Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[Bill Loesch]

Todd & Peter,

The _benefits_ of tankless water heating include:

endless hot water
no standby loss
smaller unit, wall hung (no floorspace requirement)
repairable unit - you don't have to trash it every seven years (reported
national average)

The _disadvantages_ of tankless water heating include:

flow limited heater (proper sizing is critical if hot water needs are to be
met during wintertime (high delta T) conditions)
reduced hot water pressure (resulting from the additional piping of the heat
exchanger)
"cold water sandwich" on units missing a pilot light
no trickle of hot water
routine maintenance in hard water quality areas (no different than a tank
except you don't have to replace, you can maintain)

IMHO there needs to be a very, very good reason to keep the existing tank
when adding a larger than conventional solar tank. You are definitely not
saving space or minimizing standby losses with dual tanks.

If you are asking why use the tankless _instead of_ the solar tank, you may 
want to refer to Tom Lane's ever expanding "Solar Hot Water 
Systems..."Lessons Learned ..." (now available with an Instructor edition 
and in color)

for a further discussion of system configurations.

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Parrish" 

To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW



You’re right, Todd, there is often a space limitation. But overall, the
tankless approach is more economical, eliminating the need to keep 80 odd
gallons of water perpetually up to temperature. Remember the solar heated
water is "make up water" and can contribute to the temperature of the
traditional water heater only while hot water is being used. So, my guess
is that 1/2 of the day in a residence the traditional tank is keeping
water up to temperature for no apparent use.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

I know this was not the question, but this whole thread is predicated on
the use of a demand hot water heater. Unless there is a space limitation,
why would this be done over a traditional tank unit?

Todd



Bill Loesch wrote:

Kris,

Boiler manufacturers today get starry-eyed when their machines are able to
provide a 10:1 turndown ratio. Even the venerable natural draft Bosch
125BS * provided a better than 4:1 turndown ratio and all the condensing
powervent units compared below regularly offer 10:1 and some better than
20:1. With each benefit comes a disadvantage, like with current production
cars, serious repair/maintenance takes place primarily at the dealer since
they are usually the only ones to pony up for the multitude of specialized
test equipment. I find it a bit of backward progress to have to tell
someone that the reason they don't have reliable hot water is because they
don't have the current software update (due in no small part to the
marketing gurus who have no qualms about using the customer as the proving
grounds for their product). Many plumbers have no clue to the workings of
a combustion analyzer, a necessary tool for  negative pressure gas valve
tuning and replacement (and a multitude of other tasks where the blue
flame is no longer sufficient to be able to deliver optimum performance).

Your Takagi needs AC power to (in order of decreasing current requirements
for a generic power vented tankless)
  power the freeze protection heating elements
  run the primary combustion fan
  run the secondary combustion fan
  provide control to
  gas valve
  water valve
  control board (oftentimes with digital display) which provides the
logic and timing circuits for the multitude of sensors and limit switches
and remote controls and wireless remote controls etc., etc.

Long live the thermocouple.

My compliments on your simplistic approach to coordinate the solar storage
tank and tankless. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar



PS I reiterate, despite other RE-Wrenches list comments to the contrary
about
"modulate to
zero", NONE of ANY of the Big Five tankless manufacturers that market to
North America have a low fire rate which modulates to zero or anything
near
it for the very same reason that you will never get a trickle of hot water
out of any tankless water heater. (~0.5 gpm minimum activation flow
requirement)

Comparing condensing heaters with ~200,000 max BTU/h input
Bosch GWH C 800 ES 19,900 BTU/h
Noritz NRC 111   11,000
Paloma   no co

Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW3

[Bill Loesch]

Allan,

Everything you say is spot on. Scale is the _mortal_ enemy of all tankless 
water heaters. Hopefully you change the air cleaner on your vehicles more often 
in the dusty desert climate than you would in a less dusty climate. Same 
principle. You accept the need to change out the tank when if fills with scale, 
the tankless offers you the option to maintain rather than replace. If the 
water quality is that bad, your clothes washer and dishwasher and every hot 
water valve are also suffering the effects of scale and providing you with 
reduced appliance and fixture life. 

If the maintenance chore is an issue, have you considered a water 
softener/water conditioner/etc. If the cost is an issue, descaling a tankless 
is only slightly more involved than circulating the descaling fluid in the 
coffee machine.

I like to look at the places in the world where others pay a premium for fuel 
and take their lead in energy related matters. Tankless is a clear winner using 
this criteria.

Respectfully,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar

  - Original Message - 
  From: Allan Sindelar 
  To: Dan Fink ; RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW3


  In the desert Southwest we tend to use wells for water supply, and our water 
is often quite hard. While we don't do plumbing or DHW, we are often asked to 
advise on other aspects of home systems. We advise generally against tankless 
heaters because of our groundwater. The minerals leach out when the water is 
heated - like the film that slowly forms inside a teapot and is cleaned out 
with vinegar. Tankless heaters rely on small passages for maximum surface area 
to heat water quickly. The passages slowly clog with mineral buildup. So they 
end up costing enough in cleaning, maintenance and repair costs to negate any 
advantage due to their higher thermal efficiency.

  Bottom line - their value depends on the characteristics of the water you run 
through them.


  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
  EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com


  On 9/16/2010 9:00 PM, Dan Fink wrote: 
I work exclusively with smaller off-grid systems in remote areas. So 
on-demand heaters are the only thing I deal withmany of these systems are 
not occupied for lengths of time (fishing and hunting tourist lodges, summer 
cabins, etc.). A tank heater doesn't make sense in these applications, 
especially if run only on propane (no solar DHW). 

Almost all my troubleshooting calls have been from clients self-installing 
new fixtures that don't allow enough flow for the heater to turn onor 
clogged pump intakes (from using river water and rainwater) doing the same. A 
leaky pressure pump (it froze up a bit last winter, but she's still a-workin', 
but the heater don't, what's wrong?)  will do the same too--hot water until the 
pressure tank runs out, and not enough pump to keep up because of the leaks. 

Anyway, there are facets of on-demand that are PITA. But it's the way of 
the backwoods, unless there is also solar DHWthen a tank works. 

DAN FINK 
Buckville Energy Consulting 


Darryl Thayer wrote: 
> Hi all 
> I have done several On Demand Heaters with SDHW, typically the SDHW 
provides 100% all summer (7-8 months) and then falls short in the winter.  I 
have never done a On Demand Heater that has made the customer happy.  They all 
have complained about 'chase the temperature' because there is a range in which 
the heater will want to fire or not fire, and at some time they will be in that 
temperature range.  then the unit will fire and not fire and the temperature 
changes at the fixture.  They complain.  I get complaints even when the On 
Demand Heater is installed by others.  I tell customers, that the system will 
work with the standard design, but if they want to install a On Demand, I am 
out of the loop. Darry; 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[Kristopher Schmid]

It all depends on whether you are talking financial payback or wise energy
use.  The people who use the least amount of hot water are the people who
will experience the greatest energy use savings.  They are a great option
for weekend cabins since you don't have to remember to turn off the water
heater when you leave and you don't have to wait for the tank to heat up
when you return.

Kris

Legacy Solar
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
715-653-4295
sol...@legacysolar.com
www.legacysolar.com
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW


The payback on a demand heater in energy savings is like 50+ years. A
traditional tank heater, super insulated has very little loss.

Todd



Peter Parrish wrote:
You’re right, Todd, there is often a space limitation. But overall, the
tankless approach is more economical, eliminating the need to keep 80 odd
gallons of water perpetually up to temperature. Remember the solar heated
water is "make up water" and can contribute to the temperature of the
traditional water heater only while hot water is being used. So, my guess is
that 1/2 of the day in a residence the traditional tank is keeping water up
to temperature for no apparent use.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

I know this was not the question, but this whole thread is predicated on the
use of a demand hot water heater. Unless there is a space limitation, why
would this be done over a traditional tank unit?

Todd



Bill Loesch wrote:

Kris,

Boiler manufacturers today get starry-eyed when their machines are able to
provide a 10:1 turndown ratio. Even the venerable natural draft Bosch 125BS
* provided a better than 4:1 turndown ratio and all the condensing powervent
units compared below regularly offer 10:1 and some better than 20:1. With
each benefit comes a disadvantage, like with current production cars,
serious repair/maintenance takes place primarily at the dealer since they
are usually the only ones to pony up for the multitude of specialized test
equipment. I find it a bit of backward progress to have to tell someone that
the reason they don't have reliable hot water is because they don't have the
current software update (due in no small part to the marketing gurus who
have no qualms about using the customer as the proving grounds for their
product). Many plumbers have no clue to the workings of a combustion
analyzer, a necessary tool for  negative pressure gas valve tuning and
replacement (and a multitude
 of other tasks where the blue flame is no longer sufficient to be able to
deliver optimum performance).

Your Takagi needs AC power to (in order of decreasing current requirements
for a generic power vented tankless)
   power the freeze protection heating elements
   run the primary combustion fan
   run the secondary combustion fan
   provide control to
   gas valve
   water valve
   control board (oftentimes with digital display) which provides the
logic and timing circuits for the multitude of sensors and limit switches
and remote controls and wireless remote controls etc., etc.

Long live the thermocouple.

My compliments on your simplistic approach to coordinate the solar storage
tank and tankless. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar



PS I reiterate, despite other RE-Wrenches list comments to the contrary
about
"modulate to
zero", NONE of ANY of the Big Five tankless manufacturers that market to
North America have a low fire rate which modulates to zero or anything near
it for the very same reason that you will never get a trickle of hot water
out of any tankless water heater. (~0.5 gpm minimum activation flow
requirement)

Comparing condensing heaters with ~200,000 max BTU/h input
Bosch GWH C 800 ES 19,900 BTU/h
Noritz NRC 111   11,000
Paloma   no condensing heaters
Rinnai RC98HPe 9,500
Takagi T-H2 13,000

Thanks for your patience, I hope it was not too technical.

- Original Message - From: "Peter Parrish"

To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:37 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW



We have a SDHW client that wants to replace his old water heater with
a new tankless water heater. We do a SDHW system about once a year,
and only for clients that

Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[Wayne Irwin]

In our off grid home I installed a Rinnai propane tank less to support
the double pump drain-back system and have had no problems. 
The tips that I suggest are: that the tank less be flushed out regularly, 
even when not being used in-order to reduce any sediment. 
If the water is hard, add a softener or at least a micro filter. 
Scale build up can also be a problem. 
If this tank less unit is being used as a back up, turn it off unless needed.
The unit will turn off automatically once input water temp reaches its 
programed output temp.
However, the initial water flow is cold enough to trigger the unit to fire-up, 
wasting 
100,000 btu's of fuel for a minute or so.


Wayne Irwin
Director of Engineering

Pure Energy Solar International Inc. 
State Licensed Solar Contractor

License # CVC56695 

wa...@pureenergysolar.com
 

http://pureenergysolar.com
 

352 377-6527 Office
352 336-3299 
Fax

The
content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are 
not the intended
recipient and have received this message in error, any use or 
distribution is
prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this
message from your computer system. Thank you.



> From: sol...@legacysolar.com
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:01:30 -0500
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW
> 
> It all depends on whether you are talking financial payback or wise energy
> use.  The people who use the least amount of hot water are the people who
> will experience the greatest energy use savings.  They are a great option
> for weekend cabins since you don't have to remember to turn off the water
> heater when you leave and you don't have to wait for the tank to heat up
> when you return.
> 
> Kris
> 
> Legacy Solar
> 864 Clam Falls Trail
> Frederic, WI 54837
> 715-653-4295
> sol...@legacysolar.com
> www.legacysolar.com
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:55 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW
> 
> 
> The payback on a demand heater in energy savings is like 50+ years. A
> traditional tank heater, super insulated has very little loss.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Parrish wrote:
> You’re right, Todd, there is often a space limitation. But overall, the
> tankless approach is more economical, eliminating the need to keep 80 odd
> gallons of water perpetually up to temperature. Remember the solar heated
> water is "make up water" and can contribute to the temperature of the
> traditional water heater only while hot water is being used. So, my guess is
> that 1/2 of the day in a residence the traditional tank is keeping water up
> to temperature for no apparent use.
> 
> - Peter
> 
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
> 
> 
> 
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:17 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW
> 
> I know this was not the question, but this whole thread is predicated on the
> use of a demand hot water heater. Unless there is a space limitation, why
> would this be done over a traditional tank unit?
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Loesch wrote:
> 
> Kris,
> 
> Boiler manufacturers today get starry-eyed when their machines are able to
> provide a 10:1 turndown ratio. Even the venerable natural draft Bosch 125BS
> * provided a better than 4:1 turndown ratio and all the condensing powervent
> units compared below regularly offer 10:1 and some better than 20:1. With
> each benefit comes a disadvantage, like with current production cars,
> serious repair/maintenance takes place primarily at the dealer since they
> are usually the only ones to pony up for the multitude of specialized test
> equipment. I find it a bit of backward progress to have to tell someone that
> the reason they don't have reliable hot water is because they don't have the
> current software update (due in no small part to the marketing gurus who
> have no qualms about using the customer as the proving grounds for their
> product). Many plumbers have no clue to the workings of a combustion
> analyzer, a necessary tool for  negative pressure gas valve tuning and
> replacement (and a multitude
>  of other tasks where the blue flame is no longer sufficient to be able to
> deliver optimum performance).
> 
> Your Takagi needs AC power to (in order of decreasing current requirements
> for a generic power vented tankless)
>power the freeze protection heating elements
>run the primary combustion

[RE-wrenches] Energy Tax Credits

[Larry Crutcher]

Is there a tax credit like the personal credit for your home? Form  
5695 part 1 says the 30% tax credit is for the main home. A customer  
has a second home that is leased out. He had a PV solar system  
installed at that home in 2010. Is there a 30% tax credit for the  
system installed at the leased home?


Thanks,
Larry


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[RE-wrenches] PV Module Match Question

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Fellow Wrenches,
Three years ago a local homeowner installed a small off-grid system
using modern hardware preassembled by a good local company. The
array consists of four Solarworld SW165s on a pole-top rack, wired
as two 48V strings feeding an MX60 controller and a 24V battery
bank. The property was sold and the new owners are not able to live
within the capacity of this small array. They have asked me to quote
an array upgrade.

As modules get larger, I find it gets harder to match old arrays to
new. The SW165 is a 72-cell module with output at MPP of 4.68A at
35.3 Vdc, or 70.6 Vmp for each string. I can get some SW175s, even
though they are more-or-less discontinued by the manufacturer in
favor of the 60-cell 235s. The SW175s are rated at 4.89A at 35.8
Vdc, or one volt higher for each two-module string.

The maximum power point difference between the existing and new
modules is one volt (or maybe a bit more due to light-induced
degradation and the three-year age difference). In this case, the
difference is pretty small, but I'm using this situation to ask a
bigger question, as I'm interested in what other Wrenches have
learned. An MPPT charge controller (and even more so with the MPP
tracking in a string inverter in a grid-tied system) will latch to
the voltage at which the input current is greatest. In this case, if
I add four 175s to the four existing 165s, both voltage and current
will be defined by the new array. Module I/V curves drop off current
output quickly when the MPP voltage is exceeded. Will the smaller
array be forced to operate above its max power voltage (I think
yes)? Will the output of the smaller array be reduced noticeably by
being operated off the knee of the curve? 

OK, this isn't the best example, as the difference is one volt, or
about 1 1/2%. But what if the original array had used SW155s (34.8
Vmp, or two volts difference)? I'm often asked to add new modules to
an older existing array, so this question comes up, and I could use
others' experience as guidance about when to pay close attention to
these differences and when to let them go.

This was never an issue before MPPT charge controllers, and it never
was an issue with new systems with matching modules. But as we
regularly upgrade existing systems, and as modules quickly come and
go and specs change, these mix-n-match issues could limit our module
choices if we're seeking maximum performance. Thanks in advance for
advice.
-- 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Allan Sindelar
Allan@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
  

  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[Kristopher Schmid]

Wayne,

Your statement that "The unit will turn off automatically once input water
temp reaches its programed output temp." seems to contradict the statement
from Bill saying "All tankless, including solar compatible (heaters which
modulate fire rate based on _inlet temperature_) have a minimum fire rate
which is well above zero."

Am i missing something?

Kris


Legacy Solar
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
715-653-4295
sol...@legacysolar.com
www.legacysolar.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Irwin
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:40 AM
To: Wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW


In our off grid home I installed a Rinnai propane tank less to support
the double pump drain-back system and have had no problems.
The tips that I suggest are: that the tank less be flushed out regularly,
even when not being used in-order to reduce any sediment.
If the water is hard, add a softener or at least a micro filter.
Scale build up can also be a problem.
If this tank less unit is being used as a back up, turn it off unless
needed.
The unit will turn off automatically once input water temp reaches its
programed output temp.
However, the initial water flow is cold enough to trigger the unit to
fire-up, wasting
100,000 btu's of fuel for a minute or so.


Wayne Irwin
Director of Engineering
Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
State Licensed Solar Contractor
License # CVC56695
wa...@pureenergysolar.com 
http://pureenergysolar.com 
352 377-6527 Office
352 336-3299 Fax



The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are
not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use
or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail
and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.





> From: sol...@legacysolar.com
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:01:30 -0500
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW
>
> It all depends on whether you are talking financial payback or wise energy
> use. The people who use the least amount of hot water are the people who
> will experience the greatest energy use savings. They are a great option
> for weekend cabins since you don't have to remember to turn off the water
> heater when you leave and you don't have to wait for the tank to heat up
> when you return.
>
> Kris
>
> Legacy Solar
> 864 Clam Falls Trail
> Frederic, WI 54837
> 715-653-4295
> sol...@legacysolar.com
> www.legacysolar.com
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org< br>>
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:55 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW
>
>
> The payback on a demand heater in energy savings is like 50+ years. A
> traditional tank heater, super insulated has very little loss.
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> Peter Parrish wrote:
> You’re right, Todd, there is often a space limitation. But overall, the
> tankless approach is more economical, eliminating the need to keep 80 odd
> gallons of water perpetually up to temperature. Remember the solar heated
> water is "make up water" and can contribute to the temperature of the
> traditional water heater only while hot water is being used. So, my guess
is
> that 1/2 of the day in a residence the traditional tank is keeping water
up
> to temperature for no apparent use.
>
> - Peter
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>
>
> 
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:17 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW
>
> I know this was not the question, but this whole thread is predicated on
the
> use of a demand hot water heater. Unless there is a space limitation, why
> would this be done over a traditional tank unit?
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> Bill Loesch wrote:
&g t;
> Kris,
>
> Boiler manufacturers today get starry-eyed when their machines are able to
> provide a 10:1 turndown ratio. Even the venerable natural draft Bosch
125BS
> * provided a better than 4:1 turndown ratio and all the condensing
powervent
> units compared below regularly offer 10:1 and some better than 20:1. With
> each benefit comes a disadvantage, like with current production cars,
> serious repair/maintenance takes place primarily at the dealer since they
> are usually the only ones to pony up for the multitude of specialized test
> equipment. I find i

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Module Match Question

[R Ray Walters]

HI Allan;

I found the 175s play very well when mixed with the 165s on an MX 60. We've 
done it several times. 
What's interesting is that the Solarworlds often outperform their nameplate 
rating, I've seen the 165s close to the 175 numbers.
Essentially they're all the same module, just flash tests got them sorted into 
different categories. 
The voltage difference is slight enough to be totally inconsequential in the 
real world.
I wouldn't worry about mixing them at all. The customer will be satisfied with 
the overall performance, guaranteed.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Sep 17, 2010, at 10:04 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

