Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof

[Phil Undercuffler]

There is a big difference between standing seam metal roofs and surface
screwed metal roofs.  With surface screwed (aka ProPanel or Ag Panel),
screws penetrate through the roof skin and rely upon a neoprene gasket under
a cupped washer to provide the weather-tight seal.  It makes a pretty good
seal and I've used it on my own home, but I don't think I'd use it in
Montana and I sure wouldn't try to attach PV over it.  The days of lagging L
feet through the roof deck are thankfully waning, and there is almost no
practical way to use a flashed method of mounting with surface screwed
metal.

With standing seam roofs, the metal is formed into long U shaped pans. As
each pan is installed, the roofer nails L shaped "clips" to the deck with
one side of the clip butted up against the latest pan.  The next pan is butted
up against the first, which captures the clip between the two.  The upward
facing legs of the U (and clip) are then crimped and folded over, locking
them together and forming a watertight seal.  I had a standing seam roof on
my home in Cincinnati -- eighty years old and still going strong.

The biggest challenge with attaching PV to standing seam roofs is not how
well the modules are attached to the skin, but how well the skin is attached
to the structure.  Read the archives, but in the end this really comes down
to how close the roofer installed the clips.  This is where the 4" that
Andrew mentioned comes into play (seems a little excessive to me, but what
the heck, I'm not a roofing dude and this isn't something you want to do
twice). The dream scenario part comes in when you realize that YOU get to
drive the bus on how closely the clips are installed, as opposed to being
presented with a roof where you have no idea how many clips were used, what
the spacing is, or even whether nails or screws or bubble gum were used to
connect them to the deck.  The folks that make the S-5 clamp know metal
roofs, and they can help you determine what spacing works for your
application.  Get that into the contract, and make sure someone is on site
providing oversight when the roof is installed.

As far as some of the other options which were presented -- yes, lagging
into engineered I-beams is probably not a good idea without checking with
the manufacturer, but adding a second layer of ply doesn't suddenly make a
structural base for lag screws.  Lag screw pull-out resistance is provided
by inches of thread embedded into solid wood, and shiners (fasteners that
poke through the deck into the attic space) won't give any real strength. If
it's really 1/2" ply, adding a layer of 3/4 ply would give you 1-1/4" of
"wood" -- do the math and see if that's enough for your climate. Adding 2x
blocking would be an option if you have access to the attic, but you need to
make sure the loads transfer to the rafters (I-beams), rather than
concentrate on the deck.  Nailing the blocking would be fine -- after all,
that's how houses are built.  Lagging the blocking as suggested by someone
earlier, however, will not only be insanely difficult but risk splitting the
top chord of the beam.  If you split that, I would immediately stop what
you're doing and consult with the I-beam manufacturer.  Big liability moment
there.

But I'd avoid all that lags, nails, plywood and blocking entirely, put on a
standing seam metal roof with adequate clips and install the PV with S-5
clamps.

My .02

Phil Undercuffler





On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:52 AM, benn kilburn  wrote:

>  andrew,
> a few comments added to your last email...
>
> You Wrote
>
> If you ask me this is a dream scenario.  The scary thing about S-5!s is
> that you rarely know how often the roofing panels are attached to the
> decking and how well the decking is attached to the framing. i'm not
> overly familiar with standing seam metal roofs (and i know they are not all
> created equal) but aren't the screws holding the metal roof panel to the
> decking visible at the bottom, at the top under the vent cap and anywhere
> along the length of said panel?  i agree about the 'unknown' attachments
> btwn the decking and the framing   In this case you can direct the roofer
> to fasten the roof as often as you want.  I had a PE do an analysis for a
> sure-fire acceptable attachment method for a standing seam roof given: 90
> mph wind zone, 18" wide standing seam roofing panels, flush-mounted PV array
> (modules to rail to S-5!s, no tilt legs), and his result was that if the
> roofing panels are fastened every 4" along each seam you are in the clear.  No
> doubt, that seems like quite a few fasteners.  He did not address the
> decking-to-framing attachment, So worst case scenario, you get a 90+ mph
> wind that takes the array, the metal roof *and the decking* for a ride to
> the ground, (HAS ANYONE SEEN OR HAD THIS HAPPEN?) when it is determined
> that the decking wasn't properly attached to the framing, who do ya call?
>  PV installer, PE who stamped it, roofer?  I'm not looking for a place t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Mark Frye]

Bill,

I don't really want to call you out, but I also don't like you lording your
expertise over me, implying that I am stupid and I am going to get myself
killed someday, or worse yet kill someone else:

1 - 2008 NEC 334.15 NM Cable...Exposed Work(C) in unfinished basements.
What exactly changed in 1990 to prevent the scenario I mentioned?
2 - Which code are you referring to that includes wood lattice as part of a
minimum standard for guarding exposed electrical work?
3 - I think I understand the definition of readily accessible fairly well
and think there is a basis to argue that placing wood lattice around a
ground mount rack does not mean that the exposed wiring on the rack is no
longer in a readily accessible location. The use of the term "remove
obstacles" in the definition of readily accessible refers to obstacles that
prevent personnel from approaching the workspace around equipment. In this
sense the lattice may serve as a guard to the otherwise exposed wiring, but
it does not change the fact that wiring is in a readily accessible location
and must therefore, according to Code, be run in a raceway. Only placing a
fence around the entire rack (such that the workspace around the equipment
therein can no longer be reached quickly) eliminates the requirement that
the PV circuit conductor be run in raceway.

The Code is in place and we will all learn how to work with it. But I think
this issue points out the continuing growing pains of the industry when we
are still talking about on one hand the detailed requirements of a UL1741
inverter and on the other the use of garden supply material as requirements
for ensuring the safety of the system we build.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:55 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Mark,

The fact is you can't legally walk up and touch NM cable anymore. Whenever
your house was built, that may have been code compliant, but not since the
early 1990s has that been allowed. You may think a wooden lattice work is
insufficient protection, but the code disagrees with you as a minimum
standard. You can build all the chain link fences you want around your PV
systems. Not me. It is a waste of money. The code is addressing the issue of
"readily accessible." Darwin awards are plentiful for people who want to get
themselves into trouble. We just have to make it a little more difficult for
unsuspecting kids using the underside of a PV array for a play fort. You
obviously haven't been to one of my code trainings in a long time. Maybe
it's time for a refresher.

The 30V limit has to do with the voltage at which serious shock can occur in
wet environments. Most people are familiar with the 50V limit by OSHA, but
that is for dry environments. In the UL standards for shock hazard, the
voltage limit is 30V. Now you know.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

You know, I can go down into my unfinished basement, through an unlocked
full height door.  The wiring in this space is fully Code compliant. And
yet, I can walk over and put my bare hand right onto a piece NM cable that
has 200A of 240 VAC running on it.

But God forbid I should be able to walk over to a PV array and put my hand
on a piece of double insulated PV wire with 10A of 30VDC running on it.

I don't get it.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Maybe they should require that extension cords be in conduit. :) where do
you draw the line? If lattice is good enough, is fiberglass screen okay? How
about bird netting or orange construction fence?

Seriously though, we have never been required to use a lattice or fenced
enclosure for a ground rack around here to pass inspection. It would be nice
if a rack manufacturer came up with a slick and cost effective (cheap)
method to cover the back of the panels /racks without losing air flow and
meeting code requirements. I would install that regardless of lax local
interpretation. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Matt Lafferty]

I agree with Bill. Am I the only one who sees this as a 240 VAC application, 
not a 29.5 VDC application? The AC will be run in cable, not conduit, under the 
array. Code and common sense say we don't want unqualified people walking up to 
it and grabbing cables.

If it's a conventional ground rack, lattice is an affordable, reasonably 
attractive, and effective physical barrier for people and large animals. 

This method also doesn't create an attractive nesting place around the wires 
for squirrels and other knawing critters like an expanded metal backscreen 
would. And it doesn't affect module warranties.

$0.02001

Matt Lafferty

On Oct 21, 2010 2:58 PM, Bill Brooks  wrote: 

Drake,



I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so

that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably

attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can

be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for

panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.



Bill.





-Original Message-

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org

[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake

Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 9:35 AM

To: RE-wrenches

Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening



Hello Wrenches,



We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase 

inverters.  690.31 requires readily accessible source and output 

conductors OPERATING at over 30 volts to be installed in a 

raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 29.4 volts.  Of course 

it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any argument that 

would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?



The NEC Handbook comments "Most PV modules do not have provisions for 

attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made "not readily 

accessible" by use of physical barriers such as wire screening".



I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the 

E, W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily 

accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work 

that would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence 

around the array?



Thanks,



Drake

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Bill Brooks]

Mark,

The fact is you can't legally walk up and touch NM cable anymore. Whenever
your house was built, that may have been code compliant, but not since the
early 1990s has that been allowed. You may think a wooden lattice work is
insufficient protection, but the code disagrees with you as a minimum
standard. You can build all the chain link fences you want around your PV
systems. Not me. It is a waste of money. The code is addressing the issue of
"readily accessible." Darwin awards are plentiful for people who want to get
themselves into trouble. We just have to make it a little more difficult for
unsuspecting kids using the underside of a PV array for a play fort. You
obviously haven't been to one of my code trainings in a long time. Maybe
it's time for a refresher.

The 30V limit has to do with the voltage at which serious shock can occur in
wet environments. Most people are familiar with the 50V limit by OSHA, but
that is for dry environments. In the UL standards for shock hazard, the
voltage limit is 30V. Now you know.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:37 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

You know, I can go down into my unfinished basement, through an unlocked
full height door.  The wiring in this space is fully Code compliant. And
yet, I can walk over and put my bare hand right onto a piece NM cable that
has 200A of 240 VAC running on it.

But God forbid I should be able to walk over to a PV array and put my hand
on a piece of double insulated PV wire with 10A of 30VDC running on it.

I don't get it.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Maybe they should require that extension cords be in conduit. :) where do
you draw the line? If lattice is good enough, is fiberglass screen okay? How
about bird netting or orange construction fence?

Seriously though, we have never been required to use a lattice or fenced
enclosure for a ground rack around here to pass inspection. It would be nice
if a rack manufacturer came up with a slick and cost effective (cheap)
method to cover the back of the panels /racks without losing air flow and
meeting code requirements. I would install that regardless of lax local
interpretation. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Mark Frye]

You know, I can go down into my unfinished basement, through an unlocked
full height door.  The wiring in this space is fully Code compliant. And
yet, I can walk over and put my bare hand right onto a piece NM cable that
has 200A of 240 VAC running on it.

But God forbid I should be able to walk over to a PV array and put my hand
on a piece of double insulated PV wire with 10A of 30VDC running on it.

I don't get it.
 
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
Szumlanski
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Maybe they should require that extension cords be in conduit. :) where do
you draw the line? If lattice is good enough, is fiberglass screen okay? How
about bird netting or orange construction fence?

Seriously though, we have never been required to use a lattice or fenced
enclosure for a ground rack around here to pass inspection. It would be nice
if a rack manufacturer came up with a slick and cost effective (cheap)
method to cover the back of the panels /racks without losing air flow and
meeting code requirements. I would install that regardless of lax local
interpretation. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Jason Szumlanski]

Maybe they should require that extension cords be in conduit. :) where do you 
draw the line? If lattice is good enough, is fiberglass screen okay? How about 
bird netting or orange construction fence?

Seriously though, we have never been required to use a lattice or fenced 
enclosure for a ground rack around here to pass inspection. It would be nice if 
a rack manufacturer came up with a slick and cost effective (cheap) method to 
cover the back of the panels /racks without losing air flow and meeting code 
requirements. I would install that regardless of lax local interpretation. 

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

On Oct 21, 2010, at 6:15 PM, "Mark Frye"  wrote:

> I still wonder about the 30VDC requirement creeping into the Code.  But I
> feel even more strange when, and it is hard to keep a straight face, let
> alone actually think about relegating the integrity of my PV system
> topanels of wood lattice. Perhaps Home Depot does have the right
> idea about solar since I have to go there to get the cheapest of flimsy
> matters in order to make a token gesture to a suspect Code requirement.
> 
> Come on, if the requirement of the Code is based on sustentative safety
> issues, it seems that the minimum appropriate response for a ground mount PV
> system would be steel chain link fence.
> 
> Hell we have a pool here at our condo and we need a 5 foot metal fence with
> self closing gate to keep kids out.  The County would laugh at me if I went
> and asked if I could replace it with a wood lattice fence.
> 
> Mark Frye
> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
> 303 Redbud Way
> Nevada City,  CA 95959
> (530) 401-8024
> www.berkeleysolar.com 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:57 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening
> 
> Drake,
> 
> I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so
> that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably
> attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can
> be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for
> panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.
> 
> Bill.
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Mark Frye]

I still wonder about the 30VDC requirement creeping into the Code.  But I
feel even more strange when, and it is hard to keep a straight face, let
alone actually think about relegating the integrity of my PV system
topanels of wood lattice. Perhaps Home Depot does have the right
idea about solar since I have to go there to get the cheapest of flimsy
matters in order to make a token gesture to a suspect Code requirement.

Come on, if the requirement of the Code is based on sustentative safety
issues, it seems that the minimum appropriate response for a ground mount PV
system would be steel chain link fence.

Hell we have a pool here at our condo and we need a 5 foot metal fence with
self closing gate to keep kids out.  The County would laugh at me if I went
and asked if I could replace it with a wood lattice fence.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.com 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 2:57 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Drake,

I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so
that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably
attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can
be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for
panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.

Bill.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Bill Brooks]

Drake,

I recommend using 4'x8' panels of lattice work that is either wood or PVC so
that you don't have worry about grounding the material. It is reasonably
attractive and can hide some of the ugly parts of the array. The panels can
be held on with battens that screw into the structural member and allow for
panels to be removed in case the array wiring needs to be maintained.

Bill.


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 9:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase 
inverters.  690.31 requires readily accessible source and output 
conductors OPERATING at over 30 volts to be installed in a 
raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 29.4 volts.  Of course 
it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any argument that 
would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?

The NEC Handbook comments "Most PV modules do not have provisions for 
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made "not readily 
accessible" by use of physical barriers such as wire screening".

I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the 
E, W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily 
accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work 
that would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence 
around the array?

Thanks,

Drake 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] boiler on inverter

[jason pozner]

Peter,

We had a client with a SW 4024 and his system was trying to power a new
Buderus boiler.  The boiler controller didn't like the power quality.  We
cleaned up that circuit with a capacitor and has been working great since.
We didn' have a sleeping issue, but he did have quite a few phantom loads.

Jay Pozner
Nunatak Alternative Energy Solutions

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Peter Talmage  wrote:

> I have a customer who wants to use a wall mount gas boiler on their
> independent power system. Does anyone have any experience with wall mount
> gas boilers that can wake up a sleeping Trace 4024 inverter and operate
> correctly? What would the electrical power usage be during operation?
> Thanks.
>
> Peter Talmage, PE
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof

[benn kilburn]

andrew,a few comments added to your last email...
You Wrote If you ask me this is a dream scenario.  The scary thing about 
S-5!s is that you rarely know how often the roofing panels are attached to the 
decking and how well the decking is attached to the framing. i'm not overly 
familiar with standing seam metal roofs (and i know they are not all created 
equal) but aren't the screws holding the metal roof panel to the decking 
visible at the bottom, at the top under the vent cap and anywhere along the 
length of said panel?  i agree about the 'unknown' attachments btwn the decking 
and the framing   In this case you can direct the roofer to fasten the roof as 
often as you want.  I had a PE do an analysis for a sure-fire acceptable 
attachment method for a standing seam roof given: 90 mph wind zone, 18" wide 
standing seam roofing panels, flush-mounted PV array (modules to rail to S-5!s, 
no tilt legs), and his result was that if the roofing panels are fastened every 
4" along each seam you are in the clear.  No doubt, that seems like quite a few 
fasteners.  He did not address the decking-to-framing attachment, So worst case 
scenario, you get a 90+ mph wind that takes the array, the metal roof and the 
decking for a ride to the ground, (HAS ANYONE SEEN OR HAD THIS HAPPEN?) when it 
is determined that the decking wasn't properly attached to the framing, who do 
ya call?  PV installer, PE who stamped it, roofer?  I'm not looking for a place 
to point fingers, I'm just looking for some insight on this so i understand our 
responsibilities a bit better.  I realize that it would be onerous to confirm 
the number and placement of decking to framing attachments)  but while the roof 
is off you could add as many fasteners as you want.  If the structure of the 
roof is in question I would definitely have a PE look at it and stamp the plans 
before proceeding, but once you have everything under the roof robust and 
approved, you are primed and ready for a worry-free, penetration-free 
S-5!-to-standing-seam array install.In another email string someone mentioned 
issues with S-5!s slipping down the roof due to snow which is why I recommend 
attaching at every seam and breaking out that torque-wrench when installing.  
Good luck!...end of your msg
in response to Kris' suggestion, don't the 2x6's need to be toe-nailed into the 
'rafters' on either side? or in this case toe-nailed into the beams? which 
probably wouldn't be much different than the 'inadvisable' lag bolting into 
them.
cheers,benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY







From: atru...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:30:40 -0600
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof



If you ask me this is a dream scenario.  The scary thing about S-5!s is that 
you rarely know how often the roofing panels are attached to the decking and 
how well the decking is attached to the framing.  In this case you can direct 
the roofer to fasten the roof as often as you want.  I had a PE do an analysis 
for a sure-fire acceptable attachment method for a standing seam roof given: 90 
mph wind zone, 18" wide standing seam roofing panels, flush-mounted PV array 
(modules to rail to S-5!s, no tilt legs), and his result was that if the 
roofing panels are fastened every 4" along each seam you are in the clear.  He 
did not address the decking-to-framing attachment, but while the roof is off 
you could add as many fasteners as you want.  If the structure of the roof is 
in question I would definitely have a PE look at it and stamp the plans before 
proceeding, but once you have everything under the roof robust and approved, 
you are primed and ready for a worry-free, penetration-free 
S-5!-to-standing-seam array install.

In another email string someone mentioned issues with S-5!s slipping down the 
roof due to snow which is why I recommend attaching at every seam and breaking 
out that torque-wrench when installing.  
Good luck!


Andrew Truitt
NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)




Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting




(202) 486-7507

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713







"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer 
fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous 
fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers 
more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"



~William McDonough




On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Kristopher Schmid  
wrote:
What about screwing in double 2x6s flush to the roof deck between the beams 
where your feet will attach and lag bolting into that?  Definitely check with 
the beam manufacturer first, though.



 
Kris
Legacy Solar

864 Clam Falls Trail

Frederic, WI 54837

715-653-4295

sol...@legacysolar.com

www.legacysolar.com 

-Original Message-

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenche

Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation

[Matt Lafferty]

Hi Kelly,

I'm jealous. This sounds like a sweet opportunity. As long as your contract
is clear on the things you are going to cover. Including being reimbursed
for servicing anything that wasn't supplied by you. I'm with Darryl T on
this Get paid for labor and common BOS stuff only. Stay out of the
responsibility circle for the final design and major product selection. 

I know you will offer sound advice to the overall design (foundation,
eqipment locations, etc.), even if you can't control the choice to go VAWT.
I also know you will build it with the best chance for success, which is all
they can ask for, in my opinion.

I hope you are able to share the experiences with this group, good and bad,
during and after the initial installation.

Best of Luck!

Matt Lafferty

-Original Message-
From: Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation

Greg,
I've already done as you've suggested. We are on record for opposing  
the choice. The Navy (well, the civilian Navy employee who wrote the  
RFP and controls the contract)  is firm on doing VAWT's.

