controlling the generator by SOC.  
However, lately the SOC reading seems to have gotten out of sync with  
reality, big surprise. The volt start settings are over-riding the  
SOC. The challenge is how to camp out at the customer's house for a  
week to make the observations and tweaks to get all the programming  
set up appropriately to the realities of the battery and array.


I would suggest removing generator control from the FNDC relay and let  
the Mate/AGS control an external relay. The FNDC seems to feed it's  
data to Mate so it can work off of SOC.


I agree with others that the FNDC screens are way too complicated for  
all but a tech-head customer. At least the Trimetric is simple enough  
you can get almost anyone to read amps and volts, and even, God  
forbid, days since charged.


Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701



On Oct 15, 2009, at 9:35 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:


Wrenches,

I see there are lots of negative feelings about the FNDC and about  
how complicated the Mate is in general.  I haven't seen many direct
responses to the question.  Have any of you used the relay in the  
FNDC and had problems with it not turning the generator off?




Kent Osterberg wrote:


Has anyone besides me had problems using the relay in the Outback  
FNDC?  I've had three different customers report that their  
generators failed to turn off.


--
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.16/2435 - Release Date:  
10/14/09 06:33:00




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FNDC relay

[jay peltz]

Hi Bruce,

Volt/time start is pretty accurate.
I'm wondering if you have a battery problem that is causing the issue.

I'm guessing that the volt/time is starting before the % shows it  
should start?


jay
peltz power
On Oct 15, 2009, at 10:17 AM, Mendocino Solar Service wrote:


Hi Kent,

We're trying to work the bugs out of our first FNDC for a demanding  
customer. It came as part of a DC Power assembled power center. They  
had added a circuit of their own design that had an Auto-Off-Manual  
toggle switch and a relay that was connected to both the FNDC and  
the FX aux. It didn't work. Outback said to use either the FNDC  
relay or the FX aux with an external relay, which is what we did,  
and it's worked fine for several months, controlling the generator  
by SOC. However, lately the SOC reading seems to have gotten out of  
sync with reality, big surprise. The volt start settings are over- 
riding the SOC. The challenge is how to camp out at the customer's  
house for a week to make the observations and tweaks to get all the  
programming set up appropriately to the realities of the battery and  
array.


I would suggest removing generator control from the FNDC relay and  
let the Mate/AGS control an external relay. The FNDC seems to feed  
it's data to Mate so it can work off of SOC.


I agree with others that the FNDC screens are way too complicated  
for all but a tech-head customer. At least the Trimetric is simple  
enough you can get almost anyone to read amps and volts, and even,  
God forbid, days since charged.


Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701



On Oct 15, 2009, at 9:35 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:


Wrenches,

I see there are lots of negative feelings about the FNDC and about  
how complicated the Mate is in general.  I haven't seen many direct
responses to the question.  Have any of you used the relay in the  
FNDC and had problems with it not turning the generator off?




Kent Osterberg wrote:


Has anyone besides me had problems using the relay in the Outback  
FNDC?  I've had three different customers report that their  
generators failed to turn off.


--
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.16/2435 - Release Date:  
10/14/09 06:33:00




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] ASTM PV installation standards

[Bill Brooks]

Joel,

Any idea who is developing this? It sounds like whoever is doing this is not
necessarily in the loop with many other standards activities that are going
on. We should encourage anyone doing work in solar codes and standards to be
involved with the U.S. Department of Energy's Solar America Board for Codes
and Standards (www.solarabcs.org). The purpose of this group is to help
organize these efforts.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:31 AM
To: gilliga...@gmail.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ASTM PV installation standards

ASTM WK21327

Ballot of the new Standard Practice for the Installation of Building Applied

Photovoltaic Arrays on Steep Sloped ( not building integrated) Roofs

- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Lafferty" 
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ASTM PV installation standards


> Hi Joel,
> Is this part of the work being done on ASTM WK25362? If not, can you 
> provide
> the reference and source?
>
> Thanks!
> Matt Lafferty
>


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[penobscotsolar]

 We have installed about 20k of these modules, largely off grid. I
would make these recommendations:

Install on good quality mounting. We have almost exclusively been
installing these on DP&W top of pole mounts. The frames are not
particularly beefy but they are not flimsy, either, and a good mounting
system should compensate. That said, we will not use them in our Caribbean
installations due to hurricane potential.