> Fellow Wrenches,
> Three years ago a local homeowner installed a small off-grid system using 
> modern hardware preassembled by a good local company. The array consists of 
> four Solarworld SW165s on a pole-top rack, wired as two 48V strings 
> feeding an MX60 controller and a 24V battery bank. The property was sold and 
> the new owners are not able to live within the capacity of this small array. 
> They have asked me to quote an array upgrade.
> 
> As modules get larger, I find it gets harder to match old arrays to new. The 
> SW165 is a 72-cell module with output at MPP of 4.68A at 35.3 Vdc, or 70.6 
> Vmp for each string. I can get some SW175s, even though they are more-or-less 
> discontinued by the manufacturer in favor of the 60-cell 235s. The SW175s are 
> rated at 4.89A at 35.8 Vdc, or one volt higher for each two-module string.
> 
> The maximum power point difference between the existing and new modules is 
> one volt (or maybe a bit more due to light-induced degradation and the 
> three-year age difference). In this case, the difference is pretty small, but 
> I'm using this situation to ask a bigger question, as I'm interested in what 
> other Wrenches have learned. An MPPT charge controller (and even more so with 
> the MPP tracking in a string inverter in a grid-tied system) will latch to 
> the voltage at which the input current is greatest. In this case, if I add 
> four 175s to the four existing 165s, both voltage and current will be defined 
> by the new array. Module I/V curves drop off current output quickly when the 
> MPP voltage is exceeded. Will the smaller array be forced to operate above 
> its max power voltage (I think yes)? Will the output of the smaller array be 
> reduced noticeably by being operated off the knee of the curve? 
> 
> OK, this isn't the best example, as the difference is one volt, or about 1 
> 1/2%. But what if the original array had used SW155s (34.8 Vmp, or two volts 
> difference)? I'm often asked to add new modules to an older existing array, 
> so this question comes up, and I could use others' experience as guidance 
> about when to pay close attention to these differences and when to let them 
> go.
> 
> This was never an issue before MPPT charge controllers, and it never was an 
> issue with new systems with matching modules. But as we regularly upgrade 
> existing systems, and as modules quickly come and go and specs change, these 
> mix-n-match issues could limit our module choices if we're seeking maximum 
> performance. Thanks in advance for advice.
> -- 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 424-1112
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[toddcory]

"repairable unit - you don't have to trash it every seven years (reported
national average)"

My tank is 20 years old now. I change the anode every 3 years.

Todd





Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Tax Credits

[toddcory]

I recently read on the DSIRE web page that the 30% credit need not be the 
primary residence.

Todd

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=US37F&re=1&ee=1





Federal
 Incentives/Policies for Renewables & 
Efficiency[http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=US37F&re=1&ee=1&printable=1]
   
Residential Renewable Energy Tax Credit
Last DSIRE Review: 02/18/2010
Program Overview:   

State:  Federal 
Incentive Type: Personal Tax Credit
Eligible Renewable/Other Technologies:Solar Water Heat, Photovoltaics, Wind, 
Fuel Cells, Geothermal Heat Pumps, Other Solar Electric Technologies
Applicable Sectors:Residential  
Amount:30%  
Maximum Incentive:Solar-electric systems placed in service before 1/1/2009: 
$2,000
Solar-electric systems placed in service after 12/31/2008: no maximum
Solar water heaters placed in service before 1/1/2009: $2,000
Solar water heaters placed in service after 12/31/2008: no maximum
Wind turbines placed in service in 2008: $4,000
Wind turbines placed in service after 12/31/2008: no maximum
 Geothermal heat pumps placed in service in 2008: $2,000
Geothermal heat pumps placed in service after 12/31/2008: no maximum
Fuel cells: $500 per 0.5 kW

Eligible System Size:Fuel cells: 0.5 kW minimum

Equipment Requirements:Solar water heating property must be certified by SRCC 
or by comparable entity endorsed by the state in which the system is installed. 
At least half the energy used to heat the dwelling's water must be from solar. 
Geothermal heat pumps must meet federal Energy Star requirements. Fuel cells 
must have electricity-only generation efficiency greater than 30%.  
  
Carryover Provisions:Excess credit may be carried forward to succeeding tax 
year 
Program Start Date:1/1/2006
Program Expiration Date:12/31/2016  
Web Site:   [http://www.energystar.gov/taxcredits]  
   
http://www.energystar.gov/taxcredits 
 


Authority 1: 

[http://www.dsireusa.org/documents/Incentives/US37Fa.htm] 26 USC § 25D  


Date Enacted:
8/8/2005 (subsequently amended) 

Date Effective:
1/1/2006

Expiration Date
12/31/2016  
 


Authority 2: 

[http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5695.pdf] IRS Form 5695 & Instructions:  
Residential Energy Credits  

 
Summary:Note: The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 does not allow 
taxpayers eligible for the residential renewable energy tax credit to receive a 
U.S. Treasury Department 
[http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=US53F&State=federal%C2%A4tpageid=1&ee=1&re=1]
 grant instead of taking this credit. 
 
Established by the federal Energy Policy Act of 2005, the federal tax credit 
for residential energy property initially applied to solar-electric systems, 
solar water heating systems and fuel cells.  
[http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1424.enr:] The Energy 
Improvement and Extension Act of 2008 (H.R. 1424) extended the tax credit to 
small wind-energy systems and geothermal heat pumps, effective January 1, 2008. 
 Other key revisions included an eight-year extension of the credit to December 
31, 2016, the ability to take the credit against the alternative minimum tax, 
and the removal of the $2,000 credit limit for solar-electric systems beginning 
in 2009.  The credit was further enhanced in February 2009 by 
[http://thomas.loc.gov/home/h1/Recovery_Bill_Div_B.pdf] The American Recovery 
and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (H.R. 1: Div. B, Sec. 1122, p. 46), which removed 
the maximum credit amount for all eligible technologies (except fuel cells) 
placed in service after 2008.

A taxpayer may claim a credit of 30% of qualified expenditures for a system 
that serves a dwelling unit located in the United States and used as a 
residence by the taxpayer.  Expenditures with respect to the equipment are 
treated as made when the installation is completed.  If the installation is on 
a new home, the "placed in se

Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Tax Credits

[Larry Crutcher]

What I meant to say, is there a business tax credit like the personal  
credit. Sorry.


Larry

On Sep 17, 2010, at 9:39 AM, Larry Crutcher wrote:

Is there a tax credit like the personal credit for your home? Form  
5695 part 1 says the 30% tax credit is for the main home. A customer  
has a second home that is leased out. He had a PV solar system  
installed at that home in 2010. Is there a 30% tax credit for the  
system installed at the leased home?


Thanks,
Larry


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Tax Credits

[Michael Welch]

Just a reminder that incentives questions are probably better answered on the 
RE-Markets list.

While such questions are not strictly against the rules here (as long as they 
are not state- or region-specific) there are incentives experts on that list 
that do not qualify for the RE-Wrench list. 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[Wayne Irwin]

Yes , that is my experience with Rinnai, I'm not at all familiar with other 
brands. 

Technically speaking, I'm not sure where the temp sensor is (I imagine you can 
get a diagram from the manuf.),
but once the pre-heated water reaches the tank less the tank less shuts off.
Which may result in hot water hitting the tap a little sooner,
but to me the time difference isn't worth burning the fuel.

FYI- It seems that as the water arrives from the solar system and temp 
increases,
the flame in the tank less regulates down until it just shuts off.

Wayne 



From: sol...@legacysolar.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:12:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW






Message body





Wayne,
 
Your 
statement that "The unit will turn off automatically once 
input water temp reaches its programed output temp." seems to contradict the 
statement from Bill saying "All tankless, including solar 
compatible (heaters which modulate fire rate based on _inlet temperature_) have 
a minimum fire rate which is well above zero."
 
Am i missing 
something?
 
Kris
 
Legacy Solar
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 
54837
715-653-4295
sol...@legacysolar.com
www.legacysolar.com 

  
  -Original Message-
From: 
  re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
  [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne 
  Irwin
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:40 AM
To: 
  Wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for 
  SDHW

In our off grid home I installed a Rinnai 
  propane tank less to support
the double pump drain-back system and have had 
  no problems. 
The tips that I suggest are: that the tank less be flushed 
  out regularly, 
even when not being used in-order to reduce any sediment. 
  
If the water is hard, add a softener or at least a micro filter. 
Scale 
  build up can also be a problem. 
If this tank less unit is being used as a 
  back up, turn it off unless needed.
The unit will turn off automatically 
  once input water temp reaches its programed output temp.
However, the 
  initial water flow is cold enough to trigger the unit to fire-up, wasting 
  
100,000 btu's of fuel for a minute or so.


Wayne Irwin
Director of 
  Engineering
Pure Energy Solar International Inc. 
  
State Licensed Solar Contractor
License # CVC56695 
wa...@pureenergysolar.com 
http://pureenergysolar.com 
352 
  377-6527 Office
352 
  336-3299 Fax


  The content of this 
  message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended 
  recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is 
  prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this 
  message from your computer system. Thank 
  you.



> From: 
  sol...@legacysolar.com
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
  Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:01:30 -0500
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On 
  Demand Heaters for SDHW
> 
> It all depends on whether you are 
  talking financial payback or wise energy
> use. The people who use the 
  least amount of hot water are the people who
> will experience the 
  greatest energy use savings. They are a great option
> for weekend 
  cabins since you don't have to remember to turn off the water
> heater 
  when you leave and you don't have to wait for the tank to heat up
> when 
  you return.
> 
> Kris
> 
> Legacy Solar
> 864 
  Clam Falls Trail
> Frederic, WI 54837
> 715-653-4295
> 
  sol...@legacysolar.com
> www.legacysolar.com
> -Original 
  Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org< 
  br>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
  Todd Cory
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:55 PM
> To: 
  RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for 
  SDHW
> 
> 
> The payback on a demand heater in energy 
  savings is like 50+ years. A
> traditional tank heater, super insulated 
  has very little loss.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> 
  Peter Parrish wrote:
> You’re right, Todd, there is often a space 
  limitation. But overall, the
> tankless approach is more economical, 
  eliminating the need to keep 80 odd
> gallons of water perpetually up to 
  temperature. Remember the solar heated
> water is "make up water" and 
  can contribute to the temperature of the
> traditional water heater only 
  while hot water is being used. So, my guess is
> that 1/2 of the day in 
  a residence the traditional tank is keeping water up
> to temperature 
  for no apparent use.
> 
> - Peter
> 
> Peter T. 
  Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 
  820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 
  031806-26
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, 
  Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
> 
> 
> 
  
> From: 
  re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
  [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd 
  Cory
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:17 AM
> To

Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's

[Jason Szumlanski]

If it's "survival mode" only, why do you need 1,200 cycles?! How many
hurricanes/tornados/riots are you getting around there? :)

The S-460 is a great battery, but it's rated for 1200 cycles to 50%. I
don't have a cycle curve handy, but you can probably expect about half
the cycles at 80% DOD. 

Based on the price, it looks like you are talking about 8 of the S-460's
for 350aH @ 48V. Maybe go to 8 of the Concorde PVX-2580L and use a 50%
DOD factor instead. I'm not sure how that compares to the GNB price for
the same capacity. That also gives you the option for occasional deep
discharges to 80% DOD. The point is, it might be cheaper to increase
capacity and decrease DOD than to buy a "higher quality" battery that
can handle more cycles to 80% DOD. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar
Cape Coral, FL
www.FafcoSolar.com

--
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:28:39 -0500
From: 
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's
Message-ID: <8f9976ae8b824fd3ba899e857c202...@holtpc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Getting a few "survival mode" system requests...and of course they want
"no maintenance" battery bank.I have to smile when I see them flop
around on the floor when I show them the GNB Absolyte
pricing..Surrette's ain't that much cheaper (about $2000 in this
case) any one out there spec'd the S-460-AGM that can give me some
feedback?...looking for GNB- like performance (1200 cycles @ 80%dod
tested) for just a bit less money (or am I just imagining those are
oinking noises coming from above?)

