Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Hi Keith: That kind of thing really helps develop a trusting relationship with the customer. Most customers seem willing to accept those charges on a TM basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 1:54:40 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Folks. To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. 4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. 5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. 6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over to pull it out. 7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ on the utility bill. 8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. 9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the code/cord situation. 10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel. I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection to identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value to the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to other things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and offer something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction. When we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name gets elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about their experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities will do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers, upon completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show the system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!). Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as it has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone who might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People tend to remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It also means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Nick, et al What if you could increase the value and trust of the relationship one step further and give them an upfront price vs a TM for the extra work? They would know, before we begin the work to remedy the idea of how much it will cost and how long it would take. Another feather in your cap, to manage the relationship with the client, or prospective client. All of the 10 items listed below, can be quoted, out of your company price book, on the spot. (well, except for shopping for the refrigerator, but you could go online and look at sears.com !! with them) To me, this adds alot of common ground with your prospect and exemplifies that you're organized and been there, done that and anticipate things. Thoroughness helps get the next project and when they know what it is going to cost, before we do the work, even more comforting to them. If found in 90% + situations we can help our prospective customers with knowledge, education and what it will cost to perform the tasks needed to fulfill their needs. This also helps your business in a few tangible ways. One, you assign time to tasks. You can plan out your labor on your calendar with a reasonable margin of error for scheduling your team. Two, by providing a price on the spot, you can also have terms, like pay when completed. I equate this to going to the supermarket. You can't leave without paying. Every item is priced, before you go to the checkout counter. It should be the same with our services. TM is necessary sometimes, but it gives wiggle room for delayed payments, and now we are the bank. How much money do we end up floating each week/month year? We've kinda trained the buying public that this is ok. It's expensive to do and by offering price before service and payment at the end of the service, we greatly address our working capital and cash flow constraints. Third, if you have team members going out to do the work, aka, your journeyman and apprentices, there will be time associated to tasks and you can setup reward systems to focus the team on being productive. I call it WIIFM- what's in it for me, they all want to know what it is, so now we are upfront with them. We reward excellence and include them in the successful outcome. They are more enrolled in working with you, as this can sculpt their destiny and the choices they make. They might be less inclined to leave at 3:30 that afternoon, when if they just stay another 1.5 hours (example), they'd complete the job and be available to tackle the next job in the queue. Not only do I believe this is possible, but it is something we've done since 2003. It is effective, it works and it reshapes the culture and rituals in your organization. If you have any questions, you can contact me off list. Aloha Keith From: Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 10:12:36 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Hi Keith: That kind of thing really helps develop a trusting relationship with the customer. Most customers seem willing to accept those charges on a TM basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 1:54:40 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Folks. To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Hi Kieth: Have you really drawn up a contract to label a load center. Honestly, that should probably be included as part of the PV project. Many inspectors want to see that the panels are labelled at final inspection. I end up doing all servicing on an hourly basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Keith; I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property. If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden in the wall? Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, everything else is their problem. I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun) However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place. Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will cause a short. I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers. Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire) R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote: Folks. To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. 4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. 5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. 6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over to pull it out. 7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ on the utility bill. 8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. 9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the code/cord situation. 10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel. I recommended to my
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Nick and everyone. Yes and Yes. Our contract is a 3 part NCR form. Our flat rate price book has 82 pages of tasks for our electrical services and labeling the panel is one of them. If you, or anyone is interested in getting a sample of our book, contact me off list. From: Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:57:19 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Hi Kieth: Have you really drawn up a contract to label a load center. Honestly, that should probably be included as part of the PV project. Many inspectors want to see that the panels are labelled at final inspection. I end up doing all servicing on an hourly basis. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax:707-769-9037 From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods Keith; I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property. If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden in the wall? Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, everything else is their problem. I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun) However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place. Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will cause a short. I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers. Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire) R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote: Folks. To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center. New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing. Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available. If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary. I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer. Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise) 1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool. 2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency. 3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client. 4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues. 5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate. 6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over to pull it out. 7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ on the utility bill. 8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month. 9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped
