Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Tump]

Surrette Battery, THE battery company suggests NO MORE the 3 parallel in a
string & would like to see 2 preferably.
If there are more the 3 then they really not interested in warrantee issues.
Jamie where are you??
 
Now a days there are plenty of options for a good size/AH BB that can be
configured in 1 or 2 parallel strings.
 Its just that us old guys are having a harder time w/ gravity!
 
 
  t...@swnl.net 
www.SWNL.net
   Solarwinds Northernlights   
   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
 Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#  610-517-8401
 
  Blair "TUMP" May
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
NABCEP"Certified PV Installer" 
   
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
   Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
   
  

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:58 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries



On a similar subject here -

 

Long ago, I had a Trojan battery rep. state that they did not like to see
more than [12] L-16s in a series -parallel bank system. This was due to too
many points of connection  /  resistance and bad communication due to
multiple flow paths.

 

Has anyone else heard similar or contrary information/recommendations?

 

Thanks

 

 

Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

 

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

 

If the 180 watt panel will provide enough current to run the recovery
process, then give it a try. What I expect is that your current will vary
throughout the day. Not sure if this is a critical point or if it will just
prolong the process. Pay attention to the temperature. I use a laser temp
probe on the terminals every 30 minutes to verify.

 

Another thing to monitor is the current. It will probably start very low and
build over time due to high resistance from sulfated plates. During this
time the voltage might get really high and then lower some. Don't worry
about the voltage. After a while the current will begin to drop. This means
the recovery process is working. 

 

I just realized that this battery bank must be 4 in series and ten parallel
strings. This is a horrible design that can never work right without
extensive monthly maintenance. The strings with higher resistance will not
be charged properly. Because of this, many strings will be undercharged
every day. EVERY day! So even if you recover these batteries, someone will
need to test and equalize at least every month. I really want to stress this
point as multiple parallel batteries are the ruin and waste of many
thousands of tons of batteries each year. I never design for more than two
strings in parallel. Do this and be happy.

 

Larry Crutcher

www.starlightsolar.com

la...@starlightsolar.com

(928) 941-1660

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

[Tump]

Here is a good reason to spec out 2 volt cells, all of the manufactures have
DC input windows that will allow you to remove 2 volts while getting a
replacment.Conversly we have also installed 26/50 volt battery banks for hi
inrush loads.
Remember when you sized BB w/o charge controllers? 


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 8:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!


Yes, I've had a 48 v system survive a dead cell (Outback inverter), but 24
or 12 v systems are done. So I guess the Sunnyboy can go down to 42 V?

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Dec 1, 2009, at 3:41 PM, Richard L Ratico wrote:

> I believe the Sunny Island 5048 can be configured to remain "online" 
> with up to three cell failures. (Page 90, Sunny Island Manual). Of 
> course, it is a 48 volt inverter.
> 
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
> 
> --- You wrote:
> I used to think that one string was optimal; until I had a single cell 
> failure take out an entire system for weeks. (try operating a 24 v 
> system at 22v! ) I now think that 2 parallel strings is optimum,  3 is 
> OK, and 4 is max. At 4 parallel strings, we start spending more time 
> looking to make sure all connectors are the same exact length etc. to 
> insure equal operation. But of course how do you account for varying 
> internal resistance of the batteries..?? I've done 4 parallel 
> strings at 144 DC of sealed batteries on an electric vehicle, but we 
> were very careful with our resistances, I even switched to smaller 
> wire, on closer strings, and calculated out the exact resistance, so 
> all strings were theoretically equal. This set actually just died, but 
> achieved its manufacturer's predicted cycle life. (B&B battery, 350 
> cycles to 80% DOD) So if you're careful, 4 strings can work well. 
> Worst I've seen was 20 golf carts paralleled in a 12 v system, (10 
> strings) and they didn't pull the main connections from across the 
> set, just connected to one end. The results were very predictable, 
> with the furthest batteries being chronically under charged, and the 
> closest ones being over cycled to a premature death.
> 
> Ray Walters
> --- end of quote --- ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Powered vs SMA

[Drake Chamberlin]

In the past I have seen a lot of issues with PVP inverters.  There 
was a period, when I was subcontracting, where a half dozen or more 
of the units had to be replaced within a short time.  Although I like 
many features of PVP, I've avoided them since.  Have others found 
these units to be reliable or problematic?



At 07:30 PM 12/1/2009, you wrote:

Nice thread... inverter pros/cons is something I spend a fair amount of time
pondering, since they are the weak link in the grid-direct installation.

Overall, I like them both (PVP and SMA).

Performance: On page 44 of the Dec/Jan issue of SolarPro, there is a list of
specifications for grid-direct inverters. Current PVP and SMA inverters have
similar CEC weighted efficiency ratings. Some of the older PVP inverter
models (1100, 2000, 2800, 3000) have slightly lower efficiency.

Reliability: I like that the PVP inverters have no moving parts, whereas the
SMA inverters use a fan to assist with the cooling. PV Powered does a lot of
marketing around their reliability efforts, for whatever that's worth.

Customer Service: I have not needed to utilize PV Powered customer service.
I've found SMA customer service techs to be easy to reach and knowledgeable.

Other issues: I like that PV Powered inverters are made in the USA. I also
find the hardware and manuals to be easier to work with, most likely because
they're produced in the USA for our market. The PVP inverters ship with a
full-size mounting template which comes in handy, especially when planning
the rough-in wiring and support framing during new construction.

I have a preference for the PVP inverters, and use SMA occasionally if it's
a better design fit. I agree with Wayne Irwin's comment about the durability
of the inverters with the heavy transformer designs, as opposed to the newer
"light-weight" designs (including the newest SMA products). I just feel that
in the long run, lower counts for electronic components is a good thing. I'm
not an expert on component reliability, but I know from my somewhat limited
experience that capacitors dry up and transistors are susceptible to a
variety of failure modes. The fewer of these things, the better. Also from a
reliability standpoint, I prefer to put inverters inside in a well
ventilated area, if possible. My gut feeling is that over the long haul, any
inverter will be better off in a location that is protected from moisture
and large ambient temperature swings.

-Hans


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:04 PM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Powered vs SMA


Hi colleagues

Do any of you have a preference, PV Powered vs SMA in the residential space-
2k-5k grid tie inverter zone?

Comments on performance/reliability/customer service etc?

Any feedback on their monitoring vs SMA's webbox?

Thanks

Keith


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Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648  ___
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[RE-wrenches] Evergreen EC 110

[Tump]

Anyone have one of these around? Please contact me off list. THANKS
 
  t...@swnl.net 
www.SWNL.net
   Solarwinds Northernlights   
   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
 Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#  610-517-8401
 
  Blair "TUMP" May
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
NABCEP"Certified PV Installer" 
   
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
   Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
   
  
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 vdc load testers

[robert ellison]

Much easier to use a load bank and test the entire pack than to just test a
single cell, the procedure is the same for 1 as for 12 cells.
There soon becomes a problem on recharging a single cell. Hard to find a
potent 2 volt charger to refill them.

Your too far for me to help, try renting a load tester from a local
industrial battery shop. The one you want has a bunch of switches and a
rheostat for fine adjustments.

If you want detailed instructions on how to do it, let me know and i will
get them to you.

I have been trying to buy a used one but everyone wants too much for my
taste. Only need one a couple times a year. Could probably do more if i had
one.

Later,
Bob




On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Dana  wrote:

>  I use HUP Solar One batteries 98% of the time , they are banks of 2 volt
> cells  in a 12 volt cans. I have banks that are16 years old now and I would
> like to test individual cells.
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel
>
>
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc
>
> www.solarwork.com
>
> E - d...@solarwork.com
>
> V - 970.626.5253
>
> F - 970.626.4140
>
> C - 970.209.4076
>
>
>
> I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel
>
>
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *robert ellison
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 01, 2009 3:56 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 vdc load testers
>
>
>
> Generally the load testers can test up to 48 volt banks and the entire set
> is tested over the 6 hour period  Trying to do it with a hand held tester
> probably wouldnt cut it. It takes 6 hours and a hand unit can't do it.
>
> You could try it with a clamp on meter and any variable load that sucks up
> 2 volts. Do you only have to test a single cell?
>
>
>
> Bob
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Dana  wrote:
>
> Does anyone have knowledge of a 2 volt battery cell load tester? 12 volt we
> have and have not been able to find a 2 volt tester.
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel
>
>
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc
>
> www.solarwork.com
>
> E - d...@solarwork.com
>
> V - 970.626.5253
>
> F - 970.626.4140
>
> C - 970.209.4076
>
>
>
> I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[North Texas Renewable Energy Inc]

Petroleum jelly does work as you say to keep oxygen away from the metal 
surfaces but its melting temperature is relatively low making it not a 
long-term solution.
A device I saw used on an industrial battery bank years ago used a solid 
brass alloy device. A small oblong plate fits over the battery post, lies 
flush on the battery case, then the battery cable is attached. A machined 
brass dome-shaped cover fits snugly over the plate and is attached with 
small set screws. A grease fitting on the top is where you squirt in special 
non-corrosive 'grease' until it leaks out around the battery cable opening.
If the cable/terminal connection is good & tight the connection should not 
corrode or loosen for a decade or more. The device is no doubt pricey but 
should last for the life of the bank on a quality installation.
I have not ever seen this device advertised, or even thought about it until 
I read Dicks posting. It sounds like it's worth the investment for an 
enclosed flooded battery enclosure where fumes will accumulate.

Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
817.917.0527
nt...@earthlink.net
www.ntrei.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Richard L Ratico" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries



Perhaps off topic, it's been said here previously by others, but is worth
repeating, good old Vaseline, coating all exposed metal surfaces at 
battery
terminals, totally eliminates the corrosion issue. It's benign, 
inexpensive and

available everywhere.

Dick
Solarwind Electric



--- You wrote:
Yes, especially with flooded batteries where the posts are much more 
subject to

corrosion. I am getting too old and decrepit to get out in the field much
anymore, but in the past I have seen complete strings basically isolated 
by bad
cross connections, usually (but not always) due to corrosion at the 
terminals.

In extreme instances I have seen cross connect cables totally gone at the
cable/lug connection point - nothing but green powder.

With multiple batteries and banks, correct cabling and connections become 
much

more important, because they may not show up until too late. With a single
series string it is usually obvious if something goes bad, but with 
multiples
not so much. Sometimes you have no choice but to use large strings, but I 
have
seen installations where 60+ 42 amp-hour batteries were strung together, 
because

they were "cheap".
--- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

[Darryl Thayer]

Right on Larry, paralleled batteries is always as failure and it is very 
hazardous paralleled strings of sealed batteries can suffer thermal runaway one 
string getting destroyed and in the well known case the fire can spread. 

I have applied a high voltage to sulfated batteries at first they draw little 
current, then over time the current increases. (one example 60 volts to a 12 
volt battery, over time the current increased and the voltage by design 
dropped, the batteries lasted another 3 years)

--- On Tue, 12/1/09, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar  
wrote:

> From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 11:41 AM
> If the 180 watt panel will provide
> enough current to run the recovery process, then give it a
> try. What I expect is that your current will vary throughout
> the day. Not sure if this is a critical point or if it will
> just prolong the process. Pay attention to the
> temperature. I use a laser temp probe on the terminals
> every 30 minutes to verify.
> Another thing to monitor is the current. It will
> probably start very low and build over time due to
> high resistance from sulfated plates. During this time the
> voltage might get really high and then lower some. Don't
> worry about the voltage. After a while the current will
> begin to drop. This means the recovery process is
> working. 
> I just realized that this battery bank must be 4
> in series and ten parallel strings. This is a horrible
> design that can never work right without extensive monthly
> maintenance. The strings with higher resistance will not be
> charged properly. Because of this, many strings will be
> undercharged every day. EVERY day! So even if you recover
> these batteries, someone will need to test and equalize at
> least every month. I really want to stress this point as
> multiple parallel batteries are the ruin and waste of many
> thousands of tons of batteries each year. I never design for
> more than two strings in parallel. Do this and be
> happy.
> Larry crutcherwww.starlightsolar.comla...@starlightsolar.com(928)
> 941-1660
> Retail Store &
> Shipping 2998 Shari
> Ave.Yuma, AZ 85365
> Mailing
> address11881 South Fortuna Road;
> #210Yuma, AZ 85367
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales, Service,
> Installations
> 
> On Dec 1, 2009, at 6:00 AM, Conrad Geyser
> wrote:
> Thanks
> for the amazing responses everyone!
>  Larry,
> it sound as though the parameters below are a perfect match
> for your average ~180 watt PV module in December sunlight
> wired back through a diode to a test battery inside? 
> Does it matter if the process get’s interrupted by a few
> nights / cloudy days?  Do you have a preferred test
> approach?
>  Yeah,
> this bank represents a huge amount of resources; I want to
> make sure it can’t be saved.
>  ConradCotuit
> Solar
>  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] on Behalf Of Larry
> Crutcher, Starlight Solar
> Sent: Monday, November
> 30, 2009 11:17 AM
> To:  RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [ RE-wrenches
> ] concord batteries, EQUALIZE
> Them!  Conrad,
>  We have sold many  Concord (Lifeline, Sun
> Xtender...) batteries over the years. They are the best and
> half of our battery sales are Deka and Concord
> AGM's.
>  When our mobile cus tom ers abuse
> their AGM batteries, I use an equalization process that has
> a constant current and no voltage limit to restore them. I
> am sure you have heard that you should never equalize an AMG
> battery. This is not true but the process must be tightly
> controlled. I have done it many times and the result is
> always to recover some or most
> capacity. 
>  Do one battery at a
> time.1.  Battery temp: 77 degrees
> (+/-5) and stable2. Apply charge current limited to
> 5% of the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will be 11 amps. Do not
> regulate voltage!3. Monitor temperature and
> voltage.4(a) If temperature reaches 130F,
> stop the process. Start again when the battery temperature
> has been lowered to room
> temperature.4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc,
> continue charging for 4 hours. Voltage may reach 3
> vpc!!  Follow 4(a) about
> temp.5. After this process, perform a
> capacity test. 
>  This has worked for me with
> chronically undercharged AGM's of all types. I
>  have never had one vent or go into thermal run away.
> At the price of these batteries, it is worth the time to try
> if you have the power source and
> time.
>  For
> reference this process is outlined in the Lifeline Technical
> manual, page 20. http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf
>  Larry
> crutcherwww.starlightsolar.comla...@starlightsolar.com(928)
> 941-1660
>  On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:48 PM,
> Conrad Geyser wrote:
> 
> In the
> vein of us on grid folks who’s heads spin when the off
> grid folks start talking about charge programming and gen
> set start up parameters…
>  I am
> servicing an orphaned 48 V off grid 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Chris Worcester]

This is similar to what I've been doing for a long time, I use high temp
lithium based wheel baring grease, cover all surfaces and assemble. After
18+ years my own set of IBE 2v cells looks like the day I greased them, no
corrosion. We keep a tub of this grease on the truck, and rubber gloves to
apply it with.

Sincerely,

Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
ch...@solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of North Texas
Renewable Energy Inc
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 7:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

Petroleum jelly does work as you say to keep oxygen away from the metal 
surfaces but its melting temperature is relatively low making it not a 
long-term solution.
A device I saw used on an industrial battery bank years ago used a solid 
brass alloy device. A small oblong plate fits over the battery post, lies 
flush on the battery case, then the battery cable is attached. A machined 
brass dome-shaped cover fits snugly over the plate and is attached with 
small set screws. A grease fitting on the top is where you squirt in special

non-corrosive 'grease' until it leaks out around the battery cable opening.
If the cable/terminal connection is good & tight the connection should not 
corrode or loosen for a decade or more. The device is no doubt pricey but 
should last for the life of the bank on a quality installation.
I have not ever seen this device advertised, or even thought about it until 
I read Dicks posting. It sounds like it's worth the investment for an 
enclosed flooded battery enclosure where fumes will accumulate.
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
817.917.0527
nt...@earthlink.net
www.ntrei.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Richard L Ratico" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


> Perhaps off topic, it's been said here previously by others, but is worth
> repeating, good old Vaseline, coating all exposed metal surfaces at 
> battery
> terminals, totally eliminates the corrosion issue. It's benign, 
> inexpensive and
> available everywhere.
>
> Dick
> Solarwind Electric
>
>
>
> --- You wrote:
> Yes, especially with flooded batteries where the posts are much more 
> subject to
> corrosion. I am getting too old and decrepit to get out in the field much
> anymore, but in the past I have seen complete strings basically isolated 
> by bad
> cross connections, usually (but not always) due to corrosion at the 
> terminals.
> In extreme instances I have seen cross connect cables totally gone at the
> cable/lug connection point - nothing but green powder.
>
> With multiple batteries and banks, correct cabling and connections become 
> much
> more important, because they may not show up until too late. With a single
> series string it is usually obvious if something goes bad, but with 
> multiples
> not so much. Sometimes you have no choice but to use large strings, but I 
> have
> seen installations where 60+ 42 amp-hour batteries were strung together, 
> because
> they were "cheap".
> --- end of quote ---
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Allan Sindelar]

Years ago we began using Quick-Cote terminal corrosion protector. At about
$12 a can it has become pricey, but the can includes a brush-in-cap and
works well. We have bought stock through AEE, but I'm not sure if AEE still
carries it. I also tell customers that Vaseline works just as well. Done
right, a set of interconnects can be reused with the next set of batteries.

We usually give the job of coating terminals and cable ends prior to
assembly to the customer to do, as nearly all like to get involved hands-on
and this is a tedious, non-skilled job that provides such engagement.

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.PositiveEnergySolar.com


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Worcester
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:45 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

This is similar to what I've been doing for a long time, I use high temp
lithium based wheel baring grease, cover all surfaces and assemble. After
18+ years my own set of IBE 2v cells looks like the day I greased them, no
corrosion. We keep a tub of this grease on the truck, and rubber gloves to
apply it with.

Sincerely,

Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Tom Elliot]

MessageI would be very curious to hear THE battery company's, or any battery 
company's, interest in warranty on a system where the strings of batteries are 
paralleled through a buss bar rather than physically through the bank.  The 
vulnerability to failure of an off-grid system with only one or two series 
strings is high enough to be a concern.  Then there's also the not un-trivial 
issue of handling large batteries safely.



From: Tump 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:32 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


Surrette Battery, THE battery company suggests NO MORE the 3 parallel in a 
string & would like to see 2 preferably.
If there are more the 3 then they really not interested in warrantee issues.
Jamie where are you??

Now a days there are plenty of options for a good size/AH BB that can be 
configured in 1 or 2 parallel strings.
 Its just that us old guys are having a harder time w/ gravity!


t...@swnl.netwww.SWNL.net
   Solarwinds Northernlights   
   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
 Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#  610-517-8401

  Blair "TUMP" May
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
NABCEP"Certified PV Installer" 
   
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
   Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
   
  
  -Original Message-
  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
  Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:58 PM
  To: 'RE-wrenches'
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


  On a similar subject here -

   

  Long ago, I had a Trojan battery rep. state that they did not like to see 
more than [12] L-16s in a series -parallel bank system. This was due to too 
many points of connection  /  resistance and bad communication due to multiple 
flow paths.

   

  Has anyone else heard similar or contrary information/recommendations?

   

  Thanks

   

   

  Dana Orzel

   

  Great Solar Works, Inc

  www.solarwork.com

  E - d...@solarwork.com

  V - 970.626.5253

  F - 970.626.4140

  C - 970.209.4076

   

  I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

   

  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, 
Starlight Solar
  Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:42 AM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

   

  If the 180 watt panel will provide enough current to run the recovery 
process, then give it a try. What I expect is that your current will vary 
throughout the day. Not sure if this is a critical point or if it will just 
prolong the process. Pay attention to the temperature. I use a laser temp probe 
on the terminals every 30 minutes to verify.

   

  Another thing to monitor is the current. It will probably start very low and 
build over time due to high resistance from sulfated plates. During this time 
the voltage might get really high and then lower some. Don't worry about the 
voltage. After a while the current will begin to drop. This means the recovery 
process is working. 

   

  I just realized that this battery bank must be 4 in series and ten parallel 
strings. This is a horrible design that can never work right without extensive 
monthly maintenance. The strings with higher resistance will not be charged 
properly. Because of this, many strings will be undercharged every day. EVERY 
day! So even if you recover these batteries, someone will need to test and 
equalize at least every month. I really want to stress this point as multiple 
parallel batteries are the ruin and waste of many thousands of tons of 
batteries each year. I never design for more than two strings in parallel. Do 
this and be happy.

   

  Larry Crutcher

  www.starlightsolar.com

  la...@starlightsolar.com

  (928) 941-1660

   






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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release Date: 12/01/09 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

I know that C&D battery does not like parallel strings and they have a device 
that measures the currents in each string

I investigated a fire from a battery bank of 48 volts 4 strings in parallel of 
6 Volt 800 AH batteries.  The parallel strings was indicated as bad practice 
and suspect as the cause of the fire.  The battery bank was on a standalone 
system and had poor regulation on charging. (it was being charge controlled by 
a diversion controller)  

Also the fire in New Jersey was a parallel string case of 12 volt AGMs in 4 or 
more parallel strings (anybody remember better than I?).

DT  

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot  wrote:

> From: Tom Elliot 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 11:58 AM
> 
> Message
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> I would be very curious to
> hear THE battery 
> company's, or any battery company's, interest in
> warranty on a system where the 
> strings of batteries are paralleled through a buss bar
> rather than physically 
> through the bank.  The vulnerability to failure of an
> off-grid system with 
> only one or two series strings is high enough to be a
> concern.  Then 
> there's also the not un-trivial issue of handling large
> batteries 
> safely.
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Tump 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:32
> AM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series
> of 
> batteries
> 
> 
> Surrette Battery, THE battery company
> suggests NO MORE the 3 parallel 
> in a string & would like to see 2
> preferably.
> If 
> there are more the 3 then they really not interested in
> warrantee 
> issues.
> Jamie 
> where are you??
>  
> Now a 
> days there are plenty of options for a good size/AH BB that
> can be configured in 
> 1 or 2 parallel strings.
>  Its just that us old guys are having a
> harder time w/ 
> gravity!
>  
>  
> t...@swnl.net    www.SWNL.net
>    Solarwinds 
> Northernlights   
>    Serving Mid
> Coast Maine & Northern 
> California
>  Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.# 
> 
> 610-517-8401
>  
>  
> 
> Blair "TUMP"
> May
>    
> 
> MAINE'S CHARTER 
>  
>   
> NABCEP    "Certified PV 
> Installer" 
>    
> 
>     MAINE'S
> CHARTER 
> 
>    Trace 
> Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
>    
> 
>   
> 
>   
>   -Original Message-
> From: 
>   re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>   [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of 
>   Dana
> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:58 PM
> To: 
>   'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of 
>   batteries
> 
> 
>   
>   On a 
>   similar subject here – 
>   
>   
>   Long ago, I 
>   had a Trojan battery rep. state that they did not like to
> see more than [12] 
>   L-16s in a series –parallel bank system. This was due
> to too many points of 
>   connection  /  resistance and bad communication
> due to multiple flow 
>   paths. 
>   
>   
>   Has anyone 
>   else heard similar or contrary 
>   information/recommendations? 
>   
>   
>   Thanks 
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   Dana 
>   Orzel 
>   
>   
>   Great Solar Works, 
>   Inc 
>   www.solarwork.com 
>   E
> - 
>   d...@solarwork.com 
>   V
> - 
>   970.626.5253 
>   F
> - 
>   970.626.4140 
>   C
> - 
>   970.209.4076 
>   
>   
>   I
> will be the shift 
>   in how the world uses power! - Dana
> Orzel 
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   From: 
>   re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>   [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of Larry 
>   Crutcher, Starlight Solar
> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:42 
>   AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord 
>   batteries, EQUALIZE Them! 
>   
>   
>   If the
> 180 watt panel will 
>   provide enough current to run the recovery process, then
> give it a try. What I 
>   expect is that your current will vary throughout the day.
> Not sure if this is 
>   a critical point or if it will just prolong the process.
> Pay attention to the 
>   temperature. I use a laser temp probe on the
> terminals every 30 minutes 
>   to verify. 
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   Another
> thing to monitor is the 
>   current. It will probably start very low and build
> over time due to 
>   high resistance from sulfated plates. During this time
> the voltage might get 
>   really high and then lower some. Don't worry about
> the voltage. After a while 
>   the current will begin to drop. This means the
> recovery process is 
>   working.  
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   I just
> realized that this 
>   battery bank must be 4 in series and ten parallel
> strings. This is a horrible 
>   design that can never work right without extensive
> monthly maintenance. The 
>   strings with higher resistance will not be charged
> properly. Because of this, 
>   many strings will be undercharged every day. EVERY day!
> So even if you recover 
>   these batteries, s

Re: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen EC 110

[penobscotsolar]

Hey Tump,
   Evergreen still makes these. I suspect Gro or one of the other
Evergreen dealers stocks them.

Daryl




> Anyone have one of these around? Please contact me off list. THANKS
>
>   t...@swnl.net 
> www.SWNL.net
>Solarwinds Northernlights
>Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
>  Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#  610-517-8401
>
>   Blair "TUMP" May
>     MAINE'S CHARTER 
> NABCEP"Certified PV Installer"
>
>     MAINE'S CHARTER 
>Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
>
>
>
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>


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old dual SW4048 system problem

[Jeff Yago]

Called in to trouble shoot a dual Trace SW4048 system that we did not install. 
 
Yes, I know, and we almost never work on systems we did not install, but client was desparate and installer was long gone.  System has about 6 kW solar, 17 kW generator, 16 L-16 batteries, and is set up to "SELL" solar to grid.  Generator has separate automatic grid/gen transfer switch, so AC1 of both inverters conneted to grid supplied panel, AC2 of both inverters connected to inv/gen panel, and both inverters supply an emergency loads panel.   
 
I am convinced this system may have never worked correctly as client had no idea of programming, setpoints, or how system was to work.  I found inverters programmed with mostly defaults, but they were set up for SELL mode.   If only AC2 is supplied from grid/gen transfer switch, system works perfectly in normal and battery backup mode supplying emergency loads panel.  However, if I would turn on the breaker feeding grid power to both AC1 inverter inputs, one inverter would go off line in about 2 minutes and required switch to off then back on to re-start, and will not stay on line with power on AC1.   
 
There was a pull dis-connect located right next to inverters to only dis-connect AC1 power to inverters which may have been originally installed when the contractor had the same problem, and if so, this means the system never sold any solar power to grid and never did anything since the inverters were holding batteries at float except when there was a power outage.
 
If it was not for sell mode, they could leave AC1 dis-connected and everything would work just fine, but its my understanding that SELL mode only feeds power out on AC1 although this is not clearly stated in the owners manual.   We have checked L1 & L2 phasing of all AC1 and AC2 inputs and outputs, but are thinking there may be some type of backfeed issue out in the three separate cir. bkr. panels resulting in the inverter supplying output power to its own input, but so far have not found problem.
 
Any ideas?
 
Thanks,
 
Jeff Yago Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old dual SW4048 system problem

[Jeff Yago]

Called in to trouble shoot a dual Trace SW4048 system that we did not install. 
 
Yes, I know, and we almost never work on systems we did not install, but client was desparate and installer was long gone.  System has about 6 kW solar, 17 kW generator, 16 L-16 batteries, and is set up to "SELL" solar to grid.  Generator has separate automatic grid/gen transfer switch, so AC1 of both inverters conneted to grid supplied panel, AC2 of both inverters connected to inv/gen panel, and both inverters supply an emergency loads panel.   
 
I am convinced this system may have never worked correctly as client had no idea of programming, setpoints, or how system was to work.  I found inverters programmed with mostly defaults, but they were set up for SELL mode.   If only AC2 is supplied from grid/gen transfer switch, system works perfectly in normal and battery backup mode supplying emergency loads panel.  However, if I would turn on the breaker feeding grid power to both AC1 inverter inputs, one inverter would go off line in about 2 minutes and required switch to off then back on to re-start, and will not stay on line with power on AC1.   
 
There was a pull dis-connect located right next to inverters to only dis-connect AC1 power to inverters which may have been originally installed when the contractor had the same problem, and if so, this means the system never sold any solar power to grid and never did anything since the inverters were holding batteries at float except when there was a power outage.
 
If it was not for sell mode, they could leave AC1 dis-connected and everything would work just fine, but its my understanding that SELL mode only feeds power out on AC1 although this is not clearly stated in the owners manual.   We have checked L1 & L2 phasing of all AC1 and AC2 inputs and outputs, but are thinking there may be some type of backfeed issue out in the three separate cir. bkr. panels resulting in the inverter supplying output power to its own input, but so far have not found problem.
 
Any ideas?
 
Thanks,
 
Jeff Yago Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[R Ray Walters]

We cut a hole in the lid of the Vaseline can, and have a tooth brush stuck in
for applying the goo. 

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer

On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

> Years ago we began using Quick-Cote terminal corrosion protector. At about
> $12 a can it has become pricey, but the can includes a brush-in-cap and
> works well. We have bought stock through AEE, but I'm not sure if AEE still
> carries it. I also tell customers that Vaseline works just as well. Done
> right, a set of interconnects can be reused with the next set of batteries.
> 
> We usually give the job of coating terminals and cable ends prior to
> assembly to the customer to do, as nearly all like to get involved hands-on
> and this is a tedious, non-skilled job that provides such engagement.
> 
> Allan Sindelar

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Michael Welch]

My (now retired) C&D flooded batteries came with a can of a dark, grease-like 
paste that was supposedly electrically conductive and that had a higher melting 
point than Vaseline. It did a good job of protecting the interconnect bars and 
the cable end connections. Maybe C&D sells this stuff, but I could not find it 
on their web site.

North Texas Renewable Energy Inc wrote at 07:02 AM 12/2/2009:
 
>Petroleum jelly does work as you say to keep oxygen away from the metal 
>surfaces but its melting temperature is relatively low making it not a 
>long-term solution.
>A device I saw used on an industrial battery bank years ago used a solid brass 
>alloy device. A small oblong plate fits over the battery post, lies flush on 
>the battery case, then the battery cable is attached. A machined brass 
>dome-shaped cover fits snugly over the plate and is attached with small set 
>screws. A grease fitting on the top is where you squirt in special 
>non-corrosive 'grease' until it leaks out around the battery cable opening.
>If the cable/terminal connection is good & tight the connection should not 
>corrode or loosen for a decade or more. The device is no doubt pricey but 
>should last for the life of the bank on a quality installation.
>I have not ever seen this device advertised, or even thought about it until I 
>read Dicks posting. It sounds like it's worth the investment for an enclosed 
>flooded battery enclosure where fumes will accumulate.
>Jim Duncan
>North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
>817.917.0527
>nt...@earthlink.net
>www.ntrei.com
>
>
>- Original Message - From: "Richard L Ratico" 
>
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:00 PM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
>
>
>>Perhaps off topic, it's been said here previously by others, but is worth
>>repeating, good old Vaseline, coating all exposed metal surfaces at battery
>>terminals, totally eliminates the corrosion issue. It's benign, inexpensive 
>>and
>>available everywhere.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old dual SW4048 system problem

[R Ray Walters]

We are finishing an upgrade on a similar system with a pair of SW4024s.
I decided to keep the SWs for generator charging, and as a backup's backup.
We then added a pair of Outbacks GVFXs for sell. The SWs only get powered up 
for generator charging, or if the Outbacks quit.
Interesting thing about this arrangement, is that you could sell generator 
power to the grid. Obviously stupid, but it would work.
The customer was an electrical engineer and he liked the concept of not pulling 
out the SWs.
 
R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:44 AM, Jeff Yago wrote:

> Called in to trouble shoot a dual Trace SW4048 system that we did not 
> install. 
>  
> Yes, I know, and we almost never work on systems we did not install, but 
> client was desparate and installer was long gone.  System has about 6 kW 
> solar, 17 kW generator, 16 L-16 batteries, and is set up to "SELL" solar to 
> grid.  Generator has separate automatic grid/gen transfer switch, so AC1 of 
> both inverters conneted to grid supplied panel, AC2 of both inverters 
> connected to inv/gen panel, and both inverters supply an emergency loads 
> panel.  
>  
> I am convinced this system may have never worked correctly as client had no 
> idea of programming, setpoints, or how system was to work.  I found inverters 
> programmed with mostly defaults, but they were set up for SELL mode.   If 
> only AC2 is supplied from grid/gen transfer switch, system works perfectly in 
> normal and battery backup mode supplying emergency loads panel.  However, if 
> I would turn on the breaker feeding grid power to both AC1 inverter inputs, 
> one inverter would go off line in about 2 minutes and required switch to off 
> then back on to re-start, and will not stay on line with power on AC1.  
>  
> There was a pull dis-connect located right next to inverters to only 
> dis-connect AC1 power to inverters which may have been originally installed 
> when the contractor had the same problem, and if so, this means the system 
> never sold any solar power to grid and never did anything since the inverters 
> were holding batteries at float except when there was a power outage.
>  
> If it was not for sell mode, they could leave AC1 dis-connected and 
> everything would work just fine, but its my understanding that SELL mode only 
> feeds power out on AC1 although this is not clearly stated in the owners 
> manual.   We have checked L1 & L2 phasing of all AC1 and AC2 inputs and 
> outputs, but are thinking there may be some type of backfeed issue out in the 
> three separate cir. bkr. panels resulting in the inverter supplying output 
> power to its own input, but so far have not found problem.
>  
> Any ideas?
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Jeff Yago
> 
>  
> Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] trenching for solar thermal

[Nicholas Ponzio]

Esteemed Wrenches,

What is your preferred method for running thermal lines underground? We are 
about to start a sizable ground-mount system and want to make sure we do 
this right. (I've already seen it done the wrong way, the dirty way, and 
the hard way.)

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Best,
Nik


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy?

[Travis Creswell]

Hi Joel,

 

I think we are all pretty much on the same page.

 

I'm speaking mainly about a full time off grid residence, commonly with
flooded lead acid and of course a fossil back up generator.

 

Most of my full time off gridders don't even need to their generator from
late April to early October.  They report that it's normal that by 10 or 11
am their CC is in float.  Then winter sets in with frequent 2-3 week periods
of clouds.  Like Walt said, where is the magic cloudy day number for me?  Is
it the average of 3 weeks of sun and 3 weeks of clouds for 1.5 weeks of
autonomy?  That's grossly oversized in the summer and still inadequate in
the winter.

 

>From my view, if you need xxx kWh's per month to live that's how many you
need, and days of autonomy aren't that meaningful when you can only generate
1/3rd of that with your array.  You have to run the generator just as many
hours per month regardless of how many days of autonomy, right?  And I
believe that if you factor in charge efficiency and self discharge the
larger the bank has a few more hrs per month of generator usage.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone.

 

Best,

Travis Creswell

Ozark Energy Services

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:38 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy?
wasconcordbatteries, EQUALIZE Them!

 

Hello Travis,

 

I think that 2 days is not enough battery autonomy in the Ozarks and many
other locations unless you have a fossil fuel generator to carry you through
long cloudy periods. Battery autonomy is site and load specific. I've done
systems with as little as 1 day and as much as 3 weeks at 80% depth of
discharge. Lately, I've been generically specing 1.5 days of autonomy at 50%
d.o.d. to get the dialogue started with the customer.

 

I use to spec up to 4 parallel strings of T-105s or L-16s in 2, 4, and 8
batteries in series, but now I keep the number of strings down to 3 or less
and prefer 1 or 2 strings of big 2-volt cells to reduce the number of cells
and connections.

 

Southern California urban and suburban grid-tie PV systems are almost all
non-battery although we still get asked about emergency power - until they
hear how much it adds to the cost of a grid-tie PV system.

 

Joel Davidson

- Original Message - 

From: Travis Creswell   

To: 'RE-wrenches'   

Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 2:15 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy? was
concordbatteries, EQUALIZE Them!

 

IMHO, one of the worst design boo-boo's is going past more then 2 days of
autonomy.  Personally, I no longer size much over one day because it's my
anecdotal observation that most batteries die of old age and being ignored
long before cycles get them.  Speaking mostly about quality deep cycle
flooded.

 

Lots of good things result;

-50%-75% smaller battery bank means a $20,000 battery bank just turned into
$5,000 bank which frees up a ton of money for more modules and now-a-days
you can buy a lot more PV with that money.  More array mean far less
reliance on autonomy.  I'll take the trade all year long.  In the summer we
have 3 to 4 weeks of sun and one day of clouds and in the winter we get 3 to
4 week stretches with 1 sunny day.  Autonomy doesn't really matter in either
case from what I've seen.  The larger the bank means more self discharge
losses, which on large battery banks gets significant as they age.  5-15
years later you'll still have all that array but no matter what you're
looking at new battery bank.

 

-If you study the quality deep cycle manufacturers literature you'll see
that you'll see that anything over 1 day of autonomy is too much to allow
the array to actually charge the battery bank anywhere near the recommended
amps and just like rust, sulfation never sleeps.

 

-Less cells to water

 

-Less space required

 

-Given that a surprisingly high percentage of off gridders totally screw up
on their first bank, no matter how much we all try we might as keep the
stupid tax of replacing a 2.5 yr old battery bank to a minimum.

 

-All of this discussion about cross paralleling, buss bars, TLC with a
gazillion connections and multiple strings goes away.

 

-And the best part is we don't have to carry all of the lead into the
basement and even better back out of the basement!

 

Just my .02.  Feel free to strongly disagree but let's be polite about it.

 

Travis Creswell

Ozark Energy Services

 

 

 


  _  


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:44 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

 

 



I used to think that one string was optimal; until I 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Tom Elliot]

Darryl,

Do you understand the difference between paralleling the "traditional" 
off-grid way through the bank and using a buss bar?  That was my question. 
The installations are quite different.


Tom

--
From: "Darryl Thayer" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:26 AM
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

I know that C&D battery does not like parallel strings and they have a 
device that measures the currents in each string


I investigated a fire from a battery bank of 48 volts 4 strings in 
parallel of 6 Volt 800 AH batteries.  The parallel strings was indicated 
as bad practice and suspect as the cause of the fire.  The battery bank 
was on a standalone system and had poor regulation on charging. (it was 
being charge controlled by a diversion controller)


Also the fire in New Jersey was a parallel string case of 12 volt AGMs in 
4 or more parallel strings (anybody remember better than I?).


DT

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot  wrote:


From: Tom Elliot 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 11:58 AM

Message










I would be very curious to
hear THE battery
company's, or any battery company's, interest in
warranty on a system where the
strings of batteries are paralleled through a buss bar
rather than physically
through the bank.  The vulnerability to failure of an
off-grid system with
only one or two series strings is high enough to be a
concern.  Then
there's also the not un-trivial issue of handling large
batteries
safely.





From: Tump
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:32
AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series
of
batteries


Surrette Battery, THE battery company
suggests NO MORE the 3 parallel
in a string & would like to see 2
preferably.
If
there are more the 3 then they really not interested in
warrantee
issues.
Jamie
where are you??

Now a
days there are plenty of options for a good size/AH BB that
can be configured in
1 or 2 parallel strings.
 Its just that us old guys are having a
harder time w/
gravity!


t...@swnl.netwww.SWNL.net
   Solarwinds
Northernlights
   Serving Mid
Coast Maine & Northern
California
 Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#

610-517-8401



Blair "TUMP"
May
  

MAINE'S CHARTER 


NABCEP"Certified PV
Installer"


    MAINE'S
CHARTER

   Trace
Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"





  -Original Message-
From:
  re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
  [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of
  Dana
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:58 PM
To:
  'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of
  batteries



  On a
  similar subject here –


  Long ago, I
  had a Trojan battery rep. state that they did not like to
see more than [12]
  L-16s in a series –parallel bank system. This was due
to too many points of
  connection  /  resistance and bad communication
due to multiple flow
  paths.


  Has anyone
  else heard similar or contrary
  information/recommendations?


  Thanks





  Dana
  Orzel


  Great Solar Works,
  Inc
  www.solarwork.com
  E
-
  d...@solarwork.com
  V
-
  970.626.5253
  F
-
  970.626.4140
  C
-
  970.209.4076


  I
will be the shift
  in how the world uses power! - Dana
Orzel




  From:
  re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
  [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Larry
  Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:42
  AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord
  batteries, EQUALIZE Them!


  If the
180 watt panel will
  provide enough current to run the recovery process, then
give it a try. What I
  expect is that your current will vary throughout the day.
Not sure if this is
  a critical point or if it will just prolong the process.
Pay attention to the
  temperature. I use a laser temp probe on the
terminals every 30 minutes
  to verify.





  Another
thing to monitor is the
  current. It will probably start very low and build
over time due to
  high resistance from sulfated plates. During this time
the voltage might get
  really high and then lower some. Don't worry about
the voltage. After a while
  the current will begin to drop. This means the
recovery process is
  working.




  I just
realized that this
  battery bank must be 4 in series and ten parallel
strings. This is a horrible
  design that can never work right without extensive
monthly maintenance. The
  strings with higher resistance will not be charged
properly. Because of this,
  many strings will be undercharged every day. EVERY day!
So even if you recover
  these batteries, someone will need to test and equalize
at least every month.
  I really want to stress this point as multiple parallel
batteries are the ruin
  and waste of many thousands of tons of batteries each
year. I never design for
  more than two s

Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar]

Remember when? Yeah, yesterday. I get more than a few tightwad, penny  
pinchers in our store and no matter what I say they are going to do it  
THEIR way.


Quote: "I watch my meter and unhook the panel if it get's to 13 volts"
I'm not kidding.

Another quote: "Life's tough, ...it's even tougher when you are stupid"

Larry


On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:39 AM, Tump wrote:

Here is a good reason to spec out 2 volt cells, all of the  
manufactures have

DC input windows that will allow you to remove 2 volts while getting a
replacment.Conversly we have also installed 26/50 volt battery banks  
for hi

inrush loads.
Remember when you sized BB w/o charge controllers?


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 8:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!


Yes, I've had a 48 v system survive a dead cell (Outback inverter),  
but 24

or 12 v systems are done. So I guess the Sunnyboy can go down to 42 V?

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Dec 1, 2009, at 3:41 PM, Richard L Ratico wrote:


I believe the Sunny Island 5048 can be configured to remain "online"
with up to three cell failures. (Page 90, Sunny Island Manual). Of
course, it is a 48 volt inverter.

Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric

--- You wrote:
I used to think that one string was optimal; until I had a single  
cell

failure take out an entire system for weeks. (try operating a 24 v
system at 22v! ) I now think that 2 parallel strings is optimum,  3  
is

OK, and 4 is max. At 4 parallel strings, we start spending more time
looking to make sure all connectors are the same exact length etc. to
insure equal operation. But of course how do you account for varying
internal resistance of the batteries..?? I've done 4 parallel
strings at 144 DC of sealed batteries on an electric vehicle, but we
were very careful with our resistances, I even switched to smaller
wire, on closer strings, and calculated out the exact resistance, so
all strings were theoretically equal. This set actually just died,  
but

achieved its manufacturer's predicted cycle life. (B&B battery, 350
cycles to 80% DOD) So if you're careful, 4 strings can work well.
Worst I've seen was 20 golf carts paralleled in a 12 v system, (10
strings) and they didn't pull the main connections from across the
set, just connected to one end. The results were very predictable,
with the furthest batteries being chronically under charged, and the
closest ones being over cycled to a premature death.

Ray Walters
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[RE-wrenches] Batteries with no charge controller

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar]

Remember when? Yes, just yesterday.
I get more than a few tightwad, penny pinchers in our store and no  
matter what I say they are going to do it THEIR way.


Quote: "I watch my meter and unhook the panel if it get's to 13 volts"
I'm not kidding.

Another quote: "Life's tough, ...it's even tougher when you are stupid"

Larry

On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:39 AM, Tump wrote:


Remember when you sized BB w/o charge controllers?
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy?

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi all 
I did a paper for the ASES annual conference proceedings, where it suggested 
from actual 8yr? data for Minnesota, that 3 day even 5 day periods of low sun 
were common every year,  but 7 to 10 days was rare, and longer than 15 days 
never occurred (in my data set).  A Phd thesis by J. Clink UofM has a similar 
result. 
Darryl  

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Travis Creswell  wrote:

> From: Travis Creswell 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy?
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 1:35 PM
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> Joel, 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> I think we
> are all pretty much on the same
> page. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> I’m
> speaking mainly about a full
> time off grid residence, commonly with flooded lead acid
> and of course a fossil
> back up generator. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Most of my
> full time off gridders don’t
> even need to their generator from late April to early
> October.  They report
> that it’s normal that by 10 or 11 am their CC is in
> float.  Then
> winter sets in with frequent 2-3 week periods of
> clouds.  Like Walt said,
> where is the magic cloudy day number for me?  Is it
> the average of 3 weeks
> of sun and 3 weeks of clouds for 1.5 weeks of
> autonomy?  That’s
> grossly oversized in the summer and still inadequate in the
> winter. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> From my
> view, if you need xxx kWh’s
> per month to live that’s how many you need, and days
> of autonomy aren’t
> that meaningful when you can only generate 1/3rd
> of that with your
> array.  You have to run the generator just as many
> hours per month
> regardless of how many days of autonomy, right?  And I
> believe that if you
> factor in charge efficiency and self discharge the larger
> the bank has a few
> more hrs per month of generator usage. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Thanks for
> sharing your thoughts everyone. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Travis
> Creswell 
> 
> Ozark
> Energy Services 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
> 
> Sent:
> Tuesday, December 01, 2009
> 6:38 PM
> 
> To:
> RE-wrenches
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [
>  RE-wrenches ] Other's thoughts on Autonomy?
> wasconcordbatteries, EQUALIZE Them! 
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
> 
> Hello
> Travis, 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that 2
> days is not enough battery autonomy in
> the Ozarks and many other locations unless you have a
> fossil fuel
> generator to carry you through long cloudy periods.
> Battery 
> autonomy is site and load specific. I've done systems
> with as little as 1
> day and as much as 3 weeks at 80% depth of discharge.
> Lately, I've been
> generically specing 1.5 days of autonomy at 50% d.o.d. to
> get the dialogue
> started with the customer. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use
> to spec up to 4 parallel strings of T-105s or
> L-16s in 2, 4, and 8 batteries in series, but now I keep
> the number of strings
> down to 3 or less and prefer 1 or 2 strings of
> big 2-volt cells to
> reduce the number of cells and
> connections. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Southern
> California urban and
> suburban
> grid-tie PV systems are almost all non-battery although we
> still get asked
> about emergency power - until they hear how much it adds to
> the cost of a
> grid-tie PV system. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joel
> Davidson 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original
> Message -  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Travis
> Creswell  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday,
> December
> 01, 2009 2:15 PM 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: Re:
> [RE-wrenches]
> Other's thoughts on Autonomy? was concordbatteries,
> EQUALIZE Them! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, one
> of the worst design
> boo-boo’s is going past more then 2 days of
> autonomy.  Personally, I
> no longer size much over one day because it’s my
> anecdotal observation that
> most batteries die of old age and being ignored long before
> cycles get
> them.  Speaking mostly about quality deep cycle
> flooded. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Lots of
> good things result; 
> 
> -50%-75%
> smaller battery bank means a
> $20,000 battery bank just turned into $5,000 bank which
> frees up a ton of money
> for more modules and now-a-days you can buy a lot more PV
> with that
> money.  More array mean far less reliance on
> autonomy.  I’ll
> take the trade all year long.  In the summer we have 3
> to 4 weeks of sun
> and one day of clouds and in the winter we get 3 to 4 week
> stretches with 1
> sunny day.  Autonomy doesn’t really matter in
> either case from what
> I’ve seen.  The larger the bank means more self
> discharge losses,
> which on large battery banks gets significant as they age.
>  5-15 years
> later you’ll still have all that array but no matter
> what you’re
> looking at new battery bank. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> -If you
> study the quality deep cycle
> manufacturers literature

[RE-wrenches] 2 vdc load testers

[Dana]

Thanks for the lead it is Interesting. I noted that it only goes to 500 AHR
and the smallest cell I have is 1,575AHR and biggest is 1,990AHR. I will
call and see if this can be compensated for a larger cell. I have been a
good enough boy at least this year.

 

Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

 

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 vdc load testers

 

Hey Dana;

 

I just found this new Amprobe Battery tester the other day when I was coming
up with my Santa wish list. 

I don't know if I've been a good enough boy though, they retail I think for
about $700.

http://amprobe.com/cgi-bin/pdc/viewprod.cgi?pid=2425

&tid=main_e&type=elec

 

They also have a portable IV tester for PV modules, but it only does
individual modules, not strings (limited to 60 v)

 

R. Walters

r...@solarray.com

Solar Engineer

 

 

 

 

On Dec 1, 2009, at 4:01 PM, Dana wrote:





I use HUP Solar One batteries 98% of the time , they are banks of 2 volt
cells  in a 12 volt cans. I have banks that are16 years old now and I would
like to test individual cells.

 

Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com  

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

 

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of robert
ellison
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 3:56 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 vdc load testers

 

Generally the load testers can test up to 48 volt banks and the entire set
is tested over the 6 hour period  Trying to do it with a hand held tester
probably wouldnt cut it. It takes 6 hours and a hand unit can't do it.

You could try it with a clamp on meter and any variable load that sucks up 2
volts. Do you only have to test a single cell?

 

Bob 

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Dana  wrote:

Does anyone have knowledge of a 2 volt battery cell load tester? 12 volt we
have and have not been able to find a 2 volt tester.

 

Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com  

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

 

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel


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No virus found in this incoming message.
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[RE-wrenches] Battery autonomy

[Dana]

We still work with 4-5 days autonomy. This matches our storm cycle here in
western CO. If its full they make it through if not the generator backs it
up. 
Every bank is a HUP solar one battery bank that I have installed in the last
16 years and is still in service and healthy:
Except for :
1 house burned down due to a LP gas refrigerator.
1 client knew more than I do, ha ha.
1 client sold the house to an ecstasy lab idiot who never serviced the
battery bank.

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com
E - d...@solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Travis
Creswell
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 3:16 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Other's thoughts on Autonomy? was concord
batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

IMHO, one of the worst design boo-boo's is going past more then 2 days of
autonomy.  Personally, I no longer size much over one day because it'
s my anecdotal observation that most batteries die of old age and being
ignored long before cycles get them.  Speaking mostly about quality deep
cycle flooded.

 

Lots of good things result;

-50%-75% smaller battery bank means a $20,000 battery bank just turned into
$5,000 bank which frees up a ton of money for more modules and now-a-days
you can buy a lot more PV with that money.  More array mean far less
reliance on autonomy.  I'll take the trade all year long.  In the summer we
have 3 to 4 weeks of sun and one day of clouds and in the winter we get 3 to
4 week stretches with 1 sunny day.  Autonomy doesn't really matter in either
case from what I've seen.  The larger the bank means more self discharge
losses, which on large battery banks gets significant as they age.  5-15
years later you'll still have all that array but no matter what you're
looking at new battery bank.

 

-If you study the quality deep cycle manufacturers literature you'll see
that you'll see that anything over 1 day of autonomy is too much to allow
the array to actually charge the battery bank anywhere near the recommended
amps and just like rust, sulfation never sleeps.

 

-Less cells to water

 

-Less space required

 

-Given that a surprisingly high percentage of off gridders totally screw up
on their first bank, no matter how much we all try we might as keep the
stupid tax of replacing a 2.5 yr old battery bank to a minimum.

 

-All of this discussion about cross paralleling, buss bars, TLC with a
gazillion connections and multiple strings goes away.

 

-And the best part is we don't have to carry all of the lead into the
basement and even better back out of the basement!

 

Just my .02.  Feel free to strongly disagree but let's be polite about it.

 

Travis Creswell

Ozark Energy Services

 

 

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:44 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

 

 

I used to think that one string was optimal; until I had a single cell
failure take out an entire system for weeks. (try operating a 24 v system at
22v! )

I now think that 2 parallel strings is optimum,  3 is OK, and 4 is max.

At 4 parallel strings, we start spending more time looking to make sure all
connectors are the same exact length etc. to insure equal operation.

But of course how do you account for varying internal resistance of the
batteries..??

I've done 4 parallel strings at 144 DC of sealed batteries on an electric
vehicle, but we were very careful with our resistances, I even switched to
smaller wire, on closer strings, and calculated out the exact resistance, so
all strings were theoretically equal. This set actually just died, but
achieved its manufacturer's predicted cycle life. (B&B battery, 350 cycles
to 80% DOD)

So if you're careful, 4 strings can work well.

Worst I've seen was 20 golf carts paralleled in a 12 v system, (10
strings) and they didn't pull the main connections from across the set, just
connected to one end.

The results were very predictable, with the furthest batteries being
chronically under charged, and the closest ones being over cycled to a
premature death.

 

Ray Walters

 

 

On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:28 AM, wind...@wind-sun.com wrote:





You gotta wonder about why the customer bought such a battery layout, or why
the installer sold that kind of configuration (which ever it was) with so
many small batteries. We would never recommend going over 2 parallel banks,
but sometimes the "customer knows best...".

 

 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.87/2536 - Release Date: 12/01/09
00:59:00

_

[RE-wrenches] trenching for solar thermal

[Dana]

>From Snow country in CO this is our formula:

 

Dig a clean trench with a flat bottom. Allow for height of insulated package
and sufficient back fill so you do not end up with a dead line of grass
across the yard.

 

Line with 12 mil plastic or heavier,  12 mil poly has a 12,000 year lifespan
when not exposed to UV[ all our garbage is nicely packaged for future
archaeologists] . Allow extra to fold back over side  to side and be able to
overlap..

 

Lay 2x4 blocks on edge every 3-4 feet, for temporary pipe support till the
foam sets up.

 

Install either soft or hard copper pipe [never use PEX or any kind of
plastic] and silver solder [only no regular solder] and then pressure check
for 24 to 48 hours. We install a ½” electrical PVC conduit to run sensor
wire through too so you can change it out if there is ever a problem.

 

Spray foam under over and around to achieve a minimum 4-5” coverage on all
sides. We have used commercial spray operations and the 5 gallon / 2 part
do-it-yourself commercial spray foam [Versi-foam] there are others out there
too. Allow foam to cure to hard before next step.

 

Fold plastic back over. Back fill carefully do not puncture plastic; if
rocky soil cover plastic with scrap card board, old carpet, or newsprint to
temporarily protect the plastic during backfill. Water will wick heat away
as fast or faster than exposed pipe.

 

We have 200’ runs that do not loose even1 deg. F end to end.

 

There are a lot of commercial products out there but this works great, is
relatively inexpensive, and to date never had a failure.

 

Enjoy -

 

 

Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

 

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nicholas
Ponzio
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] trenching for solar thermal

 

Esteemed Wrenches,

What is your preferred method for running thermal lines underground? We are
about to start a sizable ground-mount system and want to make sure we do
this right. (I've already seen it done the wrong way, the dirty way, and the
hard way.)

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Best,
Nik



No virus found in this incoming message.
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Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.87/2536 - Release Date: 12/02/09
00:33:00

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Re: [RE-wrenches] trenching for solar thermal

[Carl Hansen]

Nik,
We cover our insulated copper pipes with the 4" plastic corrugated 
drain pipe available at Low's or Home Depot. After the pipe's are insulated we 
run this drain pipe from one end to the other. It takes two people, we try to 
avoid using 90 degree fittings instead two 45's or use flex copper. Its hard to 
get the drain pipe around a 90 degree elbow.

  Carl
  Hansen&Sun Elect.
  (505) 470-0770
  - Original Message - 
  From: Nicholas Ponzio 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:12 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] trenching for solar thermal


  Esteemed Wrenches,

  What is your preferred method for running thermal lines underground? We are 
about to start a sizable ground-mount system and want to make sure we do this 
right. (I've already seen it done the wrong way, the dirty way, and the hard 
way.)

  Thanks in advance for any feedback.

  Best,
  Nik





--


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

No,  Tom I am not sure that I know the difference between bus bars and cable 
paralleling.  

But I do know that warmer batteries have a lower voltage than cold batteries, 
this difference is even greater for sealed than flooded. If one battery has a 
higher temperature than another battery that it is in parallel with the warmer 
battery will get a greater charge current, the cooler battery will get less 
charge current. The more charge current AND it will generate more heat.  Then 
the warmer battery well get warmer still and have an even lower voltage and 
have a higher current, making it warmer still.  If it goes to far the 
paralleled batteries will start to dump power into the hot battery and you have 
thermal runaway, which is always bad news.  But even if you do not go to 
runaway, you have a temperature based uneven charging.  

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot  wrote:

> From: Tom Elliot 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 2:00 PM
> Darryl,
> 
> Do you understand the difference between paralleling the
> "traditional" 
> off-grid way through the bank and using a buss bar? 
> That was my question. 
> The installations are quite different.
> 
> Tom
> 
> --
> From: "Darryl Thayer" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:26 AM
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
> 
> > I know that C&D battery does not like parallel
> strings and they have a 
> > device that measures the currents in each string
> >
> > I investigated a fire from a battery bank of 48 volts
> 4 strings in 
> > parallel of 6 Volt 800 AH batteries.  The
> parallel strings was indicated 
> > as bad practice and suspect as the cause of the
> fire.  The battery bank 
> > was on a standalone system and had poor regulation on
> charging. (it was 
> > being charge controlled by a diversion controller)
> >
> > Also the fire in New Jersey was a parallel string case
> of 12 volt AGMs in 
> > 4 or more parallel strings (anybody remember better
> than I?).
> >
> > DT
> >
> > --- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot 
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Tom Elliot 
> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of
> batteries
> >> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> >> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 11:58 AM
> >>
> >> Message
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I would be very curious to
> >> hear THE battery
> >> company's, or any battery company's, interest in
> >> warranty on a system where the
> >> strings of batteries are paralleled through a buss
> bar
> >> rather than physically
> >> through the bank.  The vulnerability to
> failure of an
> >> off-grid system with
> >> only one or two series strings is high enough to
> be a
> >> concern.  Then
> >> there's also the not un-trivial issue of handling
> large
> >> batteries
> >> safely.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Tump
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:32
> >> AM
> >> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series
> >> of
> >> batteries
> >>
> >>
> >> Surrette Battery, THE battery company
> >> suggests NO MORE the 3 parallel
> >> in a string & would like to see 2
> >> preferably.
> >> If
> >> there are more the 3 then they really not
> interested in
> >> warrantee
> >> issues.
> >> Jamie
> >> where are you??
> >>
> >> Now a
> >> days there are plenty of options for a good
> size/AH BB that
> >> can be configured in
> >> 1 or 2 parallel strings.
> >>  Its just that us old guys are having a
> >> harder time w/
> >> gravity!
> >>
> >>
> >>     t...@swnl.net 
>       www.SWNL.net
> >>           
> Solarwinds
> >> Northernlights
> >>    Serving Mid
> >> Coast Maine & Northern
> >> California
> >>      Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#
> >>
> >> 610-517-8401
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Blair "TUMP"
> >> May
> >>       
> >>
> >> MAINE'S CHARTER 
> >>
> >>
> >> NABCEP    "Certified PV
> >> Installer"
> >>
> >>
> >>        
> MAINE'S
> >> CHARTER
> >> 
> >>    Trace
> >> Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   -Original Message-
> >> From:
> >>   re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>   [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On
> >> Behalf Of
> >>   Dana
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:58 PM
> >> To:
> >>   'RE-wrenches'
> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of
> >>   batteries
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   On a
> >>   similar subject here –
> >>
> >>
> >>   Long ago, I
> >>   had a Trojan battery rep. state
> that they did not like to
> >> see more than [12]
> >>   L-16s in a series –parallel
> bank system. This was due
> >> to too many points of
> >>   connection  / 
> resistance and bad communication
> >> due to multiple flow
> >>   paths.
> >>
> >>
> >>   Has anyone
> >>   else heard similar or contrary
> >>   information/recommendations?
> >>
> >>
> >>   Thanks
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   Dana
> >>  

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Tom Elliot]

Darryl,

The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching each serial 
string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring series pairs so 
batteries aren't passing current through each other and aren't affected by 
each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then feed the inverter 
breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco installations which is where 
I got clued into the process.  I got some batteries from a wholesaler who 
did those installations and he was aghast at the idea of series/parallel 
installations the way off-grid systems have been done traditionally.


Tom

--
From: "Darryl Thayer" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:04 PM
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

No,  Tom I am not sure that I know the difference between bus bars and 
cable paralleling.


But I do know that warmer batteries have a lower voltage than cold 
batteries, this difference is even greater for sealed than flooded. If one 
battery has a higher temperature than another battery that it is in 
parallel with the warmer battery will get a greater charge current, the 
cooler battery will get less charge current. The more charge current AND 
it will generate more heat.  Then the warmer battery well get warmer still 
and have an even lower voltage and have a higher current, making it warmer 
still.  If it goes to far the paralleled batteries will start to dump 
power into the hot battery and you have thermal runaway, which is always 
bad news.  But even if you do not go to runaway, you have a temperature 
based uneven charging.


--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot  wrote:


From: Tom Elliot 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 2:00 PM
Darryl,

Do you understand the difference between paralleling the
"traditional"
off-grid way through the bank and using a buss bar?
That was my question.
The installations are quite different.

Tom

--
From: "Darryl Thayer" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:26 AM
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

> I know that C&D battery does not like parallel
strings and they have a
> device that measures the currents in each string
>
> I investigated a fire from a battery bank of 48 volts
4 strings in
> parallel of 6 Volt 800 AH batteries.  The
parallel strings was indicated
> as bad practice and suspect as the cause of the
fire.  The battery bank
> was on a standalone system and had poor regulation on
charging. (it was
> being charge controlled by a diversion controller)
>
> Also the fire in New Jersey was a parallel string case
of 12 volt AGMs in
> 4 or more parallel strings (anybody remember better
than I?).
>
> DT
>
> --- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot 
wrote:
>
>> From: Tom Elliot 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of
batteries
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 11:58 AM
>>
>> Message
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would be very curious to
>> hear THE battery
>> company's, or any battery company's, interest in
>> warranty on a system where the
>> strings of batteries are paralleled through a buss
bar
>> rather than physically
>> through the bank.  The vulnerability to
failure of an
>> off-grid system with
>> only one or two series strings is high enough to
be a
>> concern.  Then
>> there's also the not un-trivial issue of handling
large
>> batteries
>> safely.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Tump
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:32
>> AM
>> To: 'RE-wrenches'
>>
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series
>> of
>> batteries
>>
>>
>> Surrette Battery, THE battery company
>> suggests NO MORE the 3 parallel
>> in a string & would like to see 2
>> preferably.
>> If
>> there are more the 3 then they really not
interested in
>> warrantee
>> issues.
>> Jamie
>> where are you??
>>
>> Now a
>> days there are plenty of options for a good
size/AH BB that
>> can be configured in
>> 1 or 2 parallel strings.
>>  Its just that us old guys are having a
>> harder time w/
>> gravity!
>>
>>
>> t...@swnl.net
  www.SWNL.net
>>
Solarwinds
>> Northernlights
>>Serving Mid
>> Coast Maine & Northern
>> California
>>  Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#
>>
>> 610-517-8401
>>
>>
>>
>> Blair "TUMP"
>> May
>>   
>>
>> MAINE'S CHARTER 
>>
>>
>> NABCEP"Certified PV
>> Installer"
>>
>>
>>   
MAINE'S
>> CHARTER
>> 
>>Trace
>> Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   -Original Message-
>> From:
>>   re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>   [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
On
>> Behalf Of
>>   Dana
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:58 PM
>> To:
>>   'RE-wrenches'
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of
>>   batteries
>>
>>
>>
>>   On a
>>   similar subject here –
>>
>>
>>   Long ago, I
>>   had 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Chris Worcester]

I've used the Ilsco Polaris 14 hole Insultaps in the 250 MCM size for a large 
system (10 OB VFX3648's & two strings of the Rolls 2-KS-33's) battery bank Pos 
& Neg bus bars. They worked great.

Sincerely,

Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
ch...@solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Elliot
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:19 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

Darryl,

The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching each serial 
string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring series pairs so 
batteries aren't passing current through each other and aren't affected by 
each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then feed the inverter 
breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco installations which is where 
I got clued into the process.  I got some batteries from a wholesaler who 
did those installations and he was aghast at the idea of series/parallel 
installations the way off-grid systems have been done traditionally.

Tom

--
From: "Darryl Thayer" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:04 PM
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

> No,  Tom I am not sure that I know the difference between bus bars and 
> cable paralleling.
>
> But I do know that warmer batteries have a lower voltage than cold 
> batteries, this difference is even greater for sealed than flooded. If one 
> battery has a higher temperature than another battery that it is in 
> parallel with the warmer battery will get a greater charge current, the 
> cooler battery will get less charge current. The more charge current AND 
> it will generate more heat.  Then the warmer battery well get warmer still 
> and have an even lower voltage and have a higher current, making it warmer 
> still.  If it goes to far the paralleled batteries will start to dump 
> power into the hot battery and you have thermal runaway, which is always 
> bad news.  But even if you do not go to runaway, you have a temperature 
> based uneven charging.
>
> --- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot  wrote:
>
>> From: Tom Elliot 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 2:00 PM
>> Darryl,
>>
>> Do you understand the difference between paralleling the
>> "traditional"
>> off-grid way through the bank and using a buss bar?
>> That was my question.
>> The installations are quite different.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> --
>> From: "Darryl Thayer" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:26 AM
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
>>
>> > I know that C&D battery does not like parallel
>> strings and they have a
>> > device that measures the currents in each string
>> >
>> > I investigated a fire from a battery bank of 48 volts
>> 4 strings in
>> > parallel of 6 Volt 800 AH batteries.  The
>> parallel strings was indicated
>> > as bad practice and suspect as the cause of the
>> fire.  The battery bank
>> > was on a standalone system and had poor regulation on
>> charging. (it was
>> > being charge controlled by a diversion controller)
>> >
>> > Also the fire in New Jersey was a parallel string case
>> of 12 volt AGMs in
>> > 4 or more parallel strings (anybody remember better
>> than I?).
>> >
>> > DT
>> >
>> > --- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Tom Elliot 
>> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of
>> batteries
>> >> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> >> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 11:58 AM
>> >>
>> >> Message
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I would be very curious to
>> >> hear THE battery
>> >> company's, or any battery company's, interest in
>> >> warranty on a system where the
>> >> strings of batteries are paralleled through a buss
>> bar
>> >> rather than physically
>> >> through the bank.  The vulnerability to
>> failure of an
>> >> off-grid system with
>> >> only one or two series strings is high enough to
>> be a
>> >> concern.  Then
>> >> there's also the not un-trivial issue of handling
>> large
>> >> batteries
>> >> safely.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: Tump
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:32
>> >> AM
>> >> To: 'RE-wrenches'
>> >>
>> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series
>> >> of
>> >> batteries
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Surrette Battery, THE battery company
>> >> suggests NO MORE the 3 parallel
>> >> in a string & would like to see 2
>> >> preferably.
>> >> If
>> >> there are more the 3 then they really not
>> interested in
>> >> warrantee
>> >> issues.
>> >> Jamie
>> >> where are you??
>> >>
>> >> Now a
>> >> days there 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Walt Ratterman]

Hello Chris,

We use the Polaris Insultaps all the time, but we have usually used them for 
the battery paralleling only.  Are you using these for the negative common bus 
bar as well (in place of the bus bar in the flexware??)  And are you doing the 
same thing for the positive bus bar?

Thanks

Walt

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Worcester
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:47 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

I've used the Ilsco Polaris 14 hole Insultaps in the 250 MCM size for a large 
system (10 OB VFX3648's & two strings of the Rolls 2-KS-33's) battery bank Pos 
& Neg bus bars. They worked great.

Sincerely,

Chris Worcester
Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com
ch...@solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Elliot
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:19 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

Darryl,

The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching each serial 
string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring series pairs so 
batteries aren't passing current through each other and aren't affected by 
each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then feed the inverter 
breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco installations which is where 
I got clued into the process.  I got some batteries from a wholesaler who 
did those installations and he was aghast at the idea of series/parallel 
installations the way off-grid systems have been done traditionally.

Tom

--
From: "Darryl Thayer" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:04 PM
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

> No,  Tom I am not sure that I know the difference between bus bars and 
> cable paralleling.
>
> But I do know that warmer batteries have a lower voltage than cold 
> batteries, this difference is even greater for sealed than flooded. If one 
> battery has a higher temperature than another battery that it is in 
> parallel with the warmer battery will get a greater charge current, the 
> cooler battery will get less charge current. The more charge current AND 
> it will generate more heat.  Then the warmer battery well get warmer still 
> and have an even lower voltage and have a higher current, making it warmer 
> still.  If it goes to far the paralleled batteries will start to dump 
> power into the hot battery and you have thermal runaway, which is always 
> bad news.  But even if you do not go to runaway, you have a temperature 
> based uneven charging.
>
> --- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot  wrote:
>
>> From: Tom Elliot 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 2:00 PM
>> Darryl,
>>
>> Do you understand the difference between paralleling the
>> "traditional"
>> off-grid way through the bank and using a buss bar?
>> That was my question.
>> The installations are quite different.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> --
>> From: "Darryl Thayer" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:26 AM
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
>>
>> > I know that C&D battery does not like parallel
>> strings and they have a
>> > device that measures the currents in each string
>> >
>> > I investigated a fire from a battery bank of 48 volts
>> 4 strings in
>> > parallel of 6 Volt 800 AH batteries.  The
>> parallel strings was indicated
>> > as bad practice and suspect as the cause of the
>> fire.  The battery bank
>> > was on a standalone system and had poor regulation on
>> charging. (it was
>> > being charge controlled by a diversion controller)
>> >
>> > Also the fire in New Jersey was a parallel string case
>> of 12 volt AGMs in
>> > 4 or more parallel strings (anybody remember better
>> than I?).
>> >
>> > DT
>> >
>> > --- On Wed, 12/2/09, Tom Elliot 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Tom Elliot 
>> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of
>> batteries
>> >> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> >> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 11:58 AM
>> >>
>> >> Message
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I would be very curious to
>> >> hear THE battery
>> >> company's, or any battery company's, interest in
>> >> warranty on a system where the
>> >> strings of batteries are paralleled through a buss
>> bar
>> >> rather than physically
>> >> through the bank.  The vulnerability to
>> failure of an
>> >> off-grid system with
>> >> only one or two series strings is high enough to
>> be a
>> >> concern.  Then
>> >> there's also the not un-trivial issue of handl

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[wind...@wind-sun.com]

Vaseline simply is not very good for battery terminals. The melting point is 
too low. There are other things that are much better, such as some high 
temperature grease, and the silicone grease high temp greases. The silicone 
is the most chemical resistant but is a bit expensive.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message - 
From: "R Ray Walters" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


We cut a hole in the lid of the Vaseline can, and have a tooth brush stuck 
in

for applying the goo.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer

On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Years ago we began using Quick-Cote terminal corrosion protector. At 
about

$12 a can it has become pricey, but the can includes a brush-in-cap and
works well. We have bought stock through AEE, but I'm not sure if AEE 
still

carries it. I also tell customers that Vaseline works just as well. Done
right, a set of interconnects can be reused with the next set of 
batteries.


We usually give the job of coating terminals and cable ends prior to
assembly to the customer to do, as nearly all like to get involved 
hands-on

and this is a tedious, non-skilled job that provides such engagement.

Allan Sindelar


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

I clean,apply grease, then apply antiseze to SS bolts and washers, then 
assemble.  Then I apply grease over the exterior.  The Lithium grease sounds 
good to me. But why wear gloves? 
DArryl  

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, wind...@wind-sun.com  wrote:

> From: wind...@wind-sun.com 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 5:01 PM
> Vaseline simply is not very good for
> battery terminals. The melting point is too low. There are
> other things that are much better, such as some high
> temperature grease, and the silicone grease high temp
> greases. The silicone is the most chemical resistant but is
> a bit expensive.
> 
> ..
> Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun
> Since 1979
> Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
> ..
> - Original Message - From: "R Ray Walters" 
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
> 
> 
> > We cut a hole in the lid of the Vaseline can, and have
> a tooth brush stuck in
> > for applying the goo.
> > 
> > R. Walters
> > r...@solarray.com
> > Solar Engineer
> > 
> > On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
> > 
> >> Years ago we began using Quick-Cote terminal
> corrosion protector. At about
> >> $12 a can it has become pricey, but the can
> includes a brush-in-cap and
> >> works well. We have bought stock through AEE, but
> I'm not sure if AEE still
> >> carries it. I also tell customers that Vaseline
> works just as well. Done
> >> right, a set of interconnects can be reused with
> the next set of batteries.
> >> 
> >> We usually give the job of coating terminals and
> cable ends prior to
> >> assembly to the customer to do, as nearly all like
> to get involved hands-on
> >> and this is a tedious, non-skilled job that
> provides such engagement.
> >> 
> >> Allan Sindelar
> > 
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > Options & settings:
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> > 
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> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > List rules & etiquette:
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> > 
> > Check out participant bios:
> > www.members.re-wrenches.org
> > 
> 
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> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> 


  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Michael Welch]

I wish I understood this bus bar use better. Electrically, these seem to be the 
same thing. But by using the bus bar, there has to be more cables, cable ends, 
and connection points. And cost.

I just drew a battery bank (see below link to graphic), three series strings in 
parallel. On the negative side I drew a bus bar. On the positive side I drew 
normal parallel cable interconnects.

The bus bar side requires 3 cables with 6 cable ends and 6 interconnection 
points.

The cable side requires 2 cables with 4 cable ends and 3 interconnection points.

How can a bus bar possibly be better? There will always be one more cable, and 
2 more cable ends to connect.

I do not see how either way could cause the current for one battery pass 
through another. It is merely using the terminal of the battery as a connector 
between two cables. Ditto for any difference in how internal resistance reacts, 
they both seem the same to me.

Related question #2:

It also has been noticed that some installers use "cross tie" interconnects for 
paralleling batteries in the middle of the series strings where the positive of 
one battery connects to the negative of the other -- not just at the final pos. 
and neg. outer ends of the strings. In fact, some even recommend two cables 
between:
http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cross-tied-battery-bank-300x187.jpg

What's up with that? If it helps make charging equal, is it worth the extra 
expenses and connections involved?

Here is a little jpg that illustrates both of these questions:
ftp://ftp.re-wrenches.org/pub/bbvscablewcrossties.jpg



Tom Elliot wrote at 02:19 PM 12/2/2009:
 
>Darryl, The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching each 
>serial string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring series pairs 
>so batteries aren't passing current through each other and aren't affected by 
>each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then feed the inverter 
>breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco installations which is where I 
>got clued into the process.  I got some batteries from a wholesaler who did 
>those installations and he was aghast at the idea of series/parallel 
>installations the way off-grid systems have been done traditionally. 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar]

Another YES for silicon. We have used it for years. A very thin coat  
will last a long time. I have seen the gooey mess for heated vaseline  
more than once.


Larry

On Dec 2, 2009, at 4:01 PM, wind...@wind-sun.com wrote:

Vaseline simply is not very good for battery terminals. The melting  
point is too low. There are other things that are much better, such  
as some high temperature grease, and the silicone grease high temp  
greases. The silicone is the most chemical resistant but is a bit  
expensive.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Mick Abraham]

I also have been following this thread and wondering "whazzup" about
buss bars being better than just parallel cables from one battery
string to the next.

Agreed that the parallel cable method "is merely using the terminal of
the battery as a connector between two cables." Maybe if there's big
amperage involved on that battery post and that post warms up then
conducts heat to the inner structure of that battery...maybe...but
those lead posts are massive enough that it would take a lot of
amperage...plus maybe a deteriorating connection to generate much
heat.

I advocate "cross-tying" the pack as a way to average out strong/weak
monoblocs. This is electrically much the same as if the monoblocs were
bigger ampacity because the cross-ties mimic what occurs inside each
plastic case with plates in parallel.

Steve at Green Trust had posted the cross-tie diagram as referenced by
Michael and asked my opinion. I opined that using two cross ties at
each "voltage node" in the series string is redundant and cannot
improve upon what occurs when using only one cross tie at each voltage
node. Unfortunately I cannot now find my explanation of that on
Steve's website.