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[SOLARPRO]

In our area of so cal, gas water heaters with SWH last as long as fifteen  
years no problem, and 20+ years is not uncommon - w/o anode rode redo.  But  
the ODWHs with which I am familiar usually need de-liming (service call)  
about every five years.  I do not have much data with ODWH with solar  
back-up, yet.  The larger the family in both cases, the faster the  failure.
ODWH manus seem to be claiming that the savings of standby heat loss is 15% 
 minimum, but if your heat loss is from standing solar heated water (which  
entered the tank when somebody last used the hot water) and you have set  
the outlep temp of the solar 15% higher than that of the old  fashioned water 
heater,  your heat loss is from solar heated  water.
The irony about _endless_ hot water is this - most of the people who have  
installed an instantaneous heater that is unassisted by solar will actually 
have  higher gas bills, specially if there are any teenagers in the house.
 
 
Patrick A.  Redgate
AMECO Solar, Inc.
Serving Solar California
Since  1974
7623 Somerset, Blvd.
Paramount, CA  90723
562-633-4400


_www.solarexpert.com_ (http://www.solarexpert.com/) 
_www.amecosolar.com_ (http://www.amecosolar.com/) 


In a message dated 9/17/2010 9:36:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
toddc...@finestplanet.com writes:

"repairable unit - you  don't have to trash it every seven years (reported
national  average)"

My tank is 20 years old now. I change the anode every 3  years.

Todd





Sent from Finest  Planet  WebMail.


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[RE-wrenches] T-240 transformer

[jay peltz]

HI all,

I had a customer burn up a T-240 auto former.

Anyone know if you can buy just the replacement transformer and if so whats the 
part number.

I couldn't even find a T-240 on  either Xantrex or Schneider's web sites?

I can fit in a Outback X-240 if needed, I measured but would be nice to the 
have the easy install part.

thanks

jay

peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's

[holtek]

Jason,
Yes, the higher capacity train of thought seems to work bestopted for 
the Concorde 9150T 2v bankbig thanks to Steve Bell for pushing me in the 
right direction.

Thanks to all for feedback.

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com

- Original Message - 
From: "Jason Szumlanski" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's



If it's "survival mode" only, why do you need 1,200 cycles?! How many
hurricanes/tornados/riots are you getting around there? :)

The S-460 is a great battery, but it's rated for 1200 cycles to 50%. I
don't have a cycle curve handy, but you can probably expect about half
the cycles at 80% DOD.

Based on the price, it looks like you are talking about 8 of the S-460's
for 350aH @ 48V. Maybe go to 8 of the Concorde PVX-2580L and use a 50%
DOD factor instead. I'm not sure how that compares to the GNB price for
the same capacity. That also gives you the option for occasional deep
discharges to 80% DOD. The point is, it might be cheaper to increase
capacity and decrease DOD than to buy a "higher quality" battery that
can handle more cycles to 80% DOD.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar
Cape Coral, FL
www.FafcoSolar.com

--
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:28:39 -0500
From: 
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's
Message-ID: <8f9976ae8b824fd3ba899e857c202...@holtpc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Getting a few "survival mode" system requests...and of course they want
"no maintenance" battery bank.I have to smile when I see them flop
around on the floor when I show them the GNB Absolyte
pricing..Surrette's ain't that much cheaper (about $2000 in this
case) any one out there spec'd the S-460-AGM that can give me some
feedback?...looking for GNB- like performance (1200 cycles @ 80%dod
tested) for just a bit less money (or am I just imagining those are
oinking noises coming from above?)

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] T-240 transformer

[Peter Parrish]

Please call Elie at (323) 258-8883. He's my office admin and he can tell you
where we purchase this puppy, both with and without the enclosure! I believe
it's SunWize but I'm not sure.

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 2:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] T-240 transformer

HI all,

I had a customer burn up a T-240 auto former.

Anyone know if you can buy just the replacement transformer and if so whats
the part number.

I couldn't even find a T-240 on  either Xantrex or Schneider's web sites?

I can fit in a Outback X-240 if needed, I measured but would be nice to the
have the easy install part.

thanks

jay

peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] T-240 transformer

[Carl Hansen]

   Hi Jay,
  Any idea what the circumstances were that led to the  demise of 
the T-240 and how the homeowner is going to avoid having that happen again ?

 Carl
 Hansen&Sun Elect.

On 9/17/2010 3:14 PM, jay peltz wrote:

HI all,

I had a customer burn up a T-240 auto former.

Anyone know if you can buy just the replacement transformer and if so whats the 
part number.

I couldn't even find a T-240 on  either Xantrex or Schneider's web sites?

I can fit in a Outback X-240 if needed, I measured but would be nice to the 
have the easy install part.

thanks

jay

peltz power


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[RE-wrenches] Wind tower harness recommendations

[Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind]

High, wind techs,
We need to buy new tower climbing/work harnesses.  What make, model,  
and features do you like and recommend?