The GC is being generous with offering to buy the turbines and carry  
the VAWT warranty. Looks like I'll take them up on it.

Thanks for the feedback
-Kelly

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360-678-7131



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[William Miller]

Drake:

Who is manufacturing the racking?  DPW has worked with us to develop some 
screening options.  WE have also developed our own screening (and wire 
management) procedures.  We spend a lot of time creating these procedures 
we keep them to ourselves to prevent local competitors from stealing 
appropriating ideas.  I can give you more ideas off list.


I think we all need to be calling racking manufacturers and requesting they 
develop screening and wire management options for their products.


William Miller



At 09:34 AM 10/21/2010, you wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase inverters.  690.31 
requires readily accessible source and output conductors OPERATING at over 
30 volts to be installed in a raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 
29.4 volts.  Of course it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any 
argument that would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?


The NEC Handbook comments "Most PV modules do not have provisions for 
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made "not readily 
accessible" by use of physical barriers such as wire screening".


I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the E, W 
and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily 
accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work that 
would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence around the array?


Thanks,

Drake
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.448 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3210 - Release Date: 10/21/10 
06:34:00


Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof

[Andrew Truitt]

If you ask me this is a dream scenario.  The scary thing about S-5!s is that
you rarely know how often the roofing panels are attached to the decking and
how well the decking is attached to the framing.  In this case you can
direct the roofer to fasten the roof as often as you want.  I had a PE do an
analysis for a sure-fire acceptable attachment method for a standing seam
roof given: 90 mph wind zone, 18" wide standing seam roofing panels,
flush-mounted PV array (modules to rail to S-5!s, no tilt legs), and his
result was that if the roofing panels are fastened every 4" along each seam
you are in the clear.  He did not address the decking-to-framing attachment,
but while the roof is off you could add as many fasteners as you want.  If
the structure of the roof is in question I would definitely have a PE look
at it and stamp the plans before proceeding, but once you have everything
under the roof robust and approved, you are primed and ready for a
worry-free, penetration-free S-5!-to-standing-seam array install.

In another email string someone mentioned issues with S-5!s slipping down
the roof due to snow which is why I recommend attaching at every seam and
breaking out that torque-wrench when installing.

Good luck!


Andrew Truitt
NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting
(202) 486-7507
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713



"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Kristopher Schmid 
wrote:

What about screwing in double 2x6s flush to the roof deck between the beams
where your feet will attach and lag bolting into that?  Definitely check
with the beam manufacturer first, though.



Kris

Legacy Solar
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
715-653-4295
sol...@legacysolar.com
www.legacysolar.com

-Original Message-
*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Scott McCalmont
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:00 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof

In general, you shouldn't drill or cut the flanges on engineered wood beams.
I think that eliminates lag screws into the rafters. They probably wouldn't
have the same pull-out strength as a lag screw into a conventional rafter,
either.

Scott

On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Chris Daum wrote:


  Dear Wrenches:
 I have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to upgrade
it to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it.   The rafters are those
(sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and shingles).
What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and would you beef up the
wood to lag into?
 Thanks for all your input.
  Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org





--
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Dave Click]

How about hardware cloth along the back of the array beneath the rails? 
I think that's been suggested on this list before.


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening
From: Drake 
To: RE-wrenches 
Date: 2010/10/21 12:34


Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase inverters. 690.31
requires readily accessible source and output conductors OPERATING at
over 30 volts to be installed in a raceway. The Vmp of the REC230PE
modules is 29.4 volts. Of course it would go higher in cold weather. Do
I have any argument that would allow us to not install the DC conductors
in a raceway?

The NEC Handbook comments "Most PV modules do not have provisions for
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made "not readily
accessible" by use of physical barriers such as wire screening".

I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the E,
W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily
accessible. Does anyone know what this is? What else would work that
would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence around the
array?

Thanks,

Drake
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Screening

[Drake]

Hello Wrenches,

We are installing a ground mount system with Enphase 
inverters.  690.31 requires readily accessible source and output 
conductors OPERATING at over 30 volts to be installed in a 
raceway.  The Vmp of the REC230PE modules is 29.4 volts.  Of course 
it would go higher in cold weather.  Do I have any argument that 
would allow us to not install the DC conductors in a raceway?


The NEC Handbook comments "Most PV modules do not have provisions for 
attaching raceways. These circuits may have to be made "not readily 
accessible" by use of physical barriers such as wire screening".


I have heard of a green screening material that has been used on the 
E, W and N sides of ground mounts to render the area not readily 
accessible.  Does anyone know what this is?  What else would work 
that would be more cost effective than running a chain link fence 
around the array?


Thanks,

Drake 


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation

[North Texas Renewable Energy Inc]

Greg,
keep in mind this is the US military we're talking about. They neither think
nor function in reality a large part of the time. They are trained to follow
orders and are not allowed to think for themselves. Maybe you've never
served
Jim Duncan
**
Kelly,

I've never seen one or heard of one that produces power or lasts.  If you
install these your name is on them.  If they don't work it reflects on you
and your business.  I'd write the prime contractor a short note letting
them know that you cannot find a VAWT that you can recommend with a clear
conscious and because you don't want he and his company to wind up with a
black eye, your not going to recommend a VAWT to him for purchase.