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675



On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Michael Welch
 wrote:
>
> I wish I understood this bus bar use better. Electrically, these seem to be 
> the same thing. But by using the bus bar, there has to be more cables, cable 
> ends, and connection points. And cost.
>
> I just drew a battery bank (see below link to graphic), three series strings 
> in parallel. On the negative side I drew a bus bar. On the positive side I 
> drew normal parallel cable interconnects.
>
> The bus bar side requires 3 cables with 6 cable ends and 6 interconnection 
> points.
>
> The cable side requires 2 cables with 4 cable ends and 3 interconnection 
> points.
>
> How can a bus bar possibly be better? There will always be one more cable, 
> and 2 more cable ends to connect.
>
> I do not see how either way could cause the current for one battery pass 
> through another. It is merely using the terminal of the battery as a 
> connector between two cables. Ditto for any difference in how internal 
> resistance reacts, they both seem the same to me.
>
> Related question #2:
>
> It also has been noticed that some installers use "cross tie" interconnects 
> for paralleling batteries in the middle of the series strings where the 
> positive of one battery connects to the negative of the other -- not just at 
> the final pos. and neg. outer ends of the strings. In fact, some even 
> recommend two cables between:
> http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cross-tied-battery-bank-300x187.jpg
>
> What's up with that? If it helps make charging equal, is it worth the extra 
> expenses and connections involved?
>
> Here is a little jpg that illustrates both of these questions:
> ftp://ftp.re-wrenches.org/pub/bbvscablewcrossties.jpg
>
>
>
> Tom Elliot wrote at 02:19 PM 12/2/2009:
>
>>Darryl, The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching each 
>>serial string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring series pairs 
>>so batteries aren't passing current through each other and aren't affected by 
>>each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then feed the inverter 
>>breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco installations which is where 
>>I got clued into the process.  I got some batteries from a wholesaler who did 
>>those installations and he was aghast at the idea of series/parallel 
>>installations the way off-grid systems have been done traditionally.
>
>
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[James Surrette]

Hi Tump et al. 

In the UK, so sorry for slow response. 

Must echo your comments.  A series string is, without a doubt, the most
efficient and things just get more complicated (connections, numbers of
cells, voltage disparity) as you add parallel strings.  Per Tom's
comments, the only solution to multiple banks is bus bars  

Regards, 

Jamie


James Surrette

Surrette Battery Co. Ltd
1 Station Rd.
Springhill, NS, CAN
B0M 1X0

Direct: 902.597.4027
Fax: 902.597.8447




>>> "Tump"  12/2/2009 8:32 AM >>>

Surrette Battery, THE battery company suggests NO MORE the 3 parallel
in a string & would like to see 2 preferably. 

If there are more the 3 then they really not interested in warrantee
issues. 

Jamie where are you?? 

  

Now a days there are plenty of options for a good size/AH BB that can
be configured in 1 or 2 parallel strings. 

 Its just that us old guys are having a harder time w/ gravity! 

  

  

t...@swnl.netwww.SWNL.net ( http://www.swnl.net/ )
   Solarwinds Northernlights   

   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
 Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#  610-517-8401 

  

  Blair "TUMP" May 

    MAINE'S CHARTER 
NABCEP"Certified PV Installer"
  
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
   Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"


   




-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:58 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


On a similar subject here – 
   
Long ago, I had a Trojan battery rep. state that they did not like to
see more than [12] L-16s in a series –parallel bank system. This was due
to too many points of connection  /  resistance and bad communication
due to multiple flow paths. 
   
Has anyone else heard similar or contrary information/recommendations?

   
Thanks 
   
   

Dana Orzel 
   
Great Solar Works, Inc 
www.solarwork.com 
E - d...@solarwork.com 
V - 970.626.5253 
F - 970.626.4140 
C - 970.209.4076 
   
I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel 

   

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them! 

  
If the 180 watt panel will provide enough current to run the recovery
process, then give it a try. What I expect is that your current will
vary throughout the day. Not sure if this is a critical point or if it
will just prolong the process. Pay attention to the temperature. I use a
laser temp probe on the terminals every 30 minutes to verify. 

  

Another thing to monitor is the current. It will probably start very
low and build over time due to high resistance from sulfated plates.
During this time the voltage might get really high and then lower some.
Don't worry about the voltage. After a while the current will begin to
drop. This means the recovery process is working.  

  

I just realized that this battery bank must be 4 in series and ten
parallel strings. This is a horrible design that can never work right
without extensive monthly maintenance. The strings with higher
resistance will not be charged properly. Because of this, many strings
will be undercharged every day. EVERY day! So even if you recover these
batteries, someone will need to test and equalize at least every month.
I really want to stress this point as multiple parallel batteries are
the ruin and waste of many thousands of tons of batteries each year. I
never design for more than two strings in parallel. Do this and be
happy. 

   

Larry Crutcher 

www.starlightsolar.com 

la...@starlightsolar.com 

(928) 941-1660 

   
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Walt Ratterman]

Michael:

The bus bar solution has to do at least partially, with:

 - Equal resistance paths to each string of batteries (need to keep the
circuit cables the same length).
 - Ability to remove (isolate) a string more easily.


With two strings, if the bus bar capacity exists in the hardware of the
inverter system (such as the bus in the flexware) simply bring back a large
battery cable from each of the two strings to the flexware and the bus in
the flexware becomes the bus bar.  (with a fuse in each positive)

Thanks,

Walt
SunEnergy Power International
www.SunEPI.org

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Welch
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:00 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


I wish I understood this bus bar use better. Electrically, these seem to be
the same thing. But by using the bus bar, there has to be more cables, cable
ends, and connection points. And cost.

I just drew a battery bank (see below link to graphic), three series strings
in parallel. On the negative side I drew a bus bar. On the positive side I
drew normal parallel cable interconnects.

The bus bar side requires 3 cables with 6 cable ends and 6 interconnection
points.

The cable side requires 2 cables with 4 cable ends and 3 interconnection
points.

How can a bus bar possibly be better? There will always be one more cable,
and 2 more cable ends to connect.

I do not see how either way could cause the current for one battery pass
through another. It is merely using the terminal of the battery as a
connector between two cables. Ditto for any difference in how internal
resistance reacts, they both seem the same to me.

Related question #2:

It also has been noticed that some installers use "cross tie" interconnects
for paralleling batteries in the middle of the series strings where the
positive of one battery connects to the negative of the other -- not just at
the final pos. and neg. outer ends of the strings. In fact, some even
recommend two cables between:
http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cross-tied-b
attery-bank-300x187.jpg

What's up with that? If it helps make charging equal, is it worth the extra
expenses and connections involved?

Here is a little jpg that illustrates both of these questions:
ftp://ftp.re-wrenches.org/pub/bbvscablewcrossties.jpg



Tom Elliot wrote at 02:19 PM 12/2/2009:
 
>Darryl, The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching each
serial string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring series pairs
so batteries aren't passing current through each other and aren't affected
by each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then feed the inverter
breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco installations which is where
I got clued into the process.  I got some batteries from a wholesaler who
did those installations and he was aghast at the idea of series/parallel
installations the way off-grid systems have been done traditionally. 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[wind...@wind-sun.com]

Yes, I hate Vaseline - it has a melting point of around 105 deg F, so even a 
moderatly hot day will cause it to drip all over the place - except onto the 
terminals it is supposed to protect.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


Another YES for silicon. We have used it for years. A very thin coat  will 
last a long time. I have seen the gooey mess for heated vaseline  more 
than once.


Larry



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[R Ray Walters]

Basically I agree about the low melting point of Vaseline, but I see it as the 
canary in the coal mine: your batteries and connections shouldn't be getting 
that hot!
Anything over 85 degrees and the cycle life of the battery drops fast.
I switch to grease, when I think I might encounter higher temps (like on my car 
battery)

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Dec 2, 2009, at 6:07 PM, wind...@wind-sun.com wrote:

> Yes, I hate Vaseline - it has a melting point of around 105 deg F, so even a 
> moderatly hot day will cause it to drip all over the place - except onto the 
> terminals it is supposed to protect.
> 
> ..
> Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
> Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
> ..
> - Original Message - From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar" 
> 
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
> 
> 
>> Another YES for silicon. We have used it for years. A very thin coat  will 
>> last a long time. I have seen the gooey mess for heated vaseline  more than 
>> once.
>> 
>> Larry
>> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[R Ray Walters]

Problem with bussing in the Flexware, is that the bussbars only go to 1/0. 
(be great if they made an attachment like Sq D, that allowed you to bring 
bigger cables to their buss.)

Another reason to go to a battery buss instead of cross tying is on complicated 
layouts where cross tying won't get you even resistance across all strings.
If you have two rows of 5 batteries across the back of the box, and turn two 
more sideways across the front (for instance), it starts getting weird to set 
up three balanced strings.
The buss bar method makes it work without any long term performance problems. 
(and its easier for a tired wrench to figure out in the field)

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Walt Ratterman wrote:

> Michael:
> 
> The bus bar solution has to do at least partially, with:
> 
> - Equal resistance paths to each string of batteries (need to keep the
> circuit cables the same length).
> - Ability to remove (isolate) a string more easily.
> 
> 
> With two strings, if the bus bar capacity exists in the hardware of the
> inverter system (such as the bus in the flexware) simply bring back a large
> battery cable from each of the two strings to the flexware and the bus in
> the flexware becomes the bus bar.  (with a fuse in each positive)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Walt
> SunEnergy Power International

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Powered vs SMA

[Andrew Truitt]

Last I used a PVP was in 2005 and we had multiple failures.  I've never had
an SMA fail but there has been a disconcerting glitch on some units lately,
where the inverter displays a GFDI fuse error for about a 1/2 hour after
commissioning, and then kicks in.  Still the best dependabilty and fit and
finish of any of the major inverters in my humble opinion.

To me its Ford vs. BMW.  America makes some damn fine equipment but when it
comes to precision engineering and lifetime performance I would argue that
the Germans have an edge on the rest of the world right now.


Andrew Truitt
Standard Solar Inc.



On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Drake Chamberlin <
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

>  In the past I have seen a lot of issues with PVP inverters.  There was a
> period, when I was subcontracting, where a half dozen or more of the units
> had to be replaced within a short time.  Although I like many features of
> PVP, I've avoided them since.  Have others found these units to be reliable
> or problematic?
>
>
>
> At 07:30 PM 12/1/2009, you wrote:
>
> Nice thread... inverter pros/cons is something I spend a fair amount of
> time
> pondering, since they are the weak link in the grid-direct installation.
>
> Overall, I like them both (PVP and SMA).
>
> Performance: On page 44 of the Dec/Jan issue of SolarPro, there is a list
> of
> specifications for grid-direct inverters. Current PVP and SMA inverters
> have
> similar CEC weighted efficiency ratings. Some of the older PVP inverter
> models (1100, 2000, 2800, 3000) have slightly lower efficiency.
>
> Reliability: I like that the PVP inverters have no moving parts, whereas
> the
> SMA inverters use a fan to assist with the cooling. PV Powered does a lot
> of
> marketing around their reliability efforts, for whatever that's worth.
>
> Customer Service: I have not needed to utilize PV Powered customer service.
> I've found SMA customer service techs to be easy to reach and
> knowledgeable.
>
> Other issues: I like that PV Powered inverters are made in the USA. I also
> find the hardware and manuals to be easier to work with, most likely
> because
> they're produced in the USA for our market. The PVP inverters ship with a
> full-size mounting template which comes in handy, especially when planning
> the rough-in wiring and support framing during new construction.
>
> I have a preference for the PVP inverters, and use SMA occasionally if it's
> a better design fit. I agree with Wayne Irwin's comment about the
> durability
> of the inverters with the heavy transformer designs, as opposed to the
> newer
> "light-weight" designs (including the newest SMA products). I just feel
> that
> in the long run, lower counts for electronic components is a good thing.
> I'm
> not an expert on component reliability, but I know from my somewhat limited
> experience that capacitors dry up and transistors are susceptible to a
> variety of failure modes. The fewer of these things, the better. Also from
> a
> reliability standpoint, I prefer to put inverters inside in a well
> ventilated area, if possible. My gut feeling is that over the long haul,
> any
> inverter will be better off in a location that is protected from moisture
> and large ambient temperature swings.
>
> -Hans
> 
>
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [ 
> mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:04 PM
> To: RE-Wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Powered vs SMA
>
>
> Hi colleagues
>
> Do any of you have a preference, PV Powered vs SMA in the residential
> space-
> 2k-5k grid tie inverter zone?
>
> Comments on performance/reliability/customer service etc?
>
> Any feedback on their monitoring vs SMA's webbox?
>
> Thanks
>
> Keith
>
>
> ___
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>  www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>  Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
> Office - 740-448-7328
> Mobile - 740-856-9648
>
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>
>


-- 
"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it jus

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[jay peltz]

My question about the buss bar is this.

Is this something that you are fabricating or are buying and if so where and 
what?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Walt Ratterman]

Two answers, Jay,

Actually both.

For a lot of systems, we use the ILSCO or POLARIS multi-barrel insulated
mechanical compression device that holds up to 8 or more cables up to
whatever size you purchase them in.

Then, for larger systems, we use standard, 1/4 x 4" copper bus bar with
isolating bushing, drilled out to match the crimp-on lugs of 2-hole
connectors.

Both are comparable quality, and all the parts are UL listed.

Walt

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 6:24 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

My question about the buss bar is this.