Install where the people have plenty of room. As Tump said, these things
are doors (39 5/8 x 64 or so), but when our customers have more room than
money we install them. We installed some CSI 200's yesterday and today
installed an array of Sanyo 195's and the difference was pretty
obvious.

CSI panels have met the same specs and pass muster other manufacturers
have had to to achieve UL approval. They are not for everyone I
suspect, but they are meeting a niche market, are UL approved and I
think are a decent product. Perhaps in a few years I'll feel
differently but the ones we have in the field are performing well and
have been through some big winds without issues. As I said, time will
tell...

Daryl DeJoy
Penobscot Solar Design





> "Canadian" Solar modules are most definitely made in China.
>
>
>
> I guess they couldn't get away with branding "American Solar" and probably
> didn't want "Mexican Solar." Heck, everyone likes Canadians. The "Strong
> frame" is not very rigid and flexes too much like most Chinese modules.
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: Bob-O Schultze 
>
> To: RE-wrenches 
>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
>
>
>
> Holt,
>
> No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole
> misnomer of "Canadian Solar" is enough to turn me off to them.
>
> Bob-O
>
>
>
> On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM,  
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was
> wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am
> bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight
> and
> this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons
> would
> be greatly appreciated.
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Sealed Batteries

[tom jacoby]

Hello,
SELF is considering new battery options for our off-grid projects (primarily 
health centers in Africa at this time). For the purpose of this post, assume an 
average 48V 500Ah battery bank. We prefer sealed batteries because 
maintenance/watering is not always available. 

Does anyone have any data or experience for with the following batteries? (To 
date we have been using the Deka MKs). Any real-world data you have on cycle 
life vs. depth of discharge would be great.

1. Universal Power Group (UPG) AGMs (i.e. UB 8D)

2. Power Battery PSG/AG product line (i.e. PSG-12255FT)

3. Lifeline (i.e. 8D or L16)4. Surrette AGMs

I am welcome to other suggestions as well.


Thanks in advance,

Tommy Jacoby

  
_
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring

[August Goers]

Bill –

I can’t agree with you more about the lack of good products to route and 
protect rooftop wiring in an effective and efficient manner. That lead me to 
prompt the “Rooftop wiring” post in the first place.  It seems like a wide open 
market but maybe it’s just too small (currently...) Brian Wiley would probably 
have some good insight on this issue. Things are changing – we’ll fix this 
issue sooner or later.

-August

August Goers


Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:07 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Management--was RE: Rooftop wiring

Max,

Is the Minerallac clamp really rated as a bonding device? I don’t think so. It 
may make an electrical connection, but I don’t think it is nearly as good as a 
ground bushing. It is also made of cad-plated steel and I don’t think it is as 
durable as EMT or a ground bushing with a cad plated fastener. It probably 
doesn’t matter too much if it is just protecting conductors and a bonding 
conductor between two rails, but I would not want to rely on this for any 
circuits containing the final equipment grounding conductor or main circuit 
conductors. Not something I would lose a whole lot of sleep over—there are far 
bigger issues to solve. Of far more significance is the overall wire management 
of USE-2 conductors in the array. Structure suppliers still do a terrible job 
of providing an effective means of controlling and protecting conductors—this 
is nearly a decade after the first commercially available system was developed. 
Is anyone else ticked off about this???

Bill.

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Balchowsky
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Bill, as you know, if the array is on a tilted roof (tile track bkts or fast 
jacks) and the array is monolithic, all the wires go directly from under the 
panels to the junction box ( I mis-spoke when I said Combiner box, I too don't 
see the need for combiner boxes on residential systems ).We go directly from 
the weeb ground lug into the junction box then down. The panels are bonded to 
the rails with the  Weeb Bonding Clips.  If the array consists of tilted rows, 
we've used either a bare copper wire tie wrapped to the EMT between rows or run 
in the EMT (most rows are 18-24" apart depending on angle). What I've done on 
the last couple of tilted row residential jobs is used the mineralac clamps and 
EMT between rows (inspector has bought it as a "bond" between rows then used 
the ground lug on the last row to take the ground into the junction box and 
down..

Max


From: Bill Brooks 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop wiring methods between multiple subarrays

Max,

I’m not sure I understand your scenario completely. The WEEB-Lug, superior to 
the ILSCO product, is intended for grounding the rack to the equipment 
grounding conductor. Each rail gets a WEEB-Lug and an EGC ties all those rails 
together and takes the ground to the j-box to enter the conduit system (don’t 
like combiner boxes on residential rooftops). The key is how to effectively 
bond metal conduit. Bonding bushings or box fittings are the only means I know 
of to do this. As others have pointed out, the bushings currently on the market 
are often not designed for outdoor use. This is particularly of concern in high 
corrosion areas (where EMT is not recommended).

My experience is that it is better to bond with indoor lugs than not to bond at 
all. When I check old lugs in the field with cad-plated set screws, they often 
still have a good bond even though the screw is fully rusted. The key is the 
bond between the conductor and the lug, and the between the lug and the metal 
it is attached to. If both surfaces are tight and no oxygen is getting to the 
interfaces, the bond will stay for a very long time—possibly the life of the 
system in a lower corrosion environment. The set screw is mechanical pressure, 
not the bonding point—rust  locks it..  It is best to use outdoor-rated 
equipment, but in some cases, it may be impossible because the equipment may 
not be manufactured, since the market is too small. Oh the joys of exterior 
wiring.

Bill.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.membe

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sealed Batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

hi tom
give us some information on the charge/discharge cycle the batteries will 
experiance.  

For long life i like flooded batteries, and you can access the electrolite to 
determine SOC i like AGM over gel, but have little experiance with either.  my 
experiance is the agm last longer than gel, and nither will last as long as 
flooded.  i have 10 year flooded, and they are still working, and I CAN NOT 
remember sealed over 3 years ( AGM)
Darryl, 

--- On Thu, 10/15/09, tom jacoby  wrote:

> From: tom jacoby 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sealed Batteries
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 5:26 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Hello,
> SELF is considering new battery options for our off-grid
> projects (primarily health centers in Africa at this
> time). For the purpose of this post, assume an average
> 48V 500Ah battery bank. We prefer sealed batteries
> because maintenance/watering is not always available. 
> 
> Does anyone have any data or experience for with the
> following batteries? (To date we have been using the
> Deka MKs). Any real-world data you have on cycle life
> vs. depth of discharge would be great.
> 
> 1. Universal Power Group (UPG) AGMs (i.e. UB 8D)
> 
> 2. Power Battery PSG/AG product line (i.e. PSG-12255FT)
> 
> 3. Lifeline (i.e. 8D or L16)4. Surrette AGMs
> 
> I am welcome to other suggestions as well.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Tommy Jacoby
> 
> 
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with
> security by Microsoft. Get
> it now. 
> 
> -Inline Attachment Follows-
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> 


  
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[Bill Brooks]

Marco and Joel,

 

In the latest version of the Expedited Permit Process, I was required to
remove references to real manufacturers in my example problem. I made up a
company called "American Solar" in true Canadian Solar style. It is really a
shortened version of the company "American Solar Systems", which inevitably
would be shortened to the obvious acronym to give credit where credit is
due...

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:15 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

 

"Canadian" Solar modules are most definitely made in China.

 

I guess they couldn't get away with branding "American Solar" and probably
didn't want "Mexican Solar." Heck, everyone likes Canadians. The "Strong
frame" is not very rigid and flexes too much like most Chinese modules.

- Original Message - 

From: Bob-O Schultze   

To: RE-wrenches   

Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 AM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

 

Holt, 

No experience with them, but I believe they are made in China. The whole
misnomer of "Canadian Solar" is enough to turn me off to them.

Bob-O

 

On Oct 15, 2009, at 7:31 AM,  
wrote:

 

Greatly valuing the opinions of all who participate on this list, I was
wondering if anyone has had experience with Canadian Solar modules. Am
bidding a 42kw system for local community college, so budgets are tight and
this line of modules fits the budgetary profile. Sharing pros or cons would
be greatly appreciated.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules

[danrice]

All,

In the spirit of full disclosure, I work for Conergy in applications 
engineering, and we're distributors of CSI modules. (Michael, I hope I'm not 
out of line commenting from this perspective).