I just sent a message to the Home Wind Tech list on this subject. But,  
as I haven't seen a message there since May, I thought I might  
generate a little more buzz, here. I'd be happy to continue or move  
the conversation to that list.


-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360.678.7131






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Re: [RE-wrenches] T-240 transformer

[jay peltz]

HI  Carl,

I'm not sure what did it.
It has been in service for many years as a step down from a 240v generator, 
doesn't have a fan, and is worked to its limit a lot.
6500 watt generator, driving a SW4024 trace, at pretty close to max settings.

I replaced it with a Outback w/fan which I have had good luck with.

So in the end unclear except possibly just a breakdown in the insulation due to 
extreme heat.

jay

peltz power


On Sep 17, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Carl Hansen wrote:

>   Hi Jay,
>  Any idea what the circumstances were that led to the  demise of the 
> T-240 and how the homeowner is going to avoid having that happen again ?
> Carl
> Hansen&Sun Elect.
> 
> On 9/17/2010 3:14 PM, jay peltz wrote:
>> HI all,
>> 
>> I had a customer burn up a T-240 auto former.
>> 
>> Anyone know if you can buy just the replacement transformer and if so whats 
>> the part number.
>> 
>> I couldn't even find a T-240 on  either Xantrex or Schneider's web sites?
>> 
>> I can fit in a Outback X-240 if needed, I measured but would be nice to the 
>> have the easy install part.
>> 
>> thanks
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>> peltz power
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Delta LAs

[Joel Davidson]

Wrenches,

Allan Sindelar's 2003 RE-Wrenches lightning discussion compilation was a 
keeper. Email me off-list for a copy. (Thank you Allan).

Joel Davidson
  - Original Message - 
  From: August Goers 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 6:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Delta LAs


  Jay - 

  I can see that point, but does that really effect insurance payout? It seems 
like one could argue that a properly installed system with proper grounding 
inspected by a building official has a lot more clout than and little grey 
cylinder next to the inverter or disconnect.

  Please all wrenches, correct me if I'm wrong but I can't remember a single 
time when there was a post about an actual lightning strike and a lightning 
arrestor actually doing its job - meaning that an arrestor took a hit and 
protected the array and or inverter. I've heard plenty of stories about blown 
lightning arrestors and good equipment but no one seems to know what caused the 
situation. It might be that lightning is hard to track and I agree with that. 
And lightning might have been the cause. It would be great to track 
lightning-fried installations to see what happened and what could be fixed. If 
lightning arrestors are the solution then by all means we should install them. 
Most of the time I think that proper grounding is the solution although I wish 
that field experience would prove the point. 

  What do you think?

  -A


  On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 5:28 PM, jay peltz  wrote:

I also live in a area without much lightning, however I install one in most 
systems for the simple reason of insurance.
If there is lightning damage, the insurance company can't use that as a way 
to not pay any claims.
ie cheap insurance.

jay

peltz power

On Sep 14, 2010, at 8:39 AM, August Goers wrote:

> All -
>
> I guess my thought is a little off topic, but are lightning arrestors 
even worth using at all? My logic has always been that if lightning does indeed 
strike that it's likely going to blow the arrestor and and inverter. We don't 
have much of a lightning issue issue in the Bay Area so I don't have any direct 
experience.
>
> Best,
>
> August
>


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  -- 
  August Goers
  VP, Engineering

  Luminalt Energy Corporation
  1320 Potrero Avenue
  San Francisco, CA 94110
  O: 415.641.4000
  M: 415.559.1525
  aug...@luminalt.com



--


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[RE-wrenches] sale to wrenches

[Alex Cozine]

A friend is selling some equipment.  If anyone is interested please email or
call our office.
1.Dakar Kombi sine wave Inverter/Charger combination made by Mastervolt

253-474-1968

-- Forwarded message --
From: Dave Cozine 
Date: Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 8:15 AM
Subject: wrenches for sale
To: acdc.coz...@gmail.com

Thank you,
*Dave Cozine
**www.brotherselectricsolar.com
*

> Hello Dave,
>
> It was good to see you after I was gone to Africa four years ago.
>
> The big system for our of the grid solar set up was never shipped to
> Africa.
>
> I have the following brand new Items;
>
> 1) Dakar Kombi sine wave Inverter/Charger combination made by
> Mastervolt, now known as Victron Energy in the Netherlands (UE).
>
> Power rating; 3000W - 6000W / 24 VDC
>
> Charge current; 100A 3-stage >> with automatic transfer switch.
>
> I got this at a good price from an ac/dc company that installed 45 of
> those units for the West coast Coast Guard. Also two units for Safe Boats
in Port Orchard to be shipped to Chili.
>
> 2) Alternator from Detroit Diesel Engine Co.
>
> Rated; 220 Amps and 28 VDC
>
> 3) 125 - 200 - 300 - 400 Amp fuses and shunts.
>
> 4) Max charge 24-v multistage regulator
>
> 5) 3/0 AGW wire with numerous lugs
>
> I am prepared to let this all go for $ 1500.00 which is 1/4 of mrsp.
>
> Greetings and till soon,
>
> Jan Felix



-- 
Alex Cozine
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Brothers Electric & Solar
brotherselectricsolar.com
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