Is this something that you are fabricating or are buying and if so where and
what?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Richard L Ratico]

Bob Ellison is in Northern New York. I'm in Vermont. We usually have to thaw the
Vaseline over the woodstove. Makes great hair gel too. Don't bother with the
gloves. If we mix in a little maple syrup it sticks wicked.

Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric

--- You wrote:
Yes, I hate Vaseline - it has a melting point of around 105 deg F, so even a 
moderatly hot day will cause it to drip all over the place - except onto the 
terminals it is supposed to protect.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

..
- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar" 
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


> Another YES for silicon. We have used it for years. A very thin coat  will 
> last a long time. I have seen the gooey mess for heated vaseline  more 
> than once.
>
> Larry
>
--- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Joel Davidson]

Dust and dirt get stuck to Vaseline, grease and other sticky substances. 
Some particulates contain metal that can form a conductive path from the 
battery terminal to the case. Test your "battery bucket" for leaks by 
putting one of your voltmeter lead on the terminal and the other lead on the 
case. Dirty car and truck batteries in damp weather often leak current.


Joel Davidson

- Original Message - 
From: "R Ray Walters" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


Basically I agree about the low melting point of Vaseline, but I see it as 
the canary in the coal mine: your batteries and connections shouldn't be 
getting that hot!

Anything over 85 degrees and the cycle life of the battery drops fast.
I switch to grease, when I think I might encounter higher temps (like on 
my car battery)


R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Dec 2, 2009, at 6:07 PM, wind...@wind-sun.com wrote:

Yes, I hate Vaseline - it has a melting point of around 105 deg F, so 
even a moderatly hot day will cause it to drip all over the place - 
except onto the terminals it is supposed to protect.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message - From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar" 


To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


Another YES for silicon. We have used it for years. A very thin coat 
will last a long time. I have seen the gooey mess for heated vaseline 
more than once.


Larry



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Tom Elliot]

Michael,

Here are photos of how it's done in a home situation 
http://www.wagonmaker.com/newbatt2.html


What is handy about the buss bar is the ability to use much smaller cable 
from each series pair (in this case) to the buss bar, thus less expense in 
cables than otherwise and additional expense for the smaller cables is far 
better if it produces extended battery life and ease of service than the 
alternative.  The buss bars themselves are tinned copper bars mounted on 
stand-offs.


Thanks to Jamie Surrette for confirming the wisdom of such setups.  I would 
love to see battery companies beginning to provide hardware for such systems 
and educating installers on how to use them.


Tom


--
From: "Michael Welch" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:00 PM
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries



I wish I understood this bus bar use better. Electrically, these seem to 
be the same thing. But by using the bus bar, there has to be more cables, 
cable ends, and connection points. And cost.


I just drew a battery bank (see below link to graphic), three series 
strings in parallel. On the negative side I drew a bus bar. On the 
positive side I drew normal parallel cable interconnects.


The bus bar side requires 3 cables with 6 cable ends and 6 interconnection 
points.


The cable side requires 2 cables with 4 cable ends and 3 interconnection 
points.


How can a bus bar possibly be better? There will always be one more cable, 
and 2 more cable ends to connect.


I do not see how either way could cause the current for one battery pass 
through another. It is merely using the terminal of the battery as a 
connector between two cables. Ditto for any difference in how internal 
resistance reacts, they both seem the same to me.


Related question #2:

It also has been noticed that some installers use "cross tie" 
interconnects for paralleling batteries in the middle of the series 
strings where the positive of one battery connects to the negative of the 
other -- not just at the final pos. and neg. outer ends of the strings. In 
fact, some even recommend two cables between:

http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cross-tied-battery-bank-300x187.jpg

What's up with that? If it helps make charging equal, is it worth the 
extra expenses and connections involved?


Here is a little jpg that illustrates both of these questions:
ftp://ftp.re-wrenches.org/pub/bbvscablewcrossties.jpg



Tom Elliot wrote at 02:19 PM 12/2/2009:

Darryl, The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching each 
serial string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring series 
pairs so batteries aren't passing current through each other and aren't 
affected by each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then feed the 
inverter breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco installations 
which is where I got clued into the process.  I got some batteries from a 
wholesaler who did those installations and he was aghast at the idea of 
series/parallel installations the way off-grid systems have been done 
traditionally.



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No virus found in this incoming message.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Michael Welch]

Thanks, Tom. I think I have seen those photos before.

Am I seeing 16 cables hooked up to each bus bar? Are you using 2 cables for 
each end of each string? Is that 8 series strings?

I can certainly see the advantage of being able to easily remove a string from 
the system.

But I still do not see how it will treat the individual batteries much better 
than using large parallel cable interconnects, which might be cheaper if the 
runs are not too long.


Tom Elliot wrote at 06:45 PM 12/2/2009:
 
>Michael,
>
>Here are photos of how it's done in a home situation 
>http://www.wagonmaker.com/newbatt2.html
>
>What is handy about the buss bar is the ability to use much smaller cable from 
>each series pair (in this case) to the buss bar, thus less expense in cables 
>than otherwise and additional expense for the smaller cables is far better if 
>it produces extended battery life and ease of service than the alternative.  
>The buss bars themselves are tinned copper bars mounted on stand-offs.
>
>Thanks to Jamie Surrette for confirming the wisdom of such setups.  I would 
>love to see battery companies beginning to provide hardware for such systems 
>and educating installers on how to use them.
>
>Tom
>
>
>--
>From: "Michael Welch" 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:00 PM
>To: "RE-wrenches" 
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries
>
>>
>>I wish I understood this bus bar use better. Electrically, these seem to be 
>>the same thing. But by using the bus bar, there has to be more cables, cable 
>>ends, and connection points. And cost.
>>
>>I just drew a battery bank (see below link to graphic), three series strings 
>>in parallel. On the negative side I drew a bus bar. On the positive side I 
>>drew normal parallel cable interconnects.
>>
>>The bus bar side requires 3 cables with 6 cable ends and 6 interconnection 
>>points.
>>
>>The cable side requires 2 cables with 4 cable ends and 3 interconnection 
>>points.
>>
>>How can a bus bar possibly be better? There will always be one more cable, 
>>and 2 more cable ends to connect.
>>
>>I do not see how either way could cause the current for one battery pass 
>>through another. It is merely using the terminal of the battery as a 
>>connector between two cables. Ditto for any difference in how internal 
>>resistance reacts, they both seem the same to me.
>>
>>Related question #2:
>>
>>It also has been noticed that some installers use "cross tie" interconnects 
>>for paralleling batteries in the middle of the series strings where the 
>>positive of one battery connects to the negative of the other -- not just at 
>>the final pos. and neg. outer ends of the strings. In fact, some even 
>>recommend two cables between:
>>http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cross-tied-battery-bank-300x187.jpg
>>
>>What's up with that? If it helps make charging equal, is it worth the extra 
>>expenses and connections involved?
>>
>>Here is a little jpg that illustrates both of these questions:
>>ftp://ftp.re-wrenches.org/pub/bbvscablewcrossties.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>Tom Elliot wrote at 02:19 PM 12/2/2009:
>>
>>>Darryl, The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching each 
>>>serial string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring series pairs 
>>>so batteries aren't passing current through each other and aren't affected 
>>>by each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then feed the inverter 
>>>breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco installations which is where 
>>>I got clued into the process.  I got some batteries from a wholesaler who 
>>>did those installations and he was aghast at the idea of series/parallel 
>>>installations the way off-grid systems have been done traditionally.
>>
>>
>>___
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>>Options & settings:
>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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>>www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/01/09 
>>21:33:00
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[wind...@wind-sun.com]

When a system is installed in the Arizona desert, unless you put in an air 
conditioner, you have little choice over the temperature.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message - 
From: "R Ray Walters" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


Basically I agree about the low melting point of Vaseline, but I see it as 
the canary in the coal mine: your batteries and connections shouldn't be 
getting that hot!

Anything over 85 degrees and the cycle life of the battery drops fast.
I switch to grease, when I think I might encounter higher temps (like on 
my car battery)


R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Dec 2, 2009, at 6:07 PM, wind...@wind-sun.com wrote:

Yes, I hate Vaseline - it has a melting point of around 105 deg F, so 
even a moderatly hot day will cause it to drip all over the place - 
except onto the terminals it is supposed to protect.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message - From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar" 


To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


Another YES for silicon. We have used it for years. A very thin coat 
will last a long time. I have seen the gooey mess for heated vaseline 
more than once.


Larry



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries

[Tom Elliot]

Michael,

There are 12  1/0 cables running from the batteries for each side of the 
buss, pos and neg plus the two 4/0 cables.  There are 12 series strings in 
that 24v system wXH consisting of two 12 volt 100-amphour DCS-100L Dynasty 
deep cycle AGM batteries.  That system has so far been in place for 6 years 
and is rock solid.  We've since sold the house but my last two annual 
checkups (which I don't do anymore) showed nothing great than a 1/10 volt 
difference between the individual 12-volt batteries throughout the bank. 
I've replaced one cable which is incredibly easy (as easy as working with 
batteries ever gets anyway) and required no shutting down of the system.


It's been a while since I had the engineering discussion with the Dynasty 
engineer who spec'ed these batteries for me and reiterated what I'd already 
been told about using buss bars by the wholesaler I used to deal with.  I 
suspect Jamie can give a better technical explanation but I do recall he 
said that while the virtual circuit looks the same in a diagram the behavior 
of the system is different using the buss.


Tom

--
From: "Michael Welch" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:05 PM
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries


Thanks, Tom. I think I have seen those photos before.

Am I seeing 16 cables hooked up to each bus bar? Are you using 2 cables 
for each end of each string? Is that 8 series strings?


I can certainly see the advantage of being able to easily remove a string 
from the system.


But I still do not see how it will treat the individual batteries much 
better than using large parallel cable interconnects, which might be 
cheaper if the runs are not too long.



Tom Elliot wrote at 06:45 PM 12/2/2009:


Michael,

Here are photos of how it's done in a home situation 
http://www.wagonmaker.com/newbatt2.html


What is handy about the buss bar is the ability to use much smaller cable 
from each series pair (in this case) to the buss bar, thus less expense in 
cables than otherwise and additional expense for the smaller cables is far 
better if it produces extended battery life and ease of service than the 
alternative.  The buss bars themselves are tinned copper bars mounted on 
stand-offs.


Thanks to Jamie Surrette for confirming the wisdom of such setups.  I 
would love to see battery companies beginning to provide hardware for such 
systems and educating installers on how to use them.


Tom


--
From: "Michael Welch" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:00 PM
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strings and series of batteries



I wish I understood this bus bar use better. Electrically, these seem to 
be the same thing. But by using the bus bar, there has to be more cables, 
cable ends, and connection points. And cost.


I just drew a battery bank (see below link to graphic), three series 
strings in parallel. On the negative side I drew a bus bar. On the 
positive side I drew normal parallel cable interconnects.


The bus bar side requires 3 cables with 6 cable ends and 6 
interconnection points.


The cable side requires 2 cables with 4 cable ends and 3 interconnection 
points.


How can a bus bar possibly be better? There will always be one more 
cable, and 2 more cable ends to connect.


I do not see how either way could cause the current for one battery pass 
through another. It is merely using the terminal of the battery as a 
connector between two cables. Ditto for any difference in how internal 
resistance reacts, they both seem the same to me.


Related question #2:

It also has been noticed that some installers use "cross tie" 
interconnects for paralleling batteries in the middle of the series 
strings where the positive of one battery connects to the negative of the 
other -- not just at the final pos. and neg. outer ends of the strings. 
In fact, some even recommend two cables between:

http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cross-tied-battery-bank-300x187.jpg

What's up with that? If it helps make charging equal, is it worth the 
extra expenses and connections involved?


Here is a little jpg that illustrates both of these questions:
ftp://ftp.re-wrenches.org/pub/bbvscablewcrossties.jpg



Tom Elliot wrote at 02:19 PM 12/2/2009:

Darryl, The process of paralleling through buss bars means attaching 
each serial string to a pair of buss bars rather than to neighboring 
series pairs so batteries aren't passing current through each other and 
aren't affected by each others internal resistance.  The buss bars then 
feed the inverter breaker.  It's standard practice in large telco 
installations which is where I got clued into the process.  I got some 
batteries from a wholesaler who did those installations and he was 
aghast at the idea of series/parallel installations the way off-grid 
systems have been done traditionally.

[RE-wrenches] PV Powered vs SMA

[Nick Vida]

Yes I know the failures you were mentioning in 05-06.

I had one that had 2 blown 20a ac midget fuses inside the cover. i was told by 
the service of their partner company at that time to replace the fuses- it 
might have been a grid surge that took out the fuses.

i did so later that day and the inverter started and counted down. I heard the 
click, a very short interval of their very annoying operating tone, and then 
BOOM lika an M80 firecracker was inside the inverter.

I was so thankful that I had decided to put the cover back on the unit in the 
time while I was waiting for the countdown.

truly humbling like only electricians can understand.



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