Keep in mind that CSI (Canadian Solar Inc.) is one of several manufacturers 
selling modules with cells made from "solar grade silicon" or Upgraded 
Metallurgical Grade" (UMG) silicon. UMG is a less refined product than 
polysilicon (not to be confused with "polycrystalline"), from which the 
standard monocrystalline and polycrystalline cells are produced. Cells produced 
from UMG silicon are known to have greater levels of impurities, which lead to 
a greater degree of charge recombination within the cell -meaning fewer 
electrons make it out of the cell to do work. Consequently, the cells have a 
lower power/unit area output. This is why some of the CSI modules have lower 
power output per unit area than comparably sized modules.

CSI also makes modules using cells produced from polysilicon, and these modules 
have power densities comparable to other polysilicon-cell modules.

Here's the rub with CSI: Both lines of modules -the UMG line and the 
Polysilicon line, use the same basic model numbers. The CS6P line of modules 
uses 60 6" square cells. The UMG cell modules are referred to as "e modules" in 
the CSI literature. Typically, the CS6P modules in the 160 - 200 watt range 
will be the e-modules, and the CS6P models from 200 - 230 W are the polysilicon 
modules. It's best to look at Canadian Solar's web site to figure out which 
module you're actually looking at. CSI has had some labeling issues, too, which 
has caused some consternation for folks using the e-modules in CA under the CSI 
rebate program. I understand that CSI is addressing the problem.

What I've seen of and read about UMG modules (including the CSI e-modules) 
suggests that there are some issues with UMG that must be addressed in order to 
use it as a PV cell material. Apparently, the purification processes for UMG 
are proprietary to the various processors making the raw materials, and making 
cells from UMG silicon is also a touchy process that's closely held by those 
making them. The types and levels of impurities vary, so purification is a 
moving target, and it's difficult to get a consistent product. From what I've 
read, UMG, because of the impurities, degrades somewhat quickly initially, then 
stabilizes and should remain predictably stable over the life of the module. 
This is reflected by CSI in their module warranty for the e-modules, which is 
comparable to other polysilicon modules. It is known that, due to the 
impurities, back-currents in UMG cells can lead to hot spots. UMG modules are 
less shade tolerant as a consequence. In the case of the CSI e-mod
 ules, the j-box is loaded with diodes -5, if my memory serves me. The reason 
is that there are fewer cells in each string within the module that's protected 
by a bypass diode. This is the manufacturer's way of dealing to some degree 
with the shade intolerance. Other module manufacturers, from what I read, are 
less forthright about their use of UMG cells -to their credit, CSI does not 
obfuscate the fact that they have a product line that uses UMG. 

I've been somewhat skeptical of UMG modules and have withheld judgement of the 
CSI e-modules, waiting for field results. I have but a fraction of the 
experience of many among this august group, and I have no need to promote 
product for Conergy or anybody else. What I have seen so far, among the few 
systems I'm monitoring, is that the CSI modules are performing to spec, and 
aren't failing to any significant degree. That said, the CSI e-module is 
intended to be a lower cost product -that's the presumed niche for UMG in the 
first place. Time will tell if UMG and other less expensive technologies are 
worth the money saved.

I hope this information is somewhat helpful. Caveat emptor. Further!

Dan Rice
Conergy and
Abundant Sun (solar) (-Bill, I got your acronym already...)

--- penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:

From: penobscotso...@midmaine.com
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar modules
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:53:49 -0400 (EDT)

 We have installed about 20k of these modules, largely off grid. I
would make these recommendations:

Install on good quality mounting. We have almost exclusively been
installing these on DP&W top of pole mounts. The frames are not
particularly beefy but they are not flimsy, either, and a good mounting
system should compensate. That said, we will not use them in our Caribbean
installations due to hurricane potential.

Install where the people have plenty of room. As Tump said, these things
are doors (39 5/8 x 64 or so), but when our customers have more room than
money we install them. We installed some CSI 200's yesterday and today
installed an array of Sanyo 195's and the difference was pretty
obvious.

CSI panels have met the same specs and pass muste