If he's smart he'll tell the Navy he can't get a knowledgeable person with
a conscious to sell him one and they'll do the right thing and either
install a HAWT of good lineage or more solar.

Best,

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.

> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
>   re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..."
>
>
> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the
> Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines
> from the quoted message.
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: VAWT recommendation (Dan Fink)
>2. Re: Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps (benn kilburn)
>3. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (Hans Frederickson)
>4. Re: VAWT recommendation (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind)
>5. Re: VAWT recommendation (Dan Fink)
>6. Re: Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps
>   (North Texas Renewable Energy Inc)
>7. Re: VAWT recommendation (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind)
>8. Re: Inverter 1741 Listing Process (Exeltech)
>9. Re: The perfect solar ready roof
>   (North Texas Renewable Energy Inc)
>   10. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (Chris Daum)
>   11. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (Richard L Ratico)
>   12. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (Chris Daum)
>   13. Re: VAWT recommendation (Darryl Thayer)
>   14. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (benn kilburn)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 15:16:46 -0600
> From: Dan Fink 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation
> Message-ID: <4cbf5c3...@hughes.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Kelly;
>
> I would insist on a years worth of actual wind speed versus energy
> output data performed by an unaffiliated third party, before even
> touching this project with a 10-foot gin pole.
>
> DAN FINK
> Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
>
> Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote:
>> Wind wrenches,
>> We have a subcontract to install 30kW of VAWT, along with 30kW of PV for
>> the Navy. The Navy specified Helix Wind turbines, and is adamant on
>> sticking with VAWTs, although they may accept an alternative. The GC we
>> are working under is sufficiently scared of Helix to look for a viable
>> alternative. Are there any?!
>>
>> The GC has done some research and wants to use the UGE-4K from Urban
>> Green Energy http://www.urbangreenenergy.com
>> It's an H-style lift machine that appears to have several European
>> certifications on safety, power performance, noise, and vibration.
>>
>> Anyone know anything about these turbines or company? UGE's address is
>> NY. Roy?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Kelly
>>
>> Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
>> Whidbey Sun & Wind
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
>> 360-678-7131
begin_of_the_skype_highlighting  360-678-7131  end_of_the_sk
ype_highlighting
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 16:17:36 -0600
> From: benn kilburn 
> To: Wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>
> Not a lot of you guys in the field today 'eh?  I was just checking a spec
> on my laptop and noticed i had a wireless signal and a mailbox full of
> great feedback, thanks again everyone!!!
>  I'll go over all the details from everyone a little more when i'm done on
> site for the day.  For a few of you i just wanted to show you this link
> to the S-5-PV clamp, which is different from just the S-5! clamp  > Click
> here to learn more. <  The S-5-PV does not need rails, the mod frames sit
> on the 'mounting disc' which can accommodate one or two modules.  BUT,
> with the Enphase system, this leave no where to mo

[RE-wrenches] 100kW BOS cost per Watt

[Luke Christy]

Esteemed Wrenches,
We are working on preliminary pricing (not a bid) for several 100kW  
ground mount commercial  systems (crystalline fixed mount). This sort  
of system is somewhat outside of our niche, and I'm wondering what  
folks who do it all the time are seeing for typical BOS costs (Civil  
work, engineering, wire and combiners, etc) at this size level. There  
are a few threads on the list addressing these costs, but they are out  
of date at this point


If appropriate, I'd also love to hear any comments on what sort of  
retail price per watt you're seeing on systems this size.


Thanks in advance


Luke Christy

 NABCEP Certified PV Installer™: Certification #031409-25 (Luke  
Christy)

 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer (Luke Christy)

Solar Gain Services, LLC
Monte Vista, CO




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation

[Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind]

, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind
 wrote:


From: Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 6:49 PM
Yeah, me either.. (sigh)...

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360.678.7131

On Oct 20, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Dan Fink wrote:


Kelly;

I don't currently know of any product with which the

words "VAWT" and "last a while" can be used in the same
sentence -- in terms of company longevity, number of units
flying in the field, *or* turbine reliability record.


DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting LLC

Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote:

Hi Dan,
Project done been touched - we're committed to

putting up something with an upright axis in the wind

Do you have any info about Urban Green Energy?

Fellow we've been talking with in NY is Ryan Gilchrist.

I've always thought it would be interesting if a

client absolutely insisted on VAWT's, no matter what I said,
and we wouldn't be held accountable for not dissuading them.
The GC on this project has offered to buy the turbines and
carry the manufacturer's warranty with the Navy, with us
just responsible for the installation. I don't know if it
can get better than that. Monitoring and everything.

I just need to decide whether to give up the

material sale. If we managed to find a VAWT that could
endure, and have a reasonable output (it helps to get an
additional 12?/kWh for production over net metering in WA),
we have several customers who would be interested, even when
fully informed about the low ROI compared to PV. These folks
just want to see SOME benefit to our long, windy winters and
don't have the moxy or money to put a VAWT up high. The
turbine - and company - just gotta last awhile.

Thanks,
-Kelly


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org








--

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 01:55:30 -0600
From: benn kilburn 
To: Wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


chris,don't forget to make sure that the existing roof structure is
engineered to support the added weight of the extra layer of  
plywood, as

well as the racking/modules.
benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A
SUNNY DAY








From: ch...@oasismontana.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:29:33 -0600
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof

Hi Dick:

Nope, not just high wind area, but the site gets a real bashing of  
hail

at
least once every 3 to 4 years (like quarter sized hail at 60 - 80  
mph)

-- so
I will pass on the plasticky amorphous stuff, thank you, although  
yes,

they
do look nice (til they get those whitish translucent spots from  
hail).

There's room for about a 5.5KW array of some decent modules (read:
Sanyos or
some other high efficient modules).  I just think we need another  
layer

of
roofing material; we'll need 16 sheets of some kinda plywood.  I am
leaning
more and more in that direction.

But I really do appreciate all your thoughts!  And by the way, right
NOW,
sunny day time temps are near 70.  Nights are a chilly 35.

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of  
Richard

L
Ratico
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:59 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof

Chris,

You've probably already considered and rejected this... Unisolar PVL
modules
on standing seam roofing. Solves the structure & wind problems. Goes
fast if
installed on the pans before they go on the roof. Price is pretty  
good

per
watt now.
Can't beat the look. Made in USA. I think the only downside is you  
may

not
have enough area to place 5kW.

I bet it's getting cold in Montana. You could stick the modules on  
the

pans
in a heated space somewhere. This would really cut down your time  
and

exposure on the roof.

Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric



--- You wrote:
Dear Wrenches
have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to  
upgrade

it
to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it.   The rafters are  
those

(sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2&q

Re: [RE-wrenches] boiler on inverter

[Dana]

Peter  - I would not rely on the inverter coming out of
sleep if heat is critical for the dwelling. Most wall
mounted boilers' have a 5-20 watt low voltage transformer
that is an additional load too.

Add a module or two and sleep well at night.

 

Thanks,  Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf
Of Peter Talmage
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:41 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] boiler on inverter

 


I have a customer who wants to use a wall mount gas boiler
on their independent power system. Does anyone have any
experience with wall mount gas boilers that can wake up a
sleeping Trace 4024 inverter and operate correctly? What
would the electrical power usage be during operation?
Thanks.

Peter Talmage, PE

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation

[greg]

Kelly,

I've never seen one or heard of one that produces power or lasts.  If you
install these your name is on them.  If they don't work it reflects on you
and your business.  I'd write the prime contractor a short note letting
them know that you cannot find a VAWT that you can recommend with a clear
conscious and because you don't want he and his company to wind up with a
black eye, your not going to recommend a VAWT to him for purchase.

If he's smart he'll tell the Navy he can't get a knowledgeable person with
a conscious to sell him one and they'll do the right thing and either
install a HAWT of good lineage or more solar.

Best,

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.

> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
>   re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..."
>
>
> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the
> Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines
> from the quoted message.
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: VAWT recommendation (Dan Fink)
>2. Re: Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps (benn kilburn)
>3. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (Hans Frederickson)
>4. Re: VAWT recommendation (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind)
>5. Re: VAWT recommendation (Dan Fink)
>6. Re: Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps
>   (North Texas Renewable Energy Inc)
>7. Re: VAWT recommendation (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind)
>8. Re: Inverter 1741 Listing Process (Exeltech)
>9. Re: The perfect solar ready roof
>   (North Texas Renewable Energy Inc)
>   10. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (Chris Daum)
>   11. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (Richard L Ratico)
>   12. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (Chris Daum)
>   13. Re: VAWT recommendation (Darryl Thayer)
>   14. Re: The perfect solar ready roof (benn kilburn)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 15:16:46 -0600
> From: Dan Fink 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VAWT recommendation
> Message-ID: <4cbf5c3...@hughes.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Kelly;
>
> I would insist on a years worth of actual wind speed versus energy
> output data performed by an unaffiliated third party, before even
> touching this project with a 10-foot gin pole.
>
> DAN FINK
> Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
>
> Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote:
>> Wind wrenches,
>> We have a subcontract to install 30kW of VAWT, along with 30kW of PV for
>> the Navy. The Navy specified Helix Wind turbines, and is adamant on
>> sticking with VAWTs, although they may accept an alternative. The GC we
>> are working under is sufficiently scared of Helix to look for a viable
>> alternative. Are there any?!
>>
>> The GC has done some research and wants to use the UGE-4K from Urban
>> Green Energy http://www.urbangreenenergy.com
>> It's an H-style lift machine that appears to have several European
>> certifications on safety, power performance, noise, and vibration.
>>
>> Anyone know anything about these turbines or company? UGE's address is
>> NY. Roy?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Kelly
>>
>> Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
>> Whidbey Sun & Wind
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
>> 360-678-7131
begin_of_the_skype_highlighting  360-678-7131  end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 16:17:36 -0600
> From: benn kilburn 
> To: Wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Enphase when using S-5-PV Clamps
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>
> Not a lot of you guys in the field today 'eh?  I was just checking a spec
> on my laptop and noticed i had a wireless signal and a mailbox full of
> great feedback, thanks again everyone!!!
>  I'll go over all the details from everyone a little more when i'm done on
> site for the day.  For a few of you i just wanted to show you this link
> to the S-5-PV clamp, which is different from just the S-5! clamp  > Click
> here to learn more. <  The S-5-PV does not need rails, the mod frames sit
> on the 'mounting disc' which can accommodate one or two modules.  BUT,
> with the Enphase system, this leave no where to mount the inverters.
> Bill made a good point; save this mounting method for string inverter
> systems.  We are now planning this project using just the S-5
> clamp/L-foot/rail system.  No problems.
> Back at 'er!
> benn
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.

Re: [RE-wrenches] boiler on inverter

[dan]

I hear there are some Gas Boilers that don't use electricity at all.. So when a zone calls for heat, the circulator fires and wakes up the inverter.. and of course, I do know of folks that just can't let their system sleep in the first place.Dan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] boiler on inverter
From: Peter Talmage 
Date: Wed, October 20, 2010 8:40 am
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

I have a customer who wants to use a wall mount gas boiler on their independent power system. Does anyone have any experience with wall mount gas boilers that can wake up a sleeping Trace 4024 inverter and operate correctly? What would the electrical power usage be during operation? Thanks.Peter Talmage, PE ___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof

[Richard L Ratico]

Chris,

You most likely recall, there was a thread here discussing special standing seam
attachment details required with the S-5 product.
With your weather, those might be critical for the roofers to follow, should you
go that route.

I was unaware of the white spotting from hail you've seen on the Unisolar
modules. Do you have any photos you could share?

Thanks,
Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric



--- You wrote:
chris,don't forget to make sure that the existing roof structure is engineered
to support the added weight of the extra layer of plywood, as well as the
racking/modules.
benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY







> From: ch...@oasismontana.com
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:29:33 -0600
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
> 
> Hi Dick:
> 
> Nope, not just high wind area, but the site gets a real bashing of hail at
> least once every 3 to 4 years (like quarter sized hail at 60 - 80 mph) -- so
> I will pass on the plasticky amorphous stuff, thank you, although yes, they
> do look nice (til they get those whitish translucent spots from hail).
> There's room for about a 5.5KW array of some decent modules (read: Sanyos or
> some other high efficient modules).  I just think we need another layer of
> roofing material; we'll need 16 sheets of some kinda plywood.  I am leaning
> more and more in that direction.
> 
> But I really do appreciate all your thoughts!  And by the way, right NOW,
> sunny day time temps are near 70.  Nights are a chilly 35.
> 
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309
> 406-777-0830 fax
--- end of quote ---
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof

[benn kilburn]

chris,don't forget to make sure that the existing roof structure is engineered 
to support the added weight of the extra layer of plywood, as well as the 
racking/modules.
benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY







> From: ch...@oasismontana.com
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:29:33 -0600
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
> 
> Hi Dick:
> 
> Nope, not just high wind area, but the site gets a real bashing of hail at
> least once every 3 to 4 years (like quarter sized hail at 60 - 80 mph) -- so
> I will pass on the plasticky amorphous stuff, thank you, although yes, they
> do look nice (til they get those whitish translucent spots from hail).
> There's room for about a 5.5KW array of some decent modules (read: Sanyos or
> some other high efficient modules).  I just think we need another layer of
> roofing material; we'll need 16 sheets of some kinda plywood.  I am leaning
> more and more in that direction.
> 
> But I really do appreciate all your thoughts!  And by the way, right NOW,
> sunny day time temps are near 70.  Nights are a chilly 35.
> 
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309
> 406-777-0830 fax
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L
> Ratico
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:59 PM
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof
> 
> Chris,
> 
> You've probably already considered and rejected this... Unisolar PVL modules
> on standing seam roofing. Solves the structure & wind problems. Goes fast if
> installed on the pans before they go on the roof. Price is pretty good per
> watt now.
> Can't beat the look. Made in USA. I think the only downside is you may not
> have enough area to place 5kW. 
> 
> I bet it's getting cold in Montana. You could stick the modules on the pans
> in a heated space somewhere. This would really cut down your time and
> exposure on the roof.
> 
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
> 
> 
> 
> --- You wrote:
>  Dear Wrenches
>  have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to upgrade it
> to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it.   The rafters are those
> (sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and shingles).
> What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and would you beef up the
> wood to lag into?
>   Thanks for all your input.
>   Chris Daum
>   Oasis Montana Inc.
>   406-777-4309
>   406-777-0830 fax
> --- end of quote ---
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
  ___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org